The MOOD Podcast

Why You Should Embrace Imperfection - Govinda Rumi, E058

• Matt Jacob

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Govinda Rumi is a Bali-based photographer, known for his unique approach and ability in capturing authentic and unseen moments.

In this episode, Govinda discusses his photography breakthroughs and shares insights on how to see the unseen and think about the moments no-one else thinks about. He also talks about maintaining a distinctive voice in a crowded digital space and the importance of intention in creating authentic images.

What we discuss:

  • Govinda's philosophy of finding beauty in imperfection
  • How to transform a picture into a work of art
  • Key principles of lighting and composition
  • Preserving artistic integrity in the era of social media trends
  • Balancing technical skills with marketing strategies


Find Govinda's work here:
Website: https://govindarumi.com
Youtube: @govindarumi
Instagram: @govindarumi
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Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.

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Speaker 1:

The most I've done was 8 weddings in 11 days. I don't want to do this anymore.

Speaker 2:

What was it about photography initially? That had you excited.

Speaker 1:

First time that I was a good photographer was when. What makes a good wedding photographer? During weddings, I try to tell the side stories as well. Weddings are not meant to be perfect.

Speaker 2:

What is the future of photography when it comes to social media and how we see ourselves as artists through the lens of social media?

Speaker 1:

For me, social media is a good and a bad thing. You need to be unique. You need to have your own voice.

Speaker 2:

Give me an example of good and bad mindset.

Speaker 1:

For me, my mindset in photography is all about having fun, and that mindset is very simple but not a lot of people have.

Speaker 2:

What is your secret to happiness in the photography world, but in your personal life as well?

Speaker 1:

The secret of happiness.

Speaker 2:

Govinda, welcome to the Mood Podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Absolute pleasure to have you. Where do you come from?

Speaker 1:

I was born here in bali, actually, okay, yeah, and I lived here for most of my life. I lived four years in jakarta, but the rest just here well, welcome back. I know you've been traveling a bit recently, so yes, so my job brings me almost everywhere and for the past like five years, except the pandemic, I've been like two weeks abroad, two weeks in Bali, okay cool.

Speaker 2:

I wanted to start with just a very simple question, but I guess it can lead to a lot of other kind of conversation topics, the question being what makes a good photographer?

Speaker 1:

For me, what makes a good photographer is having photographs that people like and we enjoy ourselves making.

Speaker 2:

That's it. That's it, and how does that apply to you and you being a?

Speaker 1:

good photographer. So for me, like I knew, the first time that I was a good photographer was when people wanted to hire me. So I knew I was good, but I didn't know that I was that good. So when people started to hire me, I felt like, oh it's. It has elevated my confidence more and in a way, I felt that I could evolve more from that.

Speaker 2:

Can you explain a little bit like when? When was the first time someone hired you, how did that feel? And then how did you evolve?

Speaker 1:

So, so, so, actually the first time my mom told me I was a good photographer. But yeah, yeah, as moms do, yeah. I couldn't trust her 100% on that. But once I put it out on Facebook back in the day, I made a Facebook page and everything I posted stuff there and out of the blue, people started to hire me from that I was only 19.

Speaker 2:

And I was like, oh easy, back back then. Yeah, good for you. Yeah, what was it about photography initially? That had you excited and why did you kind of pick up a camera in the first place?

Speaker 1:

funny story is my dad is actually a painter but he tried to teach me, uh, drawing, painting, but I never had the patience to sit down and just draw. So I, I, I tried other things to to make art, and that's photography, where you just press a shutter and the art is there and just a few tweaks and edits in here and there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so how do you, how do you make your photos into art? Because there is a difference, like there's an image and then there's an artistic image, or would you think that all photography is art?

Speaker 1:

some photography is, just as it is, like documentary, like the new stuff. It could be art also, but the main purpose is more like to see facts and to see what's happening in the world. But for me, art in photography is involving, uh, what we know about photography, composition, lighting, uh, the sense of art itself and the moment of the people involved. Yeah, I shoot people, so that's important for me. So the, the expressions that they make, the mood that they feel when they are photographed. Combining all of the, all of that, that's for me.

Speaker 2:

So what makes a good photograph for you In Gov's photography and you post a photo or you create a photo that you're proud of, you're happy of? What are the parts of that photo that you think, okay, that's good, that's good, that's good and it all comes together?

Speaker 1:

To make a good photograph, you just either need one of these lighting, composition and moment, so you can just get a nice moment without thinking everything. People say, oh, that's a nice moment. And then if you shoot something with a great composition, like a perfect symmetrical photograph, that's a good photograph. And then another one is a good lighting, a beautiful sunset oh, that's a good photograph. But for me, is a good lighting, a beautiful sunset, oh, that's a good photograph. But for me a great photograph is combining all those things together in one photograph. So getting each part of these components into one photograph creates a great photograph for me interesting, yeah, and I have to agree with with most of that.

