The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
The Creative (de) Coupling - Josiah Gordon, E067
Is art coupled with our own struggles, and our own stories?
In this episode, American photographer Josiah Gordon shares his journey from a childhood inspired by National Geographic to a career focused on the connections between people, nature and himself.
He discusses the creative process behind his work while examining the balance between local communities and the environment in remote destinations like Raja Ampat and the Bolivian salt flats. Josiah emphasises the importance of pushing boundaries and experimenting to discover your unique voice. He believes that curiosity and consistency are crucial, offering valuable insights for anyone in the creative field.
What we talk about:
- How to find fulfilment in your work
- Balancing creativity with sustainability
- Tips for staying consistent in your journey
- How to build a lasting creative career
- Capturing stories that inspire others
Find Josiah’s work here:
Website: https://www.josiahwg.com/
Instagram: @josiahwg
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@josiahgordon865
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Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation one frame at a time. I'm your host, matt Jacob, and thank you so much for joining me in today's conversation. And our guest today is Josiah Gordon, an exceptional creative with a wide-ranging portfolio that spans photography, filmmaking and generally storytelling. Known for his innovative style and deep exploration of themes such as art, human connection and nature, josiah pushes the boundaries of visual storytelling with an approach that blends technical skill with soulful reflection. His work has taken him across the globe, where he captures not just images but emotions and real, meaningful encounters, and in this episode we explored Josiah's unique creative philosophy and how he navigates the tension between artistry, audience capture and commercial demands. We discussed his storytelling techniques, his dabbles in filmmaking, the transformative power of travel on his creative vision and how moments of challenge or joy can lead to personal breakthroughs. We also explored what makes him happy above any photography pursuits and touched what mastery really means, how to become a savant and how future generations of photographers can tap into their creative powers.
Speaker 1:It was such a privilege to have Josiah on the show tap into their creative powers. It was such a privilege to have Josiah on the show. I've been a fan of him for such a long time and I hope you find the conversation as fascinating as I did to tap into his mindset as such an incredible artist. So now I bring you Josiah Gordon. Just hi, gordon, welcome to the Moon. Podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:It's so good being here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we finally got you here, yeah.
Speaker 2:And what brings you to Bali? Mostly visiting friends. I have a lot of friends here over the years that I've been coming, and then also I just did a trip to Rajahampat, so it was just a mixture of the two.
Speaker 1:Nice, rajahampat, special place, very special place. Fertile waters, yes, and protected to some extent, right.
Speaker 2:There's some nice biodiversity protection.
Speaker 2:It's actually very well protected yeah um, from what I've seen, um, no, fishing, no, I mean, the locals do, but very conservatively. Yeah, um, and and actually, from what I've noticed, the locals are, are very conscientious about how they and they and they've been like that for centuries um, like, for example, there's a they, they cultivate sea cucumbers in in certain areas and they'll, they'll mark off islands. So it'll be like three years to cultivate sea cucumbers on this island and then they don't touch it for years and then they'll go to the next one. So they, they, they already have a pretty environmentally conscious way of doing things there, and it's even more protected now by the government, because I, I would, I've been diving all around the world and I would say it's the most incredible.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, yeah, I have to agree with you on that, definitely my number one place I've been to underwater. But we're going to get to your underwater antics later on.
Speaker 1:I wanted to start by something I think I saw on one of your platforms or some of your Instagram posts, which I like the way you either talk personally or you explain the situation with what you're doing. I think I saw on there how you described yourself as and maybe even your profile, but you described yourself as a professional button pusher. Yeah right, yeah, tell, expand that for me, elaborate for me what you do and and kind of why you do it well, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2:Uh, so I'm a photographer. Um, I've been doing it, man, maybe close to 15 years now, if you, if you include everything. Um, since the time I first picked up a camera. Um, and I've always enjoyed art. As a kid I I collected nat geo magazines. I had a little stack of them in the corner and I would never read them, I would just look at the pictures and picture books, like just anything that had pictures. I always loved it. Um, and then I picked up a camera, had a little point and shoot and just loved it, had it everywhere with me everywhere I went and going into college I was studying public communication and I was a photographer at that time in the sense that I still had my camera everywhere I went.
Speaker 2:It's what I did in my free time, but I never really saw it as a career I could pursue. It just didn't really register that that was something that I could do because I thought I needed a real job and I didn't even know what that meant or looked like. And then, slowly through during college, I was getting small, small jobs here and there doing photography and that turned into yeah, that just slowly turned into a career. I dropped out of college and started pursuing that, and then I guess where the professional button presser comes in is. I've just always loved humor, and so it's just a reminder not to take things seriously and not to take myself too seriously and push people's buttons as well as the cameras, push other people's buttons?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I think you also described yourself having a fun meter, or your friends describe you as having a yeah Pushing other people's buttons. Yeah, exactly, I think you also described yourself having a fun meter, or your friends describe you as having a fun meter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have my one of my best friends. He told me Josiah has a fun meter and it always needs to be in red and if it's not, there's a problem, and he's going to make it a problem. Too much fun, is there such a thing?
Speaker 1:yeah well no, according to my other friends, yeah, but so when? When do you get serious? You know, if I, if I look at a lot of your work which has so much meaning and emotion in it, a lot of it very, um, not serious, but there's some drama in there, there's. I mean, if I was, we would take one of the most amazing short films I've seen, in Angelita. That is something that isn't necessarily fun on the outset. There's layers to it, obviously, and there's a story there. Where does the fun end and the serious?
Speaker 2:desire begin. I think for me, if, when it comes to my work or the stuff that I enjoy doing, if there's not a level of fun involved and for me to enjoy I need to have fun. And so if I'm not, if I'm not enjoying it, um, I think it shows in the end product um for anything, right? So, um, there, there, I guess there is a cutoff for fun and seriousness. When, um, like, once the final product is finished and the viewer is seeing it, um, it tends to be more serious, but the process of getting it was more fun, so, um, I don't know if that's a good answer.
Speaker 1:What has that always been you, or is that something you also have to work on? I mean, I'm talk about this with many artists, and some rely on their own not misery, but traumatic experiences and suffering to to garner some of the most impactful work that they've done, and others are the opposite right, whereas it's just that they believe that internal happiness leads to external success in whatever they might be going. Is that something you work on or that's just who you are?
Speaker 2:I think emotionality plays a role in anything, whether it comes from happy emotions or sad emotions. So I think you can harness both to create equally impressive things. Um, I don't, I don't know whether there's a right or wrong way to do that, but I think for me personally um, I don't necessarily, I think that just comes naturally, like if I'm going through a tough time, naturally the stuff I'm doing in those times tends to allude to that, and vice versa. But I don't think I fully set out when I'm planning on doing something to portray a certain emotion. I think it's just kind of more natural.
Speaker 1:Why do you do it in the first place? What is it about photography? I know it's a very difficult explanation. I always struggle with it. I love pictures right. I used to collect National Geographic as well. It's exactly the same thing. Didn't read, still don't. I'd rather look at photos than read.
