The MOOD Podcast

Mastering Confidence: Peter Hurley’s Journey to Iconic Headshots, E057

• Matt Jacob

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Why would a successful and famous model become a successful and famous photographer?

Peter Hurley is an American photographer who made a remarkable transition from professional sailing and fashion modelling to headshot photography, having photographed some of the most recognised people and images around the world.

What you'll hear about:

  • Peter's journey from model to photographer.
  • The challenges and successes of working with high-profile clients.
  • The importance of personal branding and building strong client relationships.
  • How to overcome imposter syndrome.
  • Insights on mentoring aspiring photographers.

Peter has gained significant recognition for his ability to capture the essence of his subjects. His unique approach influenced many photographers in the realm of portraiture and allowed him to become an exclusive personality in the industry.

During our conversation, Peter opens up about his early days in photography and the memorable experiences that defined his career, sharing poignant anecdotes about boosting clients' confidence and the significant role of trust in capturing genuine expressions.

Find Peter's work here:
Website: https://peterhurley.com/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@peter_hurley
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/peter_hurley/
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Message me, leave a comment and join in the conversation!

Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.

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Peter:

I don't think I've ever told this story. I was modeling for years before I picked up a camera. I decided a long time ago that my purpose was to. That whole imposter syndrome thing hit me for like what? 10, 12 years straight.

Matt:

How can you advise people to get over that imposter syndrome? Imposter syndrome is so. What do you think are the kind of the most significant challenges that are facing photographers these days? You have to stand out with your art, so you got to work on yourself first tell us you know a couple of things, that, a couple of tips that you can you can share with us.

Peter:

I think the number one thing that is going to get you the furthest with people when you're a photographer is what is it about your mindset over the last 10, 20 years?

Matt:

One thing about that that you think has really helped you progress and be successful and be so well known as you are now.

Peter:

I know what it is, I just don't tell this story very often, so Peter Peter Hurley.

Matt:

Welcome to the Moo Podcast, my friend. It's great to finally get you on here.

Peter:

Well, thanks for having me, Matt. This is cool. I'm glad we made it.

Matt:

Thanks for sticking with me. Yeah, sorry to disrupt your evening plans, but yeah, it's great to have you online with me. I wanted to start with just a very simple question, but hopefully it will spark a little bit more interest into your background and how you do things, and I wanted to ask you if you had a secret ingredient right that made your work so popular, so attractive, so successful. What do you think that?

Peter:

is Squinch, tell us about it. So I was modeling for years before I picked up a camera and I remember having these conversations with my friends that were models and they'd be like well, how do you look cool? And I was like I don't know, I don't know what to do when the photographer doesn't tell me anything. If the photographer didn't say anything to me, I was like I don't know what to do. I never went to modeling school. I just showed up in front of a, in front of a casting director. One well, actually an art director at ralph lawrence saw me and gave me a job and next thing I know I'm in front of bruce weber's camera and uh, he was amazing. But when I was with photographers that didn't know what they were doing, it was, it was horrible. So models we would talk about like okay, what do you do? What? Like like, when the photographer doesn't know what they're doing, what do you? What do you do with your face? And I was like I don't know, I just kind of like, look off and squint my eyes up a little bit and uh, and that was about the gist of the conversation, I think. And then, years later I mean, I was a model for five years, before I even thought about becoming a photographer. I just thought photographers were cool. I was like those guys are cool.

Peter:

And then Bruce was like well, why don't you pick up a camera? And I was like I don't know, why would I pick up a camera? I don't know anything about it. He goes just get a camera, start messing with it. And I was like really, he goes yeah, go get a camera. And he like forced me to go get a camera. And I was like so I went to this used camera store and I and the guy asked me what are you going to be shooting? And I was like I'm going to be shooting my friends, I guess. And and they're models, so I guess I'll be shooting some models. And he goes okay, well, here's a, here's a 35 millimeter body. And he's like what kind of lens do you want? And I was like I don't know. He's like you're shooting portraits. And I'm like, yeah, I guess. And he goes, oh, you need a hundred millimeter lens. So he gave me this hundred and I was like, okay, I didn't know what a focal length was.

Peter:

So one of my friends who was a model had an apartment in the city. I got the camera, I put some film and I went over to her apartment and I was like no-transcript, oh the squinch, see the squinch. So so I knew I I had been modeling for a while. I knew that the wide-eyed look was kind of not cool level coolness way low. And all the photographers in new york that were shooting actors would never know to make them do anything with their eyes. So I always told people to squint and then they would do it too much and then I was like it's not really squinting and like so.

Peter:

But I was always like squint, squint, squint. I always I said it more than uh, any other word in my studio, cause I just wanted people to look confident and I knew it came from the eyes. So, anyway, one one day, my, my, uh, my daughter came up with the word squinch. I think she's like dad. I mean, it was 2012. So she was like 10 years old or something, 2012. So she was like 10 years old or something. And now I have to, she was nine. I know the age of my, I have twins, um, so anyway, and she said the word squinch and I was like, oh my gosh, that's, that's a cooler word, because it's not really squinting, it's a narrowing of the of the lower eyelid and the pupil. It's not a squint is when you close your eyes to to block the sun, or you know some people you know sometimes you squint in a you know windstorm or something you know, but. But a squinch is like the way our eyes move when we're communicating. So I always wanted people to look like they were in a thought process. 100% of why I'm here today or whatever, became a world.

Peter:

I guess I got world recognition for the Squinch, so that's why it was. Because of that, they put me on Good Morning America here in the States and they came to the studio. It's funny when they did that, when I, so I I did this video on the Squinch and it went viral. And then good morning America called and the correspondent they sent was my client who I had taken her headshots years previously. Uh, sarah Haynes. She's a huge superstar in the U? S in terms of the morning shows and stuff like that. She's had her own show. She's just so amazing. She's amazing human being. But it just so happened that she was the one, she was the correspondent they sent to come to my studio and fill me with this squinch thing. So that's it, hands down.

Peter:

There's no way I would have gotten anywhere. I don't think, or I mean I, I, I don't know that I would have risen to the heights without having, uh, made everybody do that. It wasn't even that I made the video, it was just that I made everybody do that. It wasn't even that I made the video, it was just that I made everybody do that. And then my work took off and then I was like you know, I got won all these awards in New York. So I was like, oh, I got to open up in LA just because I got to got to get the whole country. And then I did that. And then the F stoppers walked in my studio and then the rest of the world like kind of got a hold of this idea and it's been crazy ever since. A lot of fun.

Matt:

So much to unpack there. Let's go back to interesting how you might have fallen into headshot photography. But I'm going to ask you how you got into headshot photography, specifically in a minute. But going back to that moment in the apartment with a 100mm lens, do you still have that photo? That would be amazing.

Peter:

I don't know where those negatives are. I bet you I have them. They're probably in storage somewhere. I mean, I didn't throw anything out. Um, I've got to find my old negatives. I think they're in my father's house in his attic and there's so much stuff up there that I'd have to go look for. But, but I wish I, I would. I gotta have that. I want to find my, my negatives. I found a uh, an old negative of me in 2001.

Peter:

I picked up the camera in 2000. Uh, I but I bought, I decided to become a photographer. In 2000 I got that first camera, probably in 98 maybe, and I shot that for like two years and then I was like, well, I'm gonna get serious now. And then I bought a camera because I was gonna start my business and that was in 2000. So, and then, bruce weber, we shot roly flex. So I was like I want to get a roly flex. So I bought a roly flex and then I took a picture I didn't realize this of my, um, my wife and myself in our bathroom in the first apartment that I rented.