Speaker 2:

I think, and there is, in my opinion, there is a difference between bad, good and great photograph. And a lot of people often tell me well, no, it's subjective, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? Well, yes, that's when you're thinking about how something moves someone, how beauty is perceived by someone, whether it's an aesthetic piece of art or not. Um, but there, for me there is. It's important to have a line between bad, good and great, because, you know, then people have something to strive towards and how to learn and how to progress, right?

Speaker 1:

yeah, bad is pretty universal for me, like if you shoot something too dark, except if you intend for it, it's a bad photograph. Like you don't see the expressions, you don't see anything. And if you shoot a crooked photo without any intent, also it's. It's the same thing, like yeah, it's really important intention.

Speaker 2:

Yeah how do you, how do people know what your intent is? How do you get across in a photograph what your intent is with that photo? Because sometimes people post photos. I post photos and my intent is one thing and then the audience takes it as something else and I don't know whether that's like oh, that's an interesting way of looking at it, right, but even if it's different from my intent, so that kind of can be a good byproduct. What, what does? How does that apply to you? How do you create an intent behind your, your images?

Speaker 1:

well for me, uh, my intent first is to communicate what my uh, in this case my client wants into a photograph, but putting my own personal stamp on it. So that's my first intention. If the client is happy, they feel oh wow, I, this is so me, this photograph is very me. That's when I feel a success in my intent. So whatever the public sees about this photograph, it doesn't really matter to me. What's the most important is the person I photograph, the person, my client. That is the most important thing for me if I want to make something that people hire me for. But personal project is another different matter.

Speaker 2:

Well, talk to me a bit more about the personal projects. How would you approach that?

Speaker 1:

So personal project is how I see myself in my photographs. So that's what my intent is. So what do I feel when I took this photo and I don't care about what other people think In social media it might get less likes than my usual work, but I'm happy with it. Give me an example For me like photographing just the mundane stuff that for me is important or for me is memorable, but other people might not know that it is important to me interesting.

Speaker 2:

You talk about what's important to you. I think that's really nice to hear. It has to come from within first, not for validation external, externally right. And you talk about how photography is something that renews and replenishes your soul. I think those are your words. Um, can you tell me, explain a little bit more about that, how it's so deep to you?

Speaker 1:

um, photography has been a huge part of my life. I think that's the. When I first got into photography, I felt that, oh, I'm good at this, so I I just pursued 100, nothing else. Back in university days, I studied graphic design, so one of the subjects was photography and I didn't care about the rest. So the others I didn't get an A, only photography. I get a 100 out of 100. So that's where my focus is and because of that, I felt that if you put something 100% to it, you need to focus, that you need to be the best that you can be on the decision that I made, which is photography.

Speaker 2:

So give us a little bit more of a history about how you got into photography and what that process was. Learning it, I mean, you kind of studied it, obviously, but there's one thing about studying it and then there's another kind of challenge about actually doing it and learning it practically. What was that process like for you? Because I know a lot, of, a lot of people watching and listening to this are interested in photography, might be wanting to get into it, and they, you know, can be very overwhelmed with what's out there and how to learn and what to do and what equipment to get and who to who to listen from. Do I need a mentor? Do I? How do I pitch? What genre should I go into? You know it can be quite overwhelming. So tell us a little bit about your experience in that.

Speaker 1:

So, obviously, a mentor is very important to me, because I had a few that got me here. But beyond that, the most important thing for me is to love photography itself, because if you don't love photography, you don't have the effort to pursue it. And because I love photography, I immerse myself every day. Back in the day, I would bring my camera everywhere, probably until now. I still do so. Right now I have a small pocket camera, but back in the day I bring, I brought my DSLR camera everywhere. So that's where I practiced, I practiced, I practiced seeing, I practiced all the basic stuff and from that on I knew what I love to photograph, which is people.

Speaker 2:

In the end, and how did you get into? I mean, I don't want to label you, but your main genre, I guess, is like wedding photography. How did you get into that, and what is it about wedding photography that sparks your interest so much?

Speaker 1:

so I was never interested in wedding photography before, but I interned with a wedding photographer in Bali. His name is Gusde maybe you've heard of him, yep, yeah. So I interned with him for three months and I thought, wow, this, I could do this, because it's kind of easy for me. Yeah, it comes natural. No I don't want to sound cocky, but it just comes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but that's why how people find their style and genre right it's whatever they find easiest and therefore they're probably going to love more.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it just comes naturally, like there's people, there's emotions, there's beautiful setting and everything. It just all blends together. And I posted stuff on facebook and people hired me, so that's where it started. Sounds easy, everyone can do it. I, yeah, I try to teach this to other people and it might not work, because it's it's it's opportunity meets uh, what do you call that? Luck meets opportunity. So sometimes it just clicks, but I I know that for a lot of people it's also a struggle to to start this business in photography what makes a good wedding photographer, then we've talked about what makes a good photographer.

Speaker 2:

Let's talk about wedding photography specifically. I know a lot of people are interested in getting into wedding photography. How did, how do you break through the barrier of getting seen? And you know being good essentially and you can, you might be seen. But unless you're good over a long period, you know being good essentially and you can, you might be seen. But unless you're good over a long period, you know consistently, then you're probably not going to be that successful in the long run. Right? So how? What makes a good wedding?

