Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
Platon is a renowned British photographer known for his distinctive portrait photography. He has photographed many prominent figures, including political leaders, celebrities, and cultural icons. His work is characterized by its intimate and powerful portrayal of his subjects, often capturing their essence in a single, striking image. In addition, Platon is also recognized for his significant contributions to human rights activism. Through his work with various organizations, including the Human Rights Watch and the United Nations, Platon has used his photography to highlight pressing social and political issues around the globe.
So then, what happens when a photographer becomes a powerful voice for societal change? Well, in our conversation, we unravel the profound responsibilities and emotional depths that come with capturing culture through the lens. We discuss how he perceives his crucial role of a cultural provocateur and photographers in general as societal ambassadors, focusing on human connections over technical expertise. Platon also shares deeply personal anecdotes, including the emotional struggle of photographing Muhammad Ali, and emphasizes the importance of legacy and having genuine conversations in an increasingly fragmented world.
Other insights:
Platon is one of my biggest inspirations, and what better way to launch the 50th episode with a heavy-hitting, inspirational conversation with one of the best. Thank you to Platon, and thank you to all of you who listen, it is a privilege to be able to provide conversations such as these. Long may it continue.
Find Platon's work here: http://www.platonphoto.com
____________________________________________________________
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
Say hello via text message and join in the conversation!
Platon is a renowned British photographer known for his distinctive portrait photography. He has photographed many prominent figures, including political leaders, celebrities, and cultural icons. His work is characterized by its intimate and powerful portrayal of his subjects, often capturing their essence in a single, striking image. In addition, Platon is also recognized for his significant contributions to human rights activism. Through his work with various organizations, including the Human Rights Watch and the United Nations, Platon has used his photography to highlight pressing social and political issues around the globe.
So then, what happens when a photographer becomes a powerful voice for societal change? Well, in our conversation, we unravel the profound responsibilities and emotional depths that come with capturing culture through the lens. We discuss how he perceives his crucial role of a cultural provocateur and photographers in general as societal ambassadors, focusing on human connections over technical expertise. Platon also shares deeply personal anecdotes, including the emotional struggle of photographing Muhammad Ali, and emphasizes the importance of legacy and having genuine conversations in an increasingly fragmented world.
Other insights:
Platon is one of my biggest inspirations, and what better way to launch the 50th episode with a heavy-hitting, inspirational conversation with one of the best. Thank you to Platon, and thank you to all of you who listen, it is a privilege to be able to provide conversations such as these. Long may it continue.
Find Platon's work here: http://www.platonphoto.com
____________________________________________________________
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
discount code: moodpdcst.23
My FREE eBook:
www.form.jotform.com/240303428580046
My FREE Lighting Tutorial:
www.mattjacobphotography.com/free-tutorial-sign-up
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG @mattyj_ay | X @mattyj_ay | YouTube @mattyj_ay | TikTok @mattyj_ay
I'm a cultural provocateur. I like to hold up pictures to society like a mirror. Do you think that's?
Speaker 2:the difference, then, between good photography and great photography.
Speaker 1:Photographing your shopkeepers can be a beautiful thing. It doesn't have to be a celebrity or a world leader. Humanity is the thing that drives us. We didn't cover this bit in the film because it's just too difficult. I started to cry and I was trying to wipe my eyes so that I could take pictures, but I couldn't do it. I proved it that a picture of someone that no one's ever heard of can become historic if it's a good picture. I walked away, a changed person after that shoot.
Speaker 2:Do you think about legacy? Are you just in the moment trying to help as many people as you can?
Speaker 1:We are needed to show what's happening now in society. Photographers are the ambassadors of our time. I would send a message out to all photographers who are listening that Platon, what a privilege and honor to have you on the Mood Podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for taking the time to join me today.
Speaker 1:It's great to be here, man, let's, let's have a proper conversation, which is something that's very important these days to have proper conversations yeah, actually the.
Speaker 2:The tagline for this podcast is the art of conversation, one frame at a time and the the way. The way I started. This was not photography first, it was more just conversing with people in a discourse, which I think is we're going to get onto this a little bit later. But combining that with the storytelling techniques of images and photography, I think is certainly the conversation side is becoming a bit of a lost art. So let's kick off. I wanted to kind of give the floor to you. I mean, I'm curious. I have so many questions. I've been following your amazing work for many years, but what do people clicking on this podcast expect to kind of get out of this conversation today? But, more importantly, what would you like them to understand about you, your photography, your message and your art?
Speaker 1:Ah, it's a big question and deserves a big answer. As Noel Gallagher once said Um, you know, it's uh. I think we're going through something in history that is uh, that is very, very significant. There are very powerful forces pulling us all apart right now and they have invested interests in us becoming strangers from each other. Of course, it's natural for us to be suspicious of each other, but I believe so much in the human condition and in breaking down barriers and in people building bridges together.
Speaker 1:And when I started out as a photographer, two things drove me First, to learn my craft and second, to find those deep human connections with people. And over the years I was thinking about this the other day over the years, lots of people in the photography world have asked me about the photography side, and if any of you have heard me speak, I normally disregard the photography, and I do that on purpose. Let me get this straight I care deeply about my craft. I'm a craftsman. Straight, I care deeply about my craft. I'm a craftsman. I spent probably a third of my life in the dark room. Um, I know everything I need to know about the technical side of what I do. The reason I don't talk about it. That much is because for a long time I didn't want that to be a distraction from something that's much more important than F stops and shutter speeds and skin tones and contrast and color, um and composition. Even I wanted to focus on the human condition. How to uh, how to navigate that, how to navigate that, how to become less judgmental and more curious about each other and how to challenge our own ideals, our own values in life all the time. I think that's really important to be brave with yourself first, and if you judge anybody else, you have to have judged yourself first. If you come out perfect, then you're in great shape to judge someone else, and if you haven't come out perfect, then I would say just keep quiet and keep listening. So that's what I thought was more important than F stops and that's why I purposely, you could say, mislead people in a cheeky way, but when I say I'm not really a photographer, I don't really find that bit interesting.
Speaker 1:Believe me, anyone who works with me in my team or has worked with me in collaborative ways over the years, they know the camera's picked up, the set goes quiet. The you know the cameras picked up, the set goes quiet. We're all striving for a very high level of concentration and no one screws up. So it's a military operation, but it's like any athlete. You know, you wouldn't ask, um Serena Williams how she holds her racket slightly to the left or slightly to the right, or you know, um, you would. You wouldn't ask those kinds of questions. You would be more interested in her mindset and how she deals with the mentality of becoming a champion.
Speaker 1:So, um, I mean, I think, like with Muhammad Ali, who, who I had the great privilege to work with, you know, what was interesting about him was the psychology of the fight. Yeah, of course, he trained hard and he was so fast and his legs were amazing, the way he danced, but what made him really special when he was fighting was his mentality, and so that's what I always try. That's what I'm trying to do when I say don't ask me about F-stops because I'm not interested in it. Believe me, I've mastered that. But any professional needs to be liberated from their technique so that you could spend all your time on observation. That's where I'm at.
Speaker 2:Do you think that's the difference, then, between good photography and great photography?