Peter:

That I couldn't afford, that was crazy, that had a southern facing window, that I shot everything. But I took a selfie of us and I and I put it. And there's all sorts of stuff here. Hold on, I put it. I don't know if you could see that. There it is. Um, yeah, yeah, and I and I took that and I found the negative like like not long ago, and I was like, oh, I gotta print this thing and I love my old negatives. I'm like I was doing all my own black and white. I was uh processing my film in in this studio apartment and then going out to new jersey where in my mom's basement, I set up a dark room so I would go print on weekends and shoot all week. So it was, it was pretty uh, it was amazing times.

Matt:

I gotta find those negatives, more of them did that original photo with the hundred mil, was it? Did it end up being like a headshot or did you? Was it more of a more of a body portrait?

Peter:

man, I hope I can now. I want to go find that. Um, I remember the girl because she was at the time she was dating the drummer for Bon Jovi and but her name was Cole.

Matt:

I think I forget her name I used to love I still love Bon Jovi. I used to be obsessed with him.

Peter:

Yeah, I love those guys. I got to go to see them. I was like VIP in their concert because the F-stoppers David Bergman was their photographer and he's a friend of mine and the F stoppers went and we filmed an episode there and I got to go and I was like VIP section all the way. It was so cool and one of my friends from childhood married David the keyboardist, and so I got to hang out in his VIP section with him. They were really nice. It was awesome. But I don't shoot rock stars. I didn't, I don't need, I don't even think I took my camera. I was like just enjoying it.

Matt:

I love the music so I mean it's interesting how you kind of thought about getting into photography in the first place because you thought photographers were cool, and then you tried to, kind of you took a few photos and fell in love with it. Do you still think photography and photographers are cool?

Peter:

I don't't. I mean I, I would think I was right, I was like I was like these guys have a cool life. I mean I don't, I don't know, you point a camera at somebody, something, and you get paid. I don't think it's work. It doesn't feel like work to me. I mean I love it.

Peter:

I decided a long time ago that my purpose was to put a skip in the step of somebody from having been in front of my camera, like make them feel better about our appearance, because I think it we take such a hit as a, as a society, um, on looking good, like in, and then you're born the way you're born and you know things happen and you maybe get out of shape and then maybe you break your nose and it skews like over like this, and then you worry about it and then, whatever your teeth aren't great or you know, and everybody has their thing, whatever their thing is, and I had this guy in today and I always set my purpose to make people feel better about about themselves. So and I always try and do it in the first picture I take. So I took a picture of him and, uh, I knew it was good. So I was like, hey, you know I shoot tether. I was like, look at that. And he, good. So I was like hey, you know I shoot tether. I was like, look at that. And he's like what? I was like, yeah, he's like what, what is that? I was like, yeah, that's you. I just we just did that together.

Peter:

He walked out. He couldn't believe. He was in shock. And I said to him on the way out I said a couple of things. Just remember this Number one, you're better looking than you think you are. And number two, let your teeth out, because your smile rocks and you're holding it back for no reason. And uh, and that's what I try and instill in each person that comes in here I'm trying to figure out what it is, what it is about them that maybe you know. I mean, I was on the chopping block as a model. I know what it's like to be in front of a camera and not feel great about yourself. And then I'd be in a room full of like 20 or 30 or 40 guys and I'd be like what am I doing in here? Look at all these good looking dudes. And I'm like here. But I worked okay, I did all right, but I, I'm lucky I got out when I did, because the age that the looks weren't getting any better. I'll tell you that much.

Matt:

But before that you were a sailor right, so you went from sailing. But before that you were a sailor right, so you went from sailing professional sailing, to modeling, to photography is that, is that correct?

Peter:

yeah, in terms of yeah, I was um, so I had, and, and sailing turned into the modeling. Like I, because of the sailing, I got the modeling. So I was training for the olympics. Uh, I graduated from I basically graduated from college without a clue as to what I'm going to do in life. Anybody who knows when they're that age, I mean, I'm just actually glad I didn't know. But I remember being like I have no clue.

Peter:

And I went to school for human physiology. I graduated with a bachelor in health sciences and I was going to try and go be, I don't know, a physical therapist or something. I don't know what I was going to do with it. And, uh, and at the time the boat that I had grown up racing became an Olympic class and all these guys that I sailed against decided that should go train for the way, maybe we could go to the Olympics. And I was like, and I wasn't very good. I was like, maybe ranked top, maybe 30th in the country. And I was like, and I wasn't very good. I was like, maybe ranked top, maybe 30th in the country, and you had to win to go to the Olympics. But I was like, well, I'm 23 years old, I don't know what I'm going to do and, uh, I'm going to go do that. So while I was doing that, a designer met me and sent me over to over to Ralph Lauren and that's how the modeling happened.

Peter:

And then I failed to make the U S Olympic team and, uh, I finished eighth in the country and my highest ranking in the world was I got ranked 17th in the world back then, which was pretty cool. I was pretty psyched about that. I was like 17th in the world's cool. I mean it could have been better, but I w I flipped over in the last race when I was an eighth in the world championships. I would have been top 10 in the world if I hadn't flipped, but I did.

Peter:

And, uh, I always call myself 180 degree loser. I was like I lost everything. I missed the Olympic trials. I flipped over in the race. I had the world champion on my on my heels one race and they flagged me for cheating, so I had to drop out of the race. I was like I had all these things happen to me that were horrible, and then I turned it around to to start, you know the, the, you know dream job, which is this. So, anyway, I got lucky.

Peter:

But, um, one of the things that that was cool was having that experience of, you know, training at a high level against the best in the world and seeing like the mindset up there is crazy, like I didn't have it. These guys had it Like like, when you get up, like they were scary, how intense they were when I trained. I would go training with them or sailing with them or even just having breakfast next to like the world champion and the gold medalist and getting to know those guys. I'd be like they are so intense, are so intense. Um, I was like I don't know if I have this level of intensity. Uh, and it was. It was really interesting and I remember I mean, how could I ever beat them if I felt this way about them? And I never did beat them.

Matt:

so you know, maybe that's what it takes, so, but it was a great but is that that I guess that mindset of being less intense and taking yourself less seriously, which is evident in the way you carry yourself, that's seems to be something that has made you successful has at least allowed you to really excel, certainly in the photography space. Would that be true?

Peter:

I don't know, I mean I like to have fun, but but I have an online persona that's different than the way I roll, you know, know, in. Well, I would have my assistant. I'll do workshops. I do workshops all over the world. I do that. I've been doing this workshop the headshot intensive since 2011.

Peter:

I started it before I even started my, my headshot crew, like my coaching platform, and I've done it in almost every continent, I mean, except for the cold ones, and uh, you know, I think pretty much I did it almost everywhere and, um, and people will call my assistant and be like look, I don't know if I should sign up for this. She's like why? She's like, oh, they're like I don't know if I could spend two days with Peter. I mean, he's a little crate, like his energy's out of control and she's like he's not like that. All the time. I was like it is this truth about this online. You know persona that I that I I created this guy that's like excited and jumps around and yells at people when he's shooting them and stuff, and I do do that, but I'm not like that a hundred percent of the time. And uh, you know, I'm not like that now or whatever, but, uh, what people think so it also is a is a is something that helped me get out there.

