The MOOD Podcast

Crafting Perfect Celebrity Portraits with Matthew Jordan Smith, E062

• Matt Jacob

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In this week's episode, renowned portrait photographer Matthew Jordan Smith reveals his secrets for connecting deeply with his portrait subjects. He discusses his meticulous research and personal interactions that bring out their true selves, offering a behind-the-scenes look at his unique workflow.

Drawing inspiration from mentors like Gordon Parks, Matthew also shares how personal projects and stepping out of comfort zones have revitalised his creativity, providing both inspiration and guidance for navigating the modern photography landscape.

What we talk about:

  • How the digital age has reshaped the photography industry
  • Why authenticity matters when building your own brand
  • The importance of developing a unique personal style
  • How to balance creative vision in a social media era

Find Matthew's work here:
Website: https://matthewjordansmith.com/
Instagram: @matthewjordansmith
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Matt Jacob:

Who is your favorite celebrity that you've?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

photographed. Favorite celebrity of the moment.

Matt Jacob:

Tell us some insights to how the fashion photography thing works and how people can get into it.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

The first thing anybody needs to do is study the first part, fashion. There's so much more to do today and everybody's doing it.

Matt Jacob:

And it's easy to get left behind.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I think when you are pushing the boundaries and doing things that give you a bit of fear, that's when you are pushing the boundaries and doing things that give you a bit of fear. That's when you are at your best. My goal on every job is to try to make an image that may become iconic. Now, that's hard to do.

Matt Jacob:

Pinpoint, one lesson that you've learned along the way that you believe is really important to pass on to other photographers.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Absolutely. This is a big one.

Matt Jacob:

Welcome to the Mood Podcast, where, each week, I bring you inspiring conversations with top artists and creative minds from various fields, exploring their personalities, purposes, processes and philosophies. Whether you're a seasoned photographer, an aspiring artist or simply someone who loves to learn and be inspired, this podcast is certainly for you. I'm your host, matt Jacob, and thank you so much for joining me in today's conversation. Our guest today is the highly regarded American portrait photographer, matthew Jordan Smith. Matthew is renowned for his exceptional work in fashion, beauty and celebrity photography, with an extensive portfolio that includes shooting for major magazines, advertising campaigns and working with some of the most well-known personalities in the world. Beyond his impressive body of work, though, matthew is also an educator and motivational speaker, sharing his insights on creativity, photography and the business of art with audiences around the globe. Currently living in Japan, he continues to make significant contributions to the global photography community through his work and his teachings.

Matt Jacob:

In my conversation with him, we explore Matthew's journey into photography from an early age, discussing the pivotal moments that shaped his career and how his move to Tokyo in Japan has influenced his artistic vision. We talk about his experiences working with celebrities and prominent figures in the fashion industry, uncovering the challenges and rewards of capturing the essence of high-profile subjects. Matthew also shares his philosophy on art, the evolution of photography in the digital age and the balance between creative passion and the business side of photography. Also, there are a few peeks behind the curtain of his experiences, with some fascinating people, sharing with us some stories that he remembers over the years and some that really shaped the artist and person he is today. Matthew's humility, kindness, wisdom and experience offer real, valuable lessons for us as photographers, artists and creators.

Matt Jacob:

Whether your interest in the technical aspects of photography, the creative process or the challenges of building a successful career in the arts, this conversation I had with him definitely touches on them all. So now I bring you Matthew Jordan-Smith. Matthew Jordan-Smith, welcome. So much to the Moo Podcast. It's really great to have you. Thanks for joining me today.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's good to be here. Thank you for having me on.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, no problem. I wanted to kick off with a question that's purely of self-interest, but I'm sure it'd be of interest to other people who is your favorite celebrity that you've photographed?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Oh man, there's so many. My favorite celebrity I think it changes from year to year depending on what's going on Favorite celebrity of the moment, I guess for me would be Zendaya. You know, she's like the hot one right now for sure. She's fun, she's young yeah, I mean, who does not? She's incredible, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, at the moment I guess it's in zendaya, but I've got a lot of favorites actually, like no queen, latifah tyra, I mean because they're all cool in so many different ways, you know. So it'd be hard to say the favorite.

Matt Jacob:

Aretha franklin yeah, I got so many favorites out there yeah, we're gonna get on to a few of them later. I mean, I'm guess. I guess you're not gonna tell me who the biggest diva was that you photographed oh yeah, I'll tell you that one for sure.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I think the the biggest diva is probably the one who deserves to be the diva, and that'd be aretha. I think she's probably the biggest diva I've ever photographed. You know who, you know, want her respect and all that, and I've got so many stories of aretha. You know I photographed her for like 13, 14 years so, and then she passed away in 2018. But those last uh, 14 years of her life, I worked with her and she was a diva, like, uh, many people think, but in a great way. How?

Matt Jacob:

do you then go about working with someone like that? I mean, aretha may be slightly different because you worked so long with her, but if you've got someone like zendaya on in the studio for a day or however long, I guess it's just an hour. I mean, tell us a little bit about that, but tell us more about how you, how you go about capturing as much as you can of who they are connecting with them and who they are as an individual, as an artist or whoever they might be.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I always dive into research right away when I know I'm going to photograph somebody who's well-known, and whether I've worked with them before or not, it doesn't matter. I'll dive into research to find out what I don't know about them and I'll look for things that are beyond the normal stuff, like beyond like what movie they've been in or whatever project they've worked on. I want to find out something about them as a person, because that's what I use when I'm photographing them that real life experience that we all go through, like, for example, where were they doing some big event like the Olympics, which just happened? You know, were they there? Did they watch any of the games? You know who's their favorite gymnast, or all that stuff that we all are curious about.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Or, like you know life events like if you lose somebody in your family or a holiday that we're all celebrating Food's a great one. I find those things that people like that they identify with as a person, because you know there are people beyond just celebrities and talk about that as I shoot them, and that creates this connection. It's worked for me for 37 years yeah, amazing.