Speaker 1:

photographer. So there are many layers of being a good photographer. First you're just good at photography, which I find that I most relate to, because I don't do other stuff except just posting photos that I love, and the second one is good at marketing. So some of the best photographers in wedding are people who networks a lot with other vendors, wedding planners and everything. They are good photographers because they're running all the time with wedding photography and they're probably more busy than me. And the third one is combining those two together so networking and technical skills, yeah, technically so for me.

Speaker 1:

I'm not good with networking, so I focus on the technical skills and how to be really good at it and how to stand out in these technical skills, because I know that if I talk to people and market myself, that's not my forte yeah, I'm kind of with you on that.

Speaker 2:

I think there's. I mean, there are different elements to marketing, but I haven't met any successful however you want to define that any successful photographers who are not good at marketing in some way. Yeah, right, your way of marketing is using social media right, that's still. That's still marketing, and networking is um very rewarding, very valuable, I think, if you can do it right but, some people just aren't. Don't enjoy it, you have to enjoy it as well.

Speaker 1:

I don't enjoy networking. That's the thing. Like I've seen, people stay over over time during weddings just to chat with guests and stuff, just to market themselves and drink with them. I, I just want to go home, yeah sounds like you live and breathe photography.

Speaker 2:

What, what else is kind of surrounds that in terms of your you know you talk about. Being at peace with yourself is much, you know, much more fulfilling than a quick fix at happiness that that is there a spiritual side to you that you kind of involve in your day-to-day photography I try to do.

Speaker 1:

I try to be more mindful in my photography. So you know, meditation, right, it's all about mindfulness and sometimes I feel, when I work as a wedding photographer, it's just a rush because, everything's so hectic and everything so in my day-to-day life I try to just slow down and just capture things, the mundane things that I told you earlier, and just focus on how do I, how do I really want to see these things, how do I perceive things around me?

Speaker 2:

tell us a little bit more about mindful photography in? I mean, how, how can we, as photographers, be more mindful? Because it's one thing to it's quite easy for us to say, oh well, just slow down a little bit, be more aware of your surroundings, be more aware of your intent and what you're trying to do. But, as you know, as you've just correctly said, certainly with if you're on a job or if you're on a project and you're just in a flow state and everything else you know just falls by the wayside and you're rushing it's this and this and this. How do we, how do we step back from that in the moment, not just day to day, because it's a bit easier. We can wake up and do certain habits or we can just be a bit more conscious about it when we're actually photographing for a client or we're trying to I don't know tell a specific story.

Speaker 2:

How do we, how do we become more mindful in those moments?

Speaker 1:

For me, when we photograph clients, we tend to be not mindful, so we need this practice of mindfulness, which I do in my day-to-day basis and, in a way, just shooting everyday life for me is a way to reconnect myself to why I love photography in the first place.

Speaker 2:

I think actually you've answered it already. I mean for me as well. I talk about mindful photography a lot. It helps me so much, certainly in the pressure moments, be able to just not get as stressed. I still get stressed, but take it down a notch a little bit, especially if you've got people around you. But I think the work is actually done in the dark.

Speaker 2:

The work is done at home, when you're not photographing, or with the people around you, and with habits and with whatever kind of mindfulness so many mindfulness habits out there, but meditation being one if you're able to do that over time, the results will come in the moment.

Speaker 2:

And that's where it's really important to kind of how you measure your mindfulness success, I guess. And the progress is in those real pressure cooker moments and those really stressful moments. How am I going to deal with this? Whether it's something negative or something positive, right, how am I going to deal with it? How am I going to speak to people? How am I going to speak to myself, to myself? Am I gonna let my thoughts, am I gonna let myself be identified with this perception of what I'm thinking about? So there's, I think a lot of the work, like you said, gets done when you're not in those moments. Right so that in in your subconscious and the way you're, you know you're changing your brain in those personal moments outside of photography it will come through when you're actually doing it is that, is that familiar to you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so actually, like, the thing I do is street photography, and street photography is all about getting failed shots right, yeah, and that's where I feel like, oh, I learned these things just because of the street photography that I do. So if I failed one shot, I try to fix it in another one. I see what's wrong with that shot and I try to learn every day. I try to be mindful of my shots after that failed shot. So, in a way, with this kind of process, this kind of practice repeating every day for my whole photography career, that's when it matters, during those pressure cooker moments on weddings. So when things go bad or shit happens during weddings, I I tend to know what to do because I'm used to that because, I, I'm used to being present in photography and I can see things clearly like, oh, it's raining and the bride is crying.

Speaker 1:

What? What should I do? I know what to do. I, I know to capture what kind of moments because of that. Capture the bride crying, yeah, yeah crying. Or just even, uh, as photographers, we are communicators as well just comforting her and say, oh, I get great pictures, even it's when it's raining. So yeah, that's that's the confidence we need to transfer to the couple that or the clients that hire us.