Speaker 2:Why do you think it is that photography you are drawn to photography in the way that you are? Um, yeah, it's a good question. I I mean simply saying I just like it. You know, I think I think I'm, I've definitely been the type of person my whole life that, um, I become very fixated on things, but for short periods of times and then I lose interest in it. Um, and that's been throughout my life and even even now, like I, I, I gone, I went, I'm. I've been going through a phase where, like, I'm building bookshelves and I'm like I need to fill it up with books and like read all these books and and I'm kind of coming out of that now and I'm like I just spent so much money on books, like I don and like read all these books and and I'm kind of coming out of that now and I'm like I just spent so much money on books, like I don't even care about these books, you know, and so so it's like I have these things, that, um, like I go through phases, but photography's really been the only constant in my life that I haven't lost interest in. I've lost interest in types of photography.
Speaker 2:I would say, like this happened during COVID time. I had been doing landscape photography for six years at that point and I felt myself burning out. And I thought I was burning out on photography and just kind of wanted to switch things up in my life and maybe even choose a different career and started looking into like construction work and that kind of thing. Um, and then when COVID hit, I was kind of stuck in one place and it forced me to step outside of my box, cause I couldn't travel and go to landscapes Um, these beautiful landscapes, cause I was in Georgia at the time and just didn't offer offer those types of scenery. And so I had to step out of my box and think more creatively, like how I could still take pictures in that time, but it was completely out of the zone that I had been doing it previously.
Speaker 2:And then I fell back in love with it. I started shooting film. I started messing with like, double like, started getting more technical with the camera gear that I owned and trying different things out, and it made me fall in love with it again. Um, and so I I think it's helped that there's so many avenues that you can take within photography and it's not stuck to just one thing, and it allows many, many different ways for creative expression, and so that's one of the reasons that I think I haven't lost interest in it, because if there's something that starts getting boring, then I can just switch over and try something completely new out and feel like I'm starting all over again.
Speaker 1:And you still feel like you have that freedom to do that, or the bigger and more successful you become, do you feel a little bit more trapped by that identity or that style that you currently or have had?
Speaker 2:I think I did for a while. Um, like I, I felt trapped in landscape photography, for example. For a long time. Um, and I was I was scared to publish other work that I have been doing that I enjoyed more because I was scared the audience that I had cultivated wouldn't enjoy it, because it was something completely different.
Speaker 2:But as I started incorporating it into the stuff I was publishing, I found that, yes, there was a lull in the beginning of people transferring over to liking the newer stuff that I was putting out, but over time it became part of my identity as a photographer and so now I feel a lot more freedom in experimenting and trying different things out. And I think a lot of it is because I feel already established and so if I put something out that people don't enjoy as much, I have a lot of background that people can't just be like, oh man, he sucks, because they can see the other stuff that I've done, even if they don't like a certain thing. They just don't like the new thing that I put out. So essentially it's like I don't feel trapped because I'm established already as an artist and I'm a lot more what's the right word Confident. I'm a lot more confident in what I do, and so I can experiment a lot more because of that.
Speaker 1:And you probably have had a loyal audience for a while now. So that even if you put out some work that maybe some people aren't that happy with they more happy with you you know they will follow you rather than the work person yeah, maybe.
Speaker 2:So I think, I look, I think before I worried a lot more about the people who followed my work more than the work itself, right and and now I've kind of flipped over and so maybe that's the case, but I also like don't care as much you know I mean.
Speaker 2:So I'm just kind of at that point, or it's like um, I'm so appreciative, obviously, for the, the people who do follow my work and have supported me over the years, because I wouldn't be what I am now without those people. So it's not a matter of like. I don't care about the people who have supported me, it's more so. But I care about the work a lot because it's who I am, and so I have to be careful not to lose myself to what people expect of me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and with that work, how much has come from travel? You've traveled your whole life. Give us a background how travel and photography have kind of interacted with each other um, yeah, I mean so I, I grew up a international kid.
Speaker 2:Um, and true, yeah, travel has always been a core part of my being. Like I've never really had a home. I would say, um, like, if you ask me where I'm from, I I always just say where I'm living at the moment, cause I have a difficult time, like, unless you want a 20 minute conversation, when you're just trying to get one sentence from someone you know. I just, I just you know, I just say where I'm at now. So, definitely, I think growing up that way has allowed me to be on the move a lot. You're always experiencing and seeing new and different things and it and it, and it definitely helps a photography career when you're constantly photographing different things and, um, um, different cultures. You know, whatever photography style you have, um, it lends itself to that so what?
Speaker 1:what style is that? Now? How would you define what type of photography?
Speaker 2:I think a mixture of landscape and underwater. I mean, it's really just the environment that I'm in. I think I just dabble you know, but I personally love. Surrealness, I would say, is what I go for and what I try to do. Obviously, it all doesn't fall under that, but that's my kind of go-to. What I love is a surreal looking photo.
Speaker 1:You say that and I think of one of your images and for those that are watching, we'll pull up on screen now but of I don't have it on my phone to show you. I'm trying to describe it. Of I don't have it on my phone to show you, I'm trying to describe it. It might have been carl carl shakur, actually, but it was someone, for looks like they're falling. I think you're in the salt flats and the reflection and they're almost suspended. Yeah yeah tell us how you tell me.
Speaker 2:I'm more interested how you, how you created that so yeah, so um, that was my friend clay alive like clay, yeah, yeah super great guy super creative he's on the wall downstairs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he is yeah, he is.
Speaker 2:Um, I had him, we were, we were at the salt flats and, um, yeah, I guess, for those who listening who don't know the bolivian salt flats, it's, it's an area the size of jamaica and if you drive out, the like in certain times of the year after the rainy season, there's about two inches of water that cover the whole surface of this, of this area. Why is that big? Have a 360 view and you see nothing but a giant mirror, um, on all, on all sides of you, and it really lends itself to just like. Whatever the sky looks like is what the ground looks like, and so, just every day is a different experience, because you know, uh, how the cloud patterns are, the sunset that we get, or, um, rainbows, or you know whatever weather patterns you can think of in the sky you're looking at on the ground as well. And so, yeah, we went out there and just brought a stool and I just had him lay out on a stool and then I just Photoshopped the stool out afterwards, okay cool, incredible shot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, I think you had a video on there as well. You can tell I've been scouring some of your platforms recently Of you pointing to. I think you got it live on video of a lightning bolt. Yeah, was that the same trip? Yeah, well.
Speaker 2:I've been there I don't know if it was the same one. I've been there three times now, two times, I don't remember but every time I spend about two or three weeks there and I'll just stay on this hot flats the whole time. Incredible, but yeah, I mean just the weather conditions are crazy, like lightning, storms off in the distance, and those reflect onto the ground as well. So it's just, it's otherworldly, man.
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Speaker 1:All right, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, I definitely get the surreal nature throughout all of your images. Actually, where did that intent come from? I we talked, you talked about your intent almost changing one when you started was more for your audience. Now it's essentially more for you. Was that because you, you know, became a little bit unhappy with essentially serving an audience rather than creating what you wanted to create? Or where did, where did that change in intention come from?
Speaker 2:um, I don't necessarily I wouldn't necessarily say I was unhappy, I think. I think it's just part of growing, growing into who you are as a person and understanding, and so I think at the time I was, I was very much so enjoying what I was doing, but I started feeling bored by it or started feeling unfulfilled is a better word. So it wasn't necessarily because at that moment I was like, oh, I'm creating for an audience and I don't like it. I wasn't having those thoughts. It was more so around the idea that I was like what I'm doing right now doesn't feel super fulfilling. And yeah, just over time, you just kind of, you become more comfortable.