Matt Jacob:

Well, let's go back to the beginning of those 37 years and tell me how it all started, how you fell in love with photography and what your journey began like.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I got to thank my father for that. I got a picture of him on the side here, so I'm looking over at the picture of him. My father gave me a camera as a kid and taught me how to use it, turn the bathroom into a makeshift darkroom. And I was born in Brooklyn, new York, and we moved to South Carolina, in the South of America, when I was seven and at that point it's like I felt like I didn't fit in in the South.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I picked that for my accent at the time my strong New York accent at the time and my father gave me a camera and taught me how to use it. It was a way to almost combat that feeling like the odd man out in this new environment. And from that point on I grew up playing with the camera, learning more about it and fell in love with it. And at first it was just this love of photography. Didn't think I could do it as a career, but then things just evolved and evolved went to art school. Uh, left art school, went to new york, worked as a photo assistant to a lot of great fashion and beauty photographers, and that's how it really began for me fantastic, and where are you at now?

Matt Jacob:

I mean, we're going to touch on japan a little bit later, but tell us what you do now in terms of your photography and your photography business I'm now a photographer based in Tokyo, tokyo, japan.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I'm in the States a lot, sometimes too much. I just got back from spending a month in the States zipping all over, you know, la, new York, detroit, Ohio, just plugging away, um, just plugging away, and I go now to the states about four times a year. Four or five times a year depending on what's going on. For the year before covid I went like 10 times a year. So now it's much easier and I like this pace. I like, like you know, four or five times a year. It's fine, I can live with that, but 10 times is too much to go back and forth because you're always living in the airport and out of your suitcase.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I know that feeling. Where was the emanation of your move to Japan and kind of, why did you move over there? What was there for you?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

For me. I came to visit years ago just on a whim. I was going to like visit a place I've never been before and I came to Tokyo and I'm like, oh my God, I was living in New York at the time and I thought that New York was like the center of the universe. Then I got here and I'm like, wait a minute, this is cool. So I came back to visit I kid you, not man Like 12 times over the period of like maybe 15, 20 years. I came back to visit like 12 times and I said one day I'm gonna live here and made the switch and said, okay, you know what? You have one life. You can't wait to like put things off. And uh, 70 years ago actually eight years ago, in november I made the move and I wish I'd done it sooner. I love it. I was just about the lifestyle. I love the lifestyle here and that was really the reason for the move.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, fantastic. I think Tokyo is almost the Asian New York, right, it's, it's just such a cool. It's just such a cool vibe. People are really nice, it's very quiet, polite, clean, but it still has great vibe, great energy, great kind of cultural differences. So, yeah, I don't blame you at all, I must have.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Yeah, I mean I love new york yeah, yeah, of course I love new york and always will. But there's like I mean I just came from there, like last week, so it's fresh in my mind of being in the city and going around there things about new york you can't get anywhere else like a broadway show. You can't get that anywhere else but new york. But the lifestyle here I love it.

Matt Jacob:

Tell me more about the lifestyle here. I love it. Tell me more about the lifestyle and photography in Tokyo. How has that changed your outlook and artistic outlook on photography ever at all?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's changed me a lot. As a matter of fact, I think that I'm more of a perfectionist living here because of the culture here. Everything's done to this perfection level, everything and it kind of blows you away because there's things you take for granted about life back in the States. And then I come here and I see the level of dedication and perfection that goes into everything. I don't care from the small to the large. Everything is precise and beautiful and as an artist whether you're a photographer, any of the arts I think living here or being exposed to life here makes you see things differently and I needed that. I think after being in the States for so long, it was a wake up call for me to push, push, push the craft even more and I love that about living here.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's a very tangible place Like they still have. They're still into albums, like vinyl bars, extremely big here and there's like the the only um you know place to buy albums in Tokyo. Or the big place to buy albums in Tokyo is like Tower Records. It's the only one left in the world and it's packed all the time. Magazines are still king here, still big and everywhere. Like they used to be, I guess, in like maybe the 90s in New York City. It's kind of cool to see that, that tangible thing, and how they hold on to the tangible.

Matt Jacob:

Which I guess plays quite nicely into photography. They enjoy the prints more, they enjoy books more. It's not as kind of digital heavy right.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Right, the print thing's a little bit different. I do miss that part because it's not a culture that puts pictures on the wall, that hangs images, except, of course, me. I have my pictures on the wall, but most people in Japan don't do that and it's a cultural thing for the most part. A lot of places are very clean and sparse, so you don't have a lot of that on the wall and pictures on the wall like you'll find in the States, but of course there's a lot of room for advertising and editorial and all those great things in Japan.

Matt Jacob:

But I'm also interested in how you look back on your early work now and how it's changed over the years being in the industry for so long.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's funny Now living here, I look for different mediums to show my work on. I guess the way I show my work has definitely changed quite a bit. Before I was just printing an image on whatever paper I could find and putting in a frame like I have behind me. But now my exhibits in Japan are on different materials, like washi, japanese paper. But the washi has more texture to it and it's kind of interesting. You'll see like the fiber in it and I love that.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I'm printing on like a traditional Japanese scrolls that rolls out for a long time and those are done on the same paper that was used for doing the scrolls thousands of years ago, doing the scrolls thousands of years ago. So it's changed me in that way to see beyond what was normal. And some of the work that I produce now doesn't fit into social media. Everything we see now is on a device. So it's going to this little square in some way or rectangle in some way and we create work now for that. But what's cool about living here? You think about outside that box and create work to go outside that box. And that's kind of cool because the work I'm doing now, the work that I'm really enjoying doing now does not fit into social media in any way, because it doesn't. You can't show it, you can't appreciate it, so you have to go out and see it, like in a gallery, in a museum, and I really enjoyed that.

