The MOOD Podcast

Corporate Chains to Creative Gains: Lilia and Kai, E068

• Matt Jacob

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Is it possible to leave everything behind and build a life that revolves around creativity and adventure?

Lilia Siemens and Kai Schiffers, also known as 'Lilia and Kai', are a talented photography and filmmaking couple who embarked on an incredible journey in 2019. Leaving their corporate lives in Germany, they bought their first camera and set off on a global adventure with no set return date. Through years of ‘learning by doing,’ they evolved from travel vloggers into respected visual artists, now known for their ethereal, emotionally charged style that captivates audiences.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • How travel and minimalism transformed their artistic vision and approach to life.
  • The challenges of content creation with Kai’s genetic tremor, and the solutions they found to keep producing quality work.
  • Balancing social media pressures with authenticity, and how they navigate the digital space while staying true to their vision.
  • The evolution of their unique visual style and the creative process behind their atmospheric visuals.
  • Client relationships and creative freedom, including their approach to pitching and collaborating with brands.


Find Lilia and Kai's work on their channels:
Website: www.liliandkai.com
Instagram: @liliandkai
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Matt:

Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation one frame at a time. I'm your host, Matt Jacob, and thank you for joining me in today's conversation and our guests are Lillia Siemens and Kai Schiffers, mostly known as just Lillia and Kai, and they're a talented filmmaking photographer couple whose journey began with a shared love for travel and storytelling. Their path took a turn in 2019 when they gave up the corporate life and purchased their first camera just before embarking on a world trip with no set return date. Without prior experience in photography or filmmaking, they really embraced the challenge of learning by doing, and have since evolved from travel vloggers to really respected visual artists, building an authentic following across various platforms along the way.

Matt:

In this conversation, we explore the nuances of their creative journey, including how travel has shaped their artistic vision and the challenges they've faced, both personally especially in Kai's case and professionally. We discuss how they balance the pressures of social media, the impact of technology on their case, and professionally, we discuss how they balance the pressures of social media, the impact of technology on their work and the complexities of maintaining authenticity in commercial collaborations. They also share insights into the mental and emotional aspects of content creation, offering valuable advice on staying grounded while navigating the fast-paced world of photography and filmmaking. So now I bring you Lilia and Kai. Enjoy Lilia, Kai. Welcome to the Mood Podcast.

Lilia:

Thank you so much for having us.

Matt:

Yeah, thanks for coming. I appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to join us as a couple, a power couple. Finally, we made it happen. You guys are so busy. Tell us a little bit about, I guess, who you are, but more as your journey to where we are now in terms of Bali.

Lilia:

Yes, yeah, we are both from germany. Um, we, kai is coming from near cologne and I'm two hours away from that in a little town, nobody knows. But then kai moved to my town for his job and that's where we met and we always had the passion for traveling. And then we yeah, kai already did a few travels to Thailand, new York and I'm just in Europe. And so we started like, yeah, traveling together to Thailand and, yeah, the possible to travel the world and, yeah, see like as much as we would love to.

Lilia:

And so we, yeah, started watching a lot of youtube vlogs of other travelers and, yes, saw what is possible. Actually, if you travel on a low budget, you can see like a lot of the world. And so we saved up a lot of money and set a date when we want to quit our jobs and start traveling the world, just like an open-end travel. And then we never had a camera in hand until this date. So we thought, okay, if we start traveling, we want to document it in any way. So we bought a sony a sorry we bought a a7.

Kai:

Oh, sorry, no, you got me, no, it was the camera. Uh, 6500 from sony, um, and on this. So we bought the camera. And then we thought, okay, we have to explore a little bit how camera works. So went on a trip to paris and, yeah, funny story went to paris, did everything, vlogging with microphone, all the stuff and didn't have a clue what we are doing. But we tried it and once we came back to germany, I was just wanted to get in front of the laptop to edit everything and then I recognized, oh, it's pretty shaky because of my yeah, I've had three more, so shaky hands, um, yeah, and then we just recognized, okay, we can't do what we actually wanted to do go on travels and um, film everything and do this kind of vlogs. So we decided, okay, three weeks before the big trip is coming, we decided to do a gear switch and change from Sony to Panasonic, just because of the image stabilization.

Matt:

Yeah, so tell us a little bit more about that and your tremor and how that's kind of affected. Going into this line of work, yeah.

Kai:

So it was really hard, to be honest, because it was just like, okay, how can I get a stable image while traveling? So, in the first place, what okay, I don't want to travel with a gimbal was extra weight and even, like I said, I didn't have a clue about anything in this kind of topic videography and photography so we just said, okay, we are going to switch to panasonic. Amazing, uh, in body stabilization, it worked pretty out pretty good. Um, at that point I think it was the g9. Yeah, panasonic they got it?

Matt:

yeah, a little it was just like.

Kai:

It's similar to the GH5 because the G9 got an update, so it was nearly the same camera, but we didn't do anything in kind of color grading stuff like that. It was just straight out of camera putting it together and trying to enjoy our vlogs, but it's. But it handled the trimmer pretty good. It's like it was in all kind of specific areas a problem. For example, it was still now or also in this kind of nowadays no, sorry, at this point it also was complicated for me, for example, to do light, low light photography.

Kai:

I know you can use a tripod and everything, but, for example, handheld taking pictures of lilia in the environment, that's not that good in light because it was just like I need a high shutter. So still today, I shoot everything in 400, 600 to shutter. Um, in some environments it's just a problem still today. Uh, I can always bump up the easel, but in this kind of yeah, you always have this noise, not the original 100 shutter feeling. Um, yeah, but like we said, while traveling everything, we didn't want to travel with a gimbal and it was pretty annoying, but we figured it out and after a few years I we bought a gimbal because it's just like now we're doing everything with a gimbal, and even photo, not photos, you just know yeah, so it's still pumping up the shutter for the photos, but kind of because we also making more film, this is more.

Kai:

I would say 80% of our work is film, as in video. Yeah, film video. Yeah, we use everything. Every shot is a gimbal shot. It's just like I can't film handheld.

Matt:

And is that something you've had all your life? Is it genetic or was that something you picked up in terms of the tremor?

Kai:

No, it was genetic. It's just my dad had it, his dad has it, so it's just like a nice thing that the parents gave to you.

Matt:

There you go, good luck, good luck, enjoy. Don't be a videographer.

Kai:

Don't do this, but I think we handled it pretty, pretty good. It's just like yeah, do you have to find a way? It's always a solution for everything. It's just like how to handle it. And our case is just like if we have really to film or we really want to get a handheld shot, it's just like okay, I give lilia the camera, so in this point she's doing it, handheld um yeah, so I'm interested.