Speaker 2:As you know, whatever type of art you do, the more you do it, the more you understand and the more, the more you understand what you like and and that comes through experimentation and trying and, and I think over time, I just kind of and and and I and I wouldn't even go as far as saying is it's as it's always going to be this way, in the sense of like, this is the style that I, this is the style that I like right now, this is what I enjoy doing right now. Um, and I know that is fulfilling to me in in an artistic way. Um and so that's, that is the style that I pursue now because I do find more fulfillment in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're getting deep, aren't we? We're getting quite serious.
Speaker 1:I'll try and bring the fun meter back up, but one more question in terms of a philosophical sense, I guess, and I think travel might play into this for you. It certainly does for me, but I'm interested to hear your take on it. Does travel really act as a source of your? It's a two-part question. Does travel really act as, like, a source of your creativity? If not, where does that source really come from? But, more importantly, when you travel and I'm talking about this with many people at the moment, especially groups of beginner photographers who want to do photography in different countries how do you not be a tourist and how do you really kind of challenge the stereotypes of tourism photography, if that makes sense? Because as we we grow as a population around the world right, we were talking about this earlier with ladak, but you know, different westernized, different cultures, modernized, different cultures start to get used to tourism and tourists. Does that ever play into your creativity and source of like? Okay, I need to do something different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, everyone wants to do something different. I think, well, I few, few, few answers in there. I think, um, as far as, like, how to not be a tourist with photography, I, I think, no matter what, when you go to a new place, you are a tourist. You can't, you can't escape that you're, it's not your culture, it's not, it's not what you're used to. So there is an experience there for you and you're a tourist to experiencing it. Um, uh, so I, I think I don't, I don't think the two are necessarily separatable, separatable, um, but when it comes to creating something new, I mean, I've always looked at it this way Look, creativity is a muscle, yeah, or I've looked at it as creativity being a muscle, and you need to work out that muscle for it to be stronger, and I think everyone's creative for it to be stronger.
Speaker 2:And I think everyone's creative. I think everyone was born with a sense of creativity. No one is not creative. Everyone has it. We're all creative in different ways. But I think that you can't expect to just be creative just because you have a natural tendency to be creative in the sense of, like, you can't expect to just pick up a camera or pick up whatever you're doing and just be immediately creating something new that no one's ever seen before. Um, because you haven't worked out that muscle yet. And so there there is a and especially especially in a very convoluted and saturated environment as photography, because there's a lot of people doing it, a lot of people who want to do it.
Speaker 1:A lot of fantastic artists doing it and a lot of people who are really good at doing it right.
Speaker 2:And so, in a way, you're kind of competing with all of these people. Hey, you're kind of competing with all of these people and I think there needs to be a better understanding that, hey, if I'm just starting out, don't put it on yourself to just expect to be a savant and going to a place and just completely changing the dynamic of what photography looks like on your first go. It's like I think, um, I think we need to ground ourselves in understanding that, hey, like, we have a lot of potential, but we're also not that special, you know. But that's also comes with that idea that I said in the beginning. It's like, hey, just don't take yourself too seriously. Like it's like, have fun with it, be, do, do what you love, um, but don't put all these expectations on yourself, especially in the very beginning, when you're just starting out to to, yeah, just change the whole dynamic of what photography looks like, cause it's it's just not going to happen. Yeah, um, but yeah, I mean like culturally and like back to the going, like experiencing, experiencing new things, and I mean I, I would, I would always consider myself to have more of an adventurous spirit than a creative spirit.
Speaker 2:First, like, I love the sense of adventure. I grew up like I love hiking, I'm an outdoors guy. Like I love hiking, I love diving, I love spearfishing, I love camping, like I love these things more than I love photography, like I love these things more than I love photography. Um, and, but they both lend. They both lend themselves very, very well, because usually the places that I'm going to to experience those things are quite beautiful, and so they lend themselves to taking photos that are quite beautiful. Um, and then, when you incorporate all the other things that I've learned through time whether it's like incorporating people into it or positions or whatever, it's like you take what is naturally already there and then you incorporate your own artistic vision into it. And then you, yeah, and that's been my style.
Speaker 2:So, man, this is a really long-winded answer to that question. But, um, but yeah, I think, I think keep your expectations low and, um, do it, do it for enjoyment. Like, enjoy what you're doing. And I guess for me, when I say enjoy what you're doing, one man's dream is another man's nightmare. For me, enjoyment is walking a week to get to a place that's really beautiful, to set up my tent, and then, wow, this is a beautiful photo. But that could be not as enjoyable for someone else. I think it's a mixture of finding what you enjoy outside of photography as well, um, and then mixing that into what you do in your art, and then the two go hand in hand quite well easy yeah um, you talked about, we talked about style quite a lot.
Speaker 1:What about voice? Is there any kind of narrative or storytelling narrative? That is a is a constant in your work. We talk we'll talk about underwater in a minute Um, something that's, that's quite powerful and surrealism. But is there, is there something bigger that you you tried and say, or do you take it more image by image, series by series, project by project?
Speaker 2:by project. Yeah, I think it's. I mean naturally, no, um, naturally I don't. It's more, image by image. I would say I don't necessarily come into things, uh, with a preconceived idea narratively, um, I do come into things with a preconceived idea as what I want the photo to look like, but I don't necessarily have a bigger picture story. I'm trying to tell through that image, I'm just trying to create an image and and I let whatever that image, um, or I I let, I let the narrative be whatever people who are looking at the image want it to be, because I don't care. Like I'm not, I'm not like, uh, I'm not, I'm not the type of person that wants people to get a specific narrative out of what I'm showing them.
Speaker 2:I think that's why art's very subjective, that's why art has value in so many different. Like one painting's a million dollars and it's just like one solid color, right, and you look at it and you're like this is worth nothing to me, but something else. Someone else can be like, wow, this is profound, and I have no idea why they think it's profound, I think it's dumb, but it's worth something to them, right? So it's like, um, so I think I think that's just art in general. I think people, people can create their own narratives, um, and I think that's a cool thing, and I don't want to tarnish that by making people see what I need them to see, especially when I don't really have anything. I'm trying to tell them, you know.
Speaker 2:So your focus is really more on the process, enjoying that, that, that process of of making photograph, and the aesthetic yeah, I try right I think it's easy to say that, yeah, yeah, obviously, um, obviously things can become stressful and not as fun and these, these kind of things. But yeah, I mean that's a goal, right um you always try and pursue that.
Speaker 1:How's the fun meter when you don't get the shot that you wanted?
Speaker 2:it's not good, it's it's redlining the other way come on man, um, no, but I mean like I think one thing, one, one thing you find is like um, I I say that, but it's usually not a big deal when I'm, because almost all of my photography like I hate being alone, like this is one of my things, like I don't like to be alone.