Peter:

I just decided, if I was going to teach photography ever, if I was going to go outside of my my little world of shooting, which I was just doing, that's all. I had blinders on, I was just shooting, I was just like I don't know what's going on outside, I'm just going to shoot. And then, like I said before, the F stoppers walked in and changed that. But I decided that if I'm going to teach, I'm going to be entertaining, because I think if you wrap your teaching with stories, um, and add entertainment value, people can latch onto that. You know, and I I just can't. You know, I, you know, I, I have a very short attention span, so I'm like, if they're like me, they're not, they're gonna. I'm gonna have to keep everybody on their toes, so I always keep them thinking. So that's been important to me.

Matt:

you know with headshots then is what is, what is it about headshots that makes you, or at least started out your curiosity? And you know, certainly, with the process and I know you talked about, you know, wanting to make people feel amazing Was that the initial kind of instigator into getting into headshots specifically no, no Headshots were specifically.

Peter:

The only reason why I'm a headshot photographer is because I wanted to get out of a bar. I was a model actor, bartender dude, and I picked up the camera because I thought it would be cool and I thought photographers were cool. But at the time I was like, well, if I can make money with the thing, I won't have to be in the bar till 4 am and then I can concentrate on my acting. This is what I thought. And then I fell in love with it and I was like I'm not gonna act at it. I sucked at acting. I had I and I had like a sign. I had like I. I went.

Peter:

I went on the set of this job once where I was supposed to play this character and it was a soap opera. So I'd been doing some soap operas in new york city. This footage would be great. Well, they don't have the footage because I didn't, because this happened. So I go in and on the soap operas. It's like a well-oiled machine. They're just used to working and I hadn't been on this particular one so I didn't know how it worked. But I go in and they start the directors are up in this booth and they start directing the scene and everybody's walking around the scene. And I'm walking around the scene and I didn't really talk to anybody because I was kind of an introverted, believe it or not, at the time, I certainly was, and I didn't know what to say to anybody. So we ran through the scene and I left and I go down, I get on the bus and I'm going I remember, I'll never forget I get on the bus, I'm going back to my apartment and the phone rings, my cell phone rings. I had just gotten a cell phone, probably back then, and I answer it because I was using pagers. When I first started modeling, I had to have a pager and my agent used to page me. Well, I had gotten a flip phone this must have been 97 or something and my manager calls and says where are you? And I was like I'm on the bus going home. Why? Because I did the? And I was like I'm on the bus going home. Why? Because I did the scene and I and I was done, you know.

Peter:

And she goes no, you didn't do the scene, they, they just rehearsed the scene. They didn't shoot the scene, they were rehearsing with you and I was like, oh, I thought it was shot. Nobody said anything to me and I said should I go back? Thought it was shot. Nobody said anything to me and I said should I go back? Oh no, they hate you. They're so mad at you they're never going to hire you again. And I was like, oh my gosh, they're super pissed that you ruined their whole day. They didn't know what to do. I was like, oh my gosh. I was like this is a sign and that's like the day I quit acting. So that was it.

Peter:

But yeah, tough business talk about tough business, oh yeah, and I was not good, so I don't know, you know, it did help me with what I'm doing now. I mean, I'm in front of cameras a lot. I I like it, I don't I don't have any problem with it um, and I enjoyed it and helped me grow in a, you know, grow that direction, you know, and then help me be in front of audiences and push my envelope in that in that way. But, um, yeah, I was just strictly money. I was like I just want to make a living and I had done the headshot thing a number of times and I had seen the best.

Peter:

I hired one of the best in New York to do my headshot and I was like this doesn't look that like and I loved his work. So I just kind of of was like I'll just kind of do it, I'll do the white background horizontal thing, just like this, and uh, and then I just took off. The one thing that I did that was different is that I knew that if I was going to do it right, it had to be based on expression. So I was like I got to pull something out of people and that's that was. That was the whole thing. And then, when the money started rolling in, I was like forget the. I'm done with the acting. This is game on you know.

Matt:

What a great story. You talked about pulling something out of people, which is obviously, you know, the essence of most photography, certainly when we're dealing with people In the headshot space. How do you do that, you know? Tell us a little bit about your process. I know you know we don't have days to go through workshops of yours, but tell us you know a couple of things that, a couple of tips that you can, you can, share with us to to really make people feel okay in front of that camera and get something out of them. How do you spot that in them and how do you get out of them?

Peter:

uh, well, the first thing is I mean, I think the most important thing is your people skills, cause I again, I teach a lot of divers. I can teach the technical, but the people skills are hard to teach. Like that's personality driven. So you also have to be able to read people well. So somebody comes in, they're super timid and shy. I'm not going to be like, oh, this is going to be great, get in front of my camera, let's go. I'm not going to be like, oh, this is going to be great, Get in front of my camera, let's go. You know I'm going to be like, hey, you know, come on in, let's, let's. Let's see what we can do with you. Today.

Peter:

I think the number one thing that is going to get you the furthest with people when you're a photographer is leaning on your skill set. So you got to have like I just did a recipe and the recipe works. So I was like I'm just gonna do the same thing to everybody, because I don't know how to make it look better than this. So I'm just gonna do this. And if it's that, that was, I was like this looks the best. I don't know how to do it any better. And people would come in and you know I'd put them in some real beautiful light and even if they look scared, they still were in the best light they ever had, probably. And uh, and you know, you start there and the thing that I found is that humans have the capacity to learn. So I did it with the guy today. It's the same with everybody. I shot the guy today. I shot him, I showed him the picture.

Peter:

So basically, you're playing this game of trust. Uh, you're trying to. I call it the trustability factor. So you are trying to get your on a scale of one to 10, how quickly trustability is your speed to trust, to get trusted by the person you're the trustee or whatever. It's a two-way street, basically. And, um, you've got to get them trust you with your expertise. So there's an expertise trust. We, we deal with expertise trust all the time. I mean, think about it. You, you walk in an airplane and you've got some expertise trust of the person up front, right, you know, you just, you just gonna, you're just gonna be like all right, take me away and let's hope it all works out. That's kind of like what photographers ask for but don't receive often. But if you do get that like if the person comes in as a referral from a friend, you've got companion trust, like somebody said to them hey, this person's really good or they did their homework.

Peter:

Like a lot of people come in here they don't get the memo. That I'm really good. I think I'm really good, like I'm like I, I know what I'm doing, I feel like I'm an expert, I feel like I'm going to take care of them, but they don't get the memo. And they try to do it themselves and I'm like I can't help this person, you know. So it's really about their well-being in front of your camera. Just goes away because they, they trust you with your expertise.

Matt:

So if you can do that, they're going to be disarmed and you're going to be able to get some interesting things out of them, for sure why is that that people find photographers um well, they don't necessarily trust photographers initially, right, even if they've looked at their back work and they've bought something, a service from a photographer, there is some element of trust there, otherwise they wouldn't have purchased it. But there's still a little bit like is it because it's about them? Right, it's an image about them. They want it to be perfect and they're worried about themselves looking not the way they want to look, because it's so personal well, you're being recorded, so they're being recorded.

Peter:

They probably aren't sure what to do with their face. Or and it shows because, uh, you, you see it a mile away. When you like I don't send the message from my brain to my index finger to press down. If I don't see a face that I like in in my viewfinder, I'm like i'm'm just not going to shoot it. So I'm like you got to do something with your face. But there becomes a performance-based anxiety. So they need to perform. They don't know what to do. It's so amazing.