Matt:

Like you, you do everything together. You know this is the brand. Is Lilia and Kai, right? So even learning? Did you have one camera and you kind of taught yourselves? You know you shared it and then one would go in front of camera and one would go back. How was that learning process with one camera, two people?

Lilia:

Yeah, we had one camera and then when we started vlogging, it was like with the Panasonic, it was okay to hold the camera, even for Kai, and walk and talk to it, and then we were like both filming. So sometimes we set up the tripod because we both wanted to be in front of the camera and then I was filming him, he was filming me, but it was, yeah, it was like simple, but still we tried then to get this aesthetic into the vlog and, um, yeah, so it was both of us actually, I think mostly kai, but it was, yeah, sometimes he was in front and then I was like doing the, the focus, all the settings and yeah, yeah, and also, I think, the main time I was behind the camera, so it was more practice for me at this time.

Kai:

But when we did this switch, for example, to Sony, now we have two cameras, so it's also possible now for us to get both angles, both shots. Yeah, but over the time it's complicated because learning by doing is called learning by doing. It's just like you just learn the real things while you're doing it, and at this point it was me more often behind the camera, and lilia was, at this point, more like this kind of model um, but nowadays it's just like liia is getting more and more and more behind the camera. It's also a thing that we are working on right now. It's just like, for example, our last Bali film um was shot by both of us, so it was just like a nice team project. Yeah.

Lilia:

Yeah.

Matt:

And I should say up to this point, I'm a huge fan of your work.

Lilia:

There's a reason you're on the podcast, right it's.

Matt:

You know I'm not only interested in how you you got to this stage and what your plans are in the future and we're going to get all onto that, but I just wanted to make that clear. I think your work is absolutely breathtaking, so congrats on that. I'm interested into how you've evolved to that.

Kai:

But going back a little bit more, especially with you, kai, your role, corporate role that you used to have before you started photography, was head of merchandising or merchandising fashion, some tell us a little bit yeah, so I worked in the fashion company and the position was called head of visual merchandising um, so all the displays and the company and everything was planned by me, and also how the in-store point of sale and stuff like this has to look on the point, planning the year for the displays and all the mannequins, stuff like this. So this was the main part of my job also shooting collections but at this point I had a yeah, just an external team that I hired to to make the photos, because I didn't have a clue about cameras. It's just like I know how I wanted to let the display look like and the new collection, everything, how it's presented, but I didn't have a clue about cameras.

Matt:

Yeah, so that was basically what I was doing before um, but you had it, so that I mean there's a bit of context there in terms of you had a visual, you had a visual background. Yeah, you've had a creative background.

Kai:

Yeah, I had a creative background, always interested in creative things, yeah, but never did something with camera. But I think it helped a lot for this kind of job that we're doing now. So kind of this visual eye, this of, okay, this could be look good if we capture it, like this stuff, like this, so which colors fit together? Uh, how is the angle? Or something looks good, something doesn't look good. Sometimes you just have this kind of feeling if you look on a display so on, uh, it's not, it's not the right angle, something is missing, there is something still wrong, and sometimes I think this is the good, maybe the thing that I have. So Lilia is always telling me I have a good visual eye.

Lilia:

Yeah, Well, I mean one of you or both of you have great eyes, yeah but I'm learning a lot from him, like the whole journey, because, yeah, when we travel together he's showing me the things maybe I wouldn't see without him and so I'm learning. So I think over time you can develop that eye to see things like maybe the other people are not noticing.

Matt:

So yeah, it's funny when people say, oh, you've got a good eye. You know, it's almost like creativity. I was talking with a friend about this the other day. It's not something that we're. Some people are privileged to have it innately right. They might have a good eye, but that's built up over years of in the subconscious and environmental and genetics everything you can still train that eye Like if you're around. That's why Bali is amazing, because you're just surrounded by incredible creative people and you look at them. Oh yeah, I didn't see it that way before.

Matt:

And then you, the more you do that, the more you practice, the more you do, the more you fail, the more you learn Right and you can see you can. These things are very, very tricky, but your move from essentially corporate to creative is is always a fascinating story for every for, for anyone. But but in your case, there was something that stood out to me. One of the quotes, I think, was um buying things with money, you don't have to impress. Buying things with money, you don't have to impress people, you don't know yeah, that's very powerful.

Kai:

That's. I think the first time I went to the fashion company was just like I want to when you're young. It's just I want to look good and have a nice lifestyle and enjoy this kind of lifestyle. But somehow I got deeper and deeper in this kind of company. That is one quote that standed out for me the most, because it's more like so, when people see you, they in this kind of business judge you without knowing you just because of what you're wearing, how you look like, just really really has this. It's really not nice niche or I don't know. It didn't fit to me anymore. So it was just like I was spending so much money on clothes. Really, yeah, I in the beginning I had all kind of brands, expensive ones, everything.

Kai:

We've all been there, yeah, but really, really crazy, when we moved together, I had I don't know 80 pairs of shoes, what? 20 jackets.

Matt:

That was really, really deep 80 pairs of shoes.

Kai:

Depends also. My mom owns a shoe company, so that comes from there maybe.

Matt:

My wife is like.

Kai:

Yeah, I see it. Yeah, but I was spending all this kind of money on things Just impress people, I don't know.

Matt:

It was just like or try and fill something that there's a void inside of you somewhere, absolutely it was just like.

Kai:

And then we both met and I just saw this kind of different world she was not really into this kind of fashion and brands.

Kai:

She really don't care still today. Good for me, um. But it was just like, oh, there is something different. And then was just like we met, we dated it, and so we are talking about things. And then travel and got bigger and bigger and bigger. And you think to yourself why am I spending so many money on things you don't really care about? Nobody cares if the jacket is from Canada, goose or Boulders or stuff like this. It's just a brand, you know. And then it was just like okay, I don't want this anymore. And that was the point that I think we've been together for one and a half year one and a half year, just okay.

Kai:

I need to get out of this kind of yeah, environment, environment and surroundings and everything, and I just said I want to see the world and that's.

Lilia:

This is kind of point where everything started, what lilia said about this kind of traveling and yeah, and I think it's even the way we thought about okay, how can we travel, how much money can we save if you don't spend money on like?

Lilia:

yeah, expensive clothes and we were like shocked on how much money you can save in a month, like if you really take care of, okay, what is really important for us in a month. So how much money do we want to spend on I don't know go for dinner or cook by ourselves? This is like a really simple thing, but it's yeah. So we changed a lot and we started traveling in a really minimalistic and simple way.