Speaker 2:So usually the process is I'm with friends and we're having a good time, and even if we don't get it, of course there's like a ah man, like like you, like in a lot, of, a lot of times there's things that I set up that take quite a long time of prep, quite a lot of time of preparation to get to the point when we take the photo and then it doesn't happen. It's like so obviously there there is a side of like ah, but usually through the process it's you're also spending time with friends, which is one of the most important things in my life. Is is my community, and so I mean how could I ever say time with community was a bad thing, right? So there's always silver linings and always these kinds of things. I think when it's for a job and you're getting paid for it, then it's a bit more frustrating, but if there's no one you're doing it for except for yourself, like if you have an image that you want to create and you're doing it for yourself, you're going to have plenty of other opportunities to get it. So it's not. It's not the end of the world, yeah unless you don't, unless you don't, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean like well, I mean, there's always those times like I, you do you know you do.
Speaker 1:You always have another chance. It may not be exactly the same.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Well, that's what I was going to say, like I, in different types of photography. So, for example, like a street photographer, you see one person walking down the road and that's your guy that you need to get the photo of, right Cause of their look, or whatever, whatever, and you miss it. Then it's a lot more discouraging because that opportunity is never going to come again. Um, so, of course, but for the style that I don't really do street photography as much I don't do um, I my, my preferred way of shooting is a lot more set up, um, um, and to get all of the elements fit together, um, to take one picture, um, and so for that style, it, you get more chances.
Speaker 1:I would say more often than not I get it you talked about community and I've talked about this recently as well in the people you're with on a shoot or on a project, but also the people that you are photographing yourself, who are in front of the camera or behind it, or part of the, the staff that you know, the guides and all these, even just the local population. They always seem to come or the enjoyment of their company and the interaction with them and getting to know them always seems to come above and beyond the photograph. But getting a great photo is great, but actually the real fulfillment and satisfaction, enjoyment, comes from those interactions.
Speaker 2:So I definitely feel that yeah, I mean, I mean, but that's why it's important to to like with what I was saying, other, to align with the things that you and to align the things that you enjoy personally with what you're doing, because if they're not aligned, then not getting the photo at the end is a lot more devastating. But if the things the two like for example, if I go, if I go hiking for seven days and it's rainy at the end, um, if I don't like hiking that photo would be like, it would be devastating, like I'd spent all of this time to do there, but because I enjoy hiking so much, it's like, oh, I got a great hike out of it.
Speaker 2:You what I mean. So it's like you have to, you have to align, like life isn't photography, life isn't art, like it's so much more than that, and and if, and if your whole life is just focused around that, then of course it's going to be a lot more devastating.
Speaker 1:I mean, your life's pretty devastating, probably if you're just focused on that for sure a lot of people do focus on on it, and with the advent of social media, you know a lot of photographers these days that is their daily mantra almost is to make sure I'm creating, posting, getting followers, and that becomes their life right. So there is that danger.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, there's the business aspect to it, of course, and there's the desire to grow. And's, um, I mean the desire to grow goes hand in hand with career. So you know, I mean I think that's with any career, like careers can be stressful, especially when you're starting out, or especially when there's a lull, um. So that's very natural, but all the more important, why you need to mix it in with other things that you enjoy in life.
Speaker 1:And remember, stay grounded to what you do enjoy right, and at least be aware of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Otherwise greed will take over. Why do you think people you talked about, why you do what you do? Why do you think people enjoy your stuff? Why do people follow you? Do you think people enjoy your stuff? Why did? Why do people follow you? Do you think in your, in your mind?
Speaker 2:well, it's definitely, it's definitely not for my looks, I would say I wouldn't say that good looking lad well, I never post myself, so they wouldn't know.
Speaker 2:I think I for, well, starting out, I was doing what everyone else did and I think the birth of like this travel photographer, when that first kind of happened, there was a lot of excitement around people who were doing that and my life already landed itself naturally to being kind of all over the place, and so I was already kind of in that scene before it became a thing to be in that scene or before it was something that people aspired to do or be, um, because I had always just grown up being all over the place and um, and I think because of that I grew and I and I think and originally I don't necessarily think it was only because of the photography, I think it was also because of the places that I was going to, because I was a landscape photographer and so people wanted to see cool places and things like this, and so, and I think I recognized that over time, where it was like it didn't feel like I was really doing any, contributing anything to the art world, I was contributing more to the travel, travel world, which was fine.
Speaker 2:I just didn't find much fulfillment in it. So I grew an audience from that, obviously, and then, ever since I stopped doing it, my audience actually declines every day, the last, I would say, four years. When it comes to Instagram and following, I haven't grown at all, and I was only growing when I was doing more of the travel-focused things. But the people that have stayed, I think I would assume they follow me because they enjoy my work and I think it's just as simple as that. You know, they just enjoy, they enjoy my style, they enjoy what I post. Um, I don't know, I don't ever really think of it super deeply.
Speaker 2:You know, it's interesting, I think I I, I just don't put too much thought into it, I would just, it would just be yeah, and there's some assumed like yeah yeah if you like it stay if you don't like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I I feel your pain with the. Well, it's not a pain, it's just a. It's just the way it is with followers and certainly all social media platforms, and they change. If you're talking four years, though, goodness, they've changed so much in just four years. So I mean, maybe it has something to do with what you're putting out there or the frames you were putting out out there, but I also think it's a lot to do with just the way the platforms are run right oh for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's like algorithms and all of those things um okay, let's go underwater.
Speaker 1:Um, real interest to me. I've been diving most of my life and, uh, I wish I could do more underwater photography. I I take my camera down every time I dive but, um, I can't do everything all the time, so I'm I. I mean, I love your stuff. We'll talk about your book a little bit. I know that's underwater based. Let's focus on Angelita first. So obviously I know what it is and I know what went into it. I've watched the videos. I'd like to hear it from you Tell us a story of that, how that came about. We talked about narratives earlier and storytelling. Tell us about the concept generation of that and then walk us through or swim us through the process and what it was all about.
Speaker 2:So for so, for years, um, like a lot. So, when it comes to the like, the photographers you see on instagram, a lot of us kind of started around the same time together. So, like a lot of the bigger photographers that you see right now, we were all romping around together on trips, you know, 2016, 2017, such as, uh, emmet, emmet, sparling, jordan, hammond, chelsea, yamaze, um, I mean, just like the list goes on right, just all these people and, of course, you'll find like there's clicks in all these different things. Um, but for the most part, it's a very small community, like a lot of us either know of each other or know each other. Um, and have met um, because, especially starting out, companies at that time were doing a lot of group trips, like getting all of these people from all over the place together. So it created it created the sense of like. Really everyone kind of knows each other. Um, what was the question?
Speaker 1:again, Um, tell us about Angelita, tell us about the concept. Right, right, right. That's what I was getting at.
Speaker 2:So, so, so, when, when, when we were all starting out, um, I was surrounded by a lot of people who did video and photography and, um, we would go on trips and everyone was making like I'm sure you saw at that time, especially like the travel videos, like the montage videos of people going doing stuff, and I have always been interested in video but I could, but I never felt the draw. It was very difficult for me to take video for. So, for example, like we would, we would do a group trip, everyone's taking clips here and there, and I was only taking pictures and by the end of the trip I was like, oh man, I didn't film anything like, um, because video and photography they're different, but they go hand in hand. Like you take a picture, switch over to video really quick, take a video, and I have so many friends who are just so like they don't even think about it, they just do it, and then they'll come with all of these amazing pictures and then have all of these video clips to go with all these amazing pictures, and then I come out of the trip and I just have all these amazing pictures, right, so it's like. So, it's like that dynamic of um, uh.