Matt Jacob:

So how does, then, social media play into your strategy, as, certainly on the business side of photography, is that something you think about consciously all the time?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

All the time. All the time, and it's funny it's taken over in so many ways. I had a meeting this morning actually, and uh, with clients and I did a uh ad campaign within like the last month um, actually a month and a half, right before I left to go to the States and they're they're about to launch uh elements of it online and they're about to launch elements of it online and they're planning all. Then they want me to repost once they post and they want it to be done at a certain time. So all those things are a big factor.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Now, not only that you post, that you post things at a certain time, a certain way, after a client post, because I can't post things, cause under NDAs, things like that but it's it's changed our world. Like now we're not just showing our work, we're doing things like you know, showing ourselves, which back in the day you didn't do so. Now we are in front of cameras, you're showing behind the scenes as you're working. That's now a big part of it, cause that goes into the social media part and I I feel like we're now, like you know, almost like the, the, the actors were like uh, on camera and just you have to be like not just a photographer, but you got a great be a great uh person in front of the camera as well. You know speaking. Sometimes I'm speaking on camera for clients, sometimes I'm behind the camera shooting.

Matt Jacob:

It's just another world now hi, just a really quick break in the podcast to tell you about something that's been a game changer for my own work. You know I'm all about creating content that's impactful and visually stunning, and a big part of that is thanks to Artlist. I use Artlist for all the dramatic cinematic music you see in the trailers and that brings all my other videos to life, and their massive library of high quality stock footage and sound effects is honestly a lifesaver. Whether you're a filmmaker, content creator or photographer, artlist has everything you need to take your projects to the next level. What I love most about Artlist, though, is how easy it makes finding the next level. What I love most about Artlist, though, is how easy it makes finding the perfect asset. I'm super lazy, and their platform is super user-friendly, and the quality of their music and footage is just top-notch. It doesn't matter if you're working on a big project or just something small. Artlist certainly has the range and the quality to make your work really stand out. Plus, everything is royalty so you can use it however you like without worrying about the legal stuff. And because I believe in sharing the good stuff, here's a little perk for you Use the link in the description to sign up for an annual plan and you'll get two extra months free. It's a great deal to keep your creative juices flowing even longer.

Matt Jacob:

All right, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, I think almost we're becoming. I mean, for someone like you and me who remember life before iPhones, before social media and remember photography before that, it seems it's more. I mean, I don't know I'm not going to speak for you, but I've just found it so difficult to find to become natural at it, if that makes sense, to become kind of consistently organic with social. Just I just still don't understand it.

Matt Jacob:

I just still don't understand social media. I have some I've reached out to so many people over the years like just help me, I don't understand what to do. I want to use it because I can see the power in it as a tool. But you know, I don't want to show my personal life. I don't mind speaking in front of camera like this, but I don't want to show my home and my family. I don't want to do that and I don't believe that's necessary. But I definitely agree with you Like we have to show behind the curtain a little bit for people to have that interest and therefore people to maybe follow you and therefore people to maybe engage with you, and therefore we can get more exposure and maybe more jobs and more just, I guess, fulfillment with our work. Does that resonate with you at all?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

it totally does and I, I don't know. You know, I feel like maybe once we, when we we figure things out, it changes again. The algorithm changes or whatever is, like, you know, the it thing for the moment. You know, right now it's reels, maybe it's going to be back to pictures at one time or who knows, man, but it just changes so fast and it's like fashion, consistently changing all the time. And you know you do your part to stay, you know, true to yourself and put your work out there.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I talk to other photographers around the world all the time and everybody feels the same thing, like you just want to create beautiful work. But I think, with things like AI coming in, the showing behind the scenes is super important to show that it's a real person. Even before I got on this podcast today, I'm looking at my phone and there's a thing on, like the news about an image of a politician back in the States and there was this thing oh, it's a fake image, and they had to prove it was a real image. And that was like cropped, they had to show the original picture, show it before it was enhanced a little bit with, like you know, just you know, adding little contrast and brightening up the image that we normally do, but I'm like, wow, that's where it is. People feel like, oh, is this real? So I think people seeing us creating images behind the scenes gives this little like a behind the curtain image and proves that it's real yeah, I think, um, I think the ai is a is.

Matt Jacob:

I mean, I've talked about this, this so much and again, it's changing so rapidly, but I think the legislation really, really has to catch up. It's it's got so much. It's got so much distance to go the legislation, because we're in these points that you're just talking about where we have to prove that something's real. It should be the other way. So much distance to go the legislation, because we're in these points that you're just talking about where we have to prove that something's real. It should be the other way around. Right, there should be an authentication label that we should just be able to just qualify straight away. So that's what worries me on one side and and therefore, like you've said correctly, it means we just have to work harder, which which is okay. But you know we were talking off air before the conversation.

Matt Jacob:

So I just want to take photos, you know. I just I want to. Yes, there is definitely ego there. There's definitely like purpose of fulfillment that I want to be recognized for my photography, but that's it. I don't want to be doing social media, I don't want to be doing marketing, I don't want to be doing admin and business and all that kind of stuff. But hey, that's just where we're at, I guess it's all in.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's just there's so much more to do today and everybody's doing it and it's easy to get left behind.

Matt Jacob:

Um, and you can kind of goes into my next point. Next question is what advice would you give yourself? You know, 10 years ago, let alone maybe 20 years ago, 30 years ago, I mean you've seen such rapid change in the industry. I'm keen to hear kind of how you look back on it now. Maybe social media is one of them. Right, get on that earlier or be better, whatever it is. How do you, how would you look back on that now? What advice would you give yourself, would it?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Oh my God, I mean looking back on it now. My advice to myself would be to jump in early on things, because for me, I know back in the day you're tied to what you do and you're not, I guess, trustful of things. You're like, oh no, that's not going to be big, that's not going to take over, or I don't need to do this thing called Twitter you know Twitter or X or whatever it was you know to experiment and be open. That'd be my, I guess, advice to myself if I could go back 10 years, like, oh, jump on things right away, don't wait just because you don't know if it's going to take off or fail or not. You just don't know. Totally agree with you.

Matt Jacob:

I was put off social media for so long because I just didn't agree with the whole philosophy behind it. But yeah, I do regret that now for sure. You look at the photographers who got into it in 2015, 16, and they're just so integrated in it. They've got an audience from back then. But hey, we've learned other lessons along the way that happened like all over oh yeah, saw that.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Oh my god saying, yeah, we didn't know what was going. Everybody was like like what's going on and we didn't know what it was. Nobody knew what it was. And then later on we say, oh, it's all over the country. It's like you know this microsoft thing that like or the airlines got grounded.

