Balancing Art and Business: A New Approach to Success with Ebrahim Turner, E066

What if the path to personal growth could align with creative success?

Ebrahim Turner, a young entrepreneur from UK, shares his story of moving from seeking outside approval to finding real fulfilment within. He opens up about how his time in Bali helped him reconnect with his creativity, blending personal freedom with his work as an artist and entrepreneur.

Ebrahim talks about how mindfulness and breathwork played a key role in shaping his approach to business and art. During this episode, we also explore the connection between financial success and artistic integrity, challenging the old idea that artists need to struggle financially.

What you’ll learn:

• How to unlock creativity through self-awareness
• The power of mindfulness in enhancing your art
• Aligning personal growth with career success
• How to break free from the "starving artist" myth
• Balancing passion with a sustainable income

Find Ebrahim’s work here:
Instagram: @ebrahimturner
Youtube: http://youtube.com/@EbrahimTurner111/
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/ebrahimturner/
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Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Balancing Art, Business and Growth
• 11:12 Rethinking Money and Creativity
• 15:49 Empowering Artists to Succeed

Transcript

Matt Jacob: 0:00

Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation one frame at a time. I'm your host, Matt Jacob, and thank you for joining me in today's conversation, and our guest today is Ibrahim Turner, and this is one of those episodes that departs slightly from the photography and art theme and looks a little deeper into the business and self-development side of photographers, artists and creatives as a whole. I believe the most important ingredients of being a successful artist are to know oneself and to be the best version of that self. Okay, so how do we define successful and do we ever truly know oneself, let alone be its best version? Would we even know if we did? I don't want to get too philosophical, esoteric or just damn right pretentious, so let's put that aside for now and ask some uncomfortable questions inferred in the topic of how we make money from ourselves, how we balance commercial pressures and artistic voice, and how we live an enjoyable life giving back and supporting those that we want to through our chosen passions. Do you always want to be a starving artist? Do you honestly feel like you want to maintain the struggle because it feeds your artistry? I call bullshit. Yeah, some of the best art this world has ever seen has emanated from suffering and trauma.

Matt Jacob: 1:27

Traumatic experiences can spark immense pain, joy, fulfillment, purpose and creativity if you look hard enough, but I guarantee you these will happen along this journey. We call life. Whatever you do on the outset, it's just a part of life. You do on the outset it's just a part of life. It's how we embrace those challenges, the inner voices, the stories we tell ourselves about our experiences, emotions and situations, and how we identify with our thoughts and how we use our experiences to actually create art, Because any experience, if you're mindful enough, can be the birth of something incredible when it comes to photography or any artistic endeavor.

Matt Jacob: 2:07

So for today's conversation, I talk with a man who's embraced and experienced all of this. Ibrahim has built a career empowering others, helping creatives turn their talents into thriving businesses. We explore the crucial balance between commercial success and artistic integrity, and how creatives can stay true to their art while leveraging it for financial freedom. We then discuss internal transformation, mindfulness and the role that spirituality plays in living authentically as an artist. Ibrahim shares insights on overcoming limiting beliefs, staying present in the moment and creating a life that feels as good on the inside as it looks on the outside. We also explore the power of breathwork, the tension between hustle and peace, or being versus becoming, and the influence of living in a place such as Bali on creativity and personal freedom. This conversation offers deep insights for anyone seeking to live a more intentional, empowered and creative life.

Matt Jacob: 3:15

So now I bring you, Ibrahim Turner. Welcome to the mood podcast. Yeah, now it's a mood, ibrahim turner. Um pleasure to have you on here. I wanted to start with really why my audience and people clicking on to this might want to listen more. What is it that we can offer them today when it comes to what you do and what you do best?

Ibrahim Turner: 3:52

I think I just help anybody to really fulfill their own potential, to unlock whatever inside of them is holding them back from getting to where they want to go right. So, whether that's you want to create more art and you want to share that with the world and there's something holding you back, or whether it's you believe that you shouldn't charge money for what you do because there's like some limiting belief inside of you around that right, or whether it's just that you just want to, maybe you've already created some external freedom in your life and you're actually you're doing good, right, like, like yourself, you've got a lot of good things going for you, but maybe there's just some, some, some internal things that you want to to go back and work through. Um, whatever it is, you know, that's essentially what I love to get to the root of how. I think it starts with just taking a step back. It starts with slowing down, right, we're in a do, do, do world where it's like onto the next thing, onto the next thing, but sometimes you just have to stop and you just have to observe and, just like we did before starting, right, what we're doing. We're just checking in with how we're doing, how our state is the thing I always say and thing that's tattooed on my arm is your internal state equals your external reality, right, and so if you're, if you're a creator, if you're a creative, what you're creating is an expression of what is inside of you, right, it's a reflection. So whether you're an entrepreneur or creative doesn't matter, it's, it's the business, the creation is a reflection of your inner state. So if we can start there, we can then analyze, we can then have self-inquiry to see what is going on internally and we can unleash that. We can create that internal freedom, right, because so many people live a life focused on's make more money, let's get into the better relationship. You know, they want to look better, which is great. Those are all good human desires.

Ibrahim Turner: 5:52

But I know for myself, when I got those things, you know, my dream was to just have those things. You know. Rewind back to 21 year old version of myself. I want to have a penthouse. I want to be able to go to the club, you know, know, every couple of days a week, I want all these things.

Ibrahim Turner: 6:06

Well, the day I got that was interesting. My parents I was living in my parents' house I moved out. They dropped me off with the brown boxes. It was nighttime and I go out onto the balcony, I look over the smoky London skyline and I just kind of whispered to myself like, is this, is this? It is this what? This is success? And I just felt this like deep loneliness, this deep lack of fulfillment, and I realized in that moment that purpose doesn't come from those external things. Right, and I think one of the things I love about your audience is that you're actually pursuing that purpose and that artistry and that creation first, which I actually. I don't think there's such thing as right or wrong, but I think that's such an amazing way to do it right, and we look at the East, who may be doing that first, and we look at the West, who are doing the external first, and for me, I just realized that why don't we just take both and live our lives that way?

Matt Jacob: 7:10

Because if someone were to see your external output in terms of your social platforms and what you put out there in the world, one might be forgiven to think that you know that he's a guy that teaches other people to make money. I want to kind of break that down a little bit because I know that's not necessarily true what you've said and we've worked a little bit together, but maybe in the past that was, and I know you've had a few iterations of your business model and your coaching, business, marketing, business and whatever agency and what it was before. Give us a kind of journey through that timeline and why those iterations came about.

Ibrahim Turner: 7:52

Yeah, at the start it was just about making money. I was a university student. I was supposed to be. I was doing an economics degree. I was supposed to go and be an investment banker and the day that I completed that degree I looked around at all of my peers who were applying to their seven-stage interviews for JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs which is what I was supposed to do and I just couldn't do it. Five years, 50 grand in debt, and I didn't apply for a single job Because something inside of me just knew that's not the real meaning of life.

Ibrahim Turner: 8:27

I wasn't spiritual, I wasn't any of these things. I just something inside of me just said that's not it. But I didn't know what was it right, I had no idea. So the next logical step was okay, well, what do I want? Well, I want a level of freedom in my own life. I've seen my parents grow up with. You know, my dad came, as you know, from Africa to the UK was less than zero, so I saw them struggle. So I knew that I didn't want that for myself. So I knew I needed to figure out something. I was sitting down with the first ever mentor that I got from a decade ago, when I was 20, he was 30. We sat down he's now, I'm now 30, he's now 40. And he said you know, you guys, you're not really entrepreneurs, you just don't want to have jobs. So you just figured out a way not to have a job. And I think it's kind of the same with creatives, in a way.

Matt Jacob: 9:16

We just don't want to have a job right.

Ibrahim Turner: 9:18

That's really what our label should be.

Matt Jacob: 9:20

The thing that drives me is not liking being told what to do.

Ibrahim Turner: 9:24

Yes, it's essentially the same thing. Exactly, it's that authority, right. And so, for me, I was willing to put myself through the pain of moving back in, with my parents living in their shed for a year just grinding, trying to figure out a way to make money, because that, for a lot of people, is the first step, because if you don't have any money, then guess what? It's really hard, life's very difficult because that's the society we live in. Right, that's how we transact, but somewhere along the way I got a little bit lost into that in the pursuit of it, and so I think a lot of people think money is bad or money is evil, and I agree in some ways.

Ibrahim Turner: 10:02

If you think about jeff bezos, for example, imagine him. He's on his 500 million dollar yacht, costs 25 million a year just to maintain it and he's driving through. He's having bridges taken apart so he can move his yacht through it, right? What do you think of when you think of a man with that much money and meanwhile he's paying his employees less than the minimum wage, right? And so we all have these beliefs around money, and the thing is, is that whatever we believe is essentially our identity, it's who we become and it's the story we tell ourselves. So if we believe subconsciously that money is bad, then guess what? We're not going to want to attract money, we're not going to want to make money, we're not going to want to sell things, because maybe we also think that selling has a negative connotation to it, because of you know Wolf of Wall Street, boiler room films like that and again, it's not about the thing, it's about the intention behind it.

Ibrahim Turner: 11:07

So money isn't good or bad, selling isn't good or bad, they're just neutral things. And this is what I learned. I was able to learn when I got money that it isn't good or bad because it didn't give me fulfillment, but, yeah, it gave me a level of external freedom and let me do things. So I was like, hmm, it's kind of like social media bit of a double-edged sword. Right, you can go on it, you can share good, but you can also get sucked into it. And so I realized it's actually just our responsibility to develop a relationship with it and to maybe look at that relationship.