Kai:

So when I look back now it was not a, so the cut was really really hard. We went from crazy spendings to really really low budget. It was just like should we spend this 10 euros now? So we this kind of crazy. We went from spending 400 euros on a bag to should I spend this 250 for a tuk-tuk now, no, we are going one hour through bangkok without taking a walking three days, yeah like crazy um, I can just imagine you packing for a trip at that point and you're trying to choose between 80 pairs.

Kai:

Yeah.

Matt:

But I want to bring these.

Kai:

It was just this huge, huge suitcase that I always had with me. I'm just wearing five pieces, so it's just like that.

Matt:

Well, good for you guys. That's inspirational. I wish a lot of us could live that way. I'm trying, trying, trying harder to be like that.

Lilia:

Yeah, I think if we wouldn't have it done that way, we wouldn't be here right now. So, yeah, I would do it again, because it made everything possible for us, like, give us the time to travel a lot and to think, okay, what are we going to do? Do we want to go back to Germany, to our jobs, or do we want to see? Okay, what, when we travel, like, what kind of people do we met, meet, and then what are they doing, like, what is possible outside of the german?

Matt:

yeah, it's easy to get into a bubble isn't it, that's why a lot of people you meet who are interested in traveling feel that at some point, that pain of wanting to escape a bubble where they've grown up or where their family is. And you get into that nine to five and the miserable weather which we talked about earlier doesn't help and you just want to stay in and watch netflix and it gets dark at four, etc.

Kai:

Etc and and to be honest it was also amazing feeling when you once it make this kind of click in your head. It's just amazing when you start selling because it was just like, hey, can we save? Can we save much money? And then you recognize, oh, when I sell this kind of shoes and I sell this jacket, you're surprised how much comes together for your kind of world trip that's planned. It was pretty helped also a lot hi everyone.

Matt:

Just a really quick break in the podcast to tell you about something that's been a game changer for my own work. You know I'm all about creating content that's impactful and visually stunning, and a big part of that is thanks to Artlist. I use Artlist for all the dramatic cinematic music you see in the trailers and that brings all my other videos to life, and their massive library of high quality stock footage and sound effects is honestly a lifesaver. Whether you're a filmmaker, content creator or photographer, artlist has everything you need to take your projects to the next level. What I love most about Artlist, though, is how easy it makes finding the perfect asset. I'm super lazy, and their platform is super user-friendly, and the quality of their music and footage is just top-notch.

Matt:

It doesn't matter if you're working on a big project or just something small. Artlist certainly has the range and the quality to make your work really stand out. Plus, everything is royalty-free, so you can use it however you like without worrying about the legal stuff. And because I believe in sharing the good stuff, here's a little perk for you Use the link in the description to sign up for an annual plan and you'll get two extra months free. It's a great deal to keep your creative juices flowing even longer. All right, let's get back to the episode and, speaking of selling, now you're selling your artwork, essentially, or your services. Tell us a little bit about your business model and how you make money from doing something that you love.

Lilia:

Yeah, so we started with the vlogs. We stopped the vlogs because we realized, okay, we just want to capture this emotional, aesthetic. Visual language that's like what we love the most doing. Visual language that's like what we love the most doing. And, um, yeah, we posted a lot of instagram and brands started recognizing us and reached out to us that they would love us to shoot for them. I don't know product, destination, hotel, and that's like how we got into that.

Kai:

And, yeah, it's getting more and more and we are happy that it's, yeah, our daily business right now yeah, I think also important to say we never planned to get in this kind of point where we are right now. It was just like a couple grabbing up a camera and just want to take pictures and videos of the journey, maybe for yourself in 20 years or for the family. But was never like, okay, let's start posting because there are so many people out there creating stuff and we can do it also and earn money with this kind of stuff. It was just never. The plan was just like somehow we just dropped into it so was there a plan after?

Matt:

once? You chose to go traveling and we'll get to that in a minute travel came before photography. But what was there a plan after the travel? It was just like go and just no plans. We'll go where we go and see what happens no.

Kai:

So, um, we saved, as we said, we saved money and we also had this kind of yeah, amount of money on the side. So when we come back, this is the amount that we need to get a new car not a new car, but a car uh, pay the first three months, get back to into the job. So it was more like planned. We're doing this kind of long time journal journey. Um, we will keep up the costs as low as possible to travel as long as possible, but they're always at the beginning was like this kind of we. I think we are coming back because we didn't plan, but I think about what would be possible if something turns out. We never thought of building up a business. It was just like we want to go on travel, see as much of the world and come back. But the problem was, after three months, covid dropped in.

Matt:

COVID.

Lilia:

Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, when you travel, you meet as I told, as I as I said, you meet other people. You see what?

Matt:

is possible.

Lilia:

And then, of course, you start thinking okay, how can we make it a business?

Kai:

we enjoy doing videos, so yeah, it's yeah, but I think this just came later. So because we started traveling 2019, then covid came, we have to go back to germany. Broken dreams, no job, a lot of money on the bank account.

Kai:

Couldn't work, stayed at my parents also yeah, it was amazing getting back home with age of 30 or 32, living in your old room with your girlfriends no space, parents all day at home. Yeah, it was pretty sick, it was amazing, yeah. And after a few couple of weeks, you just said, okay, we can't give up on our dreams right now. It's just like we did everything one and a half years saving money, planning everything, and after three months traveling, we have to to go home. It can't be finished yet. Yes, and also at that point, lilia had also a little bit mental breakdown, panic attacks and stuff like this. So we, which just said we can't keep doing this like where we are right now, yeah. So we decided, okay, costa rica is possible, let's go to costa rica.

Matt:

We just jumped on the plane, random plane, and this was when, when, in 2020 so this was mid this was at the height of covid I know because in the height of covid we went back to germany yeah march 2020 and then I think one year later you were living with your parents for one year.

Lilia:

No, not really, because I think we also went to Italy like, did a little bit of Italy to see Venice like with no people.

Matt:

That was pretty nice. Oh yeah, I've heard some fantastic stories. It was super empty, did you go to Venice yeah, yeah with no one around. Yeah, yeah it was perfect.

Kai:

It was just like. When you got up at sunrise, we were the only person standing around. It was just like, but at the same point, it was perfect. It was just like when you got up at sunrise, we were the only person standing around, was just like, but at the same point, it was a shame, because we wouldn't was not taking pictures at this time so it's just like.

Matt:

So when you think back, it's just oh my god, I think about my travels before I started photographing as well, and get went to some incredible places and if only I was had a camera at that time.