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, everyone's a photographer now. So some of the most important pictures in history now are not by photographers, are by everyday people. And I think one of the first big events that happened with was 9-11, because, you know, the people were there and they were all covering it. It was one of the first times people were covering on their mobile devices on such a historically important event. Um, and I think now Andy Warhol has proven himself right again and again and again with his 15 minutes of fame statement. You could say that's the motto of our time.
Speaker 1:So, look, I think sometimes a picture captures the hearts and minds of the people and sometimes it sums up something in history and it's quite hard to quantify why it does that. Some songs do that, some movies do that. I mean creative people. Our job is to use our own feelings and to describe how we feel living in these times. And if we're honest enough with ourselves and we produce something that's really authentic, it just could be that that creative thing also inspires other people because they also see themselves in that story.
Speaker 1:It's sort of like holding a mirror up to society. And you know when people have criticized, uh, my work because I photographed someone they don't like. I mean, I think they make a huge mistake that to photograph someone is some kind of promotion. Uh, I don't live in the world of promotion. I think it's very important that we cure our amnesia and we remember that some of these tyrants lived here and did terrible things to people and I think we need to be brave and face them and look at these people's spirits and say, well, we've just got to make sure we don't follow blindly more leaders the way we did in the past. So I I I'm a cultural provocateur. I like to hold up pictures to society like a mirror.
Speaker 1:If people find that person offensive, then it's well. Then they find society offensive because that person was very influential, unfortunately, and they did a lot of damage. Then we all have to turn around and have a healthy, respectful debate about what is right, what is wrong, who should we really follow? What really makes a great leader? And let's look at our leaders as well as ourselves as followers and say are we all on the right track?
Speaker 1:And I think everyone's got so frightened to question anything these days and I think we're in great danger of brushing the healthy debate to the side and actually willingly give up democracy, willingly give up democracy. That's what I think. I think the democracy is not winning the debate. Democracy is having the debate and that debate is so important to hear each other to be curious to say I know what I think, but tell me what you think. And that takes a bit of courage if it's someone you fundamentally disagree with. But I think it's really important to know how the other side think they might challenge your ideals. And if they do, maybe that's a good thing. Maybe your ideals need challenging or they might help you solidify your ideas. Either way, it's good to be exposed to different ways of thinking.
Speaker 2:That's the beauty in life, right Diversity. And you talk about being a cultural provocateur. I think that's such a good not label, but good kind of evocative way of describing what you do and what we should all aspire to do, because you're provoking conversation and that can never be a bad thing. But it's now. These days it's very difficult, like you said, to have an honest, open discourse where you can respect someone else's point of view and it's it's just extreme versus extreme. I hate you because you're in that box, whereas 99% of the population are somewhere within those extremes.
Speaker 2:Right, as a photographer, I think it's an underrated and not talked about enough point where the photography is a tool and it's a mindset we're able to expose. If you're taking a photo of many of the world leaders and controversial world leaders that you have done, then surely sparking a conversation and, you know, exposing this person or at least putting them in the spotlight, so we can have a conversation, an honest conversation and, like you said, maybe maybe change someone's mind or maybe reinforce what you believed in, maybe we can come together and compromise a little bit, and that is really the essence of storytelling of a voice. As a photographer, you know you have a style and a voice and I'm interested to find out how you cultivated that voice. You know, did you always have an interest in these types of stories?
Speaker 2:I know some of it came from your commercial work to begin with, and maybe you evolved through that, but was this something from an early age that you wanted to kind of get your voice out there in these types of ways?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've always had a healthy disregard for power. I'm immune to power. I'm not immune to threats and physical damage, but I am immune to the intimidation side of power, always have been um and, and that allows me to have different kind of interactions with people. Martin luther king once said beware of the illusion of supremacy, and that always stuck in my brain. I always thought that's very interesting, because supremacy is an illusion.
Speaker 1:There is no such thing as a supreme person or someone is somehow higher on a level in society than someone else. I mean, I know people may hold great responsibility, um, and that is something to uh admire. But a nurse holds great responsibility. She's got someone's life in her hands. A doctor is the same. I mean, an electrician does, because if they get the wiring wrong, your house is going to burn down. All of us hold great responsibility. If you have a family, you're responsible for your children. There's no greater responsibility than seeing a mother give birth. I mean, it's just an extraordinary thing. So I don't buy that someone walks in the room and we're all supposed to bow down to them. That doesn't mean I'm not respectful. I'm always respectful, but I'm respectful to everybody. So someone walks in the room after an insane power buildup. I see it for what it is. It's a trick, it's a game. They must be scared of me if they're trying really, really hard to bring me down to a different level.
Speaker 1:I'm nothing. I've got no power at all. I've got no corporation behind me. I've got no country or government backing me. I'm a complete independent thinker and I've chosen the path of independence.
Speaker 1:All my life I have collaborated with big corporations and powerful people, but I was never working for them, and that was always clear in my brain. I was never working for them. I may have worked with them and this goes with great magazines or great magazine editors. I've been very privileged to work with them, but never for them. The only people I said to myself I'm working for you are human rights defenders, and that is I'm very proud to do that. I have no problems with that. In fact, that is the greatest privilege on earth to help someone else's cause, when they're trying to do something good for humanity. So I'll work for them. I'm actually their servant and I'm very proud to say that. But when it comes to working for anyone else, that's just a non-starter and I've always had that.
Speaker 1:But the strange thing is that that empowers me to have different types of conversations with people with extreme power in their hands, and they know it.
Speaker 1:So they in many ways feel liberated spending time with me, because they know that they can finally be authentic with someone, because it's not going to work on me. So it allows me to have the most amazing conversations with people about life, and I always think, if I'm lucky enough to be in the room with these people who do drive change in history, then it's my job to learn something from this and not miss it, miss it. So, as well as getting an important picture, as well as checking all the boxes that I have to check, I also have to say learn something from this man, learn something from this. You're in the presence of someone who's extremely influential good or bad, so just make sure that your powers of observation go through the roof and you are watching and listening and absorbing everything you can. So you take away all those lessons. And if I look at all the people I've spent time with over the years, I mean I've learned some amazing things from all these people.
Speaker 2:Before I jump on what, what is the? Can you give me an example of some?
Speaker 1:you know fascinating stories or lessons that you've learned from these people. I've been told it's one of the last shoots he did, maybe the last big shoot. He may have done one after mine, I'm not sure, but he had essentially lost control of his once most powerful hands and fists and arms because of Parkinson's, and when he walked in the room he didn't walk, he shuffled and he was this giant figure of a man still, or even, though his body was now twisted and hunched over. But I felt the presence of this man walk in the room. It's one of those rare things. He's in the room and you know it. Even if your eyes closed, you feel the atmosphere shift. Feel the atmosphere shift.
Speaker 1:So I draped an American flag over his shoulders and something happened. His wife was watching just slightly to the side of my white background that I set up in his living room and he started lifting his hands up very slowly and they were shaking and trembling and he had this sort of almost demonic defiant look in his eyes and I realized he's holding his hands up in that classic defiant boxing pose for my camera. And when you see the picture that I took while his wife started crying because she had not seen him be able to do this in a long time. The picture looks the way he wanted it to look. He wanted me to capture his defiance that had made him so famous around the world. But if you were in the room you would have felt. The sacrifice that took His whole body was just. All the energy was consumed into just his hands, holding them above his frayed muscles. And, um, at the end of it he dropped as if he was just exhausted and I was very emotional.
