The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
What's The Secret to Powerful Portraits? - Mary Vance, EO69
What does it mean to truly connect with your subject?
For Mary Vance, a renowned Seattle-based photographer specializing in capturing high school senior portraits, it’s all about authenticity, natural settings, and meaningful connections. Starting her journey with teenagers while still a teen herself, Mary has over 20 years of experience capturing the stories of young people with a unique approach that goes beyond the lens.
In this episode, Mary delves into her techniques, philosophy, and journey in photography, shedding light on how empathy and authenticity shape her work. Mary shares her insights on building rapport with her subjects, creating a safe environment for them and the delicate balance of maintaining authenticity in both her work and branding.
What we discuss:
- The power of authenticity and empathy in portrait photography.
- Why 'connection' is everything in Mary's approach.
- Balancing creativity with structure in portrait sessions.
- The importance of client comfort and observation for natural portraits.
- Tips on posing workflows that keeps subjects relaxed and confident.
- Insights on maintaining professional boundaries while being approachable.
Find Mary Vance's work on her channels:
Website: https://www.maryvance.com/
Instagram: @maryvancephotography
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Message me, leave a comment and join in the conversation!
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
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https://mattjacobphotography.com/newsletter
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www.mattjacobphotography.com
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IG | X | TikTok | Threads | YouTube | @mattyj_ay
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation one frame at a time. I'm your host, Matt Jacob, and thank you for joining me in today's conversation, and in this episode we spoke with Mary Vance, a Seattle-based photographer known for her inclusive and authentic approach to portrait photography, especially with high school seniors. Mary shared how her sessions are designed to make each subject feel genuinely seen and valued, highlighting her commitment to creating a safe and welcoming environment for teens of all backgrounds. We explored her journey of balancing the demands of photography business while staying true to her creative vision, including how adding video has really expanded her artistic and commercial work. Mary also shared her dedication to teaching and advocacy, diving into how she supports her students and incorporates advocacy into her client relationships. She also discussed her personal contradictions, such as being both an introvert and deeply people-focused, and how these traits shape her creative approach, as well as the inspiration and experiences behind her motto Authentic, Natural, Connected. Additionally, Mary Vance opened up about her philosophy on the balance between the right gear and maintaining a strong artistic vision, explaining how she chooses equipment that supports really her creative goals. She also shared some inspiring stories about building meaningful relationships in her career and the impact these connections have had on her work. Our conversation was a deep dive into photography, authenticity and the power of human connection. So now I bring you Mary Vance.
Matt Jacob:Mary Vance, welcome to the Mood Podcast. Thank you so much for jumping on with me today. Thank you, I'm really excited to be here. Yeah, let's do it. Let's dive right in. The first thing that I wanted to talk about, because it's, I wouldn't say, plastered across your website, but it's a clear identity that I found when I was looking more into you and your work, and it was a few words, it was authentic, natural, connected. Can you kind of elaborate a little bit more on those type of brand identities?
Mary Vance:Yeah, the word authentic especially kind of got a bad rap for a little while. There, you know like, people were, you know, tossing around. They're like, oh, okay, you know I had a video coach. A video coach, she was coaching me on storytelling for my films that I make, for the videos that I make and whatnot. And so I joined this mastermind or whatever, and I was like you know, I was like, oh, here are my you know like identifiers, here are my keywords, and one of them is authentic. And she was like, she literally made that noise to me and said, you know, she was like, oh, you really can't put that on anything. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to ride it out. And so I did. It's going really well because, you know, turns out that once people realize what my version of authenticity was, it was something that was really going to resonate with them as well. And so, you know, I do.
Mary Vance:You know authentic meaning who you truly are, and especially in terms of photography and my subjects, you know all portraits so authentic, who you really are natural.
Mary Vance:I'm not, you know, taking you outside of your normal range of movement, I'm not making you, you know, like, go bouldering if you're you know like wearing high heelsering, if you're you know like wearing high heels or things like that, you know like natural range of movement, things that you know I'm putting you in situations that you would actually really be in.