Speaker 2:

How do you approach your wedding photography? Like a job, then? Are you, like, very involved with the bride and groom and the people, or do you kind of take a more of a backward, you know bird's eye view step and you just kind of more of a reportage and documentary instead of, in your face, working with the, the people very intimately? How do you? How do you do?

Speaker 1:

that. So it's. It's kind of a mix. So I I tend to work well with people I'm comfortable with, so I try to communicate with them first, before the wedding day, so when I know the grasp of what they do and what they're there, they want, what they like, what their personalities are. It's easier for me to be what you said earlier on the day, where I take a step back and just see everything flows. So I tend to be less controlling when on the day, if I know them better, so I just ask them what they like, do what they like, do what they love, and I'll just capture who they are as a person how do you?

Speaker 2:

and then, how do you piece that together? And we I'm going to talk about storytelling in a minute, and maybe this is a good kind of conjure into that, but how? Certainly with wedding photography, I think the storytelling aspect is is not easier, but it's a little bit more obvious because it's a wedding, people are getting married, the story is love right and you know.

Speaker 2:

So you could kind of use that in a way easier with with images. But when you're not doing your wedding photography and maybe you're teaching people, maybe you're doing a street stuff, tell us a little bit more about how you go. You know that maybe mindful way of thinking how to tell a story with images.

Speaker 1:

During street or during.

Speaker 2:

Anytime.

Speaker 1:

Any, yeah, Uh, storytelling for me is uh.

Speaker 2:

Let me put a bit of context into that. We talked a little bit about bad, good and great photography. In my opinion, one element of going from good to great is being able to tell a story, and I don't really talk about story. I think it's very difficult to tell a story with an image. Yeah, you can provide context and allow the viewer to be curious and maybe make their own story, or you can add copy, which will provide, but in terms of an image, what I mean is, yeah, we talk about storytelling, but I think you understand what I mean, but, um, for me that's that's one element of the difference between good, a good and great. So how do you go about telling stories with your images, whatever it might be? Weddings, street portraits.

Speaker 1:

So for me, if I do street photography, it's not about telling the story of the event itself, it's telling the story of myself. Okay, yeah, so when I do street photography, it's telling my experience, what I see during the day, what I want to incorporate, what I want to remember. So that's, that's how I approach, uh, storytelling. And that in a way connects to to to wedding photography itself, because in weddings you always see the bride and groom kissing or they're putting the ring together. So these are all mainline stories, but during weddings I try to tell the side stories as well.

Speaker 1:

Like they, she was hugging her grandma before the, the ceremony and all those side notes on on the side is what I see from street photography, because it's just street photography. We see everything. We see not only the thing we want to photograph. For, for example, I went to the Tower of Pisa in Italy. I just don't see the tower itself. I see all the things that people do around, these silly poses where they're posing with the tower. And that's the same with wedding photography. We see only the bride and groom, but surrounding them are these elements that that supports their wedding story itself.

Speaker 2:

And timing when you talk about, I think I read somewhere on one of your pages how there's no rush with life and timing and photography is the same and timing is so important, just as it is with life, and we talk about opportunity and luck, kind of the timing of both it can mean the difference between success and failure, right With photography, taking images, how do you think about timing or do you just let things be and trust your instinct?

Speaker 1:

I trust my instinct, so I just shoot whatever in front of me. So there's no timing in pressing the shutter itself or whatever. But for me the word timing is probably me being there is is timing itself. So me being there is the luck and opportunity coming together because I got the job. I saw this wedding, wedding uh happening and just putting it together and I have to be there present and just uh, soaking everything in and just capturing everything in together, and that's the story that I want to tell how many interesting stories do you have, as in the event of the weddings itself?

Speaker 2:

there must I mean how many weddings have you photographed? Hundreds, hundreds so give me a, give me an interesting story about one of those weddings that you were able to tell us. Has anyone left the groom at the altar? Has anyone had arguments?

Speaker 1:

There are arguments, but mostly confidential, like if I tell the story now they're probably. Oh, that's us. Has anyone not got married? No, no, but some like family stuff.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, families.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that happens right. But the most interesting for me was the raining part, actually like where the bride was crying. But after the rain happened I asked them just to dance in the rain and they were happy. And that's one of the most memorable weddings to shoot when they're just enjoying stuff. Whatever happens during the wedding, they are enjoying it. That's the most beautiful thing to capture because we see like people get worried, get anxious if something goes wrong in a wedding, but don't be, just embrace everything. If things go bad, just laugh at it and have fun.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that's that's for me, the most memorable, most memorable weddings are like those yeah, yeah, sometimes it helps having someone else tell you that is when you're, I mean we. We got married here in bali and it rained. For how long did it rain?

Speaker 1:

for two hours, no it was so much longer, it felt like eight hours, um.