Speaker 1:As I say, his wife was emotional. So I found myself saying Muhammad, you are the greatest, teach me to be great. How can my generation be as great as your generation had to be during the civil rights era? And he couldn't speak very well because of Parkinson's. So he gestured to me to come close to him and he mumbled and whispered in my ear. And he said he gestured to me to come close to him and he mumbled and whispered in my ear and he said I have a confession to make. So I said what is it? And he said I wasn't as great as I said.
Speaker 2:I was, I freaked out man.
Speaker 1:Holy shit, that's the biggest confession I've ever heard in my life. The whole world knows you as Ali the greatest. But then his eyes tensed again. He would do this. He's like his eyes tense up when he stares at you, gives you a hard sort of someone like Paddington Bear stare and he says you misunderstand me. And he went on to sort of eventually he said along the lines I'll tell you what was great. It wasn't me, it was that people saw themselves in my struggle. It wasn't me, it was that people saw themselves in my struggle. He said people saw themselves in my story. And then he turned it to me and now I get the great privilege to share it with you and all your listeners and say if you can get people to see themselves in the story that you put forward, then you achieve greatness. But that greatness is never you personally, it's something much bigger called bridge building. I walked away a changed person after that shoot because I realized that if you take a story, realized that if you take a story, no matter how much it means to you, if you're not thinking about people recognizing themselves in that story, they're never going to listen. So now I understand how to tell stories, particularly about human rights and civil rights around the world, about human rights and civil rights around the world.
Speaker 1:So many organizations have come to me and my foundation, the People's Portfolio, with a problem. We have all this data, we have all this research, but no one's interested. The media aren't interested. No one seems to engage in these horrific stories of abuse of people's lives and rights. Can we capture people's hearts with the pictures that I would take? And the way to do that is to show people take the same data, but to stop thinking about people as victims. And they have been victimized. So many of the people have been fundamentally victimized by life's trials and they have been oppressed beyond belief and many of my friends have lost their lives. But there's something else there that the media often leaves out that these people are also victors, that they are extremely courageous and they show extraordinary compassion for others, even though they themselves have been so hurt that maybe they've been robbed of everything, and they still think of others and they do whatever they can with what little they have to drive positive change. That's a leader, that's a proper hero to me. So I will photograph them the way I photograph a major Hollywood celebrity on the cover of a magazine like Time Magazine or Rolling Stone. Why the hell can't we have a new set of cultural heroes who do something really great in society? And if I offer a story of showing them as a leader, as an inspirational person, a wonderful person, despite the odds that they've been through, that's a story we all like. That's a story people are drawn to, and I can give you a perfect case study of how that works.
Speaker 1:I've just worked on a book that took 15 years to make. It's called the Defenders, which is a superhero title, but the people in my book are not superheroes, they're ordinary people but they do extraordinary things and they're all defenders of human rights. So I put this book out, showing them in the way I just described, and with this the book was launched just two weeks ago. I had extraordinary press. They were all interested in it. I was told for years the press don't want to know about human rights. It doesn't sell, it doesn't get clicks. No one wants to feel guilty, no one wants to feel depressed. But this book, honestly, I've had blanket coverage and I'm very privileged to have had that, but the book sold out in 10 days. I haven't even seen it in a shop yet, and I've very privileged to have had that, but the book sold out in 10 days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I need to get my hands on it, please. I haven't even seen it in a shop yet and I got a message this morning that the book sold out. Now that's Congratulations. I heard also that it went to number one on the Amazon category for celebrity books, and there's not one celebrity in this book, man. It just goes to show.
Speaker 1:Muhammad Ali was right Offer a story that people are drawn to because they see themselves in it, they see their lives engaging with it. They find it inspiring. It's the same data as the horrors of the world. The numbers are the same. The story is fundamentally changed and the people in my pictures have a stake in the picture. It's a collaboration.
Speaker 1:They're stakeholders in their own story and they sit on this apple box that I have that all the world leaders sit on. It's just a simple white box, all scratched up, painted years ago in white. Now it's all gray and dirty, but everyone still sits on it. And if you're a human rights defender and you sit on the same box as all the Hollywood movie stars, but more importantly, perhaps the person who was holding political power, who did you wrong? Perhaps the person that ordered that you should be put in jail for 20 years as a political prisoner. Um, you get to sit on the same box. That's power, that's empowerment, and you can see it on their faces. Something magical comes alive in front of my camera, and that that is a great privilege, great privilege.
Speaker 2:Wow, a lot to unpack there and certainly some extremely moving stories, and I'm sure you could give us some millions of stories just like that.
Speaker 2:One thing that seems to ride along throughout all of your images and actually I'm more interested in your civil rights projects and those photos of incredible photos, moving photos of, I want to say, real people, but you know what I mean like those people that the voiceless, as you say, what seems to ride along with all of that is the word humanity, and I'm not sure if you would kind of label that in a lot of your work, but I want to know how you see humanity at the moment and you kind of standing, not standing alone, but seem to be this message giver, this storyteller, this provider of power to the voiceless in your images.
Speaker 2:There doesn't seem to be many photographers doing that kind of work, right, and that there really should be, or there might be, but they don't have the exposure that maybe they should. How do you see photography and your message and the voices that we should try and emanate through our work? How do you see that being involved with a lack of interconnectedness in humanity today, as we talk, you know 24th of May 2024, where the world is probably as divided as ever. We don't know what truth really is anymore. We're facing numerous existential threats. Where do you fit into that, and where should we, as photographers and artists, try and aspire to fit into?
Speaker 1:I've heard there's a lot of talk about AI at the moment and it's the latest buzz thing. Everyone loves a buzzword During the pandemic it was. Everyone was talking about NFTs, but now it's all switched to AI.
Speaker 2:You know, interesting, interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, I know a lot of the guys who are champions of this technology. A lot of people say you know, our jobs are all going to disappear because of ai. Uh, I fundamentally disagree. I think uh uh, a in ai stands for artificial. Let's not forget that, and my whole life has been dedicated to the real, the authentic, a true moment. It's never the whole truth. One of my pictures is one 500th of a second. That's nothing. By the time I've said what I'm just saying right now, how many 500ths of a second have gone by? So it's just, but it is. If I get it right, it's a true moment.
Speaker 1:And I think all this talk about AI is actually adding to the value of authentic human connections, of authentic human connections, and the conversation will start to shift very soon, not to wow, that's AI. How cool is that. It's going to shift to wow, that was a real moment. I heard that actually happened. That's cool. That's good for us, because we will soon realize how important it is to share a true moment. You know to go out with someone that you really care for and you're having a drink together and you put down your bloody phone for a minute and you just talk to each other and you just say we're together, we're sharing a moment, and if something happens to one of us tomorrow, this is the last moment we have, and how beautiful is that.
Speaker 2:So let's make the most of this moment and the way that most people live today by their phones, by social media, including many, many photographers, right, many artists that you know. That is the way society is constructed right now, to this day. How do we, as storytellers like true, authentic storytellers like yourself, how do we aspire to be that and kind of cut through the shit, cut through the noise and punctuate what really matters, and how do we help society get back to?