Ibrahim Turner: 11:37

What I think about it is imagine you know you have your best friend and he comes over to your house and you know you guys are having a great time. You're vibing all day, you're making art, whatever it is, you're playing your favorite games. At the end of the day, your friend goes to leave, to go home, and you say, no, I've just had the best day, I want you to stay here, and you lock the door. He's gonna think what's wrong with this guy, like I need to get out of here, right? Well, that's how a lot of people treat money, right, we lock it away in a bank account because we're scared to let it go, because there is this inherent fear in the relationship that we have with money, or maybe we're scared to even look at the bank account. Well, all these things are signals to tell you what your relationship is like with money, because there's something deeper beneath the surface going on, and so these are just the kind of things that sort of start to figure out for myself along the way.

Ibrahim Turner: 12:31

And then, at a certain point, I realized that business is a form of art. An entrepreneur is expressing themselves through business, which is their form of artistry, just like a photographer is, just like a painter is. We just have different forms of of art, right, and when I saw it that way, it kind of like opened the floodgates because I realized whatever I'm creating is just a form of self-expression. Um, I forget what your real question was now.

Matt Jacob: 12:58

No, I think there's so much that I can go on from there yeah, I think I I talk about that all the time with people how entrepreneurship is probably the most creative thing you can do. You know true entrepreneurship you're starting something that you believe in from scratch. Most of the time, even if you go and get investors right, even if you have injection of cash or you piggyback off a franchise or whatever your business model might be, it is one of the most the true forms of creativity right, because you create literally. It's the definition of it.

Matt Jacob: 13:32

So I get that, and I think that's where artists can can become a little bit misaligned with their purpose and their goal. And they they don't quite understand, me included. I say they. I think you know the proverbial we. I get a little bit confused because we have to be entrepreneurs. We don't. You know, if you want to pursue an art form full-time, whether you're youtube creator, photographer, um painter, architect, whatever, whatever your art form might be, you quickly realize that if I want to do this full-time, I have to be good at business. I have to be able to sell myself.

Ibrahim Turner: 14:14

What if you didn't have to be? What if you get to be good at business? Because what if you actually love business? What if you looked at business, just like that fall of artistry?

Matt Jacob: 14:27

So that's exactly what I'm saying.

Ibrahim Turner: 14:30

But that's the difference, right At some point.

Matt Jacob: 14:32

You have to realize that this is an opportunity for me and I just have to learn a new skill, a new way of seeing what I want to do and what I have to do. Have to in terms of I have to pay the bills at the end of the month, so I'm using that word have as in survival right, or even better, if you're privileged, like us, where you have, okay, I can now set goals and I want to go to this, and we'll talk about being versus becoming later. But so, yeah, I kind of I get it, get what you mean totally, and. But I think that's a a world that we have to change our perception of. When it comes to artists because you know, we talked about this before there's so many limiting beliefs and I don't want to have to sell and I don't want to do this, I just want to make art. Well, you can't make art without getting some money in the bank most of the time, right, or getting paid by a client, whatever it might be. So, yeah, I think there's that. But when it comes to money, I think people often conflate money with greed as well. Greed is bad. I don't think many good things ever come of greed, whereas money's not the same, greed obviously can be associated with it. So I think there's a confusion there as well. But yeah, I can't remember my first question.

Matt Jacob: 15:49

Let's talk about, though, how you empower people, to kind of find that we were to take kind of my case in terms of artists. You know how to empower people and why. You know a lot of your business model is about empowering people, right? It's finding that inner peace for external success, right? So how do we go about? Why is that important to us? And I say us, I keep kind of reverting back to the creatives and artists and people who might find that a little bit difficult, because the reason I asked this question why should we care? Because a lot of artists who create amazing work it's born from suffering and it's born from trauma and it's born from something that's difficult in their life and many artists don't want to let that go, which is why many artists might become drug addicts or not care about selling out to get thousands thousand followers on instagram or sell a course or do a client jobs. They want to stay true to that identity of a starving artist and a suffering artist, right? Because that's really where their true art comes from. That's their belief, so how do we is that true and, if so or not, how do we go about kind of identifying that?

Matt Jacob: 17:06

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Matt Jacob: 17:44

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Ibrahim Turner: 18:25

Well, I think, the Star of a Nar deal to keep your creative juices flowing even longer. All right, let's get back to the episode. Well, I think the starving artist is the best place to start, right? What is that? Like you said, it's a self-identity created by the ego, right? And what does the ego want to do? Well, it wants to keep us what it believes is safe and protected and in the known. So, even if you're a starving artist and you are poor and you are living in poverty, you would rather have money.

Ibrahim Turner: 18:50

But there's fear of the unknown, of changing, there's fear of all of those perceptions that you just said. So, in a weird way, it's almost easier to keep yourself in the known, which which is suffering, than it is to take a step into the unknown. But you first of all have to realize that there's no honor in suffering and being a starving artist like there just isn't. And I'm not saying it's bad or good, I'm just saying, if you think that that's a good thing, ask yourself why. Because? Or look at it from the perspective of if you had a child, would you want them to be suffering? Would you want them to be starving? You probably wouldn't, right. Why is that? Well, because you have a different perspective over another human being. You love them, you care for them, you want what's best for them, them. So why don't you want that for yourself? And there lies the question, which is that it's safer to stay in the suffering known that it is to go into the unknown, which is where all of your freedom lies.

Ibrahim Turner: 19:57

And when I say freedom, I don't just mean the external stuff, I mean the internal freedom, right? And you asked earlier, like why is peace important and all these things? I'm not saying peace is the goal. You might not want to live a peaceful life, right, you might love the chaos, and that's awesome if you do. I'm not saying one's better or worse, but why do we do everything we do?

Ibrahim Turner: 20:17

Ultimately, it's for an emotion, right, it's for some kind of emotion, and so that's the reason for everything. That's why you, you do, I gives you I mean, I don't know what it gives you, because I'm not an artist and as your audience are, but I would imagine it gives you some kind of like connection, some kind of flow, some kind of meaning and purpose and expression. All of these things are states, essentially, things that you're feeling are states, essentially, things that you're feeling and so that's why we do everything. So I would actually say, if you really love your art, and let's take an example, let's take michelangelo the um, how would you describe him? He was like he would like craft stone statues, right?

Ibrahim Turner: 20:59

I don't know what the correct word is for that, but he was sculptor painter yeah, known as the greatest of all time or one of the greatest of all time. Well, how did he get so great? He spent years and years honing his craft. He would that. That, that statue, you know it's. I forget what it's called, but it's like the. You know it's the basically naked guy who's got the big muscles.

Matt Jacob: 21:22

Yeah, Donis.

Ibrahim Turner: 21:24

You know what he did to be able to do that. He went into and looked at corpses and spent months dissecting bodies, looking at the muscle fibers, opening them up, seeing what the organs looked like, so he could really understand what a body truly looks like. So he could then and he had to sneak in to these places to do it, risking himself. Getting that to to me is true artistry, though, because he's obsessed with his craft and that's what he devoted himself to. And guess what? He got paid a lot of money for that, because he was exceptional at it and he was one of the highest paid sculptors ever. You know, his art is now in, you know, florence. It's in all of these like artistic hubs around the world. But it was because he had such a big goal for himself and such a big vision to create the next sculpture and the next sculpture. These are all such big jumps, things that he didn't know how to do. But he was obsessed with the vision and the goal of creating the best possible art and, as a byproduct of that, he got paid really well, because he was just recognized for that, right. The money just came because he was obsessed with the process of it, right. And so if that's also part of your and you could say there's ego in that, so if that's also part of your and you could say there's ego in that, right, you could say, maybe that's not the purest thing from one perspective, but I just look at that as mastery and I think that's a part of what we all want, right? We want to master a craft, and sure, part of us wants to be recognized for that, but part of us just wants to master it because we want to master it for ourselves, right? And so there's plenty of examples of these, of these artists, to create good things.

Ibrahim Turner: 23:10

And you don't have to die before you make money. You know you can do it in real time. You just have to be willing to be courageous enough to set the goal, to be honest with yourself about what do you truly want, not what should you want or not? What perception do you want to create yourself? What do you actually want? So I always ask you, like when we do a session, what's the goal? And I'm like, is that really the goal? Because if that's the goal, cool, we can get you there. And it's going to require certain actions, certain beliefs that have got to be outside of your comfort zone. It's going to require sacrifice to get there, not even just sacrifice of time sacrifice of yourself, parts of yourself, and that's the game we play.

Matt Jacob: 23:56

I think the danger with setting goals in that way is that status can kind of creep in. You talked about ego, right. Again, money is different to status. They can go together, right, you know I've got a million bucks and you tell everyone and you show it off that status that's not money. You have money, but you actually care about status more than you know that status that's not money. Yeah right, you have money, but you you actually care about status more than you do about the money, right?

Matt Jacob: 24:22

So I think I think that there again, that there is some negative and limiting kind of perceptions of money because of these, these spin-offs that come with it. So I do wonder, okay, what do you? You know, if you're asking that question to a client or to an artist, whoever it might be, what do you really want, how they can honestly answer that question? Really, they have to know themselves very well first. Right, and that's probably where you come in in terms of let's fix the internal before we even think about the external. Is that correct in me kind of surmising that?