Peter:

This is what my favorite thing is to get people in front of my camera, because the camera is so powerful. So I've shot just about anybody out there almost. I mean, through the course of my career I think I had shot like 30,000 people three feet in front of the thing and I can read them like a book from the moment, before they even get in there. And then I notice if there's any change in their personality when they do get in front of the camera, and then the way they handle a challenge I get to see. So it's super, super interesting for me. And then the the fact is is that I firmly believe this the way people handle challenges is inherently, inherently the way they handle challenges. So this is a challenge. So they're going to behave like some people don't listen to my coaching at all, because the way they handle challenges is they got to dig themselves out of their own rut and they don't want to take the coaching. Um, and those people don't have not, over the years, meshed well with me, uh, because they usually they can't get it done on their own and I'm not a yes man, so I'm just like it's it gets difficult.

Peter:

So I had to figure out ways to trick people. So I did. So I trick people on purpose. I want people engaged in a thought process, um, and I want them to, and I think that's what stands out. It's, you see, it a mile away. In my work, and especially if I make people laugh, it's usually everything's genuine, like it's like it can't. You know, most of it. I won't put a shot out there if it doesn't have like an oomph of you know that laughter rather than a smile. I don't like smiles per se as much as I like laughter. So in my work, if I'm going to post a smile, it's going to have energy.

Matt:

Do you feel like and you talked about kind of the images we project of ourselves, certainly in today's algorithmic and social media society, project of ourselves, certainly in today's algorithmic and social media society? In your experience day to day, doing this day in, day out, have you seen a trend where people are a little bit more anxious about these types of things and a little bit more kind of conscious of how they do put themselves out there and therefore how they look in front of your camera?

Peter:

I mean there is a matching for people's personal brands and it depends what their brand is. So I've been um working with different people doing different things and I was always very firm, a firm believer that people need to look, you know, approachable and confident. So I call it confidence with approachability. I coined that term, you know, back in 2000 or when I, or whenever I picked up a camera, started shooting actors Back in 2000, or whenever I picked up a camera, started shooting actors and I was like and I wrote about it in my book and I was like, you know, confidence coupled with approachability is my speed, but that's not always what somebody wants.

Peter:

A Navy SEAL last week and a Secret Service agent past ex-Navy SEAL, ex-secret Service agent today and they both did not need the. I got them to look slightly approachable but they didn't want approachability at all. They wanted a firmness to it, a strength, a power, you know, and that. So you have to realize you know who am I, who am I going for tomorrow? I have a woman coming in who's acting and her agent. She said she told my assistant she goes. I need like the badass attorney or DA, I need like a mom and I need a crack at a core and, like I was, like I can handle all three of those Great, no problem, that's perfect. I'd love that she said that, because I I do say that with actors I'm like, look, I'll mess with it. I'll be like, look, you don't know what you're going to. You might be perfect for that part. That part is out there and bookable. You need to look like that. Let's do it. You know, running the range of expression for the human face is what I love to do.

Matt:

So what's the worst experience you've, I mean we could talk about. I mean 99.9% of your shoots, I'm sure, leave the client very, very happy and you've had a great time and they've got ready for money. There has to be in 30,000 kind of shots. There has to be in 30 000 kind of shots. There has to be some experiences that you've had difficulty with, or can you give me an example of one of the?

Peter:

I mean it's burned in my brain or worse experience. You don't have to go any further. It's burned in my brain. Let me tell you, um, look you, you. You don't learn from the easy ones, so it's all the experiences that add up that made me the photographer I am. It's why people don't get it. They come in my door and they think I may be good, but they don't understand what's looking at them, I'm like a fine-tuned machine. It's crazy.

Peter:

I look through the viewfinder and I get hyper-focused on everything. I'll see a freaking collar thread that bugs me, that I got to go get scissors for and cut. You know. So I, before we go to retouching, like I hate that stuff. Um, I'm seeing everything, not only in terms of what their clothing or appearance or hair or whatever it looks like, but what their expression, what their thought process is, all that stuff. So you know, I've had shoots, big shoots go wrong and a couple in particular come up and famous people, big companies, where I failed and I didn't get the shot, and it was.

Peter:

It was I. Back then I didn't think it was my fault, but now I'm like I wouldn't handle it like that now. So it was my fault. I lost the client Um, you know it's, but it's, that's the learning process photographed, I want every human being to come through that door and get a good photograph. But you've got people that are deathly afraid of cameras, don't want to even be here it's like going to the dentist and you've got people that love cameras and don't want to leave and everything in between. So you're going to have the ones that you know aren't going to be easy to handle and sometimes you're going to fail. But those are the ones that that you know. I I remember, like yesterday, the ones that were that were great. I'm great, I got great pictures. That person was cool, you know, but I was like I don't, I don't really I don't know what I learned from that shoot. So I'll just kind of dive into it a little bit.

Peter:

I I was photographing an author that everybody knows and everybody listening to this would know, because it was someone who wrote a book that became a movie that everybody knows. So and I don't like to talk about it but, um, it cost me the. The publisher, you know, stopped working with me because I didn't deliver, which was terrible. As a portrait photographer you want to be, you know, getting a big publisher to send you authors is like one of the best deals. I like would go into every bookstore and like, look at all my pictures on the, on the backs of books and fronts of books, covers of books, inside covers of books and it was like it's like such an honor. It's like almost like like wow, it's super cool. And um, and this just didn't the author said to me look, I don't want anybody in the room except you. And I was like, okay, so I, I got the studio ready and I kind of kept trying to keep everybody out front and I put v flats across the whole studio so people couldn't come into the shooting area and, um, I didn't want anybody moving them, so I built this huge wall and then the art director who hired me walked in and walked around the v flats and got in and sat in front of the computer and I was like I looked at and the author was very much like nobody and I was like looked at her and looked at the the art director and was like, oh my gosh, what do I do?

Peter:

I was like the art director hired me and he needs to see the pictures, but now I've got another human being in the room that I can't connect with, I can't have a conversation as to why the author's having such a problem here, and I didn't handle it. Well, I just shot. So I just forced the shooting, forced the shooting, forced the shooting, forced the shooting. And we got done with the session and it was not pretty. And the art director called me a couple of days later and said we're not going to use the images. I was like, oh, I expected that they paid me. They're like we're. Days later and said we're not going to use the images. So I was like I don't, I expected that I they paid me. They're like we're paying you, but we're not going to use them. And that was the end of my relationship with that publisher. Um, as far as I knew, until years later she calls me back up and I'm like hello, I'm like what it? It's her and this other author that I photographed wrote a new book and she called him and she said, hey, we need to do new pictures for this book and this. I was like, wow, that was awesome, cause this guy was like an amazing he's not, unfortunately, he's no longer with us, but amazing author that I got to photograph. And, uh, one of these guys that like had my back and it's not easy out there. There's a lot and you know what.

Peter:

The other thing is that sometimes people just want change. You know you could have a good client and you're working with them. For a while. I've been very fortunate with my closest client, like my longest term client I was shooting for today and I started shooting for them in 2001 and I they've never let me, left me. They've never, you know, not wanting me to shoot stuff for like it's, like it's it's. So it means so much to me to have the that client and the other ones that stick, stick with you. But they, the other ones, come and go, like if somebody leaves and somebody replaces them. You know you just don't know. You know where, where are you going to get the work from? And you know.

Peter:

So it, it, it was. It was nice because he brought me back and then I started shooting for that publisher again, and you know, and then I stopped again.

Matt:

I don't know where I am with that so it happens, if you were in the same, if you're in the same situation now, having more experience and kind of looking back in hindsight, how would you have dealt with that situation different?

Peter:

oh, I wouldn't have pressed the button. I would have been like we're not doing this today. I would have just been like it's oh wow. You would have just canceled the whole shoot. Yeah, I would have been like either we're not doing this today or you're getting it together and and taking my direction, we're going to do this, but not. This is not. I would. I would have not shot, I wouldn't press the button. There's no reason to look through the camera and see somebody that looks petrified and press the button. And if I couldn't get to them?