Speaker 1:that authenticity Because the human condition eventually always corrects itself. Often we go horribly wrong, it's too late, we did a lot of damage, but in the end we correct ourselves, because to survive means we have to correct ourselves. And one thing that is important about the human condition is this extraordinary will to survive, and I've seen it in people who. It's a miracle that they survived what they went through, either physically or emotionally. It's a miracle that they survived what they went through either physically or emotionally. It's a miracle I what they go through. I could never survive that with some of the things I've heard, but they did survive. There's um, so I have.
Speaker 1:I'm a I wouldn't say I'm a reckless optimist, because I've seen too much damage done to people to just be a blind optimist. But I'm not a pessimist either. I would say I'm a positive realist that I know, now that the world is so complicated, there are no political leaders that I personally say oh, you're great, you're my guy or you're my lady and that's it. You know, I know how complicated it is. Anyone who gets to hold political power has made many deals with the devil by the time they get there. It's a fact. That's how the game works. So, you know, let's let's not be naive about how political power works or even corporate power. It's all in the same. It's all in the same racket as far as I'm concerned. But I am an optimist when it comes to the survival of the human condition. Shown me that personally kindness, strength, determination, resilience, tenderness in times when you're so frightened, um, and when you, when you've seen that and shared that with people, it makes you think, my goodness me, if they can do that, I can do amazing things. Man can do amazing things. Man, I've got so much I can, I can, I can put to work, you know, um, so, um, yeah, that's how I feel, you know, I, I, I feel that eventually we correct ourselves, and you know we're.
Speaker 1:You could say that process has already started, because you're seeing a lot of anxiety in society, seeing a lot, particularly with young people, and that is the human condition talking to us in society, saying there's something not right about this path and we need to make a correction. We need to recalibrate here. We're all feeling a little lonely. We're all exhausted of feeling rage about things, that about people we don't even know. We're all tired of being suspicious about each other. We miss going out and enjoying the moment and not having to think about recording the moment for our friends. You know so, um, you know I, even as a photographer, you'll understand this.
Speaker 1:You know when you're in these situations, if you, if you focus too much on the camera, you don't experience it, and if you focus too much on the experience, you don't capture it. Uh, I have now learned that I will have an experience because I'm there to capture it. So they're intermingled. I think young people are doing the same thing to some extent, but I think the balance is off and people are feeling it. They want to have the moment, they want to just feel that joy, especially young people. My kids are teenagers now and they're beautiful kids. Their friends are great friends. They want joy and they're going to have it. Friends are great friends. You know they want joy and they're going to have it. They're going to get it. That's how it works. You respond to the previous generation and I'm a great optimist when it comes to the human condition.
Speaker 2:Well, it's great to hear. I think people seek out joy and some have done at least and maybe the tides are turning. Personally, I don't see that quite yet. Maybe I'm not as much of a positive realist as you are, but I feel like we live in two different worlds. You have the digital world and then you have the real world, and that's why I think real photography, especially portraits with people and real stories to tell and what I hope to try and do all the time as well, are just so powerful because and you mentioned the word lonely you mentioned, you know, trying to get a message out there, but a lot of people just don't care. I'm more interested as to why people don't care, and I think you know, when you recognize yourself in that story and you get this little, you pulse that allows your message to breathe, you find the people are less lonely because they connect with well you know strangers in an image. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:you. You said something interesting. People don't care? Uh, of course you're not. We are not entitled to their attention. We're not entitled to it. We have to earn it. We have to earn trust and we have to earn attention. And if you're dealing with something that is, you know you're going to have to work a lot harder. Obviously, if you're talking about celebrity and pop, you don't have to work very hard to get the attention because there's already a system built in that that drives instant social currency. But if it's something that perhaps you're introducing a story that no one's heard about, or you're introducing a person that no one's heard about, well, you know you're going to have to work extra hard to gain attention.
Speaker 1:And I put this out as a challenge to all your listeners who are photographers that you are all needed right now. It's not a question of you feeling, you know, beaten down, or you might feel you know I'm not breaking through. Why aren't people liking my work through? Why aren't people liking my work? You have to raise the bar and think of yourselves as ambassadors of your time and commit your life to those pictures. And if you are committed enough, those pictures start to mean something to you. And if they mean something to you. I guarantee they'll mean something to somebody else. I mean, it's a normal conversation I'll have with someone who sits for me where I will say look, right now you will never have someone with you that is as interested in your humanity as I am right now and I'm all in man in your humanity as I am right now and I'm all in man, I'm all in and together. If you're going to join me, we are going to make history together and I'm going to do it. But I need you to join me. I need two of us. This is a collaboration and if you're going to join me in it, then I'm all in. Let's rock this out and let's do something that really means something to us, and then it might just mean something to other people, and that becomes a very powerful moment, especially if it's someone who is not well known, who has been ignored in society, who has something important to say.
Speaker 1:I've actually proved my point many a time that some of those pictures are the most important pictures of my life. Um, because I was invested in my subject matter, was also invested and uh and this is what I say to everybody that no one's going to give it to you. You've got to, you've got to push yourself to such a high place that, uh, that magical, mystical thing just happens. I can't really articulate it because it's a visual thing. You know it when you see it. I don't always pull it off in my pictures, but when I know it's a good picture, it lasts forever and everyone sees something in it, whether they're a fan of that person or they hate that person. They all kind of say, oh yeah, that's them. Uh, then it's a good picture.
Speaker 1:But I would send a message out to all photographers who are listening that you are so needed right now and there is no time to to feel sorry for yourselves. That's wasted energy. If you have a talent, put it to work, mobilize it. It's needed. We are needed to show what's happening now in society. We are needed to be storytellers, to share ideas, and we are never.
Speaker 1:You know, when I started out in human rights, there's this phrase and I have used it giving a voice to the voiceless. I have learned, actually, that I don't agree with that. There's no such thing as us giving a voice to anybody, People who are downtrodden in society. They have a voice. They have an amazing, extraordinary, eloquent, graceful voice. It's just been ignored. So our job is not to give them a voice, but to amplify their voice, offer them an enhanced platform of leadership with our toolkit, with our knowledge, with our platforms. And if you can do that, then that's a beautiful thing to be part of. I mean, I'm part of a movement now. That is just such a beautiful thing to be part of the friends I have across the world who share ideals with me, who share values with me. We're all in this together and, uh, it's it. It feels so good to be alive. You know, it's a great privilege.
Speaker 2:Good for you. What responsibility comes with that? As you grow and you, you have more impact. Certainly not power, but you know. You talked about giving the voice as a voice, and I totally agree with you. We're just facilitators, right. You're just giving them a tool in order to get that voice out there?
Speaker 2:What responsibility? Certainly in terms of ethics and objectivity, because you can get a story out there but it may be tarnished by some kind of subjectivity or some kind of opinion. Right, you talked about being a cultural provocateur and this kind of maze of you know, getting a story out there, letting the subject tell the story, but also provoking conversation and giving maybe a little bit of twist to that story. Is there a responsibility to do that? And what is the ethical dilemma? If there is anything?