Ibrahim Turner: 25:00

Yes and no. So you always know what you want, based on your just level of current awareness, consciousness, your own self-development right.

Matt Jacob: 25:08

Yeah, but what I mean by that is like because I've heard this before and people say you know, what do you want to be? I want to be Instagram famous, right, really.

Ibrahim Turner: 25:16

But here's the thing Maybe that is someone's truth right and maybe they need to go on that journey to then realize that's not what they actually want.

Matt Jacob: 25:30

This is why that's what I mean, that's not really their truth.

Ibrahim Turner: 25:32

It's the superficial truth that they perceive. Yeah, but it could be their truth in the moment. Is what?

Matt Jacob: 25:34

I'm saying right.

Ibrahim Turner: 25:35

So for sure and of course you go down that you play that out eventually they're going to realize that's not what it is and they're going to evolve right. But sometimes you can't just tell someone that they need to actually experience it for themselves. And so for me, like if I didn't work really hard to pursue money and then get it and all the things that I wanted from it, I wouldn't have known that. That wasn't it, even though everyone told me money doesn't buy happiness. And guess what? They were right, but I didn't believe them. Well, I was exactly the same.

Ibrahim Turner: 26:09

So I think there are certain lessons that we do need to learn sometimes. This is why I say it's not necessarily. Life gives you the, the development right, the things that you pursue in life and the opportunities and the challenges that it gives you creates the opportunity for you to self-develop, self-actualize, grow, right? So I don't think many people in your audience would even want that goal right of like being Instagram famous. Maybe, like there's the shadow self and there's that like sure, everyone kind of wants fame, like wouldn't it be nice to have a million followers? Most people would say probably yes to that right, but it's like to your point, it's not what you really want.

Ibrahim Turner: 26:51

So the question is what do you really want and how do we figure that out? And that's the ultimate question you really want and how do we figure that out? And that's the I mean, that's that's the ultimate question. Right, it requires stripping back the layers, right? Because? Because why do you do what you do? Let me ask you that like if I ask you, why do you do what you do, what are some of the first reasons that pop up?

Matt Jacob: 27:12

well photography is. I pretty pretty much nailed it on the head earlier in terms of flow, state, satisfaction, purpose and, more than anything, self-expression. It's just a way that I can put myself out there right. For some reason, I enjoy that. Just been on two big photography trips and, um, it kind of having two back-to-back really allowed me to go very deep into the photography process, right, and really consider.

Matt Jacob: 27:47

You know, we were offline for so long, didn't have any connection with the outside world. It's just us as a group and, more importantly, the, the indigenous population where we were northern India and Angola and it got me asking those questions like why do I love this so much? But I would go out and shoot and come back and not really remember anything. It was in such a flow state but I knew that I was buzzing, like absolutely just. This is pure joy, which is very rare to experience, very lucky to have those kind of moments. So I couldn't necessarily probably write it down in terms of bullet point, but it just gives me happiness and I think if you break that down, there's self-expression, there's purpose, there's just the act of interacting, interacting with other people, interacting with a tool. You know you break it down, break it down, break it down, but on the high level, is there's something along those lines?

Ibrahim Turner: 28:46

I think you're hitting the money on the head with the nail on the head, sorry with this right. So let's break that down. So, when you're creating and you're in that artistic state and you're in that flow state, let's break down what that is, because really it's the flow state which is the thing that you associate doing photography with right.

Ibrahim Turner: 29:06

It's that state that you become in that feels what feels good, feels present, like a drug, yeah, so endorphins, yeah dopamine yeah, and so there's a couple, there are components that make that up right, you need to be well, you're going to be in the present moment, you're going to be challenged a little bit, right that's really key and I think sorry to interrupt, but you've actually talked about mentioned something there that I've improved on over the last few years is being in the present moment, like we're're talking now.

Matt Jacob: 29:37

Nothing else matters, right, it's being practicing mindfulness and being able to actually be here right now, in the moment, and understand what that feels like. And understanding just being happy with what's happening, listening, obviously there's a tension in there, but I think that's 10x when I have a camera in my hand, right, it's just like I'm so present and that's my form of a drug almost. People do mushrooms, or they go on meditation retreats, or they just meditate, or they're breathing exercises. Whatever their thing is to tap into that kind of flow state. That, for me, is kind of my entry into it. But I wouldn't be able to have such a an effective experience without being better at being present, right? Does that make sense?

Ibrahim Turner: 30:27

yeah, 100, and we, we all. These are all just mechanisms to get into the present moment, though, and to get into the the flow state. For somebody, it might be podcasting, it might be playing paddle, right, like, there's this pad. I love paddle. Why do I love paddle? Well, it's kind of the same thing, right? I'm in the present moment. I don't have my phone on me, so there's no other thoughts that are coming in. It's really just that presence. That's the ultimate thing, right, because this is all that exists. But then it's also also, if you add on to that you're getting better at something, you're getting better at that craft, and the real fulfillment comes from the growth that you feel. It's that incremental improvement, right? No, it's like I've seen you make this same coffee downstairs 10 times in the last two days I'm not you, you're your team, right, and it's that mastery, it's that getting it better and perfecting it.

Ibrahim Turner: 31:20

It's that right, that, and I can see that's coming from like your love and passion. You're not, you're not coming from a place of like, no, this has to be yeah, right, it's because you love it so much, right, and you enjoy it so much, and so that's why you also love coffee, right, because it's an art form. And so, for anyone listening to this, if you can whether you're an artist, photographer or not find that thing that gets you into that flow state, because, guess what, that doesn't just affect you in that moment, that ripples out to every other area of your life. I always say internal state equals external reality. So that's changing your internal state, to be more present, to be happier, to be just a better, more positive, enjoyable, to be around enthusiastic version of yourself, and that's that is, um, what's the word I'm looking for? It's contagious, right. Just as you know, if you're around someone who's stressed, that stress comes onto you, right, it doesn't feel good. Or if you're around someone who's bubbly and upbeat and and passionate, that's also that also kind of comes on to you, right? So if you're the person who's in that state. Share that with people. It's best gift you can give. And here's the thing the art you create is just an expression of that as well. So your ability to then share that with other people and coming back to the money talk earlier get compensated well, for that is a beautiful thing.

Ibrahim Turner: 32:39

And actually what I've realized is from doing more personal work with people in these last few years. I've realized that because I used to not charge much when I started out for the same things, I was like, oh well, this is, you know, I'm helping somebody. They might be going through a really tough time. You know, it's really personal stuff, like I don't want to charge a lot of money for this. But I realized that, one, the more money somebody wants to pay for something right, the more they actually get value from that thing, because it's an energy exchange, right, money is just the exchange of energy that we use.

Ibrahim Turner: 33:14

And two, you as the creator actually feel like you're getting properly compensated for. You feel good about it and you can then give more of yourself to that person, to that thing, to that creative project, right when you're being compensated well for it, and it doesn't have to be a bad thing to get paid a lot of money for something. It can be an amazing, amazing, amazing thing and that's why part of and this is why it's just the mindset, because you can choose to just have that shift around it. Essentially, what you value something at, somebody else can then value it at. But if you don't value it highly, then you're doing a disservice to what you've created, and I don't, I don't. I think that's a shame and I see so many artists under charge for what they do and it's such a shame.

Matt Jacob: 34:03

We just talked about it, didn't we? I won't mention it now. We have to learn those lessons as well. Again, it's learning where the sweet spot is, but also learning failure and learning success and just kind of going through that process as as whatever you want to label yourself, as you know, maybe a lot of artists not good with money right, they're just, they're just not good with business.

Matt Jacob: 34:29

I interviewed he won't mind me saying this because it was on the podcast and he said it himself but photographer called Jimmy Nelson, very, very big, everyone you know, quite famous in terms of in the photography world, and he doesn't have a cent to his name, like and he's I can't remember his age, I'd say fifties, and he, but he doesn't care. He said look, I'm not good at business. I give all my money away anyway to either my team or to charity and I just love doing what I do. I just do photography every day, go on these amazing trips, take amazing photos, sell them, and the money just goes back in the system. But the important part of that, he identified that I'm just not good at business. I tried it and I've just there was something I just wasn't good at, so now I basically outsource it right so he can focus, and that's okay as well. There's no right or wrong with with all this. You have to kind of find your way, and I think that's an important journey, an important lesson for people.

Matt Jacob: 35:27

Certainly people might be listening to this or watching it is we can watch a million youtube videos and we can listen to loads of people like you need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this. What I like about your approach one reason why you're on the podcast is because it's more of a okay, let's find out who you are first and what's important to you, right, and there we can build everything else around that so we can find your way and your journey. So my follow-up question to that would be what's your journey and what's your success? What does success mean to you in terms of the battles between internal, external fulfillment, purpose, et cetera, et cetera? Money.

Ibrahim Turner: 36:09

Success to me is just waking up and just feeling good, just feeling in a state where, at worst, I'm at neutral, at best I'm in a good state. Because if I'm waking up and I'm just here and I'm just present to me, that's success, because everything else that has led to that point has probably been looked at to get to that state, right. And then why do I start with that? Well, because that's the state everything is created from. It all comes back to the internal right. So, yeah, look, there's loads of things I could say of what success means to me, like providing for my family at home, being able to do things for them, you know, having kids and get married in the next few years, all those things.