Speaker 2:So I was in that environment and always pressured myself to take more video, but I was never like, I just never really wanted to. And so then, so I ultimately just told myself, like I'm just not a video guy, I'm just going to, I'm just going to stick to photography and try my best in that that Avenue, um, and then over time I was, I just had more and more and more draw to it. So I was trying to figure out a way where I could do, where I could do, a video with zero experience. I'm not a videographer, I don't, I don't, I don't know how to open final cut, like I don't know how to do anything on it. I'm just not that guy. Um, but all my friends are right, so there was always that pressure, um. So finally I was like, okay, I think really the only way I can do it is if I have a shot list and I have, and I go into something and I know exactly what I'm going to shoot and I have everything written down and it's scene by scene, cause I, my brain, doesn't work in the way of taking a bunch of video clips like random ones and then putting them together at the end, because I'm a lot more story driven, which is goes against what I told you earlier with photography, but when it comes to video, I want to tell a story, um, and I never had a story to tell through random clips, uh, and so.
Speaker 2:So I I had been diving in Mexico. I went for the first time in 2020, went for a dive, went to this um dive site called Angelita, and it was just like mind blowing what? How does this place exist? Um, I mean, it's, it's a freshwater, um cave, essentially, uh, cenote, and at the bottom, at 30 meters, there's a, there's a cloud and, uh, it's a, it's hydrogen sulfide and it's what it basically is is like plant matter and trees fall into, fall into the cenote, and the pressure is so high at 30 meters that those that gas can't like escape back up, so it's just kind of stuck there as a cloud, which and it was it's just mind blowing. So we did this dive and I was like, wow, this is, this is incredible.
Speaker 2:And I left Mexico still thinking about that dive and I was like, wow, if I was ever going to do a film like that would be a really cool place to do it, because it's just so weird looking, um, and so I completely just wrote a story around that spot. I was like I'm, because I wanted the shots to be beautiful, I wanted it to look cool, right, um, so it was like a mixture of focusing on some sort of story to tell but also the environment and and and so, yeah, that was just kind of the birth of that short film and I told my friends about it. Luckily they were down, um, cause it was it was. It was a hard process, especially like trying to. Can I mean, obviously they're all friends, so they were all down, but like convincing people to spend that much amount of time and also not just time like it was not easy as far as just like, yeah, I mean, so it was just like convincing people to do all that stuff from me who's never does video, like it was just like I was like I was like, please, I think I think it'll be cool. Yeah, exactly, um, but yeah, I mean they were all super down, which I'm so grateful for. I mean it would have, it would have never happened if it wasn't wasn't for my friends who were all involved, like they did way more than I ever did.
Speaker 2:Um, and yeah, that was the birth of it, of just like wanting to make something that had a narrative behind it, that looked cool, and a lot of it was taking inspirations from all my friends who have been doing video for so long and creating these beautiful like travel videos and stuff. But I just wasn't, I just couldn't, because it, my, my brain didn't work that way, and so so it was inspired by that and led, and now, um, a lot of the work that I do is actually a lot more directorial. So, um, really, um, so you know, I I get hired a bit, quite a bit, for directing, like directing things, uh, for commercials. Uh, uh, I did a music video, things like that, um, which is cool, cause it was. It's totally. It went from not any video experience at all to still not any?
Speaker 2:Yeah, still not any, just jump video yeah.
Speaker 2:I still can't open final cut, you know, but that's what? But this, this is one thing that I really love video for it's um, photography is very solo, in the sense of the work itself. At the end, of course, you have your model and, and if you're shooting with a model or a person, so it's you have that dynamic, but at the end it's still your work at the end, um, but with video and this is something that I found doing, angelita, uh, it was color grading. Okay, let's, who have my friends really good at color grading? Find, find them who can edit, uh, find my friend do this. I had my friend, you know, compose the music for it, like he's, he's a composer, um, uh, an actor, you know, like all of these things. So it's like bringing in all my friends with all these different capabilities and strong suits and and it kind of becomes a group effort and so music was composed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I thought that's one of the best. Yeah, he did so.
Speaker 2:His name's matt morgan. Um, he, he. The way he made it was. I sent him the video and he played the piano over it, and that's how he, that's how he came up with the score for it yeah, no, not artless. No, he, he did it all himself and he's incredible um so yeah, the team all coming together.
Speaker 2:The team aspect of it was just so cool, because I'm just such a community guy and I love my friends and I want to be around my friends, and so it created this perfect environment for all of us to come together and just and like. I remember that like of course, there was stressors filming it, obviously, um, naturally, but at the end of it it was just such a fun 10 days. It was 10 days. It was such a fun 10 days because we were all just hanging out with each other and you film I mean, for that video we could only film in the morning, so we spent like two hours in the morning getting ready, doing the filming, and then we'd have the rest of the day.
Speaker 1:And you could only film for about 15 minutes of that depth yeah, yeah, yeah and that's all that.
Speaker 2:We got 15 minutes of filming a day, yeah, but it's a two-hour process of getting everything ready, whatever, whatever, um but, at the bottom. At the bottom, we had 15 minutes so we we only could shoot like max three clips a day, um, but yeah, I mean, it's just like I, I just loved, I just loved that I love the whole process. And and now, um, I, yeah, I love doing video. I I've made, I've made more videos, I just haven't posted them um, I, I I've made like seven now I think wow um why haven't you posted them Like legalities?
Speaker 2:People just haven't been released yet. I can't do it on my own. There's one that I'm super stoked about. It's also an underwater one. It's shot completely upside down and I think it's so cool, but I can't release it.
Speaker 1:You shot it upside down or you flipped it upside down. I flipped it upside down, so the whole thing's upside down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I, you flipped it upside down, I flipped it upside down, so the whole thing's upside down. Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, but I can't release it because, uh, because I was, I was hired to do it and they, they haven't okay, that was three years ago, right?
Speaker 1:so it's like angelita was purely personal so.
Speaker 2:So I think, at the end of the day, what I'm trying to get to is, um, just like self-funding more of these things, because what I've realized is, when I'm doing it for other people and companies, I really enjoy it Because, luckily, they've given me the freedom to creatively pursue the things that I want to pursue. But it's not mine at the end, which I don't need it, in an ego sense, to be mine, I just want to share it, and I've found that there's a lot of reasons that I can't from the ones that I've been doing. So I want to self-fund more, but they become quite expensive. Well, they are quite expensive, especially when you have a lot of people involved.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, so it's like a slow process of figuring out, like, I've been working on a feature length movie. I would love to do a feature length movie with my friends, right, and like, so I've been working on that. I want to do, like, a horror film. I just think that would be so much fun, and so, yeah, I've been working on a script for that. But, like, these are things that I enjoy and so, like, I'll put time into in between jobs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah let's just just um, stay on Angelita a little bit, because I want to express to the audience exactly you know how difficult it was to to make this video a how amazing it came out. But, um, first of all, what is the story of Angelita? For those that haven't seen it yet, I will, I'll link the description and people need to go watch it. But tell us the story and then tell us exactly. You know the 10-day process of getting that video.