Peter:

you know it's not, I would. Yeah, I learned so much. Um, one of the things that I'm working on I get very excited when I shoot celebrities, like in. Uh, affluent people are like I shoot a lot of billionaires. I've been fortunate to do that.

Peter:

I've shot a bunch of celebrities and whenever I get one, like I'm like, oh, this is gonna be awesome, and I get so amped up in the adrenaline that I run in and I get excited and I rush and I do all this stuff and I luckily, um, it's all panned out okay, but but I'm like I'm like all right, I got to get it together, I got, I got. I, I deserve the work. I should get the work. I should be shooting these people. What am I? Just settle down, Peter, You've been there, done that. Now you're okay, you know, and that's what I'm working on internally, because I was like it's fun, I get amped up and I and I do a good job and I think they enjoy um, me, I, I I'm like a kid in a candy store because I get so excited about my work.

Peter:

Still, Like I don't even, I can't even like hide it, Like I, I see a good shot and I start yelling shebang and running around the room and the part of it is is for them Like if you're not excited about your work, how do you expect them to be? So when I get those shoots, it's an adrenaline rush. At the same time, it's super exciting because I think right now the work that I'm doing is really great. I really love it. It's been a journey to get here, but that whole imposter syndrome thing hit me for like what? 10, 12 years straight. You're like how do I get this job? Why am I here? Am I going to be able to handle it? And now I'm like I got a skill set. I'll figure, I'm going to figure some stuff out.

Matt:

I'm going to do some cool stuff how can you advise people to get over that imposter syndrome? It's so common, especially with photographers and what with the competition out there and essentially a saturated market wherever you might. Is that part of kind of what you teach people and how to kind of break through that imposter syndrome, or is it something we have to sit with and learn to get through?

Peter:

ourselves when I teach photographers or when I teach my clients. Photographers think imposter syndrome is so um, easy to say that you're. You're experiencing that because we've all experienced it and it makes a lot of sense. It's like you know how the heck did I get here? I give photographers a lot of jobs, like we have a site that's. You know, they put a photographer searching and they get a job and they feel a sense of um, you know they have to do a good job because it's coming through my site. I want them to do a good job because it's coming through my site. I want them to do a good job for the person that hired them. I don't even. It's not even a. There's not even a referral. I don't even know what's happening. It's just the site automatically like refers out stuff.

Peter:

I send people there all the time and I think some of the photographers feel like they're in over their head and I'm like, just stick to your, your recipe that you have. Don't shoot people. You know any different. Get it done the way you do it and and allow things to happen. You know human nature. The person who wants the shot like wants you to do well too. It's not like they're going in. I'm paying you, I expect you to do well. It's like they're going in. Yeah, I'm paying you, I want you to do well, but like, I need you to do well for me, but I want you to like I want to.

Peter:

You know, I always thought it's my day too. I don't have to put up with somebody who's like grouchy or not. You know, having a good time and and a lot of times my my thing that I've always liked over the years. I just like this um, when I get like a ceo, um, generally their ea is booking it, or maybe a cmo for the company or something like that their assistant will book something and they always ask how much time do you need? Now, I know, if I say I need an hour, they're going to say oh, um, I don't know if we can do that. You know, if I say I need a half hour, they're going to go. Maybe we can squeeze a half hour in this person's schedule. I mean, these people are busy. They don't like an hour during their day to do a photo shoot is not going to happen Like they just, I mean, unless they're really into photography, which is really so cool, because when that happens. Oh my gosh, the doors open, the floodgates open, I get to do whatever I want. I run around the freaking place. I do, they love it. They're like, yeah, just let that guy do anything, which is great, because so many people are fans of photography. So you don't even know what you're walking into.

Peter:

Like I've walked into situations where I've been like how'd you book me, how'd you get this? And they're like what do you mean? I've been yelling shebang for years. I love you, I like your stuff. I was like what? Really, I didn't know that. So I get to do the coolest things.

Peter:

And then, but I always tell them like I know I can get a really good shot in probably 10 minutes, but I was like 20 minutes, I can get it done. Like can you give me 20 minutes? They're like yeah, 20 minutes is good, 20 minutes is like. Anybody can get 20 minutes out of somebody, no matter how busy they are usually. So my thing is I always ask for 20 minutes and then, while we're shooting, all my thought process is I got to get this done in 20 minutes, but let's see if the if the person's having a good enough time that they like push their schedule back. And I'm telling you nine times out of 10, they always do nine times out of 10. Cause it's fun, it's like it's great, and then I don't, and then I get the time, and then they stay, and then a little bit of a rapport develops, hopefully, um, but I get the job done and and and hopefully they're happy. That's really what it's all about. Are they happy with the pictures? And? And I've been a lot less um about what I want, more about what people want lately.

Peter:

I guess I was very strict in my artistry. I was like it's got to look like this, like I was really tough in my uh, in my early days, I think, and and uh, I'm way more flexible and I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I just look back and and I realized that I got to this place by doing this thing a certain way and I didn't want anybody to tell me to do it any other way. And I guess I still operate like that. But now I'll be like oh well, yeah, well, we could do that. You want to do that? That's fine.

Matt:

You know, I'm just trying to loosen up in my old age, that's all yeah, I think that's important and that might have I mean by the sounds of it. I don't know if that coincided with the loss of your imposter syndrome, but you know that's going to be. My next question is how your artistry has evolved over. You know two decades of doing it, but I think you kind of answered it there. Can you give me some specifics, certainly maybe on the technical aspect, of how your photography has changed or at least evolved and improved over the years?

Peter:

yeah, I mean, I think everybody listening to this if you're a photographer, you just want to get better. I mean, I, I, I bruce when I was working with Bruce Weber, he was always like I would say I love that picture. He'd be like, yeah, it's okay. You know, he was always like so tough on himself. I was like he's a fricking master disaster, that stuff. He's like the most amazing guy and uh, and talent, and I and I loved his work and I love him and, um, you know, I was always amazed by him being so, ah, it could be better. I was like wow, and I don't ever I don't say like, oh, it could be better. Like to anybody like I like, if I like a shot of mine, I like a shot of mine. Um, am I always trying to get better? Yeah, uh, but technically, you know, right now, actually, I feel really good about my work.

Peter:

I've gone through, um, you know, we different camera companies have different color. You have different field of the camera. Um, new camera comes out, like when I, when I went, I went from medium format to DSLR. It was a major change and I was like I love my medium format, but they were breaking all the time and I was like I don't want to. I just, I just need something that's more reliable. And Canon had said, hey, we want to take this camera to the market. We know you're a you're a medium format shooter, we're shoot, we're going out with a 50 megapixel. Would you like to try it? And I did. And I was like, wow, the files out of this thing are beautiful. But it had a different look than medium format. It was the 5DSR, eos 5DSR, it was the, and that was in 2015. I helped him bring that to market and I, and then I became a Canon Explorer of light that year, which was great, which means that I had been like I'm going, I'm going Canon, and I have not looked back. I mean, I love these things. I just, I got the, I went mirrorless.

Peter:

I didn't want to go mirrorless because I thought I don't want to look at a TV screen in my camera. That's weird. I was like forget it, I'm not doing that. I don't want to look at a TV screen in my camera. That's weird. I was like, forget it, I'm not doing that, I don't want to do it. So I kept the five DSR um for as long as I could and until people were just like he's got to just try it, just try it. And then all of a sudden, the little eye detect thing went over there and I didn't have to recompose my shot to to to focus in. My eyes were going. So all of a sudden, the autofocus was better and I was like wow. And then I was like I'm in.