Ibrahim Turner: 36:57

Fatherhood Does Maggie know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, she would be now if it was up to her, right? Yeah, like, all of those things are really important to me, but I've only discovered them by going through life, right? And so, ultimately, I think that the more I go on this journey, the more I realize a lot of it is just about being in service as well, and service can mean so many different things, but it's ultimately living for something greater than yourself, right? Because even if you just create art just for yourself and no one sees it, there's a level of satisfaction you get from just the pure creative process and that is beautiful. But there's also a part of you that wants to share that with the world. That's called the ego. But it doesn't have to be. Ego is not always bad right.

Matt Jacob: 37:49

No, no, no yeah. And that's Ego is just self. Yeah, ego gets a bad connotation, but ego just means the self.

Ibrahim Turner: 37:56

Yeah, but it's an amplifier, right, when you can share that, that can then affect other people. So I think service is also a really big thing for me, just and again, it can just be like, you know, smiling at the old lady across the road because no one smiles at her anymore, because she's not 21 anymore, right, that's also the same thing. Just leaving people in the world in just a little bit of a better place than where you found it. I think that, to me, is success. And so then you ask well, what do I get to do in order to achieve that? What's the level of impact I want to have?

Ibrahim Turner: 38:35

You inevitably come back to creation. Right, probably it's going to lead back to some kind of business, because that's just the tool, it's the vehicle to be able to make that change, to make that impact. Right, and yeah, to me, that's what success is is living that life. And I just turned 30 and held a, a mastermind in london, and they, uh, the guys brought out like a surprise birthday cake for me at the end and I had a margarita and I'd never drink. So I was like very, very tipsy when I had, uh, when I did this speech, and I was like okay, all these guys are in their like 20s.

Matt Jacob: 39:11

What's something I can some some, what some wisdom I can give them right and I was like why is wisdom from the old man in the room who's drunk?

Ibrahim Turner: 39:19

yeah, uh, what do I say? And I, just, when I looked back at the last decade, I realized that I truly didn't have any regrets. And when I was in my younger days, I remember I would always just think forward to when I'm 90 and I would always think like, okay, for example, when I didn't apply for a single job at university and tried to figure out this business and other thing right, even I had no idea how to do that I was like well, what would my 90 year old self say, the one who's probably retired and can maybe start living his life now after working and slaving his life away? He'd probably say probably should have taken that risk. You probably should have had the courage to go down the path that you truly want to go down. And for me that was business at the time. And so I think we always a lot of the time we look back and we change things about our life, but to me I wouldn't. Actually there's not much I would change in the last decade of my life, and it's because in those important moments I really did my best to lean on the side of courage and lean on the side of okay, let's go.

Ibrahim Turner: 40:26

What's the worst case that can happen? Right, you fail, it doesn't work out. Okay, then what? Well, you look a bit stupid. Then what? Maybe you lose some money? Okay, then what? Do you still have a family who love you? Yeah. Do you still have a roof over your head? Yeah. Do you still have access to food? Yeah. Do you have a great story because of it? Yeah, all right, that's not so bad. Worst case scenario.

Ibrahim Turner: 40:51

So I use that as a decision-making framework in the important moments. And it's scary man Sometimes, even right now, with what I'm doing, right, I'm obviously I coach entrepreneurs and big for a big focus from the external is business, because that's where a lot of people are at. They want to make more money totally cool. But then we work on a lot of the internal stuff. Once we get to there, right, and even right now, I'm going through this transition of like, okay, is that still my truth right now? Do I, do I? Is it actually time to evolve that message and evolve the types of people that I'm helping for where they're at and I'm? That's what I'm figuring out right now. I think the answer is yes to what to?

Matt Jacob: 41:31

as in what would you evolve to?

Ibrahim Turner: 41:33

yeah, it's more. I guess it's just helping people who are much more focused on this in a journey rather than the business journey, so typical. So, for example, right now I was to help an entrepreneur. It's like they want to make more money in their business, so I would help them to do that right. So develop those skills over a decade of doing it, inevitably along the way.

Ibrahim Turner: 41:57

The internal you know their mind, their emotions, their, their traumas, these things are going to come into it. But then my next question was okay, if I knew and this is a good question you can ask, or the audience can ask when you make an important decision If you knew you were going to be successful at that thing, would you do it? If you knew success was guaranteed? And I was like I would do it right now was my answer. So I was like oh okay, that's interesting.

Ibrahim Turner: 42:24

So then I can figure out. Well, it's only fear that's holding me back. Well, what's the fear? Fear that it might not work, fear that I've built up all this momentum and I have to kind of let that go. Oftentimes it's letting go of things 's like the big thing, right. And then through that self-analysis I realized, well, all right, let's just take a step in that direction. So video I'm recording after this will be a step in that direction and it's just like it doesn't mean it doesn't always mean you have to do this massive big change in in your life. When I moved to Bali two years ago, to be fair, that was actually a big change. But as an example for people, if you want to move to another country, you don't have to just move there straight away. You can go visit, right, visit for a week or say I'm going to go for a month and then I'll head home if I don't like it. Test it out, try it, take the step, because it's only by spend so much time just thinking and like the same patterns. 95 of our thoughts are the same as yesterday.

Matt Jacob: 43:23

It's just on loop, again and again and again actually I saw a stat the other day which I had heard was different about 10 years ago, but I checked I fact checked it yesterday and it was from a reputable source, I think it was the new york times. Actually, 82 of what we worry about never happens. Yep. So I mean, I know worry is that's a thought, but I know you're talking about thoughts generally, but also that's just another good example of, like you know, just don't identify with those thoughts all the time because, like I said, 95 of the same and 82 are stuff that's you're not gonna. Most of the thoughts are like most of the thoughts I would say are probably negative or at least worrisome. Right, oh, I gotta do that, and what about that, and what about that? And then it's repeat, repeat, and then you kind of build up the story, right, exactly, and then, and then you're just in this cycle and then, and then it.

Ibrahim Turner: 44:11

So it goes from your thoughts, which are repeated, which then create your beliefs, right, what you think about what money is, world money's, evil money's, whatever? And then that becomes your identity and then you act in alignment with your identity. So, if that initial thought that was programmed into at some point in your life is, I shouldn't charge a lot of money for what I do or it's bad, then if you believe that, enough, you're then going to become that person the starving artist, let's say and then you're going to just take action in alignment with that and that's all it is. That's all it is. But you can change that. You can change that at any point in your life. You can make a decision, and it all starts with, well, changing the thought, noticing the thoughts right, becoming aware of them, because when you become aware of them, you can then change them. That then changes your beliefs, and you can look for evidence as well.

Ibrahim Turner: 45:01

Okay, maybe I don't fully believe this yet, but let me look at some examples. Who else has maybe gone on this path? I want to go on, and you can start to seek people out, and this is why having like mentors and having the right environment is so important because that then shows you well, there's this whole new reality. Maybe there's this whole other group of artists who are all multi-millionaires, who are, who are living it up, but they're creating amazing art and make an amazing impact and they're staying true to themselves, but you, just, you just don't even want to open that door because you don't want to believe that that could be true, because it goes against your identity. So you'll defend that identity. No, it's not true, but maybe it is right. And then that, and then it changes the whole, the whole loop and before you know it, you're, you're a whole different version of yourself. And that evolution of self is painful at times, right, because it can be chaotic, it can mean questioning everything that you believe to be true um confusing.

Ibrahim Turner: 46:02

It can be very very confusing because you have to it.

Matt Jacob: 46:05

Sometimes you have to admit the way you've been living is a lie yeah that's not fun, you just have to talk to me and my wife, like the last 40 years is okay, maybe a lie would be a strong word, but, um, no, I mean, maybe, maybe it's the right word. You know it's. You're looking back at most of your life and thinking, fuck, and this is where you talked about regrets earlier. It's difficult to not have regrets, but to reframe it, to be aware of. Okay, regret is just an emotion, it's just just an arbitrary thing that pops into your head you have no control over. How can you reframe it? How can you be aware of it? To begin with, like, why am I feeling regretful? Oh, because of this and this and this. Well, reframe it, flip it on its side, like you said, change that thought by reframing, but first of all, you have to be aware of it. So this is why I like to have guests like you on the show and, you know, do get some people why. This is not photography, but this is important, I think, to be a better photographer, to be a better artist, be a better filmmaker, better creator, better painter, whatever your art form might be, entrepreneur, right, there are people out there who do a bit of everything and want to take that step to the next level. So I definitely agree with you and I think, just like you said, having that painful first step of okay, look, I want to change, how do I change? Or I want to be better, how do I be better, it first starts with just being aware of what's going on in your head, right?

Matt Jacob: 47:39

And I think that you talked mentioned something as well, as I think is an interesting thing to talk about in terms of environment. So you talked about, you know, having being in the right place, physically being in the right place, mentally being the right location, have the right people around you, which might feel like a, a cop-out, but I know, being from the uk, I'm from the UK and going back there, it's vastly different environment, different culture, different type of people, whatever you might call it. I'm not going to slag off the UK, but it's just different. It's the same when you go to the US, it's the same when you go to Japan, it's the same in all of these different cultures. And that's why I think somewhere like Bali and we'll talk about your move here in a minute, but I think it's somewhere like Bali can be conducive, can be more empowering to that type of philosophy and that type of living. So how has that changed for you? Or how has it become, I guess, more empowering for you?