Speaker 2:

But you know when you spend so much money and you want everyone to have a good time. And you know when you spend so much money and you want everyone to have a good time and you know all you're worried about is them and your now wife and making sure everyone's happy. And when it's raining and you've got no cover and everyone's getting soaked, you think, well, everyone's going to be miserable. But actually it turned into something, you know, very special. After I calmed down, yeah, after I told the wedding planner she was not doing enough to fix it, she was like how can I fix the rain, get some cover, get marquee or something? She's like, yeah, in 30 minutes notice? Not possible. But yeah, they end up becoming kind of the stories themselves, right? Or the funny moments.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what I like to say to my clients is weddings are not meant to be perfect, and there's this beautiful japanese phrase, wabi-sabi, which is finding beauty in the imperfection. So that's also a way of how I approach weddings, where it doesn't need to be perfect. But the story is there, the love is there, the, the presence is there and that's the most important thing do you follow the same principle with your own photographs as in?

Speaker 2:

they don't need to be perfect.

Speaker 1:

Yes, because, uh, what I love to capture are those in between moments. We probably want to see people kiss, but I want to see people what happens after that? Are they laughing, are they do they have a snort in their mouth or something like those are the moments I I aim for and that's where I feel uh are most memorable and where I could get those great photographs.

Speaker 2:

I was talking earlier, something unpredictable now you travel a lot as well, right. Is that more of a personal thing, or do you do client jobs abroad? Where does the travel thing come into?

Speaker 1:

it a little bit of both. So when I first started traveling, people notice and that's where they say, oh, I want to, I want to follow your travels, I want to be photographed at the places you've been. And that's where it started to hit off. And for me, traveling also has been a huge part of my life, because back when I was small, I learned how to read maps earlier than counting. Wow.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I know the shape of Italy, the shape of Japan, the shape of Australia just by looking at the map, before I knew what two times two was Wow. And that's where I knew that, oh, traveling will probably be a big part of my life in the future, and it certainly did.

Speaker 2:

So what type of photography do you do when you travel Street? Yes, unless you're working for a client, mostly street.

Speaker 1:

So it's probably the same thing that I've done back home, where I just feel, where I just capture the, the, the story that I want to tell, the, the things that I experience around surrounding me. So I haven't done like those proper travel photography where they wait for the golden hour just to capture that perfect angle of the, the mountain or something. I just go as it is. I could just go in the middle of the day and just experience as it is. I don't wait for those uh, perfect lights for, like the landscape photographers, yeah do you so?

Speaker 2:

do you find people enjoy that type of photography, enjoy your kind of output, with regards to not having that approach and just kind of shooting what you see all the time?

Speaker 1:

uh, is this like the audience or? Yeah, your audience yeah, like actually, uh, I had people wanting me to shoot their wedding before I started wedding photography, because I posted this before before I I started my wedding photography. Uh, what do you call that? Uh? Business yeah shooting like people and how I capture people is what attracts these future clients also, and they knew me from that state of my time in photography before the the wedding interesting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so what you know speaking, let's talk about your audience a little bit. Why do you think that those that follow you do follow you? What is, what is it in you that people see and enjoy, do you think?

Speaker 1:

so there there are two types of followers, like the recent ones are mostly photographers, because I do a lot of uh uh, education stuff and content creating towards photographers. But on the art creating stuff, I feel like it's something they resonate with because I feel in wedding photography mostly people just show beautiful people and what I show is more than that. I could shoot many different size of people, very diverse, and they all look happy and they all look comfortable in their own skin and that's that's probably why people resonate to my photography. If you're shy, if you're maybe out of proportion, like uh, body wise, I still make them feel comfortable and feel great about themselves. And, like 99% of my clients probably say, I'm very awkward and shy, I don't enjoy photographs, but when they finish a session with me they can't believe that it's them in the pictures.

Speaker 2:

Another thing. Obviously I've done some research on you and looked through all your content and stuff, which is fantastic. Something that kind of really took my interest was the way you say you maintain like a childlike sense of wonder in your photography and in your projects. I think that's really important these days to not essentially not take yourself too seriously, right? We as photographers, certainly in such a competitive industry with social media and validation and wanting to be seen and heard, we can sometimes get very overwhelmed with it and take it very seriously. How important is it for you to to maintain that level of happiness and childlike status which garners, I'm sure, curiosity? Right, and that's what we want as photographers. How do you maintain that and how do you is? Do you think that's important to encourage future generations and people which are starting in photography to do?

Speaker 1:

for me, the most important thing that happens because I maintain this childlike uh what do you call that childlike properties is, uh, the longevity of my career. Because if I don't have this, this childlike feature in me, I would just fade away. And that's what I see with most of the photographers in my era, where they just come and shoot and just be there to get the job done and not be and complain afterwards and just not be happy. And that's that's where. That's not where I want to be at. I want to go to shoots and still be happy. That's why I feel like photography for me, is like a playground, and because this is a playground, I want to play with it. I want to play with stuff, I want to experiment, I want to keep learning and keep experimenting and just have a great time learning and keep experimenting and and just have a great time. And that's uh that, for me, is important for the long longevity of my career, like I feel fantastic, and what is that longevity and future of career look like?

Speaker 2:

where do you want to get to and how do you want to evolve as a as a photographer? As a photographer.