Peter:

And then the EOS R came out, which I liked, but I was still not like working. I didn't have it dialed in color wise and when the EOS R5, the R5 is just like beauty, you know. So I love it. I mean so, I love it. I mean I love it and and I think my work looks great and I'm also finishing it really well, I'm processing with capture one and, uh, I just think the, the finishing touches I'm putting on it right now, is like, really, I really think it's singing and, uh, I'm really I I said this to myself not even like to tell like people, I just was like wow, I love my work right now and that that feels really good as an artist especially. Really I said this to myself, not even like to tell like people, I just was like wow, I love my work right now and that that feels really good. As an artist especially, I've been doing it 24 years and I just, I still love what I'm doing.

Peter:

I got a um sitting over there, a um Arca, swiss F metric eight by 10 camera, because I wanted to start fiddling with film and I got so into it and I loved it. Yeah, I loved it and I shot a selfie. I shot a selfie with a uh, remote air thing, trigger thing, and I screwed it up and it became a double exposure and it's like the coolest shot. I'd love that shot, Um. And then I realized that I have to go to the lab and I have to rely on somebody else to print the thing and I don't know how to tell them what I want and I'm not going to go into the dark room again and that's so I basically put it away for a little bit and every time I press the shutter on that thing, it's like I don't know how much it costs to process in the film and everything. It's probably. It's crazy, so crazy. So yeah, but I'm gonna get back into it. I've got it. I'm gonna shoot it more. I want to take it out and shoot it.

Matt:

I'd love it's fun, isn't it? What do you do? You do any um other photography? I mean, maybe I know you want to get into back into large format. What other photography do you do outside of headshots? Or are you just headshots is work and my passion at the same time, and you just that's all you do. Or do you do other stuff in your spare time?

Peter:

I'm horrible, like my camera sit in the studio, like I I go out of the suit like I mean I'll bring a camera with me somewhere, like I guess if I go away. I always feel like I should bring a camera, but sometimes I just don't. Um, I really only like shooting in the studio. I feel like I should go out and shoot other stuff and I just, yeah, I don't do it. But I sail, I race sailboats all the time and the sailors are always like they know I'm a star, they all follow me on social, they know I'm taking pictures every day and they never see me with a camera and they're like you never have your camera. I was like, no, leave that in the studio.

Matt:

Tell me about lookability. We talked about trustability, approachability, squinch, make up words. What is lookability? I like making up words. Why? Why do we care? Yeah, um clearly everything with ability at the end yeah, yeah, some of it.

Peter:

So if it makes sense, I'd put ability at the end of it. But lookability for me was simply this like, how lookable is a picture? Like, if pictures are made to be looked at, then how long do you want somebody to look at it, to take it in? And lookability to me and I use a scale one to ten on that too is an image's ability to secure attention from an onlooker. So how long does that take? Like, what is that? You know, um, if I look at an image, and you know we're, the thing is we're looking at so many images these days. All of us, like we're just seeing them everywhere. It's just plastered. Everybody's taking pictures and they're posting them and put them up and you're looking at them.

Peter:

I look at a lot of images. I have to judge 60, some odd headshots tomorrow, and I got to look at each one and critique it and it takes hours and I do it, though I do it on my group and I needed it. I came up with lookability really because I needed it. So somebody's shot will be on the chopping block. It's a photographer who's being coached by me and I see this headshot and I say to the group. There's probably a hundred people on a zoom and I'll say, on a scale of one to 10, what do you think the lookability scores for this? But I don't even have to say it because my, because we said it so long, my web developer built it into the site, so the shot comes up on the screen and every single person in the room can click on a scale of 1 to 10, the lookability, and then it'll give you the average. It gives you all the shots, it shows you everything and then it doesn't show you, like it won't show me the score. So I'm not persuaded by what the score is. I don't see the score till I, till I judge the lookability of it. It's really cool.

Peter:

So I use it as a tool because photographers will get very mad at me and like, quit my coaching and never come back and be like. He's so mean. And I'm very particular about what I want on my site and what you guys, uh, what the photographers out there are bringing to the table. If they're not playing my game and their work is not up to snuff and I don't think it is I'm going to tell them. But with outlookability they just get pissed because they wouldn't believe it themselves. They'd be like how could Peter think this is crap because of this or that's not good? And I'm not mean, I'm just blunt. I'm just like look, you're not going to get anywhere if it's easy.

Peter:

So I won't sugarcoat what you're shooting or what you're doing and I'm going to pick apart the expression. I'm going to pick apart the makeup. I'm going to pick apart the clothing. I'm going to pick apart the body positioning. You know whatever's going on with it. There could be a number of things that and it's a learning experience for everybody in there.

Peter:

But lookability gives me the ability to have everybody behind me and have my back, because if I say you know it's a seven in lookability, it's like a seven, I'm like seven's pretty good. That goes in your portfolio. Eight, nines and tens go in your portfolio. They probably never leave. A seven is like yeah, it's good, put it in the portfolio. Six and below like average shot, like not good, like, not good, like, not like and and when. When I talk about a shot and it gets that kind of lookability, it backs me up. So we used it for that. But that's it's. It's gone on into you know the photographers using it for their own portfolios. I was like give yourself a score, like think about it, think about you, don't. You don't want to have anything below a seven in your portfolio. You know, lookability wise I love that.

Matt:

I love that word because it's you know, you talked about today's just society with images everywhere. Unless we talk about social media specifically, it's that ability to stop someone scrolling right, and we're always, we're after that, scrolling, scrolling. Oh, what's that? You know? I think about lookability, a bit like that, right.

Matt:

Um, what do you in in that kind of, in that subject and I don't want to dive too much into social media because I've talked about it way too much on my episodes but what do you think, what do you think are the kind of the most significant challenges that are facing photographers these days? And it might be social media, I guess, but you know, you, you see so many, you coach so many, and you've been doing it for such a long time, over over a couple of decades, but in those couple of decades, so much has changed, right, not just in the photography space, but just in the way we process photos, um, throughout the population. So, at this moment, what do you see as kind of the current and the biggest challenges that photographers have? What do you see as kind of the current and the biggest challenges that?

Peter:

photographers have. Well, I think that you know there's I think it's really education of people what a good picture is, cause I and I think it's also, you know, when a photographer there's some look, anybody, people do it. A ton of people pick up the camera, say they're photographers and a ton of people have you know, billy, everybody's got a camera in their phone, so it's like they are all photographers, like we're all photographers out there. What's going to make the pro stand out? What's going to make that pro special? What is somebody going to say, hey, I want to pay for this, I want to get that person to photograph me. What is that? How do you grab something like that? You, you, how do you get grab something like that? You know, how do you get the person I mean in our space? You know people are doing AI headshots and stuff like that and I just think they you know they look like crap in there, but they're getting better and eventually they're they may be really good, but I don't think my client that wants a Peter Hurley headshot is going to go do that kind of thing, but I think the guy who charges 99 bucks is going to lose his job to AI. Yes, you know.