Mary Vance:Right, so true to who you are, is the authenticity, the natural piece is, you know I'm, I'm putting you in a place that you would really be like. I would actually go take a hike here with my friends, you know, like, like, and we just kind of you know like tool around and and the connected piece is is the piece that really became kind of a cornerstone of my business and my philosophy, because so many people are afraid of teenagers and I work almost exclusively with teenagers and and there's, there's seems to be this barrier in terms of, you know age, when we go or start thinking about adolescence, or maybe it's even some of our own traumas that we're carrying from our own adolescence, right, and oh, the teenagers are scary, you know, I don't want to, you know, be in that. And the connected piece comes in and the fact that I'm not afraid to um, to embrace a teenager where they really are and so how did these words and these identities more like philosophies, I guess, in your, your professional, personal way of living?
Matt Jacob:how did they come about? How did that? How did? Where was the genesis of these types of philosophies?
Mary Vance:Yeah, I actually. I started working with teenagers fresh out of high school, when I was still, you know, technically, a teenager myself, and so I have worked with and mentored teens for over 20 years at this point, and so that was the genesis it was. You know, these were the kids that were coming over to my house. They were, you know, eating my food and jumping on my couch I talk about that all the time because I'm still bitter about the fact that they broke my couch but these were kids that I was just like doing life with.
Mary Vance:And then, you know, you start a business and, right, I feel like first year photographers, you know, are kind of like OK, I'm gonna like I have to know all the right editing, I have to know all the right gear, I have to know all the this right.
Mary Vance:And I started down that path and then kind of had some, some really wise mentors who leaned in and were like no, no, no, that that stuff will fade, you know, if you don't have a purpose. And it kind of evolved from there to say, well, these are the things that I was doing already in my everyday life. This was what my mission was, this is what I valued. I valued connected time with the teenagers that I mentored and as soon as I brought that in to my work with clients and took that same approach, as I brought that in to my work with clients and took that same approach, it was just I mean absolutely, you know 180 in terms of how passionate I was about the work that I was doing and how excited I was to go to every single photo shoot. And you know, yeah, it completely changed my business.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, that type of passion is contagious, right, and not just within the photography community or within other professions that are similar, but much more so on the client side, right, if you're working with a customer and a client, they can.
Matt Jacob:They can see that passion, they can really see that desire and that just enthusiasm to have that purpose and to stick by it. You know often photographers and maybe you can touch on this as well but they get, like you said, when you start, you get wrapped up with lots of different things and then you get wrapped up with what's my style and what's my voice and what am I trying to do. But I think, once you are clear and have that clarity around your purpose and around your vision and around okay, this is me, this is where I'm comfortable, it kind of just leaves everything else aside and you can really focus on what's important, which is connecting with your models, your subjects, the people you're photographing or the environments, whatever it might be. So, on that note and you mentioned this earlier people seem to be afraid or a little bit intimidated or, whatever it might be, nervous around teenagers. Why do you think that is? Why is that in your experience?
Mary Vance:Well, I have a very honest answer about that. Teenagers will not suffer anyone's bullshit and that is really intimidating. If you have this, oh, here's my facade, you know, this is, this is me in professional, you know, like work mode, but you're not being, you know, genuine with them in any way and I think that's really um, intimidating and um, they can, they also can sense our insecurities, you know, and that's a vulnerable place to potentially be, you know. Finally, you know, I mean sometimes too, like, the experience, I think, with teenagers is like, you know, you go into a coffee shop right when school is left out and you see, you know, like a little group of teenagers, right, and that's a really intimidating thing because they're all like in it, you know with each other, and it's kind of like observing some.
Mary Vance:You know anthropological study, right, and so I think you know, depending on what other photographers you know, kind of experience has been with teenagers. They haven't had the opportunity to see them when the walls are down, right, and instead of like, you know, like out in public or whatever, or they have some own of some of their own insecurities themselves that they're maybe still carrying from, you know, from middle school or from high school or things like that, and it's hard to think back to what was that time like, especially if you have any, any wounds that you need to heal around that age or you know that time in your life yeah, and, and you talk like you.