Ibrahim Turner: 48:35

in that space there's three things that predominantly affect you. It's your thoughts, feelings and your environment, right, and these are all the things that go into your what I call internal state, which is what creates your external reality, right? So if we take environment and we isolate that, what is that? What are the components of that? There's where you physically are, okay. There's your nowadays digital environment. This is a huge one we can get into, because we spend so much of our time in the metaverse, in our phones, in our computers, whatever it is right. Physical people we hang around with. These are all things in our environment, right, that we have influence over. And a lot of the time, you know, we stay confined to our environment because it's just where we grew up, or we maybe go have holidays and whatever it is. But we now live in an age where you have full control over your environment, particularly, you know, you're not chained to a desk and a lot of, even if you have a nine-to-five job, a lot of times, guess what you can from home. You can get time to go and travel while you work and go to other countries Happens all the time.

Ibrahim Turner: 49:41

I coach a lot of people who are also in jobs and so you have the power to change it. The fastest way, in my experience, to change something in your life is just to make an environment change. Because if you think about it, if you're in the same environment, you wake up on the same side of bed. You get up, brush your teeth same time, take a shit the same time, go for a walk, have your coffee. It's like it's the same, which isn't necessarily bad. But if you don't have the life that you want, consider that all of those habits are also a product of your environment. So when you change that environment, it just gives you a whole reframe and a reset if you want to become somebody new and evolve.

Ibrahim Turner: 50:24

A little bit hard to do that when you're still hanging around in your same environment with the same mates who see you in a certain way and maybe, you know, take the piss out of you for trying to meditate or whatever it is right, or do something different, whereas you know, you know for me when I came to Bali oh hi, what's your name, ibrahim? What do you do? I can say anything I want because they don't know me. So I can create this new self. And then, when your environment reflects that back to you and it just accepts that. Well then, so it is right, it is, and so it's a very, very powerful way to to change. And I'd love to actually ask you as well the environments you've been in in the last month, how's that been for you? Like, what have? What have you learned about yourself?

Matt Jacob: 51:07

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Matt Jacob: 52:40

Well, in the last month, well, two major places, angola and Ladakh, northern India Very humbling, I mean. I've been to Africa quite a few times in terms of remote indigenous areas, so I've kind of have experience with tribal populations and how to communicate with them as best a big, white, rich westerner, rich to them right, comes in into their land and, um, very, very humbling. For, to begin with, right, it's just a reminder of, yeah, shit, I have everything. And these people have next to nothing, some of them absolutely nothing. And here I am like trying to get a camera in their face, which is not the intention at all, but I have a camera with me. I'd love to take some photos at some point. How do we go about doing that, which is a whole different story. But, yeah, these people were just still laughing, still dancing, still happy. They have their community, they have their, their tribe, quite literally. Yeah, they want more money. Yeah, there's the next step of maslow's hierarchy to get on top of and get more money and progress and build for their family and get a bigger hut and be maybe nomadic, get some grazing etc. And there's always, there's always something, but they seem to have a better grasp on the present moment and just just being, um, and I can't unpack that I'm not a psychologist, but you know I could I could guess it.

Matt Jacob: 54:08

A few reasons why, and in a similar way, so is ladak. Ladak is very is is a buddhist region of Northern India, so very spiritual, very welcoming, very kind and compassionate. I mean, that is Buddhism, right, it's just kindness and compassion, not just, but those are the two main pillars. And so to have that back at me as a complete stranger in their home, in a thousand-year-old monastery, for example, was, you know, just goosebumps, you know, just so okay. So this is, this is real happiness, or this is real peace, should I say maybe not real happiness, but real peace and uh, and real, real kindness. They don't want anything in return, they don't have anything that they would want from me. So that environment was very, very peaceful and very self-reflective. So I meditated with them and just learned even more about a religion that I know nothing about. It turns out because you know what you read or see only when you speak to these people, and that's why travel is so powerful. You speak to these people, you really kind of get an idea of, okay, there's a lot here. So yeah, those two environments were eye-opening, let's say.

Matt Jacob: 55:31

But if I was to rewind a couple of years when we used to live in Hong Kong and a completely different environment again there was a big reason I wanted to leave Hong Kong. I still it has very close to my heart, but it's very status driven, very money driven, very career driven, and that for an expat, and that's what Hong Kong really is. People go there to further their career, get some more money. It's low tax, save for a few years, kind of go home. That's kind of what it was. And we ended up staying for nearly 10 years because we loved it. But it got to a point. It's like this I was changing fee, was changing to internal ways of changing, and so that's where Bali kind of came into. Okay, this is going to suit us a little bit better.

Ibrahim Turner: 56:14

It's a little bit more open, a little bit more creative, a little bit more welcoming with our type of who we're becoming, let's say so yeah there's three environments in one for you I love that right and you learn so much about yourself and you evolve so much about yourself by being in those different places and they all served different things that for you at different points of your journey, to teach you things, which is why I think it's just so great to just just get out there, just get get a woman plane ticket, get on a plane somewhere.

Matt Jacob: 56:44

Everyone can do it.

Ibrahim Turner: 56:45

Everyone can do it, yeah, yeah, yeah, if Ryanair is like 50 quid for a plane ticket. You could go somewhere.

Matt Jacob: 56:54

Let's talk about, um, something along the same lines, and that's desire, because I feel desire. I talked about this with the monks actually quite a bit. Desire in Buddhism is the cause of all suffering, at any level. If you're starving, you desire food. If you've got a billion, you desire the next billion, and everything in between, even on a daily micro level, it's like, oh, I need food. That's a desire, right? If I don't get food, if you're mean, you don't get food soon, you get angry, right? So how do you balance being versus becoming this age-old kind of battle of being present in the moment, being happy, not necessarily becoming happy, but also becoming the person that you see when you're 90, right, and you look back and say, okay, I'm happy with what I created, I'm happy with the person I became. Does that even enter your vocabulary in terms of, or your thought process and the mentees and the people that you coach? Is that a conversation that's ever present?

Ibrahim Turner: 58:04

For sure. Yeah, desire, it's funny you said that because I wanted to speak about desire after you just spoke about. I'll start with just a quick story from when I was in Africa. This was quite a few years ago now, but I went to Uganda, which is where my dad was originally from, just to work with a school. We built a playground, and I remember them saying if anybody from the village comes to offer you anything, you have to take it. You can't say no because it's very, very rude to a culture, understandably right.

Ibrahim Turner: 58:33

And one day I'm just digging a hole and this little kid comes up to me must be five or six and he speaks a little bit of English and he offers me some maize, like some corn, basically, and I remember what they told me beforehand. So I gracefully accepted it, even though everything inside of me didn't want to take this little child's food off of him, and so I just had to chat with him. How was your day day? And he's got the biggest beaming smile on his face as he's looking up at me and he's just like so happy you're here, I'm so grateful you're. Thank you for everything that you're doing for us in the community. Okay, go on. And what else is going on in your day. He's like well, you know, aside from that, you know I really have too much to eat today, so I'm a little hungry, but apart from that, everything's good.

Ibrahim Turner: 59:19

And this little kid had literally given me the only piece of food that he had, whilst being essentially starving.

Ibrahim Turner: 59:26

And that gives me chills just thinking about that moment, because here he is genuinely content and happy, more happy than I'd ever been in my life, and it completely humbled me, the same way you explained. And so I really thought about that a lot and I unpacked that, and I think a lot of it does come down to desire. He wasn't desiring much else, right, and we in the Western world are exposed to so much of what we could have and what we should have and what gives us status, that we end up desiring more because we see it and we want things we can see as humans. Right, it's like monkey see, monkey do, kind of thing, and so to some extent I do agree with the Buddhist philosophy that desire is the root of suffering. But then what's the other side of that? I actually mentor someone right now who's a young kid and he's actually a Buddhist, and he goes to the monastery and all of that, and this is something I'm constantly mentoring.

Matt Jacob: 1:00:35

But he wants 50k a month.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:00:37

Well, it's super interesting, right? Because he doesn't actually want the money, he wants to just be a monk. But he's really young and he's like well, I kind of feel like I should do something with that. I should do something about life as well. And right now he's cold calling businesses. So imagine this kid. He kind of looks like a monk as well. He's cold calling businesses. So imagine this kid he kind of looks like a monk as well. He's cold calling business. And he's like I just hate this, I'm terrible at it and I'm like, yeah, of course, who would like it?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:01:02

But I said what if you could look at this activity right now as your opportunity to lean into this suffering? You do not desire doing this, you hate it, but what if you could use this as your pathway of surrender? What if you didn't need to go and just sit and meditate in the monastery? What if you could also use this as a form of self-actualization?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:01:24

And the light bulb went off in his head and he felt start to fall in love with it. He started to fall in love with the suffering and so, even though he didn't have the desire to do it, he was still able to find a level of peace and fulfillment inside of it. Right, still have the desire to do it. He was still able to find a level of peace and fulfillment inside of it. Right, still wouldn't choose to do it if he didn't have to. And so, when it comes to our desires, we all have desires, right, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But there's also a. Every emotion has a frequency to it. It has like a resonance. I don't know if you've ever seen like David Hawkins stuff. He's a scientist who basically studies energy and he created this scale of consciousness where at the bottom there's like guilt and shame. It's very, very dense, low vibrational feelings.