Kai:

But yeah, that's just life yeah, I think it's life, so you have to revisit this place, so it's yeah yeah, so we went then to costa rica in march 2021, actually in the beginning of march, yeah and how and so how did I'm interested in now, kind of your visual um aesthetic and your, your, your visual language?

Matt:

should we say where did that aesthetic really atmospheric, ethereal aesthetic come from? Was it something that evolved or did you see an inspiration? We want to do that yeah.

Lilia:

So when we did the vlogs, we always had like this part where we only showcased this visual aesthetic shots from the place where we have been, and while we were doing it we always, um, yeah, felt that this is like the most thing we enjoy doing. So it kind of yeah, started like right away when we started doing the vlogs. It just happened naturally somehow. I don't know, I can't explain, it's just maybe his eye, because he always had like this, yeah, um, visual eye, and so we implemented it right from the beginning. Of course, not as good as now, but it was always part of all our vlogs. And when we stopped doing the vlogs, we concentrated like more on doing just these visuals. So, yeah, I kind of developed over the time from vlogs to just these emotional aesthetic yeah, they're wonderful, would you say?

Matt:

you do 50 video photo, is it? What's the split?

Kai:

no, I think it's 80, 85 video and 15 photo. It's just somehow, since we started this video was always this main factor for us. It's just like enjoying more. To do video somehow, why why video?

Matt:

what is it about video? Well, and photography that really captures. It's so. I mean, what a privilege, by the way, to have two, you know, girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife, you know, interested and passionate about exactly the same thing, right, right, and to be able to do it together. I mean that's wonderful. But what is it about video and photography that really captures, that captures your heart and captures the passion that you have for it?

Kai:

I think this is kind of there are so many people out there creating amazing stuff, but it's just like this kind of when I see something, there are really less people that touches me somehow. It's always when I would open Instagram right now. It's just like a lot of the same things that pop up and how to, and everybody is doing something different, but not especially what's touching me somehow, and I don't know. There's always like this why is nothing really touching me? So not touching me in this kind of what I like? Um, and I think somehow we went in this kind of niche where it was always like this I like this emotional atmosphere, dreamy, um, look, feeling. Um. I think when you see our accounts, you know what I'm talking about. I hope, um, it's just like I.

Kai:

Yeah, somehow we went into that, what we really like and that inspires us. Also because we didn't want to do this kind of one shots lilia going down the roads, drone shots of bali palm trees. It was never something I was really into. Um, yeah, and I, I just think we went in the into the thing that we love to see and just said, hey, I like, I like this kind of style. Um, I would love to create something like this, but on the other side is how to create something? Because I still today I can't really explain what a video makes it that good that I say, oh, I love it.

Matt:

That's a shame, because that's gonna be my next question yeah, yeah, it's just.

Kai:

It's just like there are fewer counts and always some people where I know, hey, this is, it's the kind of style that I like, but it's. Yeah, I think I always need this kind of serenity. I think this is the kind of that also influence our profile serenity, atmosphere, dreaming all a bit more slowly, no fancy flickerings. I think this is the dreamy part that captures us and that's what inspires us. Yeah, but also there are a lot of movies that inspire us, like Joker. There are always some amazing shots in other films.

Matt:

Yeah, I think movies, especially with filmmakers, it's the number one inspiration. Yeah, have you seen the latest Joker? Yes, apparently, it's pretty bad.

Kai:

Yeah, we talked about it. Do you want to answer? I should answer.

Lilia:

Yeah, I mean, we understand why people say it's bad, but on this visual aspect, we think it's really good and that's what. Yeah, we were talking just about the visuals.

Kai:

so we like, we love it yeah I think if you go to the joker movie and expect and film like the first one, you are disappointed because they're singing and stuff like this. But if you just take this part out and just think about the story and the visuals, oh my god, so good. Yeah, the visuals are epic.

Matt:

Yeah, what a director, what a cinematographer. It's a shame that the second one, I guess, turned into a bit of a musical. I don't know what the creative decision was for that, but that's not for me to say. Tell me about the process, especially as, as a power couple, you know doing this together. What does your creative process look like, from concept all the way through to final product?

Kai:

product um personal or business both okay um, so personal.

Kai:

In the past it was just like getting to the beach, have some kind of visuals in mind, um, looked up online, um, there is an app where you can type in this kind of different color grading stuff like this, um, and it will spit you out a lot of different frames. You can type in angles and stuff like this. So it's amazing for inspiration. Um, so we did this a lot of times and just went to the beach and it's more like because, like I said in the past, a lot of angles or shots don't really catch me up while I'm looking online or I never find this kind of shots that I maybe have somehow in mind, um, and then we get to the beach and just try out.

Kai:

It's just like really, really random. Sometimes it's just like okay, really random. Sometimes it's just like okay, let's try it out. And sometimes we are also not really happy how it comes out. So we could go the next morning and next morning, next morning, till I have five shots that I really like. But I think this is the kind of process over time.

Lilia:

Yeah, and I think the root of our creativity is rooted in our love for traveling. That's how and why we started and that's why we love to just travel around and see, okay, what inspires us, what catches our eye. And then we start from there. We're like, okay, what do we see? What can we shoot? How can we capture that? And then sometimes we just let it evolve and see what can we shoot, how can we capture that? And then sometimes we just let it evolve and see what comes out. And, of course, when we do have client works, we do have like a vision from the client.

Kai:

and then we see, okay, how can we align the goal from the client with our creative vision and see how we can combine that of course, most of the time we create a via app, the whole vision board, mood board put all together with all kind of shots that we think this could fit together and, yeah, start creating a whole video already before we go to a shoot. So it's just like most of the time, 80 of the shots when we go to a business shoot is already planned in our minds or in this kind of vision board that we know. Okay, for example, if we do yoga or stuff like this, I already know which kind of angles and shots I would like to capture, because I don't have the time. For when we go to the beach and just try out, it have to work. It's just like the client will not say, oh, why you just try out, it have to work. It's just like the client will not say, oh, why you just captured one shot in two hours. It's just like wouldn't work out like this.

Kai:

So, yeah, we plan it from all with the song already we have. Then most of the time, we have three songs in mind, just to know, okay, this could fit for us, also for the client. Um, yeah, and just going through all this kind of different shots and put something amazing together. So that's the plan, um yeah, how does?

Matt:

how do your roles complement each other? What do you? You know day to day and, but especially when you're doing a shoot, who does what?