Speaker 1:That's a really important question. Responsibility, earning trust, is just first base, and that's a huge thing. Someone's been hurt and they've got a story to tell. Maybe all they've got is their story, they've got nothing else. Maybe all they've got is their identity, that's all. They've got, nothing else to share. And if they share that with you, you don't walk away saying, ok, great, I got the scoop, I got the shot.
Speaker 1:That's not the victory. The victory is going away with that material, with a huge amount of responsibility on your shoulders, because if you earn someone's trust by saying I will, uh, help amplify your story, um, and I will do it in a way that will make you proud, which is what they want, and I will do it in a way that I I believe in my heart uh, sets the right tone after having met you, then they might say I trust you. Wow, man. If they say I trust you, that's mega, that's it, that's mega. And to hand that over to a group of people in the media and just say, there it is, rock it out, just make sure my name's on it, so it's nice, big credit. And just say, there it is, rock it out, just make sure my name's on it, so it's nice big credit. I mean, that is like that is really. That breaks every rule in the book, man. So and I've learned this from experience, you know, I didn't start out knowing this stuff, so a lot of the times I would do something and and then I would hand it over thinking I've done a great job. And then I see it placed in a different context. There's a twist to it and it changed what I felt on the day and I would have to go back to my subjects and I would have to say I'm really sorry, I, I didn't write the piece that accompanied it and I and I'm uh, I didn't do that bit, but they give me this look of disappointment and that's like that's the worst thing to live with, cause I know now that I needed to be better. And if the if they this, this amazing social currency called trust, which is the biggest thing right now, trust in everything, um, I think that is so important that we honor that and we carry that responsibility. So now it's a whole different story. Now I want if, if there's an accompanying piece, I'm reading it or I wrote it now, uh, and then if it's being placed on a platform, uh, it's either a platform of someone that has guaranteed to me it's going to be respectful, or it's my platform and I'm going to create it. To me it's going to be respectful, or it's my platform and I'm going to create it. Um, so I'm taking control, uh, of the narrative as best I can, so that the whole story goes all the way to a perfect, smooth landing, and that's really important. That's that's so important to me and, of course, that's that course.
Speaker 1:That takes a lot more work. Orson Welles once said you have to build your own ladder and then you can climb up it, and he was so right. You have to build your own ladder because someone else's ladder is not your ladder and you want to be a big deal. Then build your own ladder. It's a lot harder, man, it's a lot harder, but it means that it's your platform and if someone trusts you, then you can make those guarantees. It takes 10 times as long. I should have been where I am 15 years ago, but it is what it is and I'm actually better now. I'm kind of glad I wasn't here 15 years ago because I may have screwed it up. I'm better now. I know the game now, so if I'm here late. At least I've got a few years of experience under my belt and I'm more tempered and I'm more aware of the terrain around me, and I think that's become really useful for my work in human rights.
Speaker 2:What's the legacy, then, that you're looking to build and leave behind, if not already done, but if you're in a position now where you are, you know, gaining a sense of fulfillment that you may not have had 10, 15 years ago, do you think about legacy? Do you think about, or are you just in the moment, trying to help as many people as you can, trying to spread as many messages? Or are you thinking about okay, I want to leave this behind.
Speaker 1:Um, as you eloquently said, we are. We are facing many challenges right now and there are very powerful forces, as I said at the beginning, pulling us apart. So, while I still have some things to say and I still have some creative energy left in me, I think it's really important to inspire the next generation of photographers and storytellers, to inspire the next generation of photographers and storytellers, which is why I wanted to talk to you today, because I, I, I. There are so many people, as you said, really talented, creative people who might be listening to this, who are waiting for something. They're waiting for a spark.
Speaker 1:Um, I'll tell you a story about George Lois. I don't know if you know who George Lois is. He was my hero, my mentor, my teacher. I was very, very close to him. He is the most famous creative director in America. He did all the famous 1960s Esquire covers. He kind of invented MTV. He launched Tommy Hilfiger. He was an advertising genius but, more importantly, mad Men was based on him. Although he had none of the social moral lapses that Don Draper had, he cared deeply about women's rights. He cared deeply about civil rights, racial equality. I mean, this guy was a social champion. He was Bobby Kennedy's campaign manager. I could go on and on.
Speaker 1:Anyway, george used to do these talks years ago and I used to go with him to some of them and I'd carry his his papers and he was getting old by then so I would help him in and out of the taxi and stuff and I just wanted to be around him. We were friends. So I escorted him to one talk and he was talking to a young group of creative directors, art directors and he told this story that he was once making a presentation in the 1960s and he was in a board room to a big company and he he came up with this crazy idea for their new ad campaign. And you got a picture of the room. It's a very elegant room on the 33rd floor of a skyscraper in new york. There's tea and coffee and you and little snacks laid out. Everyone's sitting there in their suits, mostly men, but not all men.
Speaker 1:George presents his campaign. They all turn to the CEO, who scratches his chin and he says well, mr Lois, it's very nice this presentation, but have you got any other options? Because this is a bit racy for us, it's a bit much, it's a bit edgy. We want something a bit more conservative. And George says no, no, no, no, this is it. This is going to make you millions of dollars. It's going to be transformative for your company. It's going to blow up. You have to do this. There is no backup. And they said well, would you mind going away and coming back with some other solutions, Because we really are not sure about this.
Speaker 1:George then says I believe so much in this campaign that if you don't accept it, I am going to open the window to my left and I'm going to climb out the window and I'm going to jump out. They all laugh. George goes over to the window to my left and I'm going to climb out the window and jump out. They all laugh. George goes over to the window, opens up the window, climbs out onto the ledge. People start screaming in the room. One of the ladies faints, two men rush over the coffee's knocked over the tea chairs. They grab hold of his legs and he's he's going to jump. They they say please, mr Lois, we'll take the campaign, just come inside, for goodness sake. They drag him in, put the room kind of back. Everyone's sweating and of course, the campaign is huge. It makes them millions of dollars. It does exactly what he said it would, and more so.
Speaker 1:This is the story George tells to this group and a young, young woman puts her hand up at the back of the room. She says George, can I ask you a question? He says sure. She says George, can I ask you a question? He says sure. She says I'm a young creative director. She said I'm just starting out. We're all very impressed by your persuasive powers and your bravado in those days and what you just told us about threatening to jump off a ledge. She said that's heroic, your belief in your work. But she said, mr Lois, times have changed. We can't do that anymore. She said if I behaved like that with any of my future clients, I'm sure I would never have a job for the rest of my life. She said can you give us some advice? Or give me some advice about navigating a more conservative world? Or give me some advice about navigating a more conservative world? And he looked at her and he said my dear, you just explained perfectly why you will never be great. The whole room was like oh man.
Speaker 1:And on the way home in the taxi I said to him George, that was a little harsh man, like she's just dying out. You supposed to give her encouragement. You're supposed to cheer her along, be a champion with pom poms and stuff. You know like she needs your encouragement. And he said listen to me, you arsehole Cause he was like that was for a very tough guy.