Matt Jacob: 1:02:11

Is he the one that wrote Letting Go?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:02:13

Yes, yes, yeah, great book. He's fantastic. That's one of his, his better books, um, and at the top you've got, you know, uh, love emanating.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:02:24

It's like four or 500, and then there's peace, there's joy, there's enlightenment, and enlightenment would be like the Buddha or Jesus or something. Right now we're to. For perspective, 85% of humanity is below 200 and it's not a one-to-one scale, it's a logarithmic scale. So the difference between 20 and 21 is to the power of whatever 999, so it's like a huge difference in this scale. Anyway, desire is somewhere between 1 and 200, so it's actually a pretty low emotion vibration. I think anger is even higher than it, which is is really interesting, right? You might view anger as like a quote, unquote, negative one, right? So desire is actually? It's a low vibrator. I won't say it's good or bad, it's a low vibrational thing to feel. So how do we balance that?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:03:12

I think it comes back to what you said earlier about when you desire something. Is that truly what you desire? Right? Because the more close you are to that truth, then the less that desire is coming from need, lack, scarcity, and the more it's coming from what you might call your true self, your authentic self, your higher self. From my experience, the difference is, when I used to desire things, it was coming from this, like pain and and suffering, of wanting to, like run away and push and now I still that comes up still. So I'm freaking enlightened or anything comes up for sure. But I know what. The difference is right, and I can tell if I'm being pushed by just a more egoic desire or I'm being pulled by more of just like a sense of truth and it's more of like an internal. For me it's like an internal feeling, it's an intuition, it's a sense kind of like this process I'm going through now I'm like is that coming from pushing or pulling? And again, one's not better than the other.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:04:21

If you're at a stage where it is just like I've got to make money or I've got to push, that's fine. Use whatever fuel source you've got. In this moment I think of it like coal might be like a push motivation, so it might be like an angle or a need or a want you can use that. It's going to heat up the room, it's going to create energy, it's going to propel you forward. But you probably don't want to use coal forever, right? It's going to run out, it's going to burn out. It's going to. If you breathe that smoke in for too long, you're going to get frigging lung cancer. So you probably want to change to something more renewable over time, right, a better source of energy.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:05:03

The more you can just surrender to what is in the current moment, the less suffering you experience. Because there's the Buddhist way, let's say, which is you can meditate and, yeah, you're going to feel bliss because there's not really anything going on, right? It's not necessarily that hard to feel a sense of peace in that moment. I think it can help anyone. But then also there's real life and where you are 99.999% of the time, which is stuff's going on. There's challenges, there's unexpected things, life is suffering, as the Buddha would say, right? So then life becomes that teacher Life. You know things don't go the way you want, the way you plan. It's only the expectation and the desire and the want that is greater than what reality is that creates suffering if your expectation is non-existent and you're just open and that doesn't mean you're a boy in Uganda yeah, totally.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:06:04

And that just doesn't mean you don't have goals, it doesn't mean you don't have wants, doesn't mean you're not incredibly ambitious. You can have all of those things and not have this huge expectation and not be led by this desire, and I think that's the difference, you know and you can. You can sort of sense it where it's coming from. There's this, just this non-neediness, non-attachment. There's this peace. It's a nice environment and energy to be in. It's nice, it just feels good inside is the best way I could describe it. And then when you find that in other people it's also very magnetic and attractive and like attracts, like right, um, so that's my experience with it I think, yeah, I think you're right, I I.

Matt Jacob: 1:06:51

It's interesting because when I was, you know it. Speak to any buddhist and and they, they have desires, right, it's even the most enlightened. The desire was to to forego all suffering, like that's their desire, right? So you can't escape desires. It's part of our human nature, I think, just being aware of those desires and how they emanate within your goals and, like you said, expectations, because if you set those desires unrealistically, then you're just going to be miserable all the time because you're not going to have those desires. What I worry about is goal setting and how goal setting can just override everything else. Right, I've got to get there. I've got to get there. I've got to get there and you spend years.

Matt Jacob: 1:07:37

The analogy for me is retirement, right, so many people will work their fucking asses off in jobs they don't really like to save enough money to retire. It just doesn't compute with me. I'm like I don't understand what. It doesn't make any sense. You're going to be miserable 40 years of your life and if you make it to whatever age you want to retire 55, 60, 65, 70, whatever it might be then you can try and find happiness, guaranteed you will not be happy, 100% Right. So I don't know why I got into that, but there is.

Matt Jacob: 1:08:11

I don't think there's any escape with desire. It's just how, like I said, how you frame it. Being aware of it is so important because if you're just trapped and identified with those desirable thoughts, all the time you're just going to, your life's going to run away with you in terms of suffering. So, yeah, I think it's an important dissemination to make and the reason I ask that is because a lot of your business model is how to achieve such and such, right it's.

Matt Jacob: 1:08:43

I'm going to take you from A to B, so that B being the desirable point in time, point in someone's life or point in someone's bank account, whatever it might be. The reason I ask that is how you kind of maybe have an ethical responsibility or some kind of ethical trope where you might just kind of say to the people that you coach, or coach the people that you coach, okay, this isn't the BN1. You know that when you get to 10K a month, 20k a month, what millions, whatever it might be, that isn't maybe what you truly want or will truly make you happy, right, and it comes back to setting that out. You know the first question what do you want out of this happy right?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:09:28

and it comes back to setting that out. You know the first question what do you want out of this? So recently, one of the guys I'm working with his name's abbas. He was really struggling with his business and he was making like one or two care months for quite a long time, but he was devoting everything he could to try and build this thing right and he agreed everything we've talked about today he completely, would wholeheartedly agree with from like an internal and a spiritual level. But that's not where his life was at. His life was at I need to make money right now, right, and so, anyway, we started working together. 16 weeks later, he's making 12k a month, okay.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:10:03

Funnily enough, I did an interview with him at the Seed in Bali, which is where you're going shortly, and he said something really interesting to me. He said, man, I realized what you did. You reverse, catfished me, and I was like okay, what does that mean? He was like you hooked me in with I'm going to make more money, but really what we did is we worked through all of my limiting beliefs, all of my traumas, all of these emotional things I was dealing with, to help me become the person who could actually get to the goal and I was like, yes, you found me out and that's the truth, right, I meet people where their desire is, and if their desire is just to make money, reality is, they're probably not going to resonate with what my message is anyway, because there's plenty of people who can teach you just how to make money right. And so this is also why I'm going through this transition right now. I'm like, hey, do I still want to meet people there or do I also want to meet people who are at this other other point in their life? And I'm kind of doing both right now. So it's interesting just to play out. Um, but yeah, it's. You know, it comes kind of comes back to the starving artist, right, it's like, okay, well, in my example, maybe the purest form of my art is really helping people with that internal stuff, because it's like I know it's like deep down what really matters. But then I've also got to meet people where they're at right to some degree. I've also got to connect with them there, otherwise they're just not going to resonate. And I think we will have a unique blueprint of who we're here to serve, what we're here to create, and again, that's where the internal journey comes back to. For somebody else, maybe it is becoming a monk and that's their truth, right. For somebody else, maybe it's just I need to make a ton of money in this lifetime to fulfill whatever right. For me, it's like I was saying I'm just still figuring it out in real time and it's an evolution.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:11:57

Coming back to one of the things you said earlier, briefly, you know, human being versus a human becoming. I love that because that's what we are. We're always in this process of becoming. We're evolving. We're not stationary beings. Every morning, when I wake up and I open my eyes, I imagine a newborn baby opening their eyes for the first time and how they would see the world. Everything is brand new, everything is unexplored, and I try my best to look at the world through that lens, because every everything is new, everything is unexplored. Right same way with my partner, maggie. You know who are you today, who are you becoming today? I'm not thinking about you from a year ago, because you're a totally new person. I think that's how we continuously evolve. Completely forgot where I was going with that one, but it was a yeah, good answer. We got there. Yeah, we got there.

Matt Jacob: 1:12:54

I think, if I was to speak for artists generally, what we would want to do in life our desire in terms of being becoming desires goals is to be able to be the true form of who we want to be. As an artist, ie stay true to our art but also make money enough that we can still do that. And that's the biggest difficulty I see with my audience, but just with the industry in general. It's like so many let's take photographers many, many photographers choose to go and do client work right, but as a creative, they get strangled by the client brief, so they end up just being essentially an employee or someone who's being tasked to do a job rather than getting paid for their creativity.

Matt Jacob: 1:13:46

So when we're talking about someone that you coach, maybe having that, being able to achieve something along those lines almost like the panacea of art it's well, I can do whatever, not do whatever I want, but I can still have full creativity and get paid for it and not necessarily do stuff I don't want to do. I can obviously, obviously that's the dream, but unfortunately, generally speaking, art doesn't pay the bills or doesn't pay enough to go and retire early and go and be able to do what we want. So that's all I would say on that and, speaking to maybe some of my audience, that's what we want, that's how we want to kind of go about it. So again, I don't know what the point of that was. I can't remember what we were talking about.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:14:35

The only thing I'd add on to that is if that truly is your dream, if the ultimate dream is to be able to create whatever it is you want to create from your truest self-expression and be really well paid for it, if that's the dream everybody has from a practical level, wouldn't it make sense that you would have to really put in a lot of work to get to that stage? Wouldn't it make sense that you would need to really hone your craft, really have to become the best possible version of yourself to have the right to do that? Take Michelangelo as the example. Spent years and years and years and years and years on just one project right to have the right to do that. Take Michelangelo, for example. Spent years and years and years and years on just one project right. Are you willing to do that?