Lilia:

so I'm often, or mainly, in front of the camera. So that was like it's a huge part, even for client works. If we shoot a hotel, sometimes I'm in front of the camera. If you do product shoot, it really depends um what the client is asking for. If they do want to have our style, they especially ask okay, can you do it, kai, behind the camera? You're in front of the camera and, yeah, I'm yeah, because he's always behind the camera. I started to manage all like our emails, the back office, that's all on me, so this is a big role of me, but, yeah, so nowadays I'm trying because I really want to be more behind the camera. We implement that more and we'll see how, yeah, how this involves so you need to start being better at answering emails and admin and stuff.

Kai:

Yes, happily there is ai, yeah speaking of ai, how?

Matt:

what is you mentioned product shoots and if you're doing still life? Is that a niche or a sector that you're concerned about when it comes to AI and potentially AI replacing some of those roles, or are you just not bothered about it?

Lilia:

Of course we're thinking about that. So it's getting bigger and bigger and more and if you see some things, it's like really scary what is already possible, and I do think that some kind of shootings will be replaced so you don't need a videographer or photographer, especially product shootings. I think, yeah, but to be honest, I don't think that much like often for ourselves, like how it's got. So what is going to be our role in that or how will this replace us? Do we have like a place in it? What's going to be look like in a few years? Um, yeah, I don't know, it's not something I'm worrying about that much. I don't know if it's good, but, but I think it's just. Yeah, it is important to to um, to know what is possible, to see. How can you implement maybe part of that into our work, but still like keeping it true to our style or like keeping it authentic and not like replacing everything.

Kai:

Yeah, I think in this place it's a helpful tool. I mean, our main language is not English, so even if we're pitching out to brands and stuff like this, you can put a letter inside somewhere and it makes it better. So some things are good. But, like Lilia said, I'm a bit scared of how fast it's coming and I don't really like everything that I see. I mean, you just have to type in woman walking down a road and it looks pretty good. And if I think, how will it look like in 10 years? It's scary. Two years, yeah. Two years, yeah. Two years, yeah, yeah, true, or months, it's just, it's so fast.

Kai:

Um, but I don't want to be this guy who is always thinking, ah, it's not good, it's not good, it's not good because I can't change it. It's just it's, it's happening. You can't change it, it's just coming like a roller coaster. So somehow we have to handle it and, of course, some things will change 100%. There's no way around. And I think the most important thing is how to handle it correctly for yourselves, because everybody is handling it different. Some guys are celebrating everything of it and some guys are just, oh no, I don't use anything. But you have to figure out what's the best way for yourselves, because there's no way past. That's right.

Matt:

That's the point what about human competition? Like it's a competitive world, especially when we look at social media and brand jobs. Right, tell us a little bit about that competition that you have to be immersed in if you're going to pay the rent.

Lilia:

It's really hard not to compare yourself to others, especially if you open up social media Instagram it's like you get so much impact from other people how they are shooting and you feel like, okay, um, the imposter syndrome is like kicking is my stuff like good enough and yeah. So, um, I think it's really hard, uh, really important to um to step back and to to use the social media like in a healthy way to get inspired, but not to compare yourself to others for me, for example.

Kai:

It's always I find this kind of sad thing, this kind of comparison to others. It's just like why the hell can't we work in this kind of space? It's just like, hey, mate, nice work, that's amazing. Just somehow I just have this feeling it got a little bit lost, like tap on somebody's shoulder and just say, hey, man, that's amazing what you did. But it's always like why did he get this job? You just heard hear this comparison all the time. This is some thing that I this kind of sad that it's going this way. It's just like. It's like the competition everybody is come yeah it's fighting.

Matt:

When you say you hear it, where do you hear it? Are you talking about on social media?

Kai:

or just no with clients and just general I think when on meetups or everything, it's just like it's just popping up. It's just not random that we are texting with somebody right now or something like, but it's just, it's always, yeah, the people are talking about. It's just like it's just popping up. It's just not random that we are texting with somebody right now or something like that, but it's just, it's always, yeah, the people are talking about it. It's always like this kind of it's everywhere, somehow, and it's just like somehow.

Kai:

I just think, hey, it's amazing what this guy is doing, or it's this I don't. I don't really want to compare with him. It's just like I'm celebrating his stuff. It really want to compare with him. It's just like I'm celebrating his stuff. It's amazing for him when he works for huge brands and get big deals. Of course, you always have to see, okay, where is my line, where I'm walking. Like you said, I always have to pay also my own bills, but I think if you do something, you do it correctly. Somehow it will turn out. It's just like it's up to you if you can pay your bills or not. It's just like do things where your you have the feeling is working good and you have a good feeling it will return to you.

Matt:

It's just like yeah, I don't see any successful people who don't have. I always use the analogy of horse um, we'll call that the eye, the blinkers. You know, you? You have a bit of tunnel vision, don't you know, appreciate other people's work, but if you're always looking left and right, you're never going to go down the path you want to right.

Matt:

So it's but that's one of the byproducts of social media, I think, and certainly maybe not just social media, just the digital world that we live in. Everything is in our face all the time, if we want it right.

Kai:

so it's, it's understandable in some respect, but it's very dangerous yes, even if you are in bali, it's just like you're surrounded all the time. Everybody's here for the feeling, and so it's just.

Matt:

It's everywhere what about with with clients? We talked about client work. If you're pitching or you're getting pitched to, are they becoming more and more fickle in terms of do you really have to meet what they want because you're worried that they'll go to another competitor very easily? Do you find that, or do you have quite loyal clients that you work with again and again?

Lilia:

We have quite loyal clients, so we are really thankful for that. That's like a really good thing. And, yeah, if you have, like a client that loves your style and gives you the freedom to be creative in your way, it's like the best thing, I think, because, yeah, of course, we have to align our creative vision with the client's goal. But if you have to work, if you have already worked with the client several times, you know how the client likes the stuff and it makes it, of course, more easier.

Matt:

And, yeah, it really depends on the client, then align with a client, what do you? Do you often worry that your, your creative vision and the scope that you have to be creative gets suffocated? Or, again, do you have very good clients that allow you to have that space and that creative?

Kai:

I think the point is, the most of the clients come up to with the tours like, hey, we really want your style, so it's always good for us that we already know. Okay, we don't have really to talk about it. But of course in the past we had one video show. Do you remember? We did a whole video in our kind of style. They didn't give us anything and it was just like okay, can we showcase this kind, this kind, this kind? So it was more like they wanted their selling points, but without letting us know.

Kai:

Yeah, but without the motion. So they skipped all the emotion. We just said, hey guys, maybe let us know in front and just don't tell us do the video how you want to do it. Or let us fire hunt, yeah, let it do it. It the video in our style? Yeah, yeah, so, but I think this is also this kind of business.