Speaker 2:I think the story well like for me because there's a story personally for me when I was writing it, when I was just like, oh, this could be. So I like um, it's the right word. I like allegories, and so with most of the video stuff I do I have a personal allegory within the video that isn't very obvious. So for me, and and angelita, was just like addiction. That was the, that was the premise for me, um, of, uh, someone, someone who becomes addicted and keeps being drawn back by whatever it is that they were addicted by, and eventually losing themselves in it Because at the very end they jump in together into the unknown. So it's like a darker theme, but I didn't tell anyone that and most people would see it as like a love story or something like this.
Speaker 1:And which is great. You know whatever you want it to be, yeah, yeah, whatever you want it to be um, but for me that's what it was.
Speaker 2:It was just like a, like a, a short story about addiction and how, how easy it is to lose yourself in it.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, that's something that's close to home. Obviously have you experienced addiction or?
Speaker 2:not, I mean in a way like, uh, like nicotine, for example. I, I, that's something I've struggled with throughout my life, um, um, but not in like, tremendously horrible ways of addiction. I can, I, I can definitely relate to addiction, um, with with my own personal struggles with nicotine, for example, um and so um it. But again, like that's why I say, like, when you asked me earlier, do, does a lot of what you do correlate to emotions that you're feeling? And it's like not necessarily. And it's like not necessarily. It's just stuff that I'm interested in and like how, how it affects people and how. So it's like, even like it might not be something that I'm struggling with personally, but it's something that I see and something that I find very interesting. So I'll, um, I'll try and write about it or, um, sympathize with it I think it.
Speaker 1:With addiction, every everyone suffers with it.
Speaker 2:To some extent right for sure sugar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I have an addictive personality yeah, same thing easy. Yeah, it's a daily battle yeah, yeah, willpower yeah, and then. So the the process. We'll keep it short, but the process was and correct me if I'm wrong we've got five days of free dive training and then a test dive the next day, and then it's a matter of how many dives to get the shots. After that, five, seven days of actual shooting those we shot the whole time.
Speaker 2:But we, but we um.
Speaker 2:We shot in three locations so right, okay, so okay, the um, the, the angelita dive, that one was we had 15 minutes each day, so that was five days just diving there or no more than that was like seven days just diving there and to get those shots.
Speaker 2:And then, um, and then there was another sonote that we shot in with this like incredible light beam, that one you could shoot in for I think it was like two or three hours because we weren't as deep, um, and I I was able to shoot it free diving, so I didn't need to like we were all able to free dive it, um, and it was only like 15 meters, right. So it's like we were able to get those shots kind of throughout the day and there wasn't like a nitrogen buildup or anything like that. That one was completely dependent on the sun because for the light beam, so as long as the sun was in the sky in that area we were able to shoot, and I think we did that one for two days, um. And then there was one other one that was like a really shallow sonote, um, that we did like there was, I think there was a scene where she kind of comes up towards the surface and he's like and that was, um, that was, yeah, that was just in another shallower one.
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Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, of course.
Speaker 1:And then I rewatched it in preparation for this, and I think I saw one of the comments on YouTube about hundreds of comments and one of the comments was wow, I get to watch this for free. Which is you forget, right, in this world of abundance, we have YouTube, all the social media platforms, all the news platforms, most podcasts. Well, actually that's not that true, but half podcasts are paywall, half free. There's so much free content out there and then when we're asked to pay three or four bucks a month, it's like what, what you know? Um, do you, you know, how do you, how do you approach that? It was obviously a conscious decision put on youtube, but is that something that's different, moving forward in terms of, you know, want to get my stuff out there for people to watch without worrying about them paying for it, or it's time I get rewarded for this type of stuff?
Speaker 2:I, uh, for me personally, I'm not a businessman, like, I'm very, very, very bad at business. Um, uh, I will. I think I will always be a starving artist. Um, I've just, I've just never.
Speaker 2:It never really computes with me and and, and it would be easy for me to say like, oh, I don't care about money and these things, but it's like that's not true. I just don't have a good business mind, don't care about money and these things, but it's like that's not true. I just don't have a good business mind. And so when people like, oh, like, why didn't you monetize that? Or why don't you sell this, I'm like I, either the answer is I'm lazy, or, um, I, I don't know how to do it and I'm lazy, right, so, um, so it's like, yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a possibility.
Speaker 2:I'm not against these things with monetization of things, because I would love to be able to support myself through those things. I'm just not good at it. And so my natural instinct always is not oh, how can I make money out of this? And again, not because I don't care about money, but because that's doesn't. That's not how my brain works, that's not how. That's not my first thought ever. My first thought always is excitement, like oh, I just did this thing, like everyone, please, please, watch it please the experience, the process and then the final product, essentially um and and I and like I guess there is a subconscious hope that money just comes out of it, out of thin air right, I know that feeling.
Speaker 1:I'll put this out there and then someone would give me money.
Speaker 2:Yeah um, so yeah, I mean, that's just like that's always man, and I know from a business aspect that's a horrible way of doing things because uh, yeah, you don't really grow monetarily from doing it that way. Um, and I'm very aware of that, uh, I'm just not good at it.
Speaker 1:It's constant balance, isn't it? It's constant, I guess, pendulum swinging back and forth to me and well, I need to pay the bills and therefore I might, might, compromise some of my artistic integrity because I've got to make some sacrifices.
Speaker 2:I've got to go and get some money.
Speaker 1:And then on the other side it's like well, I can only really stay true to my art and my vision by not worrying about the money side of it. Yeah, there's no win-win.
Speaker 2:It's such a fine line because it's like there is that side.
Speaker 2:But then they're also like, you know, eventually when you start having thoughts of having a family or you know these things, it's like I can skate by on my own and I have for years, and now that I'm getting older, it's like, oh okay, you know the thoughts of family, the thoughts of having children and these kind of.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh, okay, you know the thoughts of family, the thoughts of having children and the and these kinds of things. It's like, um, well, I can't really I, I, I couldn't do that with what I'm doing now, and so I have to, I have to, and it's weird to think about people that don't exist yet as your motivator for doing things. But I find myself in that position a lot now where it's like trying to be better at business for that, so that ultimately I can have stability when those things inevitably come around in my life, because I'm not ready for it right now financially, um, and I don't want to always say I'm not ready for it. You know, I want to be ready for it and and I and it, and it gets to that point where it's like, okay, like we need to. You need to figure this out.
Speaker 1:I think it's almost a limiting belief as well, a lot of us have with ourselves. And now you talk about creativity. If you believe, everyone's got an element of creativity ingrained in them, it's just a matter of finding that potential. Same with general business skills. Right, there's no one that can't do it. It's certainly not someone who's of decent intellect and traveled the world and met so many people, and it's just maybe trying to tap into that a little bit more. Or or, in my own experience and I I laugh when you said this because I'm a bit lazy as well when it comes to that kind of thing, because I don't really want to do that type of thing right, some people love it. Some people love going to get deals and money and making the next buck or making the next deal, and I I love getting the deal.
Speaker 2:You know the process of it though.
Speaker 1:Nah man, yeah oh yeah, it's a. It's a constant battle. Speaking of deals um, was angelita the kind of birth of your book idea. How did do they relate? Tell us about the book um, I kind of uh.