Matt Jacob: 1:15:16

I think by me saying I'm talking like the upper echelons of artists like to spend time to be that Michelangelo and spend three months on one project and not have to worry about okay, I've got to go and do this client job, or I've got to post the next video, or I've got to do this, or I've got to do that, I've got to sell an ebook or whatever it is. I'm going to sell prints, and so you kind of get distracted and then come back. But that's just life. But yeah, you're totally right. I mean, it depends what you define as doing the work. If you say that to most people it's like well, yeah, I'm going to work day in, day out, 16 hours a day to be better at making money right, because I've got to pay the bills so I can do those projects. But what you mean, I think, is working harder on yourself and working harder on your process and and your art, right, but again, that's chasing something all the time it's. It's it's chasing something rather than just being in it. That makes sense. I mean.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:16:16

I think we're talking a little bit too esoteric here, but yeah, I, I guess all I'm saying is like, if that's the goal that most artists have to be able to create the art they want to create and get paid well for it it probably makes sense that that's gonna have a level of difficulty to achieve that right personally and professionally. That's all I'm saying, and um, and so maybe it should be a little bit hard, right, but if you really want it, you will sacrifice.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:16:49

And when I say sacrifice, I don't mean go and work some job you hate, I mean sacrifice your fears, sacrifice your sense of who you were, you know. Sacrifice other things to be able to put that into your creative process, to be able to become best possible creator that you can be. Because there's always going to be those people at the very, very top who get rewarded very, very highly, and if you look at what they're doing, I can bet you they're just obsessed with that process, doing it all the time right, and probably for the majority of their career they weren't having success. It probably took them a really long time to do that right, and so it's getting again.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:17:27

Coming back to asking yourself the real questions understanding who am I? Are you willing to do that? Because you can have, you can achieve anything you want, it you want. I truly believe you can do that. You have to be willing to put in what's required to get there and then it's just. Are you actually willing? And then, do you really want that or are you willing, or do you actually want something else?

Matt Jacob: 1:17:50

or do you want the, or do you want the idea of it right?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:17:54

yeah, it's very common.

Matt Jacob: 1:17:56

Yes, yeah, speaking of ideas and wanting and desires, what is? Where does social media fit into all of this? And comes up in pretty much every conversation have, because it's a big part of creators lives now, and photographers lives and filmmakers lives. It's some people choose not to use it, but most of the time we understand that it's a necessary evil, and I know it is in in your industry as well. I'm thinking more in society in general. How do you, how do you kind of see social media in terms of the good and bad and how one one being an educated person in the west how should we use it as a tool for good?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:18:36

I say social media comes into your environment, right, it's your digital environment. So if we understand that environment's going to be one of the biggest things that affects us, we want to be very intentional about how we choose to interact with that thing. So I think that's the first thing, right. Social media. I'm very, very intentional. I was on a coaching call a couple days ago.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:18:56

One of the guys asked me how you know I'm uh, I lost my phone for two days in barcelona and he was like it was the best two days of my life. I was like, well, why is that? Because I was present, I didn't have any distractions. Now I have my phone back. I'm noticing it creep back in. Hmm, that's interesting, right.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:19:16

What are you doing on your phone? Going on social media for three, four hours a day? Why, I just get sucked into it, you know, okay, so if you're a creator, you you're probably gonna need to be on social media in some way, right? Just because that's the world we live in. Um, so first of all, just come to acceptance with that, right, because anything you resist persists, right? And so if you're constantly thinking like social media is bad, social media is this, then of course there's always going to be this like tension between it. Right, for me personally, it's just figuring out what that relationship looks like. So for me, you know, my business was selling social media, essentially, right, that was like as a marketing agency, and so I learned very, very quickly that the best drug dealers don't get high off their own supply, and so if you're sharing what your craft is on social media, you have to look at yourself as a producer. You have to look at yourself as a producer of social media and not a consumer, and you have to look at it like a business tool. And that's really the difference's it's going from being that consumer to that producer.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:20:30

Because now, the way I look at social media is just that, like, if you go on my phone, I can show you it. After it's this empty screen. There's no apps, apart from four which I use every single day. All the other ones are hidden or deleted. If you go on my Instagram, everything is muted completely, so nothing's popping up at me. Why is that? Well, if you're going on there with the best intentions to share your work, guess what? You're going to get sucked in. Because they've spent billions of dollars making sure you're going to get sucked in.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:21:01

So, again, why fight that? Just make it easier for yourself, right? Just clear everything out. It's like you start with a blank canvas for a reason. When you create a new piece of art, if there's all stuff over it, you can't create on top of it, right? It's the same with social media. Create that blank canvas first and again. It's like money. It's not good or bad, it's just a tool. Social media is not good or bad, it's just a tool.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:21:27

My social media is super positive. I only have good experiences at 99.9% of the time. Mostly it's my girlfriend sending me dog videos and cat videos, right? Which I love. So I'd say that's the most important thing. I wouldn't even call it a necessary evil, because again, it's looking at it with a negative connotation. Is there plenty of people? Is it? Is it used to spread evil? Yeah, for sure. Is it used to spread good? Yeah, for sure it's. How do you want to interact with it? Because wherever you put your attention, wherever you put your energy, is what will create more of it, right? Um, some of the best things I've all of my closest friends I've met on social media. I met maggie through a friend on social media, you know. So I'm so grateful for social media and that's the.

Matt Jacob: 1:22:22

You get to choose your own beliefs and that's the belief I get to choose, because it's the belief that serves me yeah, I think if I was to choose, if I was to remember the bad stuff that I've taken from social media compared to the good stuff I, like you said, I've met so many amazing people through social media and being inspired as a photographer, like seeing other artists oh, I wouldn't be able to see that. I'd have to go to every gallery in the world and even then I'd probably touch one percent of the photographers, you know. So if I was to think about it like that, I can't even remember the bad stuff. You know, I, I, I know I've had bad experiences, whether that's people giving me bad experiences or me taking them. Um, I can't, I, I wouldn't be able to remember, but I remember all the good stuff. So I think that's a good way to frame it for sure.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:23:08

No light without dark. There's no dark without light. It's our responsibility to choose how we engage with everything. Right, that's on us. No one teaches you that, though. That's the problem. We're all still the guinea pigs. Really. We really are.

Matt Jacob: 1:23:26

If you think about the school curriculum these days, it's so antiquated. You don't get taught social media ethics. You don't get taught the value of money, which I think is just blows my mind. You don't get taught about, uh, other cultures really like travel to other cultures and education in that respect. You don't get taught so many important things. You don't get taught about mental health. You don't really get taught about physical health. You just have to go do run around a gym. You know it's just weird. Anyway, I didn't. Let's not talk about education. Um, is there anything that you want to touch upon that we haven't kind of discussed? We've put the world to rights, we've solved everything. Is there anything else that we need to talk about?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:24:04

oh, I said last thing, just building off of what you just said mental health. It's really interesting the time we're living right now. If you look at men under the age of 45 in the Western world, the biggest killer of men under 45 is themselves from suicide. So that's the world we currently live in, right, and so to me really got a responsibility to look at that and why that is happening, and I and I think there's so many reasons, the reasons why I think loneliness is a big one. I think so many men are lonely uh, men and women so many men, but it's just.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:24:45

It's just loneliness, right. That's why porn is the most viewed thing on the internet. All this stuff is. I think men have lost their role in society, um, with the rise of masculinity and women, which all for women's empowerment and equality, all of that but it's kind of left men a little bit roleless and confused in a way. And the reason I want to talk about this is because I don't think many people have talked about a solution to this for men, like some people, like the Andrew Taits, who've said go back to women being in the kitchen and you know, that's the solution. Okay, great, like sure I think there is.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:25:25

We're moving into a time now where people like us actually, who are moving across the world, doing things differently, have are kind of paving the way for what, um, that looks like for men and and and has as we, how we just live as a society. And I think that what's really important is for men to be able to understand your roles, your worth, and to stay true to your masculine values, what your desires are as well, right, and to be a, but also for women to be able to say yeah, you know, actually I do want to go and make money. I do want, want to have freedom, but actually I also really want to have a family and I also really want to have kids, and and how we how do we then like evolve? To both connect that together, I think, is a really important thing, and I think, because we haven't figured that out on a mainstream level yet, I think that's a big part of why, uh, there's this mental health crisis and epidemic, and so, if anyone is um going through that right now, whether it's personally or in a relationship, I just think it's a really important thing to to consider, and I think the best thing men can do is, just as a practical thing is just find other men to just be able to talk openly with. It's so important, powerful and healing for men to be able to have open, vulnerable conversations and doesn't mean being emotional and complaining and whatever. It just means being honest. And if you're such a big, strong alpha male man, why are you afraid of your own emotions, right?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:27:01

I think it's something that we need to do as men. We need to take responsibility for, like, what's really going on, because we just suffer in silence as men. We don't talk about it. If we're going through something hard, we just kind of like get on with it, which is kind of just the mentality, and I think as men, as men, yeah, part of us sometimes we just gotta do what we gotta do, sometimes we just gotta get on with it. But also I think we need to um, take responsibility for our mental health and I think that's really, really important. Um. So I just wanted to just touch on that briefly, because no one really talks about it.