Matt Jacob:

There was yeah.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Yeah.

Matt Jacob:

I was actually in the States at that point and luckily I got out. I don't know, I can't remember how it got out, but yeah, it was kind of amazing how a glitch can send the whole country into.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

The whole country now. We're so tied to these devices now, and every country, every company is as well, but, like you know, the airlines, all that stuff. Thank God I was not flying on Delta Airlines, but you know, because I had friends who were and they were going through hell and I was nervous about my flights but they all happened fine, thank goodness.

Matt Jacob:

And this is. You know, we were talking about ai a minute ago, but this is just another example of um, a different example, not necessarily with photography, but a different example of how ai can really pose threats to society, right, if? Absolutely gets their hands on it. I know they're trying to introduce bills in the us about legislating or like being careful with really huge um language models that are that are getting built, but, um, yes, definitely something to be wary of, and it's again. It's going to happen fast, isn't it?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

it's just everything's happening faster than we can change laws.

Matt Jacob:

That's the scary thing yeah, they'll be writing the laws for us, right, exactly, yes, yes, yes, yeah. Am I correct in thinking you've done a lot of fashion work and a lot of kind of magazine work? Tell us a little bit about the fashion industry. But I'm more, I'm more interested again peeking behind the curtain like tell us some insights to how the fashion photography thing works and how people can get into it. And what's it like, is it demanding? What is your process behind it? Tell us, just tell us, your story of fashion photography.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's funny thinking about that, because I have a lot of people who ask that question how do you get into this aspect of photography celebrity or fashion, beauty or whatever and I think the first thing anybody needs to do is study the first part, fashion. You got to study fashion. To be a fashion photographer, you need to be into fashion, be aware of it, the trends it's a very trend oriented business. So staying on top of the trends. So as you're shooting, you're shooting the latest, greatest, what's happening you know today, not what happened, like you know, three months ago. So it's constant change all the time. And it's kind of cool being in Tokyo because you get out in the streets and you see it. You see the trends change and the trends here kind of trickle down everywhere. You see it. Every you know showing up sometimes like six years, I mean six months later in the streets of New York. That's kind of cool to see, to see those trends happen that way. So, yeah, fashion's fun and if you're on top of the trends and what's going on and all that, then you should be a fashion photographer and put you a spin on it. I kind of got bored with fashion in the States but now, living here. It's a totally different thing and it's fun and all that.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

So let's say you want to start off doing fashion photography. You start shooting your work, you put together a body of work. You want to tell a full story. It's not just like one picture, one pretty picture, it's a full collective body of work. You want to tell a full story. It's not just like one picture, one pretty picture, it's a full collective body of work that works cohesively to tell one unique story.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

And what's cool about being photographers? No matter what genre of photography you're into, you get to tell your story. That's what makes you as a photographer stand out. Your story, that's what makes you as a photographer stand out. So it's your point of view, how you see it, and I think that's going back to your other question. I give myself advice. You know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 10 years ago, it would be to follow the own beat of your drum to find out how you feel about fashion or portraits or sports or whatever genre of photography you're into. Find out what you enjoy about it and shoot your point of view on it, because that's going to make you stand out and it's uniquely you.

Matt Jacob:

I think that's really important and a lot of the successful photographers I've spoken to you included obviously have said the same thing. You've really got to know yourself first, right, and without without knowing yourself, you kind of don't know what your story or what your take or what your interests and what your voice is going to be. So there's a lot of kind of self-development first, but I'm interested in you picking it up from such a young age, having it, you know, with your father and going through kind of the early years just with cameras and photography around. At what point did you feel like you found your calling and you found your voice and your kind of niche in that?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's funny thinking back to those early days I didn't know I'd found it. And thinking back to those early days, I didn't know I'd found it. It's funny, like you know, I was trying to shoot and I'd heard people telling me like, oh, you need to have your own style. I'm like, well, what is my style? And I hear people say that today, not knowing that my style was really coming out already, because it was just me. I remember the first time somebody walked up to me in the streets of New York and said I saw that cover of the magazine and I knew it was yours. I'm like how'd you know? It's like it looked like your style. I'm like my style.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

And then I started seeing it because it's funny, because people can see it before you can see it when you start shooting things that make you feel good and that's kind of like the, I think, the tipping point. When you shoot something that makes you feel good, that's your signal that, oh, this is coming from your heart, this is what you enjoy doing. You may not even be cognizant of it, but your body tells you, your emotions tell you that, oh, I love doing this thing. And once you find that out and recognize it, do that thing, whatever it is, more and more and more, because that's your style, it's what you enjoy doing, and that style doesn't have to be about you thinking like, ok, it's, you know, I only use this lens or this light or any of those things that we might think make up our style. It's more organic and it's more kind of like your fingerprint. We all have our own fingerprint and it's you recognizing yours and using it.

Matt Jacob:

Do you worry about standing out from the rest of the competition or standing out from the crowd? It sounds like you do, but don't I mean. You just do what you do and it comes from the heart. But it's very difficult to not kind of see all these externalities around us, right?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

We're always going to see them, but I don't think about them at all. I think we are all competing with ourselves and when you are on your path maybe it may not be in fashion at the moment, but given time, it all comes around I can tell you that for sure it all comes back around you just got to stay true to yourself and keep doing that work. I think it's good to go out there and not just look at photography. Also, it's good to just go out there and look at beautiful art. Whenever I'm in New York, I go to as many art galleries as I can and look what's out there and take it all in, because it inspires me in many ways. It's great for you as a photographer, as an artist, to get out there and just show your work that's uniquely you. So get out there and make work that looks like uniquely you.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I love the fact that you go out and see galleries and museums. I mean, we're old school, I feel like I mean not many young. I may be wrong, Maybe not many youngsters do that these days, but, um, they go onto Instagram, right, that's their, that's their inspiration.