Peter:

So I think that you have to stand out with your art, um, and you have to, you have to work, you have to work at it and then, and then, if you're doing it as a business, you have to get people in front of your camera. That's the other end of it. That's really difficult. Um, you have to have the business hat on. That's something that nobody ever told me. Like I was like wait, I want to do this as a business, I need a business hat. But I didn't know any business. I mean, I had never run a bit, I never did anything. Like I still feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants with this stuff. Um, you know, I, I, my jobs before becoming a photographer were I delivered beer for Coors in the summers from a beer truck, I taught sailing and I bartended and that's it. And I modeled, that was it. So I never had, like I never had a real job or had any business experience whatsoever, and I was like I got to figure out how to put you know my wife got pregnant with twins and I was like I got to figure out how to put you know my wife got pregnant with twins. I was like I got to figure out how to make this work before the business took off. So I like didn't have a choice.

Peter:

But I think getting people in front of your camera and having a you know that work ethic and that business mindset, I mean that's it out there. I mean, if you scroll down my Instagram feed or whatever, the whole, every other thing is about mindset, cause that's what I, I stop and I listen to that and I want to you know that, and then I save that or whatever. So that's the things I get are like that. And then, and then my wife sends me the cute puppy stuff. So every once in a while that creps. I was like why do I have to? Because she sent me that. Now I got to get this in my feet. Um, you know, and I get the workout stuff and you know that that kind of stuff, but you know it's you got to work on yourself first and I think that's the ongoing project for life. So if you if somebody doesn't see it as that like, if you can't get up in the morning and do what you need to do to get somebody in front of your camera to, you know, advance your career as an artist, then you're not going to be successful and you're going to be banging your head against the wall and it's going to be difficult. If you get up, have a passion for what you do and go to work and figure out something to do every day, to to go towards whatever that is that you want, it's going to happen. I mean, if you just do it with a positive mindset, like everybody knows that, like it's just, it's just tough, when you know there's that voice inside your head that's not thrilled to do You're, you're fighting with yourself and and everybody does it, even the, even the people that are the most successful, like it just happens, like that's just life, Like we're, we're, we're designed, like that we're just not. Um, stagnation is not a good thing.

Peter:

I, I have this thing called motivational Monday. I do a zoom every Monday at 10 AM and I and I said this Monday it was like get busy, getting busy. You need to get busy, getting busy, because action creates so much for you to stay out of your own way with negative thoughts, negative patterns. You know there's nobody coming in my studio. I don't have any money coming in from taking these pictures with this camera. You know all that negativity can build up and and uh, if you get into action, you'll, you actually will be able to sidestep some of that.

Peter:

So I think I just realized when I got busier and I used to have like avoidance of the gym and stuff like that, I'd be like, ah, I'm not going to go. You know, I I have an on off switch with me. It's either on or off and I'll do the on switch when I have a big race or something, but then when the race is over, it's off and I'm like I don't. It's very hard to get it back on and until I hit like a super, like slob weight for me which is like up there, like I get like like my boat, that I race like the, the weight you're supposed to.

Peter:

Most of the guys that are competing are around 185 pounds, maybe not. Nobody really competes at the Olympic level above 190. Some of the older guys do, anyway. So I try to get under 190. It's almost impossible, so I try to be like right around 190. So when it stops, I immediately jump to like 205. And then I'm like shit, I got to race in a couple of months. What am I going to do? And now I'm working out like a maniac, because I've got, you know, racing all summer. So I'm like, oh, I get it anyway. Um, I don't know how I got there, but I got there, wonderful.

Matt:

I wanted to um, kind of finish off a little bit uh soon about the importance and you mentioned it because of I don't know business now so at least marketing and being able to brand and sell yourself. I don't think it's as serious as maybe we, a lot of us, put as much emphasis on, but it's. It's something that doesn't get taught enough as photographers and if we're not going to business school which we don't need to, really a lot of it's kind of learned by rote and mentorship and just kind of learning by doing, and one phrase I was talking about and what you just mentioned is ship it. Just go and do something, just get off your your backside, go and do it, get busy, being busy and just learn as you fail, right. But there are some things that we obviously kind of need to know as photographers is is, is brand important for you and, if so, kind of how do you teach marketing photographers as a brand or at least giving business advice when it comes to certainly beginners starting out?

Peter:

I mean, yeah, you obviously have to brand yourself. You need a look, you know I. I mean, yeah, you obviously have to brand yourself, you need a look. You can see somebody who's not investing in their brand right away by going to their website and being like this looks like it's from like 1990 or something or whatever 2000 or 2015 or whatever. And I'm not one to talk because we don't change my website that often, but I've been on it, I've been changing, changing pictures actually, which has been nice, um, and try to do that. Obviously, I'm active on social, which I love, but it's so different, um, with you know what you're capable of doing now, so it's like everybody's gonna.

Peter:

There's so many things that you could potentially do, but you got to get outside your box and try some stuff. If you're not creating content for your prospective clients to see, how are they going to find you? What are they going to do? How are they going to? You know, and referrals are great, but if you're a hermit, it's really hard to get people in front of your camera so you can generate the referrals. You need to be to get known in your area for what you do, whether you know or get you know an agent or commercial clients or whatever, um, and the other thing is that, just like I said before, um, these companies are, are I wouldn't. I don't know if they're fickle, but the you know, for you to have longevity as a photographer, um with with clients is amazing. Like, if you have a situation like that, nurture it, because that's that you're really fortunate interesting.

Matt:

Yeah, I think that kind of consistency and relationship building is is underrated in in this space for sure, and probably even more so in the head, in the headshot space. What is it about? Kind of the? We're going to finish talking about mindset now, but what is it about your mindset over the last 10, 20 years? One thing about that that you think has really helped you progress and be successful and be so well known as you are now?

Peter:

I mean, I, I, I know what it is. Uh, I just don't tell this story very often, but I guess I could tell it. Um, it's kind of hard not to tell now, but um, so I was when I was 13, I won a world championship in my sailboat and uh, I was, I was uh, I was like not supposed to win and dad wasn't there. He was like working that day, but it was at my club. It was they host this little world championship. But I could say I'm a world champion because I won, won twice, uh, but I won this one.

Peter:

And uh, he comes into the parking lot and he and he he doesn't see me and I got the trophy and he was late. And I see him walk up to this group of people and they're like he's like, and he's like hey, who? Group of people and they're like he's like, and he's like hey, who won? Who won? And they're like what do you mean? Who won? Peter won. And he goes oh, peter Van Dine won. Great. And Peter Van Dine was my sailing instructor, he was supposed to win. But they look at him and they go no, peter won. And he's like what? And he's like, they're like no, you're Peter one and he's like what? And it went as soon as it hit him he went nuts. I mean, he just got super excited. He's high-fiving people, hugging people, like super like, just energy Like you wouldn't believe that I had never seen before. Um, he was tough. My dad was not easy and I'm. He finishes with them and he spots me as I'm walking towards him and he calms down and he comes over to me and he goes good job, son Pats me on the back and that was it. And, um, I didn't know it then, but I had this running thing in my brain of for years that I was just wanting to make him proud. I was like I want to see that. Why did? Why did he do that? Why didn't I get that ever again? It's hard to tell the story, but, um, so he's 81. Is he 81 now? I think he's 80. Yeah, he's 81. Um, and I, I I had it running. I didn't realize what, why I did what I did. I think I'm just wired this way because of this.