Kai:

It's just like you do something. You, to be honest, you know your video is good, but somehow the client doesn't see his. I don't know his room, but he really wants to showcase this room, but didn't tell you. He just said, hey, it's important for us the emotions, and you didn't film, for example, this room, or you didn't include it to the video. So it's just like, yeah, you will miss his, his point in this kind of, then you have to change it. I mean, it's, it's.

Kai:

It's not a big deal breaker if I would just be said, if he says, okay, the video is totally messed it up and I don't like it at all. But most of the time it's just like I really like it, but just, can we do one, two less emotions and include this? So it's first, it's more like a free run in this kind of thing, because we always do, also the not emotional shots, just for the kind of safety shots to have it backwards. So we just say, hey, of course I can include this kind of area or place or this kind of product, for example. So for us it worked pretty good in the last past months years.

Matt:

So no big issues with clients yet when you talk about emotions, and I guess a little bit of storytelling in there would give us some techniques that you know, you've learned along the way that really helps you get emotions into a video or into a photo I I think what is important, what we learned, I think, also because we did the vlogs is movement, like always include movement.

Lilia:

Movement is so important. Different angles and um, also details, yeah, the details. I think this is this is close up.

Matt:

Yeah, close up details.

Kai:

This is the kind of points um, there are so many videos out there where this is the whole scenery, but I'm missing this kind of details. This one, oh, I didn't expect this close up. And then with the song, and then movement with the gimbal, a lot of people and this is somehow why my trimmer is good. It's just I always have to use the gimbal and you have a lot of amazing filmmakers out there but they're always doing this handheld but not moving as much. But I think movement gives your video much more, um, a different feeling, yeah, different feeling.

Kai:

Some, somehow, once you move, it's not static, it's something is happening, it's something is yeah, it's the feeling that creates movement, everything. And so I'm somehow I'm pretty happy that I always use a gimbal, um, yeah, but I think this is the three pieces where I would say, okay, that's the kind of when you fit these three together. And then, of course, this kind of music, music, and you get up soft light in the morning to have this, for example, pink clouds and stuff like this, this kind of grating, emotional touch, how to get it all together, and I think this is a kind of p front everywhere, you take everywhere a piece of cake and put it together to a new cake. It's just like that makes it fit perfectly how did you learn all this?

Kai:

learning by doing, yeah, youtube, youtube, yes, most of the time honestly, and scrolling randomly through some platforms and just looking up and just just thinking, oh, that's pretty nice, and how can I can do this for us and figure out how to do it, because somehow, when you see something, it doesn't mean that you can recreate it. It's just like how the hell, what went lands?

Kai:

have to figure it out yeah, yeah you just have to figure it out, just learning by doing. Um, I think the most learning curve was when we went from solanka to bali. Uh, was for us that? We just said, hey, let's post 30 d reels in 30 days. I wouldn't recommend it in your style no, oh, yeah, it was just when.

Kai:

The first time we came to bali was just, I think we didn't. Color grade at this time was straight out of camera and white balance was on auto, so it was really not good. But we had more time to figure out this kind of angles because you, every morning and every evening we went out and we're creating and it turned out that we did it for five months every day what?

Kai:

yes, a really long time, uh, posting every day and was not enjoyable at all. It was just like it was just putting out. But we used this kind of because we noticed this kind of we're spreading out everywhere. Brands were just reaching out to us like crazy. We didn't really want it, we just wanted to think, okay, let's spread it out, let's try to grow a little bit on Instagram. There was no plan. We just thought, okay, we will post something. And then, yeah, the mail just dropped in. It was just like one mail after the other reached to us out and even at this point the quality was not good, but it was just like this yeah, you opened instagram, you saw us, I don't know. It was just like we were everywhere. Everybody told us you guys are everywhere.

Matt:

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Matt:

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Lilia:

A segue to getting jobs, yeah, jobs right and getting recognized.

Matt:

So is that something? Five months, was that 150?

Kai:

days.

Lilia:

Yeah, I think somehow I think I, I would recommend to be consistent. I think this is like the most important thing. Even if if you started and of course you don't see it like in the first two weeks that it's like you're doing it right, maybe it won't work out, maybe brands won't come, maybe, I don't know, we won't get better, so you don't know what's gonna happen. But, um, if you be consistent, something it's gonna change. So, yeah, I think this is like the most important thing to to do it, just do it. If, even if you fail, even if you I don't know you don't have to do it like every day and you don't so, but like every second day, I don't know, every third day, but there must be like a consistent.

Kai:

Yeah, somehow we're just talking to somebody and you're just saying how can I grow as much as possible and get client work, for example, that they reach out to me, without I'm reaching posts every day? Just do it. So this is just the point, because it's just. It's not and that's the sad thing about Instagram and stuff it's not the art you are creating, it's just the platform likes you because algorithm likes you.

Matt:

Yeah, algorithm, it's just like that's the point.

Kai:

It's not like you're making amazing posts. Algorithm likes you. Algorithm, yeah, algorithm. It's just like that's the point. It's not like you're making amazing stuff. It's also this kind of all this kind of trending stuff. Somebody is uploading a one second reel just because it gets the full watch time and it gets spreaded by Instagram and stuff like this. Oh really, that's a technique.

Matt:

It was it was, yeah, instagram and stuff like this. Oh really, that's a technique. It was.

Kai:

It was yeah, yeah, it was just like some just dropping Apple and it was like 10 million views just because one second you watched it the whole length of the video, so it gets spread out, so it's just like stuff like this. But it's also what do you think about your own work? Yeah, so I think this is just important. Like salita said, you have to do it often even despite instagram.

Lilia:

When we started, we did the vlogs and we, I think we uploaded two vlogs a week and we I don't know we had like 2000 followers on youtube when we stopped. So I think if we didn't stop we would have like, I don't know, maybe would only do youtube, do vlogs. So it doesn't depend where you do it, like do it on instagram, do it on youtube, whatever you like but just be consistent and yeah don't stop I think you really want it.

Kai:

Yeah, I think that's also a downside about us. We always have this kind of mental breakdown or not mental breakdown, but this kind of break. After we did this kind of posting every day, we were tired about it, just because, also, we knew we are not doing quality. It was just like springing out and at this point we took I don't know, two or three months posting nothing anymore. It was like ghosted, we were gone.

Kai:

But in this time we figured out how we really want to showcase our work. And this is this kind of point where we got into this kind of aesthetic, emotional stuff, what we always wanted to do. But you know, once you recognize oh, it's working, it's rolling, why should I change something? But we got to the point where we said how we don't feel this like the vlogs, it's just like I'm not happy with this. I'm I'm shamed a little bit about what we are doing right now, because I want to do color grading, I want to do the right angles, I want to have time for everything and make it more better.