Speaker 1:

So back in the day, I shot a lot of weddings Like maybe the, the, what do you call it? Not the worst, but the most I've done was 11 weddings in 8 weddings in 11 days, which is which is crazy.

Speaker 2:

And after, that I felt yeah.

Speaker 1:

I felt that I don't want to do this anymore. I just want to shoot, probably once a week, but I'm happy doing it, or even like once every two weeks, and this is where I maintain the quality of my work and the quality of my life as well. So I try to do things full-heartedly, mindfully, with each job that I have, and that could happen also because of this childlike experience also where, where I'm interested, actually interested, I'm actually excited, I'm actually want to do this is it's like when you go to wedding, it's not like, oh, it's another wedding, but oh, yay, there's a wedding just next week.

Speaker 2:

So that's the kind of mindset that I want what is it that you are actually excited about, though? What is it about, specifically? Photographs, or wedding photography, or whatever you're doing? What is it that you focus on? That, you, you. What is it that drives you essentially? Is it the output? Is it I'm gonna get some amazing images from this is it your experience? Is it just using a camera because you like the technical side of things? What is it?

Speaker 1:

I know you're a commercial photographer and as a commercial photographer sometimes you need to concept everything. You need to have a solid pre-production before a shoot. For me, wedding you don't need that because on the day itself you don't know what happens. And the surprises, the spontaneity, it's what excites me and similar to street photography when you go shooting street you don't know what the results would be at the end of the day and that's, that surprise is sort of your prize at the end of the shoot and that's for me. Wedding is very similar in that sense.

Speaker 2:

So where do you want your photography to get to? How do you see your photography over the next five, 10 years evolving? You know, in this space where we have to navigate social media, AI, you know, competitors, et cetera.

Speaker 1:

If, talking about AI and everything in between, I feel photography should just be in a traditional sense, where we just capture moments, we capture emotions, we capture what you felt on that photograph, and that's something that is something that you cannot replicate through AI. If we post a photo of AI, we're standing on the top of Mount Everest and you actually climbing the Mount Everest. It's a different feeling for the person in it, for the photographer taking it as well. So, if we just keep to the core of, photography should be about memories, should be about what you felt in life. Photography will always survive in my opinion.

Speaker 2:

But how do you see your photography moving forward is are you just happy with the way things are in your own business or do you have plans for utilizing your social media following to sell things or to do workshops or to, you know, build off what you already have?

Speaker 1:

for me, my natural progress would be education, because I love sharing things to people, and that's my current side project as well right now, where I'm actually making a workshop in Bali in August where I invite overseas photographers where they probably would never have met, connecting these Indonesian photographers here, and mostly not only indonesian, even southeast uh, southeast asian photographers, uh yeah. So that's my dream for the future, where I could make this consistent workshop where I just invite these overseas photographer into bali what does that workshop look like?

Speaker 2:

is it theory based? Is it practical? Were you out in the street?

Speaker 1:

how did mostly theory, but what I love about these workshops is about their mindsets, like learning about the mindset of these photographers and, of course, seeing how they shoot. It's like probably theory, not so much because it's more for beginners, I feel, where mindset is more important for intermediate and up photographers, where they could elevate their work even better if we know how these uh, great photographers think yeah, so actually it's going to be almost like a networking.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, so you don't like yeah the outcome of these is actually networking.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, these attendees, they meet together and form a friendship that could maybe last years to come, and that's that's what I did. That's where I got here. Also, maybe I don't like networking to future clients, but I actually like to talk to other photographers and that that's why I have photographer friends in Japan, in Europe, in Malaysia and most of Southeast Asia. I have a friend there and that's where we connect and when I go there, we could talk about how things are going in our own countries, about how photography trends and futures, talking with them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and futures talking with them, yeah. What is what is um? What is the future of photography when it comes to social media and how we see ourselves as artists through the lens of social media?

Speaker 1:

for me, social media is a good and a bad thing. Like I see a lot of good photographers now, because of social media, it's easier for them to make good pictures like their idols, but in the end they're just copycats, whereas back in the day we need to research who are these photographers and how do we keep on learning. With social media it's just easier. So people are, just for me, lazier. They just see something that is trending or up there with a guy with million followers, I'll just copy his work, but that doesn't work. Well, if you want to survive in photography, you need to be unique. You need to have your own voice, and that, that unique voice, is what attracts people to you. For me, it's not about you copying just the great works of other people.

Speaker 2:

What is the Indonesian social media market like? Because I don't really. I mean, I'm trying to integrate more and get more involved with, I guess, indonesian audience, but I see them mostly on TikTok, you know. I don't see them so much on, I guess, instagram photos and images. In terms of photography specifically, is that a? Is that a correct kind of perception, or how do you kind of see? Tell me more about it, essentially, tell me more about Indonesian. It's such a big country there everyone is on social media. What do they like to see? What is the general photography audience like in Indonesia?