Peter:

So, anything I take on, whether it was the sailing, whether it was the photography, it was a no-holds-barred attitude of getting to the top of that thing, no matter what I had to do so. It was disciplining myself. It was just ingrained in me from a very young age to get that, and I think it was also his work ethic, my mom's work ethic. It's that kind of stuff. I mean, you guys, if anybody listens, they all, everybody has this stuff in their lives, that's built into them and you just don't know what it is. And sometimes you, once you discover it, you're like, oh my gosh. So I told him. I said, dad, you know, the one thing that just kept running around through my mind was that episode when I won the world championship and you, like I saw you get more excited, like I watched it happen. I never and he's like it's always been tough love, peter, you know, and he was always the guy and there's a lot of parents like that you want your best for your kid Like he didn't know, like I'm a parent, now I get it, I, you know he he thought you know, let's, let's make Peter tough. You know to get that. And I think it was also his work ethic, my mom's work ethic. It's that kind of stuff. I mean, you guys, if anybody listens to this, they all, everybody has this stuff in their lives that's built into them and you just don't know what it is. And sometimes you, once you discover it, you're like oh my gosh. So I told him. I said, dad, you know, the one thing that just kept running around through my mind was that, honestly, it worked. I thanked him, I was like I wouldn't, there's no way, if he had sugarcoated that stuff I wouldn't be here, and and that was where it came from. So you know, it's funny that you ask I try not to, you know, bring that story up much. But um, and it's not that I try not to, it's that I just discovered it, like I told him, maybe, I don't know, this winter it was a couple months ago. It was like maybe in like February or something like that that I told him that. It was like that I realized it. And ever since I realized it it's been something that I've been so, um, well, like I kind of it's a, it's created a lot of wonder in me. It's helped me a lot. It made me realize the fiber in my being and stuff like that, and and it and it and it made me realize how important parents are and parenting and what we go through when we're a kid. And then I like immediately put the mirror on myself. I was like what about me as a father with my twins? You know how am I and I've been, I've actually tried to. I'm like I better step it up. But at the same time, at the same time, he made me who I am. Like without him doing that, I wouldn't have this. So I'm not like I understand that he's tough, but I don't know if I would have wanted him not to be any other way, because I wouldn't want to be a softie or not able to excel at the things I want to excel with at. You know, it's just a, it's a the fire under the butt, whatever. It is that the desire that somebody has. If they're unstoppable, they're unstoppable. And if you're unstoppable mentally, internally, nobody can stop you. I mean, you just can't. And I saw it at the highest level in the Olympics and I just had this internal thing going on. I was like, yeah, it's not, it's not gonna, not gonna happen. So I've been very fortunate to be able to accomplish a lot. I guess I still have more to go. I still don't even think I'm there yet. I don't think I've even done anything. You know, that's the other thing, that's the other flip side of the coin, you don't even take credit for the stuff that you have done. I got a. I got an award at the at the un for lifetime achievement in photography and, uh, and it was the first time I really won anything. I mean, I won some other awards, but I don't enter my work anywhere. I don't really, you know, go for any awards, and it was like the first time. I could like sit back and go oh man, shit, I must have done something.

Matt:

It's cool yeah, we certainly have, and you certainly inspired and made many, many, many people happy out there. So, um, yeah, please keep it up. Do you find that? Do you find that you're still trying to make your dad proud? Then? Is that still playing into your psyche?

Peter:

I think I did a lot. No, I think I, I mean think that's. I think it's moved on to me. I mean now I'm just hoping he hangs in there. I mean he's like 81 and he's, he's like he's, he's a hard liver, uh, you know he he's lived hard, um, but he's a great guy and he's uh and he's doing fine. So I hope you know, I mean I don't know what the lifespan of people are, but I think I think I had, I had to have that out with them and I had it. And then I the things that meant the most to me were being successful in business for him, because he was a successful businessman and being a successful sailor. And I got, I also got nominated this year. I don't know why it's all happening this year. I'm not that old, but I got nominated and got awarded. I got accepted into the hall of fame for sailing in my in in the hall of fame in uh, where I'm from in New Jersey. So he was at that event. He was at the UN when I received my award and I think I, I, I think now I can say that I've, I've, I've done that.

Peter:

Unfortunately, my mom passed away, so she hasn't gotten. Well, she saw this stuff happen from above, but, um, you know, I I still. The one thing is that that it's the combo, right, like the, and my parents divorced when I was young, so it's the combo of both of them, um, and and I guess you also have other factors like siblings and stuff like that. I have two brothers and had some stepbrothers, but there's stuff like that which are in the formative years I still haven't figured out. I know my mom ingrained a bunch of stuff in me that I haven't.

Peter:

It's like almost like it's hard to go Like, since my dad's here, I can lay into him and tell him, but my mom, I can't figure out what the stories are that that you know. I know I learned a ton from her, um, but I haven't figured out those yet. So maybe I'm still working on myself, but I feel like I feel like there's also an age thing that when you get to be 50 something or whatever I'm 54 now Um, there's a kind of fuck it out, I'm, I'm over this shit, you know, it's just like you know yeah, how do we.

Matt:

so how then would you translate that mindset into photographers that you coach? Are you kind of have tough love with them? I mean, maybe you intimated that a little bit when you're critiquing people's photos, but do you kind of translate that same kind of tough love to to the, to the mentees that you have? Well, what?

Peter:

I do is they need it. Yeah, they need to know when they're doing well, they need to know that it's a good show. They need to understand and I and I point them out in front of the whole crew in front we have we have 20, over 20 000 photographers that have logged into the site, I think, that have accounts on the site, and there's 1100 1200 right now that are in my actual day-to-day coaching program and um, and we, you know, I have standouts and I show, I show people and they and they aspire to be like these people and I make them associates of mine and then ones that give back become mentors and I want those mentors to step up to the plate and mentor the other one. So we have a good, really good system. Um, I call it an AFZ. It's an asshole free zone. So any, any photographers that aren't there for the right reasons leave. They leave on their own. I don't even have to kick them out. They just don't belong in my, in my group. It's a lot about mindset. It's a lot about the, the, the level that we've created in.

Peter:

If you look at headshot photography globally, it is based on headshot. We also do a portrait portion of it. Um, I'm going to Portugal to teach portraits, which will be fun, um, but the? I have a race over there, so I always try to race and then throw a regatta, so this was really cool, um, but yeah, no, it's, it's. It's their growth, like when they really make it. It's so rewarding for me, so I'm pushing them.

Peter:

The one thing that I do tell everybody is that I will. If you'll entrust me with your, with with. If you have a goal of being a good hedgehog retirement, you trust me to teach you, I'm gonna do it. If you have a goal of being a good headshot photographer and you trust me to teach you, I'm going to do it. If you put the work in, I'm going to get you there, and if you're not there, then it's not on you, it's on me if you put the work in.

Peter:

But I think I figured it out pretty well to how to get people over the hump in this kind of stuff, and a lot of people have been really successful. We've gotten a ton of photographers who started out with nothing. Their first goal is always to get over $100,000 and we get people there and then we try to get them over 200, some are over 300. I've got people over half a million, but there's a work ethic involved with those people that get to the 100, 200 mark and the people in the crew see it happening and they're the perfect example and I'm just trying to lead and stay in the foreground with these people, but I want to lift them up, the other ones up behind me. It's worked out really well and it's fun. I enjoy it. I love it. It's great seeing people do good work right off the bat.

Matt:

Well, I've really enjoyed this. I've really enjoyed this conversation. So thank you so much again for joining me. I love your energy, I love your presence and, of course, I love all your art and your work. And hopefully soon I think it's going to be soon I'll be in your hometown, so hopefully I can come and say hello and do this in person, maybe.

Peter:

Yeah, but I'd rather come visit you. It's cooler there. I mean, that's a cool spot, that's an amazing spot on the planet. I should come see you. But yes, if you get here, we're going to hang for sure. It's been great. I'm so glad you had me on. I had a blast.

Matt:

Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and keep up the amazing work and hopefully I'll see you soon.

Peter:

Sure Thanks.

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Matt Jacob

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