Speaker 2:So when I did that, I think it's like two separate sides of wants for me, like as far as career goes. So it was like when I did the film, I was like I really want to get into film, I want to, I want to uh, I've never done it before, I want to try something new, I want to see if I can do it. And then I did it and I was like, wow, I really enjoyed doing that, um, and I would like to do this more. And so that was that. And then, and then also because I had such a deep appreciation for the cenotes that I was diving in and I was just like some of my favorite pictures I've taken here, and so then I was so then the same kind of thing I was telling you earlier OK, so I have all of these images that I've been taking. At that point it was like over a year, all of these images that I've been taking. At that point it was like over a year. And then, and then I was like you know, this would be a great opportunity to maybe make a book, because I've always thought about making a book, but I've never really found a way to make a book, where it made sense to make a book in the sense of I have pictures, but from just kind of all over over the place and it's just kind of scattered, and and even though I have a very scattered brain, I like if I'm making something to make sense. So to me it wouldn't make sense to have a book with just like random photos that I've taken. Um, at least at this point in my life. Maybe one day it's like Josiah Gordon's favorite photographs book, right, like you can do that, but I don't think I'm at a point where I could. I would want to do that and I and so I wanted to really like focus in on something to create a book, but I never really found the time or something that I wanted to do it for.
Speaker 2:And then, when I was in, after I had finished the video project, I was like, oh, like, I have so many pictures of the cenotes, I should just keep doing this and I can make a book out of it easy. Um, and then that ended up being a four-year process, um, and I ended up all the pictures that I had, I scrapped all of them and redid all of them because, um, I I've, I found it's not a narrative, but a style that I wanted to portray for the book. Um, and the photos that I had taken earlier didn't quite fit that style and so I just reshot them. This, this basically the same pictures, but just in the photos that I had taken earlier didn't quite fit that style and so I just reshot them Basically the same pictures, but just in the style that I wanted. And, yeah, that took four years. Wow, how many visits Over 20.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, to Mexico. Yeah, with the same people, with Chelsea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, chelsea was there for some. One of my really good friends, fernanda morales, she's. She's there in mexico. Amazing, amazing model um esther abad. Amazing model um yeah, so I used a lot of the a lot of the same people, um, and that's one thing that's really special to me is, um, all of the people that are in the book are close friends of mine, and and uh, yeah, it's like a collaborative effort, right yeah, that's nice, we, we.
Speaker 2:I'm so grateful for them taking so much time, like whenever I came down just like, yeah, let's go do it like it's it's. So. It's so nice to have friends like that who are supportive of you and, um, believe, believe in you to do and give, and because time is your most valuable thing, right so for people to give you time for something that you personally have an artistic vision about it means a lot, and so that's been looking back, the biggest gift I've received in all of this is people's people's trust in time.
Speaker 1:Do you really need to get that book published?
Speaker 2:yeah, man, yeah, well, this that goes back to I'm not a big good business guy, right? So it's like the reason it's taken. So I've, I've finished it for about a year and a half now and it's just kind of been sitting in limbo. Part of it is just like I'm, I'm, I'm very particular, so I want it to look the best possible and and, but I'm not, I'm not as good at finding the right people to do it, um, but luckily, in the last few months I've I've found a project manager that has been really helping me with that stuff and we're hoping to have it released by the end of this year. But I just, for me, it's very important that the quality is like perfect and everything's perfect in it, because I've spent so so long on it and I just don't want to release something that's half-assed and I want it to be um, I want it to be the best thing like possible for what it is.
Speaker 2:that's, that's why it's taken me so long, cause I just want it to be that. Um, so yeah, that's the process of it right now.
Speaker 1:Let's look ahead as we start to wrap up and we can get you on your way. But when we think about where you pose and how you put your output into the world and we talked about you know you've got multiple films and videos in the pipeline. Where they will be released, I guess we'll find out. But where do you find comfort in putting your work out there in the audience? Where's your go-to? Is it such a thing as Instagram, or are you more comfortable keeping your work for you and your friends in a more private setting? Is that important to you? Getting your work out there? Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think there is I mean from an egotistical standpoint there's definitely affirmation that comes from it. It never not feels good for someone to tell you that like, wow, I love this, right. I think ultimately I just love photography and I love, I love creating things and of course I want to show people the things that I create. And and I think ultimately just comes down to that, I don't necessarily feel I don't necessarily create things and feel the need to keep it to myself.
Speaker 2:If social media disappeared tomorrow what would you do with your, your work? Where would you? I don't know, I don't know. I, I, I think I think I would continue doing what I do because I love it. Yeah, you'd still do it, I'd still do it.
Speaker 2:Um, as far as sharing it, I don't know. I just just, I just know right now where it is, I'm able to share it in the way that I do. Um, if, if the um, if I lost the ability to share it in the way that I do right now, um, I would probably look into other outlets, like more books or more more physical, and that's and that's ultimately what I'm trying to get into. More is more physical physical products, prints, prints and um and books, like I, depending on how well this book does. What I'd love is, if this book does well to, to be able to use that money to finance other book projects. Um, and just because, because ultimately I think that's what I would love the most is just is just really hyper-focusing on projects for a few years at a time, releasing a book and moving on to the next one.
Speaker 2:I think to me that would be the ultimate dream. But of course it costs a lot to do that and at the moment I don't have the financial freedom to fully do that. And so if that was a possibility through the success of this book and it shows that it's a possibility then I would definitely do something along those lines.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of charlatans out there in terms of publishers as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well that's why I want to self-publish, so I'm self-publishing, oh okay, okay, yeah, that is a big project.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I wish you the best of luck. I look forward to getting a free copy. Yeah, for sure, for sure. What is the next generation of photographers look like? If there's anything you can impart on the next generation of photographers creators in today's algorithmic, ai driven world, is there anything that comes to your mind that, in terms of advice and things that you've learned along the way, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I think there's a lot. I think, um, I think I touched on it earlier but don't expect fortune right away and don't A lot of people. I've noticed it in the creative industry, particularly in any kind of art. Really, it's just because you've created something doesn't mean it's good. It might be good for you personally, which is great, but it doesn't mean other people are going to think it's good and that's okay. But you have to recognize that to be great at something, you have to give your time to it to become great. And if you don't give time to it, you're not going to be great, you're not going to stand amongst the artists of our generation. If you've just started out, um, it's just not going to happen. Like if and and? How do you? How do you become one of the greats? You just give it time, you. I mean, what do they say? 10 000 hours?
Speaker 1:yeah, right, um about 10 years.
Speaker 2:If you did it right. And it's like with so many people in the, in the artistic realm, how can you that are really, really good, how can you expect, why put that pressure on yourself to be someone who stands among the best of our, our time, when you've only been doing it for a year or two years? And for me, the advice would be if it's something you love, fortune will come. It just comes in time, because if you're good at what you do and I don't necessarily mean fortune in the millions, right, but enough to live. Billions, yeah, billions, billions and billions.
Speaker 1:Of pesos.