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, I have been around, I've seen, like, what photographers want in Japan, in Europe, in Indonesia. For me, indonesia, they're still focusing on presets. Yeah, they're still focusing on gears love gear yeah, they love gears.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's where I feel like Indonesians should should realize that to be a great photographer, it's just beyond these basic technical stuff. You need to get into the minds of your favorite photographers and expand your horizons and and learn more things about the minds of your favorite photographers and expand your horizons and and learn more things about the way of thinking, not just the way of creating, by these technical stuff so, then, we have a responsibility to help educate in that that space, and that's why you kind of gone into mindset workshops, essentially yeah.

Speaker 1:

So for me, I got into the point where I'm today is because I've followed these or I joined these workshops. I've seen photographers from from all over the world. I joined workshops from overseas photographers. That's where I know why mindset is very important in photography, because this is how they actually stand out from the rest and and essentially have their own voice so what can we do as photographers to enable that mindset, enable a better mindset and keep creativity fresh?

Speaker 2:

you know what? What is it in your workshops that you're actually going to teach or talk about that is helps you in terms of mindset and that we can take away as an audience in terms of how to be more present or how to have a better mindset in terms of vision, creativity, storytelling, etc.

Speaker 1:

You know the artistic side of photography yeah, in workshops, all these photographers probably have a different reason why they became photographers, right? So mindset for me is a very important thing as photographers because, as we talked about earlier, people in in their earlier states just focusing on the basic stuff like presets, what camera they use and everything. Mindset is another level, and that's what I've experienced myself where I've joined these various workshops, and this is where I pick up the best bits of each photographer and put it together as my own. To know how mindset is important for you, you need to join your first workshop because that's where you know, oh, this photographer became successful because of this and that's where mindset comes in.

Speaker 2:

Can you be a bit more specific for me, like give me an example of good and bad mindset?

Speaker 1:

For me, my mindset in photography is all about having fun.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

And that mindset is very simple but not a lot of people have, when they think, oh, photography is a very serious job, and I don't agree with that, because photography should be professional but it should be fun as well. And this is a kind of mindset that I would teach in my workshop and how to incorporate it in the shoot that I do and how to communicate with the clients and with us just how to have fun.

Speaker 2:

So how do we keep creativity fresh then? How do we kind of get up each morning? You take photos almost every day, every day almost every day. Is that a recipe for creativity?

Speaker 1:

then it's just to keep putting yourself out there, keep pushing those boundaries, uh obviously, shooting every day might not work for everyone, so I just think I feel that people need to find their balance. It might not be photography. You could have another hobby, such as probably watching movies and incorporating what you see, build up your visual library from these images, these scenes, and that's another thing that you can improve your photography in. Or, in another case, you could go to art exhibitions and just see nature, because for me, most of my ideas is just from people watching. Yeah, like I see these kids running on the beach. Oh, probably if my couple did that, they would have fun as well. So it's those kind of examples for me.

Speaker 2:

I think people, you talk about inspirations, and I think being inspired, as any artist or in any form of life, is very important, but I think, um, inspiration can come in many forms. It doesn't have to be well. You should go to a gallery or you should look at a photography book, right? They're fantastic and but they might not work for some people. You can be inspired just by other humans, right? Other people that may be in front of your camera may not be in front of your camera, but at least you can learn from right, and that's what inspiration is is learning from someone else, essentially it's learning from experience.

Speaker 2:

Experience could be anything for me yeah, yeah, okay, let's, let's switch gears. Well, let's talk about gear okay, people want to know.

Speaker 1:

Let's get this out of the way.

Speaker 1:

I don't really want to talk about it, but tell us about you know what you use to shoot, how you use it and why you like it so I change gears every two months, probably really yeah, yeah, yeah, because, uh, yeah, the thing is, with a big amount of social following as a photographer, people want to lend you stuff, and that's what I've been experiencing for the past year probably. Before that, I was a Fujifilm ambassador From 2019 to 2022, I've been using Fujifilm, which I thoroughly enjoy. But going forward, I feel that, in a way, trying gears is like trying new toys, and that's another childlike feature of mine, where, if I try this, oh I probably found another thing to look forward to.

Speaker 1:

So that's, that's kind of a way for me. So yeah, like people say, oh, you don't shoot weddings with ap, apsc cameras, but I, I do, and there's another charm to it. And you shoot weddings with a bokeh lens, and there's another charm to it, and you shoot weddings with a bokeh lens and there's another charm for it. So these kind of approach are different, but in a way that keeps my photography fresh.

Speaker 2:

What is the first bit of gear that someone should buy if they're looking at getting into wedding photography?

Speaker 1:

For wedding photography you need something with a big aperture, because weddings tend to go like late in the night or you should in a dark church or in a dark room, and that's where this big aperture lenses come in. So you at least need one. Like for me, my go-to lens is the 35 1.4 and the rest I usually probably just use a zoom lens okay, yeah, all right, that's gear out the way.

Speaker 2:

Okay, software, software, what do you use? 100 light room, yeah, oh, all light room, no photoshop or anything like with the ai coming into light room.