Matt Jacob:

But um yeah, tell me, um, tell me a story. I want to hear some. I want to hear something about the fashion industry. I want to hear. I want to hear something about the fashion industry. I want to hear, maybe, some story that you've kind of kept hiding. Give me some dirt. Give me something in your many, many years as a fashion photographer. I know everyone's just wanting to hear something. Give me something.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

That's true. It's funny because I started off being fashion but I'm known more for celebrity work and I've got tons of stories in both celebrity stories and fashion stories. You know fashion and beauty you know. As a photographer, you are supposed to like, you know, tell your opinion of the fashion you know, use it as like this jumping point, I think, to make your work stand out. There are times when I've been shooting a story and I'm trying to make sure I stay in tune with my view of it. But you're shooting for a client and they may have different ideas.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

And when you are in the fashion industry, you're around a lot of creative people hair, makeup stylists, you know, and sometimes those stylists today makeup artists. They can be more the big you know celebrities than you you know, because they have a bigger fan base or whatever you know. Sometimes their opinion can sometimes get involved. And that's what happens sometimes in fashion, because you have all these egos coming together and a client and you're trying to tell a story. But people want to be seen as well.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

So there's one shoot I did and there is a well-known stylist who was on the job and today there's always behind the scenes being done and the stylists want to kind of like become like the star of this shoot more than the models, and you know what we were doing and you gotta stop and like put your body in check. You know, that's kind of the thing that happens today and, funny enough, you know, sometimes these, these styl makeup artists, they are so powerful online with their presence and their followers that clients listen because they want that, you know. So it's it's. It's changed a lot. It's changed a lot. Before it was just about the fashion and the beauty and then the work, and now it's about you know, followers and who has the most followers and all that kind of stuff.

Matt Jacob:

Kind of crazy, kind of crazy, kind of crazy. It's just crazy how it's flipped right. It's just almost a race to the bottom. What about the celebrity side of it, then? That must be different, because there's one huge ego in the room and everyone is kind of pandering around that.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Sometimes, sometimes for sure, I've got so many great celebrity stories, for sure. But with the celebrities ones that I shoot a lot I've become friendly with them and we have these years and years of experience. My first book I did was on 50 celebrities and it was me interviewing them and photographing them. That was called Sepia Dreams, that first book. But there's one interview I did of Sam Jackson I think about this a lot, Samuel L Jackson and he was talking about his career and I asked him a question like when did you know you made it?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

He says that's a funny question because success comes in layers. It's not like this one day you just make it and all of a sudden you're just the man. It's not like that simple, it's in layers. He said at one point I got my first three movie deal. I'm like, oh wow, I made it, he said. But then it was quiet for a long time, to the point where he wanted to quit the business. And then things start happening little by little. It was in stages and he told me about three different stages where he hit it and then it's nothing, or you hit it for a while and then there's nothing, and those things kind of like remind you that. Oh, you got to.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I act because I love to act. Whether it's being seen as a big, successful movie or not, I love the craft. He says so for all artists. You have to love your craft, no matter what happens, if people are into it or not. Still love your craft With photography that's also important. Forget about the likes and who's like you know, seeing your content, into it or not. Still love your craft with photography. That's also important. Forget about the likes and who's like you know seeing your content.

Matt Jacob:

Love your craft because, at the end of the day, that's the most important part and, at the end of the day, that's the only thing that's going to remain, like you're not going to look on your death, you're not going to be on your deathbed and look at your instagram profile it's definitely going to. So that's really really wonderful to hear actually from from such a titan in the in the movie industry, because I think about that all the time. Like you see actors in movies, you go. Then they, they suddenly they're not suddenly, but they they kind of surreptitiously become a very recognizable face and you go.

Matt Jacob:

I know this person, they've been in loads of things, but now they're suddenly a star and it's like I don't really know where they came from. But they've gone from step to step to step to step over years and years most of the time, with, I think, the very, very rare exception of someone just having a hit movie or having a hit thing. But yeah, I would have thought samuel l jackson was pulp fiction. I would have thought pulp fiction would have launched him.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

No, no, no, it's funny. We all think about the those movies that we first saw him in. You know, um, pulp fiction is definitely one of those ones. That was just amazing for sure. But it wasn't like an easy road all the way for him. He told me this one movie where he he opened the move, says I'm the first voice you hear in the movie.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

He says he was walking down the street in New York City and it's him and the star of the movie at the time and ABI runs to this guy. This is like years ago. Abi runs up to the other guy asking for his autograph. He's standing right beside him. He says nobody asked me for my autograph or anything. Right beside him. He says nobody asked me for my autograph or anything he said. And the guy says, oh, he's in the movie also. I'm like, oh, you are. And today, to think about that kind of boggles your mind Like you know, yeah. So he let me know that, oh, this fame thing, this making it thing, it's, you know it's precarious and don't get you know all crazy about. Oh, I've made it, you know it's, it's you pay your dues and if you're loving what you do, those things don't really matter as much.

Matt Jacob:

And tell me how that kind of lesson has been applied to your career? I mean, you've must've had some amazing highs and some low lows. Can you share with us some of those and how?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

you've learned from each. Oh yeah, it's funny because I think about Sam's interview a lot throughout my career, because there are points when you go through highs and lows. I was living in New York when, you know, september 11th happened way back when, you know, 20 odd years ago and I watched the industry come to a standstill. That's a low and you work through it. I watched things happen around 2008 when the dot-com, not dot-com, when the financial crisis hit, all those things. You go through these ups and downs. I was at a point where I felt burnt out at one point in and I'm like, okay, I need to do something for for me. And I think when I start working on my personal project, it helped me get past the, the burnout feeling of just working for clients, because when you work for clients, all the time you're doing their vision and as a photographer, you've got to shoot something for you because that fuels your soul and tell me more about that.

Matt Jacob:

What is? What is any personal projects that you're working on now or any that you've been really proud of?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I always had personal projects, so my my latest one now is a book I did on aretha franklin it's out now came out this year called aretha cool. I was actually doing press for the book. Actually get my most, my biggest, biggest press, I think ever. Like two weeks ago I was on the view and they were highlighting my book and whoopie showed the book as being one of our favorite books and that was really cool. So that's a personal project, but I have many.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I'm working on another one now, like the book is out, but I'm working on another one. Even now that I'm working on another one, even now that I'm really excited about I can't say too much about it yet because it's a new venture that I'm scared my boots are shaking for sure, because it's an area where I've never been in before, but that's exciting too. I think when you are pushing the boundaries and doing things that give you a bit of fear, that's when you are at your best. That give you a bit of fear. That's when you are at your best Going to the unknown, because we have one life and you can't live it you know just being scared.