Speaker 1:He said listen to me, it was never easy to be brave. He said the times when I did that, you've got to look at the social situation we were dealing with. If you went into the south, black people weren't even allowed to ride on the same bus as white people. He said, um, women had the rights women had in those days compared with where we are now and we've still got a long way to go. He said said we're talking about another world. He said there was so much prejudice in society. He said it was never easy to stand up for your beliefs. He said it wasn't easy then. It's not easy now. He says what you need is courage. And again that was one of those moments he was actually doing her a favor. He was actually saying you don't understand what you're up against. You're going to have to have courage to move forward. And it does take extreme courage at moments of vulnerability and I've had to push myself all the time to push myself all the time.
Speaker 1:There's been so many moments where I felt inadequate. I felt an imposter, I felt I didn't have it. Today as, as you said, you know, before we started we were having a quick chat and you were saying you noticed, in my um there was Netflix film about my work and before one of my subjects and it was Colin Powell walked in the room. I seemed really stressed man. I was so stressed and every time I pick up a camera before the person walks in the room, it's dark, lonely, a horrible, isolating place to be Cause, even if I have an amazing team around me and I have the best team around me they're incredible, talented people who are so committed to our work as a group but, uh, at that moment I feel so lonely because it's that moment. It's it's up to me. There are other moments it's up to other members of the team, but we all have our moments when you've got to deliver, if you're going to push your talent out of your comfort zone and try to reach that North Star of George Lois said greatness.
Speaker 1:They don't admit secretly that those moments are very, very vulnerable moments, but there's something magical about feeling vulnerable. It's not weak. It just means you're alive, you're committed, you know you care deeply, you're committed, you care deeply. I mean it's a good thing. I do feel lonely and frightened and vulnerable because it's evidence that I care a lot and I care that I nail it. And my subject feels that commitment and I'm now honest about it. I'm not ashamed to say I'm nervous. I'm not nervous, as I say, of their power. I'm nervous of my talent. Am I going to get it? That's what I'm nervous of. Am I going to be at my best to capture that fleeting moment? And sometimes I don't and I'm haunted by it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that plays into your legacy, right? You care so much to get you know, the youngsters these days call them bangers.
Speaker 2:But you know, a photo that is not perfect, but it's as perfect as you can get in that moment and be able to leave a lasting impact through those images. I think to be able to educate, to be able to inspire future photographers by doing that and showing your vulnerability at the same time. So what I talked to you about off air just before we start is, like you know, you being one of my biggest inspirations a little bit apprehensive. Just what the fuck am I going to talk to him?
Speaker 1:about.
Speaker 2:I've got so many things you know and to see you, to see you know someone who's so amazing in my eyes with what he does and the message he spreads, kind of visibly like that as well. Like you know, I pictured myself before a shoot. I'm exactly the same right, because we can. I think that's super important for certainly youngsters and the next generation. Like it may not be photography, it could be anything, but if you care about it so much, then it's going to be important to you and to likely other people.
Speaker 1:I had this exact same conversation with two former secretaries of state, both game changers, both women. Madeleine Albright, the late, great Madeleine Albright, the first woman to be secretary of state in America. She was my friend and the picture I took of her uh became her favorite picture and her family, even when they invited me to her funeral. I was brought to tears when I saw that her family had my picture at her memorial service. As I was taking that picture, I asked her about her facing her barriers the first woman to be Secretary of State in America. She said for years she would be in a boardroom type situation, surrounded by men. She was the only woman there, woman there and there would be so many situations where the leader of the team would say this is long before she was a powerful politician. Someone would say has anyone got any ideas? She had the perfect idea but didn't have the courage to say it. And then the man next to her puts up his hand and he says I've got an idea and it's the same idea she had. He dares to say it and of course everyone pats him on the back, gives him a round of applause Brilliant, he'll get the promotion. So I said to her when she told me this and I said well, what made you change then? Because you must have changed. I mean, you became such a powerful force in politics At one point you could say you were the most powerful woman in the world and she said rage, rage and shame of myself that I wasn't pushing myself out of this comfort zone. She said it was rage that I kept backing away from the edge. And she said one day I was so angry at myself that I couldn't live with that sensation, and it just pushed me enough to raise my hand and say I've got an idea. And of course, oh my God, this woman, she's, she's got the idea. We should listen to her again. And one thing led to another, and that was the path. So, and then I had a similar conversation with Condoleezza Rice, who was on the other side of the political aisle and yet she was taught by Madeleine Albright's father and they and Madeleine Albright and Condoleezza Rice both respected each other. So Condoleezza Rice is the first woman of color to be Secretary of State.
Speaker 1:So I asked her about this idea of being comfortable and anxious. She looked at me and she said there's a lot of talk these days about being comfortable in the workplace. She said I don't like that word comfortable, that's for your sofa, she said. When I look back at all those moments in my life when I pushed myself and I broke a barrier and I did something that was important, she said, believe me, I was not comfortable. Believe me, I was not comfortable.
Speaker 1:There's nothing comfortable about that magical place where you are living in the danger zone of yourself, but that is where you change things. Athletes will know this and you'll know this. Who, who's put in this, uh, pushes themselves into a high level of emotional and intellectual activity can also be physical activity too. There's I was thinking about this the other day. How does this work? You've got this spectrum of.
Speaker 1:It's like a curve, and most of us live in, you know, somewhere in the middle of that curve, day in, day out. But there's, and you might think you've got, you've pushed yourself some days to the edge of that curve, all right, but there's a secret reserve in the human condition that you're not supposed to know about. No one tells you that that's there, actually, you only discover it when something really scary happens. Maybe it's, as you could call it, the survival zone. Something kicks in and your will to survive reminds you or helps you discover that there's this hidden reserve of emotional energy, physical energy, intellectual energy and something magical thrown in there for good measure.
Speaker 1:That's where I live all the time and that is a really hard thing to do. But you can't even see it. It's not advertised in your curve. You have to discover it. Some people discover it when something awful happens to them. You know, traumatized or PTSD Things happen to you or you're something, or sometimes extreme joy.
Speaker 1:You discover something there. It's an extreme, it's like 200% alive. It's not 100%, it's 200%. And, as I say, it's like 200% alive, it's not 100%, it's 200%. And, as I say, it's hidden. Everyone has this thing, everyone.
Speaker 1:It's a hidden reserve and I would encourage everybody who's listening today to just when it's quiet and there's no one else around look at yourself in the mirror and see if you can imagine it's there. It is there, but you've got to find it. If you find it and start using it, tapping into it, that is an extraordinarily powerful reserve of living and if I've taken a good picture, it was taken in that zone. If I took a bad picture, I was caught slightly out of the zone and that that's why I get so nervous I'm saying to myself am I in the danger zone? Am I in that frequency of 200%? And if I'm not, how do I get there? Yeah, and some days you can't get there, you just can't. And athletes will tell you that too, and some performers will tell you that. Prince told me that Some days you can fake it, but it's not there. And that's the magic of creativity, that it's not mathematical.