Speaker 2:But I do think that when it comes to art, you have to love it and it's going to take time, and it's going to take time. And it's going to take time, um, especially if you're not someone who's business minded, like me. It's going to take a long time to get to the place. One where, um, other people in mass like your work or enjoy your work, and two, where you enjoy your work. And I think that's the most important one, because I mean, for me personally, I've been doing photography on and off for 15 years or so, I would say. I didn't really start making money from photography until, like maybe five years ago, to where it was actually. I was able to live off of it. So I mean, it took me a long time to get to the place where it was something that I could just pursue this and it didn't happen very easily.
Speaker 2:But again, that's coming from someone who's not super business-minded, so a lot of other people could find avenues to whatever, but from a success standpoint to you know whatever, um, but from a success standpoint, it's like give yourself, give yourself time, like it takes a lot of time and if you want to be good at something and this is with anything in life, you need to do it. You're not just naturally, you're not just naturally going to become a savant. You can become a savant, but you need time to do it. And if you don't give yourself that time, you're just not going to. And so I guess, in the harshest term possible, just get better, right, yeah, it's like just be better, but the only way you can do that is by working on it, and don't bring yourself down for not being where you want to be, but just get better right Be consistent and patient and patient with consistency right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Just day in, day out, just work the grind. Do you see that, though Interesting? You said that. I totally agree with you, but do you see that as being a common thread through people who are starting, or do you see why? Do you say that? Is it just from purely personal experience? Or do you see that with? Do you say that's just from purely?
Speaker 2:personal experience or do you see that with other people? I just noticed a lot of people, especially in the social realm, where, I mean, I've seen this happen quite a lot, where, um, algorithm, algorithmically, uh we have no control over how social media cooperates with us, and I've seen people who just randomly had a photo go viral, yeah, and they. And then in that moment they decide, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be a photographer. And then the algorithm is pushing people their way and they're getting a lot of engagement and then all of a sudden, that engagement's gone, um, and then they've quit everything to pursue this thing that they weren't very good at. They had a knack for it.
Speaker 1:You might be good at it.
Speaker 2:A natural eye for it, but they weren't professional for lack of better terms. And now that they've kind of given up everything else to follow this thing and they're stuck in a tough place because the algorithm isn't treating them the same way that it was before and and I've seen a lot of people have that happen to them um, and so it's just like a fair if, if, if, um, lebron james didn't do the amount of training that he done, that he has done, I mean, and and I don't know if, if you're familiar with his regime, I mean it is crazy, like the amount of time, even to this day, that he puts into working out training and that he has done for the past 30 years to be considered now one of the greatest basketball players who has ever lived.
Speaker 2:He's not naturally the greatest basketball player. If he didn't train the amount he trained, he would have just been playing streetball and he might have been naturally good at it. He probably would have been, but not NBA level good at it if he didn't do the amount of training he did. And so there is a reason he is successful as he is and there is a reason he's one of the greatest of all time because he put time and effort into training those muscles to do what they need to do. And it's the same with any career. And it doesn't mean that you're going to be LeBron James if you put as much time into it as LeBron James did, because there's a lot of other basketball players that did. He's just who he is. But don't expect to get into the NBA if you're not training for it and you might not even get in at the end of it.
Speaker 1:Same with I mean in the same basketball thread same with Michael Jordan, another one of the came. But he did have talent. He did have pure raw talent. But how many people you never heard of had the raw talent but didn't put in the work? We don't hear about that.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the point right.
Speaker 2:Where it's like he was the first one on the court and the last one look, with photography, I mean, let's be real, like anyone can pick up a camera and push a button and point it, or point it at something beautiful, and push a button and it's a good photograph. Anybody can take a good photograph. That's not, it's not rocket science. Um, it's very easy to do. All you need to learn is like three buttons, like exposure, the triangle, right, um, and anyone with a 50 iq can do that. So, um, we live, or? Or. The photography realm is a very easy one to get into, because all you need to do is buy a camera very, very easy to get it. That's why there's so many people that do it, because it's very easy to get into.
Speaker 2:And when you become a photographer, you are competing with all of these other people for jobs in a realm that's very easy to get into. Um, and so what? What sets you apart? Um, why, why would a company hire you? I think that's a good question to ask. Ask yourself. It's like why would a company hire you? This? There is, you know, 10,000 photographers in your region. Why is the company going to pick you? Um, and I, and I think that's an important question to ask and it's and, and. You need to create reasons why and most of those reasons are going to be with, with in your own skill set and ability to create something that the company wants um, and do you have it?
Speaker 2:Um, when you're competing with all these other people, do you have it more than them? And so it's like that's the, that's the thing, right? Um, um, and and, and. These and these aren't. These things aren't meant to be said to put yourself down. It's meant to inspire you to do better. It's meant to inspire you to become great and be able to have an answer to that question. And if you don't feel like you have an answer for it yet, it's just you haven't spent enough time doing it. Because you will Like that answer will come there. You will. Once you become confident in what you do, you will have a reason for the company to hire you, but it takes time.
Speaker 1:Was there a moment in your journey that you felt, okay, maybe I've got this now, or maybe I've reached a different level of confidence in being able to deliver what I wanted to do? Yeah, absolutely, I think.
Speaker 2:I would say it was four or five years ago when I really found myself in a style that I liked and that I was consistently able to produce at a higher level. And once I kind of fell into that, I really became more. I stopped comparing myself, I stopped being jealous of people around me, or even friends, who were succeeding and I wasn't, and I really came yeah, I just I came to a more confident place of this is what I can do. I know I can do this, and I say this in a very non-egotistical way, but it's like I know I can do this better than the other person. I know I know it, um, just hire me like I know I can do that, and so so, so a lot of that is is just.
Speaker 2:But that confidence only comes from time, um, and time spent doing it and understanding, because because that's that's the thing about creativity as well, is it requires understanding. Creativity and understanding only comes through experience. So you have to understand the possibilities of what you can do and then, when you understand those possibilities, the creativity flows, because you can really think outside of the box and have an understanding of what you're able to do in those out of the box things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that comes through experience of failing more than anything else. Right, make them, and that only comes with doing and that only comes with time. So you know, all comes down. I think of those moments where maybe not so much oh, I've got this, but more you look back and go fuck, I really didn't have it, but like I was really bad before, when I thought I was really good yeah, exactly. And then you worry, maybe I'm in.
Speaker 2:I'm still in that, yeah, for sure for sure, but I think it speaks for and that's that's one really cool thing about having something like Instagram or or any sort of platform where you, you, um, put your work out there, where you just it's a scroll of the finger of where you were a year ago, two years ago, and you can, and I I look at it more as improvement of like, wow, like I can't believe this is, this is how I edited colors, or you know what I mean, and you'll look at that, and then you'll find a lot more confidence in the stuff that you're doing now, because you can see so much growth in just over and I and I still find that today like, um, like, because I love experimenting and I love experimental photography I can, I can look at something that I tried a year ago versus how I do it now and how it comes so fluidly, and be like, wow, like, that's a big difference, um, and so I mean that's just a natural thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think you're an incredible artist. Please keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Keep sharing it with us.
Speaker 1:I look forward to, uh, seeing the book and and I highly encourage anyone watching to go and obviously see your stuff, but watch your short films and, yeah, I'd look forward to seeing the next few. Thanks so much for joining. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, it's been great Cheers. Thanks for the coffee. You're welcome, ha ha.