Matt Jacob:

You've got to go and put your work out there. I love it and that's the only way we get better. Right Is if we we put ourselves out there, we maybe fail, but we always learn from that failure. Or if we don't fail, great, we go on to the next thing, on to the next thing, making ourselves feel uncomfortable. I think, people, it's too easy to shy away from that now because we have everything we need in life with the most wealthy generation ever living today, and you know we just can do anything we want. If we want to go and watch 300 hours of series, we just go on to Netflix. If we want some food, we just order it on our phone. If we want to meet up with a friend or talk to someone, we just press the call button or what you know. It's just. We want to travel, we just book a flight you know it's it's so easy, now everything so easy.

Matt Jacob:

now we can just make our lives so comfortable. So it's almost such an effort, a very important effort to go and step, especially in the art, in the important effort to go and step especially in the art, in the arts world, to go and step out into the unknown, learn a new skill or meet new people or learn a new genre, or go and do something you've never done before. So I applaud you for that. And, um, just go, let's go back to the book a little bit. I read the call Tell me, tell me more about it. We, you know, want to tell the audience about what they're going to find in that book. I tell the audience about what they're going to find in that book. I've had a look through kind of the online version and kind of snippets from that and I'm intrigued. So tell me kind of where that started, how many years it's over, and tell me a little bit more about Aretha as well.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

There's so much on Aretha Franklin out there. People have seen the movies on her, they've seen books on her. Of course, her music is just ubiquitous everywhere, but there's not much on her from the point when I met her. I met her back in 2005, and I photographed her until she passed away in 2018. So because of my first interaction with her, which was 2004, 2005, and when I first met her, I'd done my research and I found out that she loved yellow roses, so I sent her yellow roses.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Before the shoot, she calls me, we talk on the phone. It was great. Right before we even met, we had to talk on the phone. It was kind of cool. So the end of the shoot, that first shoot, was great.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

We're shooting in Detroit and I give her as a gift my first book, sepia Dreams. Now that book is 50 celebrities and I'm giving a big celebrity this book and she goes through, she's looking at it and she stops and she looks at me and she says why am I not in this book? You know, put me on the spot and I'm like Mrs Franklin. Ms Franklin, I promise you in the future, in another endeavor, I'll make sure I include you in a book that I'm working on and when she passed, that was definitely on my mind because we worked together for like 13, 14 years, had a lot of great times together, I shot her in all kinds of situations and living through COVID makes you think about time differently. So when she passed away I had not done a book on her and I remember that first time we met and what she told me, the first real moment we had together, when she put me on the spot. I'm like, okay, if I'd passed away during COVID, these images and the stories would be lost forever. I need to get this work out there. So I have to work on this book of Aretha. Of my images that many have been seen but most have not been seen and the stories had not been seen. So it's mostly photographs of Aretha Franklin between those years, 2005 until the end.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's also some stories, like, for example, when you work with a client for a long time, you get to know them very well and I'm a big fan of her music and whenever I'd shoot her she would very often begin to sing, which was like having a free concert, and I shoot portraits, so I'm very close to people as I'm shooting them and a song is on playing.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

It's her music and she begins to sing along and I loved this song and as she's singing, I begin humming with her and then, before I know it, I'm singing along with her and she stops, looks at me and she says Jordan, baby, don't sing. And the whole room is like dying, laughing at me, you know, and I'm still shooting her and getting moments and trying to capture the spirit of what just happened. But it was just a fantastic day, fantastic time and and I I love all those moments with her and I want to share that with everybody in the book. So that's what aretha cool is uh, those those last years working with the Queen of Soul Not just the portraits in studio but real life stuff and her being out and at parties and me sharing just a little bit of what that is like to honor her that last part of her life. It's a book to honor the Queen of Soul last part of her life.

Matt Jacob:

It's a book to honor the queen of soul. Excuse the interruption very briefly, but I'd like to just take a moment to introduce you to a partner that has supported this podcast for a long time now, and it's Yore, a brand that truly stands at the intersection of art and craftsmanship. Yore offers handcrafted jewelry and wearable pieces of art, some of which are infused with something extraordinary Moon rock. Yep, you heard it right. Yorei's unique designs incorporate rocks from the moon into silver and gold, creating really special jewelry that's not just beautiful but otherworldly. Every piece from Yorei is ethically sourced as well, and it's locally handcrafted, ensuring that you're not just wearing jewelry, but an actual story, a piece of art and a connection to something far, far greater. Whether you're drawn to spirituality, fashion, the art of meaningful adornment, or just feeling and looking, epic Euray offers something truly special. Plus, they offer free worldwide shipping, making it easier than ever to bring a touch of the cosmos into your life. As a special offer for my lovely audience of the Mood Podcast, you can click the link below in the description and use the code ARTOFINTENT at checkout to receive a whopping 20% off your first order. So don't miss this chance to own a real piece of the moon and experience the art of intent with your rate.

Matt Jacob:

Okay, I'm done. Promise I'll let you get back to it. Yeah, fantastic. What was it like shooting her in terms of technically speaking, when you've got her in, maybe in a studio setting, easy to deal with, easy to, I mean, I imagine, over after you've been shooting her for so many years, it becomes a little bit more familiar and a bit more natural. But I'm thinking of someone maybe new, with a new client. What was, what was it like with Aretha in those early days, getting her in the studio and, and can you give us any tips on how to handle? You know people, people like that.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

you know celebrities, you know really prominent figures in whatever, whatever industry they might be in the first thing you've got to do is forget about them being that big celebrity, because before they're celebrity, they're just like you and I. I think if you go in there with that thing of oh, I'm shooting, you might feel intimidated. Being, you know, in in there with that thing of oh I'm shooting, da, da, da, da, you might feel intimidated. Being, you know, in the room with that person. And we are part of that team that makes people feel comfortable and makes them look beautiful or powerful or whatever. We are the ones that make the images that people see more than they'll probably ever see the person. So you have to know that you are a partner with them in making that image come to life. So when you have that mindset, you'll think about, okay, how do I make this person look great? Forget about who they are.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

How do you bring your vision to life? So I think, when you dive into research and think about how you want to approach the shoot and you put together maybe you put together a visual plan of what you want to shoot, and then I believe in showing that to my talent, because they may not know you from the man on the moon, but if you go in there and say, okay, this is my idea and this is how I see you being shot, they have a visual in their mind and then you guys work together to make that happen. And people appreciate that. When you just go in there and begin being director, almost, and saying, okay, this is my vision, this is what I think I want to do, how do you feel? And then collaborate together, that works very well.