Kai:

Um, yeah, so that was the point where we just stopped and came back with this kind of aesthetic, where we are now where we really feel comfortable doing this kind of stuff, because this is this kind of stuff where we say I really enjoy it to watch our own videos. I think this is the most important. It's just like a lot of people lose this kind of view about how I go up to Instagram and I have so many followers. It's just like, yeah, but is it really means nothing.

Matt:

Yeah, absolutely, it literally means nothing.

Kai:

Absolutely, it's a virtual number, absolutely and that was the point, uh, where we always also would reckon um, give somebody advice, just don't look on the numbers. That's the most worst thing you can do, just to think oh, you posted an Apple drop and you gained 10,000 followers. They're not following you because your work is good or like your style, it's just like it's just Apple following.

Kai:

It's more fulfilling to have a thousand people that love the work that you love more than 10, 20, 50, 100, 000 people that just love you for something you don't the only thing yeah, correctly, the only thing I were, I would say now was just good to post every day in form form because we had to go out and create every day. That is the only, although the only thing I would say there was amazing time. It was just like waking up every day at five the only, although the only thing I would say that was amazing time. It was just like waking up every day at five in the morning to get the sunrise at the beach and stuff like it was just like learning, learning, learning probably learned a hell of a lot yeah it's just yeah it's time uh, part of the process, like you have to start somewhere.

Lilia:

You can't be like good right from the beginning and then you, you start somewhere, and that's what you should do start where you are with what you have. Another advice I would give beginning. And then you, you start somewhere, and that's what you should do start where you are with what you have. Another advice I would give someone and then see how you, how you like it and if you don't like it, stop. Think about what do you want to change, change it and start again. That's I think it's.

Matt:

I don't know if it ever stops on the other side of it, I think a lot of people would look at big accounts like your own on Instagram and say, well, clients wouldn't reach out to you unless you had a certain amount of followers and a certain amount of engagement, right? So there is a constant trade-off, I guess, between putting the time in to grow and knowing that it's a tool, and understanding that, okay, this is not my gallery, right, this is a platform for me to hopefully get brands or clients. That's what I want to do. Or it might be another goal that you have in mind, but using it as a tool to get that, but also making those sacrifices and posting stuff. That may not be your best work, but you know that it, like you said, being consistent and therefore it gets me one step further towards that goal of growing and therefore getting brands reaching out to me. So it's easy for us to sit here and go well, don't worry about the numbers, but worry about them a little bit.

Lilia:

We got our first collaboration opportunity when we had I don't know 500 followers on Instagram.

Matt:

Really that's fantastic.

Lilia:

It was during our time in Mexico, and then we got an opportunity to travel to the US and do a collab with a camper van. Of course it was not paid, but we were like, okay, we don't have a number, like a big number, but they still want to work with us. So it was like a big thing for us by this time. That's amazing and it showed us you don't have to have a huge following.

Matt:

You really don't have to have a huge following, have like a huge following. You really don't have to have a huge engagement's important, I think, and the chances of you getting those types of collabs or deals or paid work is higher if you have better numbers.

Kai:

But it doesn't doesn't mean that you can't have lower numbers and still get work, yeah I've seen it loads of times yeah, I think also because we are talking about engagement and stuff, we never have clients. Who is asking us about engagement or where is our audience coming from?

Lilia:

never, but that's because you've got amazing work. Most of the work we do, we don't do it to post on our social media, so it doesn't like, depends like or it doesn't have like.

Kai:

I think the people should also do more attention to how you write to or how do you pitch to a client. I think a lot of people have this misunderstanding, like, okay, now I have 100,000 on Instagram, I'm kind of famous, my work is amazing and just write two sentences to a client. Of course it can somehow work, but I think it's just put more effort in this kind of pitching and style and how to get in contact with a client than thinking how your grid looks on Instagram.

Matt:

Elaborate on that for me. How do you pitch to a client?

Lilia:

The pitching guru over here of course I um, do my research and to find, like the client we want to work with, so like to see does the, the brand's vision, what I can see now align with our creative vision? And how can we, yeah, make it even better? Maybe if we work together and then I put together a pitch deck. Sometimes so, if yeah, like I don't know, 15 to 20 pages with the idea and stuff like this.

Lilia:

So really a lot of work there's a lot of work yeah, 15 to 20 pages yeah, 19 pages or images, it depends like no, no, honestly I'm just thinking no, and we also have this kind of portfolio.

Kai:

So it's just in the portfolio are the pictures? And the pictures most of the time without. So there are pictures inside for the mood and stuff like that. But most of the time is really getting into the client and trying to hey, what are you missing, what maybe you need, how we can help you and stuff like this. So it's just really find a problem yeah offer a solution.

Lilia:

Yeah, so that's like the german of you.

Kai:

Yeah, yeah, the germans finds the problem but it's true, it's.

Matt:

That's classic marketing one-on-one, it's selling one-on-one find their problem and offer them a solution like how can the time they can't say, no, we've identified a problem for you, we think we can fix it. There you go. It is not easy, but it is as simple as that in terms of a concept.

Lilia:

You always get rejected. Of course, they do get a lot of emails. Sometimes you don't even get an answer and you're like I put so much time into that. The idea is good, so why do you not answer? But that's part of the game, I would say. So yeah, pitching is also. Yeah, you have to be consistent in that.

Matt:

And have you changed your pitching technique over the years? I mean, the only thing I, if I pitch for something, it's do I make this email too long or too short, and do I attach PDFs or do I attach a link and all these kinds of little technical aspects, because we know that these certainly bigger brands get so many emails right. How can we stand out or make it so that it's not an essay for them to read? That makes sense? Do you think about that?

Lilia:

Yeah, absolutely Every time.

Matt:

Yeah.

Lilia:

So, yeah, I do like try to learn as much as possible about sales and stuff like this. How can I like write the email, put all like all I want to say in a short like amount of words so that they do have like all the important stuff, but it's not like overwhelming? And my background is like I have worked in a kindergarten nothing to do like with marketing stuff like this at all so everything that we are doing now is completely new for me. And yeah, of course, I changed the way I approached clients when we started and now yeah, good for you.

Matt:

You, it's awesome. What about outside of client work? Is there anything that else? You do obviously have your personal stuff that you just do for pleasure, but when you talk about color grading and you have a specific style, is that something you thought about selling in terms of lots, presets or that kind of stuff?