Speaker 1:Van Gogh took himself there all the time. It was like he floored the gas pedal and I think that you burn out. Mozart did the same. You know, you burn out. My eyes are tired. You know, like my left eye, my focusing eye is tired. I used to say to my editor at the New Yorker let's go, my eyes are on fire, man, my eyes are on fire. But you know, eventually that's hard on the system, and I'm 56 now, so I'm waiting for the next generation to come along and kick my ass and say, right, we've had enough of that old geezer, give me the gauntlet, you know, and it's my turn. And that's nice, that's nice.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a good way to kind of wrap up with a couple of final questions, I guess. And you talked about future generation. You talked about rage, you know in an individual sense, but also this rage machine that we seem to live in, out there somewhere in the metasphere. We talked about how everyone has a camera. We talked about comfort zones. We talked about living in a life of comfort and abundance and how we penetrate through that, certainly as artists, as photographers. What is your advice? Like you know, we don't have a few more hours to kind of really unpack that, but little tidbits of advice to the younger generation. I know you find that important to be able to pass on and pay it forward. What is that message that you want to send to the younger generation in terms of photographers specifically?
Speaker 1:When I was in the Congo. This is a hard story to tell. Uh, it was actually. This bit was filmed a little bit in um in the Netflix film, if any of you have seen it. Uh, there's a young woman who comes into this room and, for those who don't know what I'm talking about, I was. I was in the DRC. I was invited there by a famous doctor who operates on women and children who are survivors of sexual violence. It's an epidemic of rape as a weapon of warfare and I was invited to go there by his hospital to help him tell this untellable story.
Speaker 1:So you can imagine the trepidation I was feeling, the mixed emotions of being a middle-aged white man in the Congo talking about the things that you just cannot even describe. So we are in this little room, my whole team of assistants, and quickly realized I've never really been aware of it, but at that time all my assistants were men and I suddenly became aware of it, because the courage it would take for a young woman to step into a room after what she's been through and she's surrounded by men is I mean, I can't even imagine it. So you can see how we were all very aware of our body language, of doing light readings. You've got to be very gentle with your body movements, no fast moves. Everyone has to adopt a physical and emotional position of humility and sensitivity and respect. So this young woman comes in with a baby. She sits down, her name is Esther and I ask her to tell me her story. So she's got her baby on her lap. The baby is called Jose beautiful little kid, so she says.
Speaker 1:When I. She's 16 at this time, she says when I was 14, I was fetching water for my mom and dad in a rural area and a group of militia men abducted me and took me into their base camp in the forest. They tied me to a tree and about 40 men raped me for four days, she said. Eventually the ropes came undone and she escaped. She made it to a village. A man rescued her from the street, brought her into his house. Only that man then raped her. Eventually he discarded her and she walked for days with severe injuries because she'd heard that there was this hospital nearby where a man and his nurses and doctors were healing people who had been through the same thing that she had. This doctor was viewed as a saint in this area, so she made it to the gates of the hospital, they invited her in. The doctor, successfully operated on her and healed her, only to find that she was now pregnant from rape. The little boy on her lap was born of rape.
Speaker 1:All of a sudden, my understanding of this situation just fundamentally goes into reverse. I had a daughter uh, I have a son and a daughter and I was sitting by her feet we didn't cover this bit in the film because it's just too too difficult a subject and I started to cry and I was trying to wipe my eyes so that I could take pictures, but I couldn't do it. Put down the camera and I said why am I crying? And you're not crying? She had this stoic dignity, this look of kindness, and I wouldn't say strength, it was beyond strength, it was like this grace. So I said how are you doing that? And I'm the one that's crying. And you know what she said to me. She said the reason I don't cry in your picture is because I don't want to make you feel sad. She said I don't want anyone to feel sad when they look at a picture of me. And then she said my mommy and daddy put me on this earth and told me that my job is to bring joy to the world, and I will keep my promise. Now listen to me, man.
Speaker 1:That is a leader. She's lost everything. She's got nothing left, and she's lost everything. She's got nothing left, and she's 16 and she's got the responsibility of a baby as well, but she still cares about me and she still cares about anyone that she doesn't even know, a stranger, that she wants them to smile and have feelings of inspiration when they hear her story. If she can do that, what can we do? She is a proper leader and I'm known to be a photographer of power and I have had the privilege to photograph, they say, more world leaders than anyone in history now, but I have never seen leadership on this level that I saw from Esther. So whenever I'm feeling vulnerable myself, or I feel I don't have it, or I feel a bit of an imposter and this is a common feeling for all of us it's to be human to feel those things, and this is a common feeling for all of us. It's to be human to feel those things. I think, strap up, man, think of Esther. She is a proper leader and she expects greatness from our generation. She wants us to fix things, and we can't fix it all, but we can all do something.
Speaker 1:And I'd like to end with the true meaning of democracy. Democracy comes from a Greek word called demokratia and that is made of two words demos and kratia. Demos means the people, kratia means power. Democracy means power to the people, means power to the people. We are all very, very strong if we acknowledge our talent and we push it and if we work together and dare to connect. When all these powerful people assumed we were weak and vulnerable and useless, if we can turn around and surprise them and say we're not weak, we're strong and we're not divided our differences, because to be different is to be human. But when we come together, we're a pretty powerful force too, and we will answer back to the forces of authority and we will say no, that's not how this will be, and we've seen.
Speaker 1:If you look at history, the revolution always bangs on the gates in the end, and I've been in revolutions, I've seen it, so I can say it happens. So I would say to everyone who's listening work hard, push your talent, it's worth it. Push yourself out the comfort level and whenever you feel a bit inadequate, just think well, there's no one else here. I've got to do it. I've got to be the person that people like Esther want me to be, and photographing your neighbors can be a beautiful thing. Photographing your shopkeepers can be a beautiful thing. It doesn't have to be a celebrity or a world leader. Humanity is the thing that drives us, and I've proved it that a picture of someone that no one's ever heard of can become historic if it's a good picture.
Speaker 2:Well, what a wonderful way to end an extremely inspiring conversation. I hope people get as much from this as I do. I want to thank you again. What does the future look like in your space? You've got your book. When can we get our hands on that book? What else is Platon working on at the moment?
Speaker 1:The book as I say, sold out in 10 days. There might be a few copies here and there, so if you can get your hands on it, do it. I actually made a collector's edition of my book, which is a hardback, and it comes in a special box, and I wasn't going to release it for another year because I thought it was going to take ages to sell this book. So now I might release it through my website, thepeoplesportfolioorg, and if I do, it will be more expensive, but I want everyone to know whoever buys it, all the money from that book sale goes back into celebrating other people's stories who want their voices amplified. So there's no profit. There's not even expenses. Every cent from that book goes back into the system that makes it sustainable. So that will be my immediate thing, but beyond that, I'm working on a big film project about America.
Speaker 1:We're about to head into an extremely divisive election and no matter who wins and I have my suspicions as to who's going to win I think people who live below the poverty line. These stories are going to become more and more important Homelessness, race, women's rights, immigration, opioid crisis all these issues that are really. It's shameful that America has these issues. Considering the amount of money we're happy to send for military equipment around the world. And yet there are, you know, education, healthcare, uh, gun violence. These are things we can fix like that. There's gotta be a weird reason why they're not fixed. So I've made, I've been working on this for like 10 years, and that will be the next thing you'll start seeing from me.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, yeah, we, and that will be the next thing you'll start seeing from me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we got it's time to take the gloves off, man and just, um, uh, try and stimulate that wonderful debate. And, as I say, democracy is not winning the debate, it's having the debate. So anyone who says vote for me, vote for democracy, well, that's a that's a conflict in itself.
Speaker 2:Who do you think is going to win?
Speaker 1:It's not for us to peer into the future, but if it was today, I would say I think Trump's going to win.