Matt Jacob:

And what do you use for that? Do you use to like draw out mood boards, or did you just take sample images or I used to use mood boards and now I use AI.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Oh, okay, so, which is a great thing to do now. Now, I mean before, doing mood boards was so much harder. Now it's very simple. You can you can use AI to make your mood boards and make your ideas come to life and then show up on an ipad. Or like this is my, my sketch, it's my idea that I want to do. Today is easier than ever before. The old days you had to make sketches and you know all that other stuff and there's no excuse now no, no, it's almost too straightforward, too accessible.

Matt Jacob:

Tell me a little bit, then, about how you imbue your style into these images. I mean, like you touched upon earlier, your style is recognizable to many people. First of all, who are you Like? Who are you and how do you like to have a photo presented? We could talk technically, or we could talk emotionally, but tell us, give us an insight about who you are as a person, in terms of your values and beliefs, and how that might translate into what we see on the screen.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

For me it's definitely emotional. I want to. My goal on every job is to try to make an image that may become iconic. Now, that's hard to do. It's really hard to do to make an iconic image, but going into every shot and every shoot, every situation, I'm trying to make that iconic shot of that person. I just shot an image of a new client. This new client I just got this the other day. This is a CD that I just shot here in Japan. This is an artist who is my first time shooting, her first time shooting for this client, warner Music, japan first artist ever.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

And I want to make an impact and I put together music that I thought she'd like, because I read about her and found out that she loved a certain music. It's, by the way, she loves Aretha Franklin. So I played all Aretha Franklin music for her during the shoot. She was in heaven and I'm trying to get this emotion out of her and hearing Aretha's music made her emotional. So I don't want to pose people I don't like to pose.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

That's not my style at all. I want to get a connection with the person and through that connection, try to capture a moment that's really a real moment of that person being themselves and hopefully it's an image that will strike a court of people forever. So also, my style is very tight. I tend to shoot, like you know, chest up. That's me in my world. My entire 37 year career has been that. And then me going and getting tight shots would be me coming in super tight. That's me because I feel like there's all this stuff that happens right here and I'm trying to capture all that emotion, that energy, that feeling, that mood. That's what I'm trying to shoot and get on every shoot, every shoot.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, interesting. Do you and you teach this. I know you do workshops. How, what do you teach? Where do you do it?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

And tell me a little bit more about the education side of what you've just been telling me. I love that part of it. It's kind of funny. I never thought I'd ever, like you know, give workshops or teach and I remember the first time somebody asked me to do it I felt like you know, this was not my lane, but it has become my lane and I love sharing it. So I just gave a workshop in Detroit and it's my first time doing it since COVID.

Matt Jacob:

And.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I forgot how much I loved it. So it was like I actually gave a workshop and I gave a keynote speak. The keynote was packed and in the workshop it was a lighting workshop with only 40 people allowed to come in and they had 10 people waiting trying to get into it as well. But it was so much fun, I loved it so much. I love sharing the joy of photography and all that I've learned throughout my career, especially about lighting.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

So I gave a lighting workshop and I'm ready to do another one here in Japan. I guess I could just launch it this morning on my Instagram. Here we are talking about social media again. So I'm going to do a very unique workshop, starting here in Japan, in Tokyo, where I teach people about photography, lighting and teach people how to wear kimono. We'll use a Japanese model. We'll dress her in several different kimonos. I'm doing it with two other people. So I'm doing it with another photographer and a kimono sensei, which is expert, like kimono expert. So the three of us will teach photography and the art of wearing kimonos and we'll shoot it. We'll have the whole workshop in a traditional Japanese house Super cool, something you can't get anywhere else in the world but in Japan.

Matt Jacob:

Wait, can we sign up for that Just on your Instagram?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Yeah, go to my Instagram today and you'll see it in my bio. See the link called Shutter and Silk. You can sign up right there for the workshops Cool.

Matt Jacob:

Awesome In the education space. What is it that you? You know, if we were to pinpoint and I'm going to put you on the spot, but pinpoint one lesson that you've learned along the way that you believe is really important to pass on to other photographers.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Absolutely.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

This is a big one. This is a big one. As photographers, we all feel like we're going through things by ourself, because many of us are working in small studios, or by ourself or small groups, and you go through these ups and downs and you feel like you're the only one going through them. But when you get into groups and find out that there's so many of us going through the same thing, you understand that this is part of the process. I have another course that I teach as well, and this course is an online course and it's weekly. So in the weekly, my online course it's photographers from all over the world, from Israel, from the UK, from South of France, from all over the United States, from here in Japan and with the workshop with my online course, there's an online component where they get all this training on lighting. But the real part of my online is every single week, no matter where I am in the world, we meet for a one-hour live session. They are so incredible.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

My course is called Photography Lighting Course. You can go to photographylightingcoursecom. You find the course, and last weekend we were on for two hours. People had so many questions and just talking about different. This is every week.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I've had this course now for like seven years and we go together every single week and people come like they're going to church, they do not miss it, and they're from all over the world. Sometimes it's like you know one in the morning, their time, but they don't miss it. And it's incredible to find people going through what we go through as photographers and finding out, oh, you're going through that, oh, I had the same problem. And then you find out that, oh, this is what we all go through and you find out how to get through that problem together. It's super cool and it's inspirational, it's educational. It's great for me as the instructor, it's great for me to connect with other photographers who are doing what we all love Phot stories sharing, you know. Talking about gears you know, sometimes we can all be gearheads um and the whole process of how you, you know, make a living and make a life as a photographer so the lesson being uh, find a community or at least integrate and involve yourself.