Matt Jacob:You, I mean, we all have experience being teenagers, but you talk as if you is so connected with that memory and the feeling of being a teenager. Touch upon a little bit more detail about your background and how you got into photography and it's really interesting the way you kind of grew up with it as a teenager and you started photographing back then. If I, if I'm correct, can you, can you explain a little bit about you, know your the starting years in photography background?
Mary Vance:actually, um no, I didn't pick up a camera, I didn't get a DSLR until 2011 was when I got my first DSLR. What I was doing before that, though, I had a 25-year-long career as a dancer, and I taught dance for a decade before I left the dance world behind, and so teaching dance, choreography highly artistic but who was I working with the entire time that? I was teaching those same teenagers, right? So I'm in that. You know they're, they're coming in every single week and they're with me and you know. And again, the walls are down, because when you teach, you know, teach somebody for multiple years at a time and you're seeing them every single week, right? You're really getting to know who they are, not only as an athlete or as an artist because dance combines both athletics and art but also who they are as a person, kind of what makes them tick.
Mary Vance:So I gave up dance when I moved across the country. So I moved from North Carolina to Seattle Washington a while back and gave up dance. I had two little children, and it was kind of that first year there was just, honestly, it was just miserable, there's no other way to say it. I had left my entire support system. I was, you know, this little Southern gal who thought that I was going to be, you know, like, like you know that the house that I had bought I was going to live in forever and be buried in the backyard you know, or whatever, how old were you at this time?
Mary Vance:It was 2010. So I was 26 when we moved. Yeah, um and yeah, two little kids left my support structure and everything moved it 3 000 miles away. And then, um and all of this you know the zoom calls and the, you know facetime it didn't exist. And so, you know, um, it was just just phone calls or writing letters.
Matt Jacob:Landline calls.
Mary Vance:Landline calls.
Matt Jacob:Landline calls.
Mary Vance:I did not have a smartphone, you know. So I mean like it was 2010. Yeah, I just found myself after that first year in a creative rut. I was used to having massive amounts of connection, you know, with kids teaching dance like four or more nights a week, right, multiple classes a week, so I'd have 100 or more kids that I was always like working with, constantly my entire family, all my friends, everything. I had a huge community and then moved away and sucked right the void out of that. So we had been there for one year. So we, uh, had been there for one year and, um, and my husband got a little uh bonus. Um, he got like a like a little one year anniversary bonus or whatever, and instead of doing anything smart with it, we both said that we wanted to get a toy and so, and so his what? I have no idea what his was.
Mary Vance:Mine was a camera, and I had a friend of mine who was a photographer in North Hollywood in California and I called her and I didn't even have the vocabulary around it to say I need something that has a high shutter speed. I just said I need a camera that moves as fast as my youngest child we had always called that kid the blur because you just couldn't I mean, like they just moved too fast and I didn't even know to say like, like shutter speed is a you know is a problem, or you know, or didn't know anything about exposure. And so she coached me and to get my first DSLR, and then I started trying to photograph my kids and found out real quick that I didn't have the patience for it, neither did they. So, you know, it segued pretty quickly into senior photography, because those were the kids that I loved spending time with and they had absolutely all the patience in the world.
Mary Vance:They're like, oh my gosh, you got a new lens. Will you bring it, you know, to group tonight tonight? We bring a small group tonight, and sure, and they're like, oh yeah, let's go do this. Can we go to a park and do you like have take photos? And I was like, yes, I would love to come practice and do this. So yeah, but went senior specific pretty quickly did they?
Matt Jacob:do they still have that kind of enthusiasm now that they've got smartphones and instagram and tiktok or?
Mary Vance:absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, like I mean, and now that, I guess, now that they have instagram and tiktok and you know well, everybody always has a camera in their hand but they also know the difference between a good photo and a Snapchat selfie, right? So I don't think that'll ever lose its appeal.
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Matt Jacob:All right, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, let's not dive into social media, but yeah, there's an interesting point. I think you can. You know, we all know, you can take good photos on an iPhone. We've seen it. But it's lovely and refreshing to hear that the seniors and I want to clarify this just for non-American listeners and watchers seniors, as in, senior high school children, right? So what age are we talking? 18?