Speaker 2:Yeah, easy.
Speaker 1:I really do. I think he's in tune with something that Biden is not, and I think you know everyone talks about age, but I think you know to say well, they're both very similar age. That's not the issue. The issue is who is sharp, and you know, the people are not idiots. We see this play out in front of us. I mean, biden made the big mistake of saying you know, watch me, just watch me. And we are watching and we're seeing it play out and it's, it's like it's terrifying.
Speaker 1:You know, america loves confidence. It's a, it's a nation built on confidence, on ambition, on go get it bravado and aiming for your North Star, whatever that would be. I mean, that's the idea of the American dream, and so they've always wanted to know that the person who is at the helm is a confident person. I'm not talking about morals now, I'm talking about confidence, and I think America is lacking in confidence because they feel their leader is not sharp, and I think that's a fact. I'm not being political here, I'm just describing the mood of the country. So again country, um, so again very fragmented times. I think we're in for a bit of a rough ride, but, um, you know, the one thing is that if all these leaders are so old, eventually, eventually, uh, the young people will take the helm. I mean, it's just, you know how life works.
Speaker 1:I was at a. I mean, it's just you know how life works. I was at a. I was at a talk the other day with Bill Clinton and um and W Bush and I spoke to an audience before the two former presidents walked on stage and it was a weird moment to see two of my pictures literally come alive again on stage and W Bush said as he walked on he said look at me, I'm really old. He said look at my friend Bill Clinton. He said he's really old. He said we are both still younger than the two guys who are running for president right now. And everyone erupted in laughter and it was a moment where everyone came across political aisles and realized something insane about American politics right now.
Speaker 2:Also why. You know a little bit off topic now. I know we're coming up to the hard stop, but why are these the only two options? A population of 350 million, how does this system create such a narrow focus on people that arguably may not be suited? I mean, there's definitely better people out there who could lead the country better. I mean this comes back to kind of the society that we live in in terms of echo chambers, filtration, social media, digitalization, the story, how to get a true authenticity into the public domain so that people can care and people talk about it. Why is this system like this?
Speaker 1:Because it's about power. I've been very close to it. It's like Icarus you don't want to touch the sun man, it all falls apart. You, you, you always be very careful of flying too close to power. Power is something that when you acquire it, if you're privileged to acquire any power, you must share it. You cannot keep it. The moment you start to conserve it and hold onto it and protect it, it will destroy your life and all the people around you. But if you share it and give it out and use it for other people's benefits, then that's a positive use of this extraordinary thing called power and the danger that we're now in and this is just my humble opinion as an ordinary global citizen. As I say, I have no power whatsoever. I don't want it. I wouldn't want it, I wouldn't know what to do with it. But I've seen it very close and what I see is that the people who hold power these days, instead of sharing it, they are conserving it.
Speaker 1:Even with President Biden, he promised he would come to power and pass the gauntlet to the next generation. He was supposed to be the bridge and, of course, the way I see this is that now I see a different narrative creeping in. Well, I'm the only one who can do this, I'm the only one that can beat Donald Trump, I'm the only one that can manage this, I'm the one with the greatest experience. But that's not what promise was, that's not what we trusted you to do, and I think particularly with young people. I mean, the Democrats are really struggling now with a young base. It's what helped get them elected before.
Speaker 1:But younger people are starting to say well, you promised you would pass the gauntlet and of course it's always risky passing the gauntlet to someone who's younger and inexperienced. But you're supposed to nurture that talent, you're supposed to be a champion of that young person and boost them up and encourage them and train them from a very early age so that there's a natural process of handing over the torch and that I don't see that that happened because so many people in power, in American politics particularly, are so old. Where are the new, younger generation? So eventually, if it's not passed, it will be taken, and that's how it works. So it's better to pass it and go down in history as a good person than to cling to it and have it taken away from you. So we'll see how this plays out, but power is a very dangerous thing once you start holding onto it, and that's what I'm personally seeing across the political divide right now.
Speaker 2:Well, you've passed on some wonderful stories, wonderful inspirational stories, and I've taken so much from this. It's been an absolute privilege to talk to you. Thank you once again for coming on and to reflect the very moving person that you encountered in Esther. You certainly bring joy to the world. You certainly bring inspiration to the world. I hope you can keep it up for as long as you can see through that focus eye and, if not, passing it forward. Keep on the amazing work and we'll follow you through this journey over the next five, 10, 20 years. You know talking of passing the torch.
Speaker 1:I'll end with this five, 10, 20 years, you know, talking of passing the torch. I'll end with this At the I think it was the Republican convention, many, many years ago, I was on the floor there working, photographing the madness of a, you know, of a presidential convention in America. And it is a circus man and I was in deep and I walked past one of my heroes at that time. It was Richard Avedon and he was working for the New Yorker. He had that incredible contract, um, that we all wished we would have had. And, uh, he was very old and he was also walking around with his assistant looking for subjects to pull off the floor to bring into his little booth where he had a studio. He was shooting his final project called democracy and, uh, I couldn't believe it's richard avedon. So I just ran up to him in the middle of this chaos, and it is a circus, and I said, mr Avedon, I said give me the torch, pass it to me. And I said I will run like fucking crazy with it. Man, I will not let you down, give me the torch. You open the door, but you got to give me the torch. And his assistant like, put their, their, their sort of head in their hand. Oh god, not now. You know, we just got a deadline, get this kid out of here.
Speaker 1:Avadon, uh, gave me this huge hug. He didn't say anything and he hugged me for about two or three minutes. He did not let go. He was so. He was frail. You could tell when you hold him in your arms. His body was small, but his arms were just. He wouldn't let go and I wouldn't let go. This is a magical moment, insane moment of these two people hugging it, two strangers hugging each other in the middle of this political like insanity all around us, speeches and banners and stuff. And eventually he let go and he just turned around and walked off, carried on with his job. I picked up my camera, carried on with my job.
Speaker 1:I think he died two weeks later and, um, um, a few years later the New Yorker gave me his contract and the first shoot I ever did for the New Yorker. I thought about that hug and I thought I'm going to have to push myself into that danger zone here for him because I promised him that I wouldn't let him down. So, first day shooting for the New Yorker, that's what I did, and every shoot I did for the New Yorker. I pushed myself way into that comfort, that, that that discomfort, danger zone. So much so that it became normal for me to be in that zone. So now I'm turning into the old geezer myself, and the next generation needs to be given the torch and they need to be told that they are so needed right now. Their talent is valuable.
Speaker 1:Photographers are the ambassadors of our time. We help society pause and get a moment of reflection, and it's got nothing to do with fame, power and money. It's all to do with making us feel something about our own journey in life and help us reflect on our own legacy as ordinary people around the world. So that is the most beautiful thing to be a photographer to help people see themselves. So a message to all the photographers listening pick up the bloody camera, finish the job you're supposed to do. It will hurt, but you're so stronger than you ever thought. And if you ever thought you weren't, think of Esther and think of any of your family members who've gone through really hard times and imagine that they went through that same period and they tapped into that resilient zone. You have to use that zone, push your talent and help humanity come back together.
Speaker 2:Platon thank you so much. Fight the power.
Speaker 1:Cheers Thanks.