Matt Jacob:

I found that when I started the main reason I started this podcast I just found that the photography community, by default, because it's quite an individual pursuit, is very well individual. There isn't really like a close knit, there's no teams, there's no groups. It's very difficult to integrate and when I started to kind of try and meet other photographers, a lot of them not all of them, but a lot of them were very like closed, closed off to their secrets and how they took photos and their client list and their contacts like, come on, guys, we're all in this together.

Matt Jacob:

Like I'm, you know, I'm trying to learn, so I think that's wonderful that you've created something like that. And there are many, many platforms like that around the world. They just don't get the notice and the exposure. I think that they should, but they are. They are out there, so that's that's really really good to hear. When we think about people in your cohort and in your, you know, joining these calls every week, they must look up to you, definitely look up to you as an inspiration. Who is it that inspired you back in the day?

Matt Jacob:

or over the years. Just give me a handful of, maybe, inspirations that have.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Oh, man, so my biggest inspirations? I have so many, but the first one that comes to mind is Gordon Parks. Gordon Parks was a photographer who was like the man for me growing up. He was a Black photographer who was shooting for Life Magazine, doing these big editorials, shooting celebrities. He had this amazing career.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

So for me to see somebody, as a young man young kid at the time who looked like me, doing great things in photography and beyond, he was the first Black photographer first well, not the first Black photographer, but one of the first Black prominent photographers, first Black director. He did Shaft, the original Shaft composer, did all these amazing things and it was inspiring to read his story. So I read all his books growing up about his life and what he went through to become a photographer. And then, years later, when I did my first book, I found a contact for him and I approached him about being in my book to let me photograph him and interview him. And, man, it was incredible for me to have my childhood idol in front of me and photograph him and interview him and I cherish that to this day. I cherish his interview to this day because he told me that first meeting that it's okay to be afraid to do something, but don't let that fear stifle you from going forward, and many of us do that. We have this fear. We had this great idea in the moment and then the fear kicks in and you never even try. When I had that feeling, I think about Gordon Parks.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Now, there are many photographers who inspired me. Gordon Parks is definitely one. Ansel Adams is one. The great black and white. You know. Seeing that work and seeing black and white images that can speak to you. Now, I don't shoot landscapes at all, but his work spoke to me and I think I discovered the power of an image and how it stops you and speaks to your soul through him.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I've got many. I've got so many photographers that inspire me for so many different reasons, and and even even in my course, my weekly course, we talk about that. We talk about, you know, people who inspired us. We talk about books. That inspires us. Um, I tell stories a lot with a lesson, because those things are super powerful. Um, if you have time, I want to share one with you. Please go ahead. This is this is fashion related. So I talked early about studying fashion, which means you're studying the fashion magazines, like the fashion Bibles, the Vogue's, the bazaars, all those magazines. And for a long time there was this work that see every month in the fashion magazines and it was very different than everything else out there and I thought it was. I thought it was ugly at first. I'm like, oh my God, how'd they hire this photographer to do this work? I didn't like it at first, but every single month his work was in the book in those magazines. I'm like who?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

is this photographer and it was at first. The photographer in me was like, oh, you know, this is overexposed or this is this, is this? Is that? It was so different from everything else in those magazines it stood out. I learned his name. I'm like, oh, who is this photographer? I had to look him up. But every single month his work was in those magazines and it stood out he was not just shooting editorial, he was shooting advertising for big, big brands. Absolutely amazing.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I talk about him a lot. I talk about him when I teach all the time, because Juergen Teller's work is uniquely him. He doesn't try to do what anybody else is doing, but what he does he does it consistently, which lets you know it's not a mistake. He does it all the time. His work, from the time I first saw his work to now, is consistent and that is key to being a photographer long-term, having consistent work. If you can see that work and they know it's you they can see one picture like, oh, okay, that's cool, but was that a mistake? Can that person do it again? Do they know they can do it again? Is it part of their style? Was it just? You know, haphazard With Juergen Teller? It's no mistake, it is intentional and it's beautiful. I have such an appreciation for this photographer's work now and how he inspires me to think outside the box, to do things differently and not worry about being accepted by everybody. Great, great photographer, amazing photographer.

Matt Jacob:

And a great lesson, and a great lesson to people, certainly the younger generation, who want to get a viral hit right. They want to get those likes and those stats behind their photos and it's a long game. It's a long game. They want to get those likes and those stats behind their photos and it's a long game. It's a long game and in that game we have to enjoy the process and enjoy the pursuit. Make sure we're just not getting disheartened by not getting likes or not getting follows or not getting recognition at first.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I can tell you, I know that, being in this industry this long, it will not be around forever. It'll be the next thing. So when, when that's gone, when the like is past tense, what will you do?

Matt Jacob:

Well, now this conversation is past tense. What are you going to do? What's? What's the next?

Matthew Jordan Smith:

what's the next few months and few years look like for for Matthewew jordan smith I'm working on two big personal projects actually and I'm excited to work on those hardcore. As a matter of fact, I I went out yesterday looking at new material um, looking forward to buying a new printer and and trying to print some of this new stuff on this new printer, um, and working on my other big project that I'm scared about but looking forward to that.

Matt Jacob:

Well, we will watch out for it and, in the meantime, thank you so much for joining me today and for speaking about so many cool things and hearing your stories and sharing them with us. So again, thanks for being flexible and thanks for the conversation. Thank you so much as well.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Thank you, I've enjoyed this a lot. So thanks for um, thanks for the conversation. Thank you so much as well. Thank you, I've enjoyed this a lot, so thanks for taking the time to have me on. I loved it. Um, hopefully I can meet you one day in person in Bali. You know, that'd be great.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah Well, I go to Tokyo probably a few times a year, so next time I'm there.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

I would definitely. Let's have a drink and hang out. It'd be great to meet you in person.

Matt Jacob:

And until then, thank you so much.

Matthew Jordan Smith:

Pleasure Arigatou masu.

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Matt Jacob

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