Kai:

we over the years. We always got this question, uh, about presets and lots. Uh, till today I don't really know why. It's always like this. Oh, it's always like this. I don't feel ready to put them out there because I wouldn't enjoy. I I always have the feeling it's not good enough. I know it's not right, because a lot of people are asking for it, but it's just like. It don't feel like like maybe like filming. It's don't feel right right now, like it's not the right angle. Something is not inside me that I say, okay, I'm comfortable and throw them out, um sure, maybe someday, but it's not like right now that we are just planning. It's even like this kind of courses and everything. A lot of people ask about courses and maybe you can tell us how to capture this kind of visuals, but it's like no, I don't, I don't feel it right now. I'm sorry, mate, that no, no, even if we could earn something for it, but this is not this kind of idea. I don't want to throw something out just because I can earn something.

Matt:

It's just like yeah, and also when it comes to presets and any type of preset, a lot or whatever there is. There's a bit of a debate, isn't there? And a lot of artists there might be. I mean, I'm one of them's. Like, I don't like the. The way I grade or the way I edit a photo is my. It's like my thing, like I I don't know whether I want to give a part of that away Is that that's probably in your conscious or subconscious as well?

Kai:

I think it could be something that's this yeah, blocks me to do something like this. It's just like somehow, yeah, maybe, yeah, true, Maybe there is something like this that's just saying no, no, I don't feel right because I don't want to give this. That's me, I don't really want to share everything. Yeah, maybe that's also a point.

Matt:

So, in the same space, what does the future look like for you guys? What is the next six, 12 months, two years, five years, if you go that far, goal setting, ideas, visual kind of concepts that you want to achieve?

Lilia:

Yeah, so the last months we have spent a lot of time in Bali. We haven't been traveling a lot, so we are starting more traveling in December, I think. So Really excited for that and we haven't posted like anything.

Kai:

I don't know for how long Two months, I think, already really excited for that and we haven't posted like anything.

Lilia:

I don't know for how long two months, I think already two months now because, yeah, right now we are also in a state of like okay, we do feel like there's a change coming, and how we film, how we like, yeah, what we are filming and yeah, so right now we kind of trying to figure it out. Okay, how do we want to like, what kind of things are we going to change in the future? So when we start traveling, and then, yeah, we will see how it yeah how it evolves so we also yeah, we never.

Kai:

So we do think about of the future, of course, like everybody does, but there is no fixed plans, because one thing teach us about this kind of. We went on a world trip journey and now I'm sitting here on your podcast. It's just like everything can change. Somebody just told me I had a plan, but the plan was shit. So even if you plan everything correctly, it can turn out totally different. So now it's just like thinking in a few months Right now we are going to Australia and New Zealand. In March we go to Sri Lanka. It's an amazing country, and after that we will see. I think in the future we see ourselves somewhere in the woods with a nice working space but more nature-based area, but I honestly could also end up in india somewhere I don't know.

Matt:

It's just like let me rephrase it then instead of plans, dreams and desires anything that's apart from living in the woods with a dog or something dog is important the dog is really important.

Lilia:

Uh, dreams and desires. Of course we want to. We want to travel more, we want to like get better in what we're doing, like I mean, yeah, for ourselves. We see, I do feel like we are still like in the very beginning because we just, I don't know, I feel like we started two years ago and it feels like there's so much we can still improve.

Kai:

So, yeah, working on that, this kind of visuals that we do, just, maybe in a long format video, that would be amazing. Maybe, I don't know, maybe one hour or something, that would be a huge project. Um, but it's still like, not planned, but maybe in the future, something like this just to capture a whole video full of emotions and stuff like this, would be pretty sick. Um, also, I could break it down and use it for instagram, because instagram will hate it.

Kai:

Um, I think this kind of stuff, maybe just getting more into this kind of stuff where we say, hey, when I watch it, I feel something just more and more and more. I think this is the kind of point and, like l said, we always have this kind of feeling we have to improve everywhere. It's just like, if you would ask me, we're just like, nah, I'm not good at this and I have to improve everywhere, even if a lot of people follow you and are inspired by your work. But I think this is also this kind of that we had before. If you open Instagram and you see some people doing amazing work, it's just nope.

Matt:

I'm not posting this anymore because he's doing it so crazy good and yeah, so I think I think it's always an artist struggle as well, though, to have almost a displeasure with the last bit of work you did. Right. There's always something you know well that's not good enough. I'm on to the next one. Right, what's your best piece of work? The next one I make. So I think that helps with that pursuit of greatness, or what you know, fulfillment, whatever you're trying to get out of the art that you create.

Kai:

But yet you're not alone yeah, I can feel that all the time. Yeah, and I think this is also back to the question I just said. That's maybe because we don't know where we will be, because because it's always the next project a better one, the next one is going to be better and it will showcase something different. So it's always like this.

Matt:

Yeah, all right. Let me ask you this, then If travel was not an option as of tomorrow, there's another COVID world shutdown how would your creative journey evolve?

Lilia:

That's a good question.

Kai:

I think I would open something like you here, like a coffee shop in a studio. No, without the coffee shop, but a studio.

Matt:

Decaf coffee shop. Yeah, decaf coffee shop, Exactly exactly.

Kai:

No, I think we would do more stuff at home. I think this is also what we thought about when COVID dropped and we were at my parents' we didn't have our own space, so it was not an option to build up a studio in their bathroom, so we didn't have the space. But in this case, if I would know okay, we'll stay here for longer I would open a studio Because once you're at home, you can can get lights, you can get so many more stuff that helps you to create creative stuff, so I could do a lot more at home. Um, that was, would one point to be, because then I know I can get creative at home, yeah, so you don't have to travel yet because right now, it's just like everything I buy when I leave because we are not settled in Bali.

Kai:

It's just like I have to take it with me so you don't buy so much stuff, and sometimes, yeah, it would just be helpful to have flights and everything just to get the shot that you have in mind. Yeah, I think just somehow something like this, just to keep up the creativity, because we know the other side being long, somewhere you lose your creativity, like the points at my parents that we just lost all the creativity and was so empty and not enjoying anything anymore. It was just like the camera was just like a enemy, I didn't want to pick it up anymore. It was just like the camera was just like a enemy, I didn't want to pick it up anymore. It was just like I wouldn't give it a try, and I don't want to get in this kind of position anymore. I would just do it all the time, posting every day.

Matt:

Well, we've loved having you in the studio. You can use the studio anytime you like. Thank you so much. And while you're still here, don't be a stranger Hope to see you again for a coffee.

Kai:

For sure.

Matt:

Or decaf coffee.

Kai:

We'll get some decaf for you. Rot, rot.

Matt:

But in the meantime thank you so much for joining me. So glad I finally got you on the show and I've really enjoyed the conversation.

Kai:

We're happy we finally made it.

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Matt Jacob

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