Speaker 1:

I used to have a hard time when, like, videographers are in the frame of my shoot, but now I just use the generative ai and just erase them and it's job done. So I I tend not to be annoyed with them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, anymore yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I didn't. Yeah. Yeah, you know you've got to work with videographers as well, and and other wedding planners and all that kind of stuff, right can?

Speaker 1:

often get in the way. I'm sure, yeah, they, they can get in the way. But for the last wedding I did, with the ai happening in lightroom right now, easy, yeah, I'm just happy, like it's easy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah have you seen the made with ai um label? Yeah, yeah have you had that happen to you? Yeah, no, no, have you no, I use spot removal in photoshop. I don't really use generative. I never use generative fill um sometimes content aware fill, but rarely. I don't know if that counts as ai I guess.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for me the light is probably just erasing stuff, not adding stuff.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, I don't add anything and yeah, it's an interesting. I'm kind of happy that that's come in. But also, I think some, some, some incredible art can be created with ai, or at least ai supplementation right onto onto or removing stuff from photos. So yeah, I don't know how I feel about it, but but at least something is being, I guess, recognized in terms of not legislation, but some kind of controls over what can be done with AI.

Speaker 1:

It's like it's making our jobs easier, because back in the day you need to remove one by one. Now it's just like a generative thing and it's gone.

Speaker 2:

Oh it's fantastic and people forget that AI has been around for longer than just the sudden surge of large language models like ChatGPT and stuff. Lightroom has been AI since Lightroom was invented. It's now elevated.

Speaker 1:

Now, it's just elevated.

Speaker 2:

yeah, God knows where it's going to be in a few years. Talk to me about the word freedom. What does that mean to you? How to? How do you define freedom in in gov's?

Speaker 1:

world. So freedom for me is probably the core of my life. So I, I do, I take things everything with freedom. So freedom to create art, freedom to go wherever I want, freedom to just live the way I want to live, and it could be anything, it could mean anything. So I want to live a peaceful life, but that's freedom for me to have that choice. I want to shoot, uh, quirky couples. I want to shoot like things that are not meant to be shot. That's freedom for me. Like most I have, uh, I have a couple who didn't want any close-up shots, just shots from white, wide shots, and they just want to be very small and that's that's another freedom, like I have these freedoms in my jobs and that's what, what, what it means to me.

Speaker 2:

It's like the core of everything I do do you think, how do you get freedom if you're working for someone else?

Speaker 1:

so the most important thing for me is communication, so we know what kind of freedom we have, how, how big is the freedom? It's still freedom for me. So let's say, do you mind getting wet into the ocean to have that? To have them say, yes, it's another freedom. If not, it's fine's fine, I live with it also. So at least I ask and I have the freedom to ask them.

Speaker 2:

So is it that those ideas and that creativity is usually stemming from you or from the client, or just varies?

Speaker 1:

So this is another word. This is where freedom also comes in is I'm free to interpret what stories they have. It's my freedom to tell it in the way that I want to tell it. So in a sense, it's a collaborative experience with us. They tell the story, I translate it with the freedom that I have.

Speaker 2:

So then how can other photographers get to that point where they're able to feel a level of freedom but also be able to find a unique style or a unique philosophy behind their practice?

Speaker 1:

It's probably more easier said than done, because the theory is just be consistent with your work and people will know that that's your work. But as a photographer, in the beginning it's probably not that simple, because you need to live also, you need to earn something, and for me it's finding that balance where you still shoot for the couple or the client but you still have something for yourself which people might recognize you for. And if you keep focusing on your consistency, on your own branding, that's where freedom might come in in the future interesting.

Speaker 2:

So then, what is the? What is your secret to happiness in in the photography world, but in your personal life as well? The secret of happiness.

Speaker 1:

Well, for me, photography equals happiness. So, okay, that's no secret. Yeah, so that's basically it. So if I am able to capture things in front of me, I'm happy. So that's, that's my, my definition of happiness that's it nothing else not that I can think of. Yeah, wonderful, probably like peace and and feeling at ease and and uh, but that all comes from photography in some way and in life probably I, I can meditate, I can feel relaxed, I can feel uh other things by, by maybe slowing down, maybe not taking life too seriously.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just the life we have in Bali yeah, it's easier to do it here where you're surrounded by, I guess, peace and friendliness and happy people and acceptance yeah there's always. There's always exceptions to those circumstances, but, yeah, it's a nice place to be able to try and, you know, garner that peace, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay, well, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure. Where can people find you, find your work and see more of who you are?

Speaker 1:

Just Instagram, govindarumi. I have other platforms, but just that's the main one. Instagram's your favorite. Uh, it's the perfect landing landing page, because that's where I post really my, my work and everything it is a good landing page, yeah, so what are we watching out for in the future?

Speaker 2:

workshops, workshops, more workshops, more workshops.

Speaker 1:

English speaking workshops in Bali. Okay, yeah, and when are they kicking off? August. You said there's one in August, but it's already sold out, so maybe like next year wow, good for you, fantastic.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much again. It's been a pleasure talking to you and hopefully we can get to go and shoot together yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much, nice meeting you.

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