Matt Jacob: 1:27:35

For men, we kind of just get forgotten about a little bit, um, and it's, yeah, just really important I think this needs to be another hour's conversation it's a whole different topic, but I agree with you and, having suffered a little bit myself in previous years, I know certainly what you said there in terms of open conversations with other men. Um, that there is something about our. We talked about social media. It doesn't help, but there's something about an identity, ego, status that men can't let go of. I think it's improved a lot just knowing people and and even my best friend, we talk more openly than we ever did for the first 15 years of our relationship because we've gone through our own little mini midlife crisis. We're both 41, 42, he's 40 and so we've had, we've had our years of a little bit of struggle, depression, anxiety and all those kind of where do I fit in this life type of thing, what is our role and what's my purpose, all of the kind of existential questions that we all have. But I think men do have a lot of rhetoric gets thrown females away, and quite rightly. They've suffered in so many areas of life for hundreds of years. But that has left a gap, like you said, with the male role and where we fit. And stats don't lie. If so many men are committing suicide in the UK I don't know about other countries, but I heard the same stat in the UK for years now Not a new thing. Then something is going wrong, and it's not all the fault of men, right? It's so easy for God. Just grow up, get on with it. And this you know my dad's generation and the generation before him and that's kind of pull your bootstraps up and just get on with it. Stiff upper lips, certainly in the UK, right, go to the US. And this is an interesting comparison, because if you talk to anyone in the US, a general American, and you tell them what you do, they're like all for it, tell me more. You say that in the UK they're like either they call you a girl, right, or they say I'd get a proper job, or it's something like they'll take the piss, but really they're either jealous or they're not very supportive.

Matt Jacob: 1:29:51

I'm talking generally speaking, and the same kind of philosophy goes through mental health. I think. You take the David Goggins type people. You know him, yeah, of course everyone knows him. What's the first thing he would say if you said I'm struggling, get the fuck on with it, go for a run, don't be a pussy, right.

Matt Jacob: 1:30:16

Those kinds of figures are both inspirational, but they don't. They detract from people having real struggles and not even people having real struggles, just people just want to chat to someone right, feel like how could you have a best friend that you can't really like, dive deep or even cry in front of right, or just go for a beer and like like I'm really struggling, like I don't know whether you can help me, but I want to have a conversation about it, and I think I think that it's almost like we talked about awareness of one's thoughts. Just having that first step, it can open up so many possibilities, but I don't. I still don't feel like there's that system there. Right, you've got the tinder systems, which don't help anything or anyone, even though there are many success stories.

Matt Jacob: 1:30:55

But I think just having that type of social media um approach to relationships is just weird. It's just weird for me. Um, as is social media, it doesn't help these types of environments because the algorithm promotes despair, promotes anger, promotes hate way more than it does. Okay, you need some help. Let's, let's, let's get some help your way. Right, that's just the way it is. So I think I agree with you in every respect. I think we would need a lot more time to dive into that. But, off the back of that where? Where can I mean? I have a couple of questions for you, because I think I would assume most of your, the people that you coach, are men, right, all of them, or do you have any females?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:31:41

I have the occasional women as well, do you? Think that is. I'm a man, so I can speak to. I can understand men more, but I do get women as well. Who will come through, who I'll speak to?

Matt Jacob: 1:32:00

Do you think it's more the coach, not necessarily the goal or the type of?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:32:07

I think a big part of it is just we attract Our customers and clients are a reflection of us. So I do think that's a big part of it.

Matt Jacob: 1:32:19

Way more photographers are men than female. Interesting, yeah, but why? And I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It's the same with pilots, it's the same with nurses, but the other way around. These statistics don't lie. We could probably unpack for hours. Why are there more female nurses than men? Is it the opportunities? Is it the type of vocation that they just naturally, through genetics, drawn to? Is it hundreds of years of history in that role? What is it? But why take photography, relatively recent invention? Why? Why? Why men have talked about this with a couple of female guests I had who are incredible filmmakers, but they've had to work extra hard just to kind of make a name for themselves.

Matt Jacob: 1:33:01

Um, so yeah, we we don't know, but interest it's an interesting I think part of it is.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:33:08

I guess there's like the. You know everyone loves the camera and the gear side of it, right, and I think as men our minds work a little bit more logically and mechanically than the female mind, which is typically more based on emotions. So obviously we both have both right. But I think maybe that's part of it. There's that intrigue there into technology and men are mostly the inventors of technology and I think it's just because of how our mind works If I take a stab in the dark. Maybe that's part of it.

Matt Jacob: 1:33:38

I'm going to get so many female haters now, it's because men have more opportunities.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:33:42

Good, it will boost your algorithm for your podcast. We love you, men, and women.

Matt Jacob: 1:33:47

Well, on that note, let's boost the algorithm and say thank you very much. It's an absolute pleasure to talk to you. It's good to do it not necessarily over an informal coffee, but in more of a formal setting. So some real insights and some real inspiration. Thank you very much for joining me.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:34:03

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks, mate.

Matt Jacob: 1:34:05

Cheers, mate. The midlife crisis. We're both well, I'm 42, he's 40. And so we've had. We've had our years of a little bit of struggle, depression, anxiety and all those kind of where do I fit in this life type of thing. What is our role and what's my purpose? You know all of the kind of existential questions that we all have, but I think do have a lot of rhetoric.

Matt Jacob: 1:34:32

Gets thrown females away, and quite rightly. They've suffered in so many areas of life for hundreds of years. But that has left a gap, like you said, with the male role and where we fit. And there's stats. Don't lie. If so many men committing suicide in the uk I don't know about other countries, but I heard the same stat in the uk for years now. Not a new thing then something is going wrong and it's not all the fault of men, right? It's so easy for god. Just grow up, get on with it. And this you know, my dad's generation and the generation before him, and that's kind of pull your, pull your bootstraps up and just get on with it. Stiff upper lips, certainly in the uk. Right, go to the us. And this is an interesting comparison because if you talk to anyone in the us a general american and you tell them what you do, they're like all for it, tell me more. You know. You say that in the uk they're like either either they they call you a girl, right, or they say I'd get a proper job, or it's something like they'll take the piss. But really they're either jealous or they're not very supportive.

Matt Jacob: 1:35:38

I'm talking generally speaking, um, and the same kind of philosophy goes through mental health. I think, um, you take the, the david goggins type people. You know him, yeah, yeah, of course everyone knows him. What's the first thing he would say if you said I'm struggling, get the fuck on with it, go for a run, don't be a pussy, right. Those kind of figures are both inspirational, but they don't. They detract from people having real struggles. And not even people having real struggles, just people just want to chat to someone.

Matt Jacob: 1:36:09

Right, feel like, how could you have a best friend that you can't really like, dive deep or even cry in front of right, or just go for a beer and like, like, I'm really struggling, like I don't know whether you can help me, but I want to have a conversation about it, and I think. I think that it's almost like we talked about awareness of one's thoughts. Just having that first step, it can open up so many possibilities, but I still don't feel like there's that system there. Right, you've got the Tinder systems, which don't help anything or anyone, even though there are many success stories. But I think just having that type of social media approach to relationships is just weird. It's just weird for me, as is social media. It doesn't help these types of environments, because the algorithm promotes despair, promotes anger, promotes hate way more than it does.

Matt Jacob: 1:37:06

Okay, you need some help. Let's get some help your way. Right, that's just the way it is. So I think I agree with you in every respect. I think we would need a lot more time to dive into that. But off the back of that, where where can I mean? I have a couple of questions for you, because I think I would assume most of your, the people that you coach, are men, right, all of them, or do you have any females?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:37:28

I have the occasional women as well, do you think? That is it's. I'm a man, so I can, so I can speak to. I can understand men more, um, but I do get. I do get women as well. Who will, who will come through, who I'll speak to?

Matt Jacob: 1:37:47

do you think it's more the coach, not necessarily the goal or the type of?

Ibrahim Turner: 1:37:53

um, I think a big part of it is just we attract, like our customers and clients are a reflection of us. So I do think, right, I do think that's a big part of it, um more photographic way.

Matt Jacob: 1:38:06

More photographers are men than female. Like, interesting, yeah, but why? And I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it's the same with pilots, it's the same with nurses, but the other way around, right, these statistics don't lie. We could probably unpack for hours like, well, why are there more female nurses than men? Is it the opportunities? Is it the type of vocation that they just naturally, through genetics, drawn to? Is it hundreds of years of history in that role? Is it? What is it? But why? You know? Take photography relatively recent invention. Why? Why? Why, men have talked about this with a couple of female guests I had who are incredible filmmakers, but they've had to work extra hard just to kind of make a name for themselves.

Matt Jacob: 1:38:49

So yeah, we don't know, but it's an interesting.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:38:54

I think part of it is. I guess there's like the. You know everyone loves the camera and the gear side of it, right? And I think as men our minds work a little bit more logically and mechanically than the female mind, which is typically more based on emotions. So obviously we both have both right, but I think maybe that's part of it. There's that intrigue there into technology and men are mostly the inventors of technology and I think it's just because of how our our mind works if I take a stab in the dark.

Matt Jacob: 1:39:24

Maybe that's part of it I'm gonna get so many female haters now it's because men have more opportunities.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:39:29

Good, it will boost your algorithm for your podcast. We love you, men and women.

Matt Jacob: 1:39:34

Well, on that note, let's boost the algorithm and say thank you very much. It's an absolute pleasure to talk to you. It's good to do it not necessarily over an informal coffee, but in a more of a formal setting. So some real insights and some real inspiration. Thank you very much for joining me.

Ibrahim Turner: 1:39:50

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks, mate. Cheers mate.