Mary Vance:Yes, 17 or 18.
Mary Vance:Although the very first time that I went to a conference I tell people this all the time my very first conference that I went to a conference I tell people this all the time my very first conference that I ever went to, I took like I had no direction.
Mary Vance:It was just like, oh, let me take this, this, this, this, this, this and this and stuff, all over the gambit, you know, all across the genre range. And one of them said watch me edit seniors. And that was the name of the, that was the title of the class, and I went in thinking that I was going to learn how to Photoshop wrinkles off a pensioner, you know, or like that it was going to be octogenarians and you know, and like, like the, you know, like those really gritty black and whites. I always tell people I was so shocked when I went in and I was like, wait, these are like my kids, like the kids that are in my house, and you, I just that was the day that I was like, oh, okay, there's a whole market for this, this is what I'm doing.
Matt Jacob:So, yeah, cool. Um, yeah, because when I, when I first found out about you and told you, you know, obviously uh, talking a lot about senior photography, I was like I don't see any old people here, and then it clicked, obviously, uh, but yeah, it's refreshing to hear that these seniors, uh, you know, want to, or at least recognize the difference and still appreciate the, the art form, the process, the technology that is professional photography, professional cameras, um so yeah, that that's really refreshing to hear. Uh, so when you're out shooting and you have a job come up or you're out shooting and practicing, seniors, how do you maintain I'm assuming you've done a lot of it right how do you maintain that creative spark? How do you maintain that kind of not originality but a uniqueness to each shoot? What's your process about going about that?
Mary Vance:yeah, um, I you know I have a very, very short intake questionnaire so that I know basically, essentially one thing before I go into the shoot. Um, well, I know maybe three things. I always know their name, I know their pronouns, um, because I ask it on on their um sheet. And then the question the only other personal question that I ask on my intake form is and a lot of times it's a parent who's filling out this intake form and it just says tell me about your senior. And it's very open-ended, that's it Tell me about your senior. And sometimes I get you know a list of the, like a you know transcript or resume, kind of they do this, they do this, they do this. But what I find? A list of the, like a you know transcript or resume, kind of they do this, they do this, they do this. But what I find is that most of the time, whatever's most important to that kid, the the parent's going to tell me. So I have a little bit of knowledge before I go in. And then the question of how do I make this unique? This is this might sound like a backwards answer.
Mary Vance:I use structure so that I can be creative. Does that make sense. So I have a posing workflow that I can work through and it's just on autopilot at this point. Because of that, you know I've done. I always go to known locations, I know where the light is, I know what time the sun's going to go behind this mountain, what time the tree line is going to interfere with this, or if I can get by shooting earlier in the day because of said features, or, oh, if it's cloudy, then I can flip them around and I can do this here.
Mary Vance:So taking those bits of structure puts that side of my brain on autopilot, and the piece, then, that makes it the most unique is that my conscious mind is free to actually engage with and talk and connect. That's the only piece that's going to be different from every, within every single photo shoot is that you have a different person in front of you. I can take the exact same person and you know you've probably seen this on YouTube, where they'll take the same person and have six different photographers photograph them Right and and they'll see. You know, like you see, it's entirely different.
Mary Vance:You know, even if it's the same subject, every photographer's, you know, interpretation of it is much different, and so this is kind of that in reverse is that I I'm taking, you know, same photographer, same posing workflow, same locations, and so the thing that becomes the most unique is the person themselves, and I think that makes a more beautiful portrait than really you know then, oh gosh, what did we joke about? You know? Kids renting a helicopter to paraglide into a remote mountain location so that they get a place that none of their friends had, and I'm like that doesn't matter. You know that level of uniqueness. It doesn't matter if you're connected to the person that's in front of you.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, totally agree. It's very important with portraits, but what is also important you mentioned it is having a toolkit right, especially with posing, to be able to kind of think about it as not even think about it as second nature. Tell us a little bit, without giving away your trade secrets. Give us an idea of what your posing workflow looks like. That'd be of great interest to people who'd like to do portraits.
Mary Vance:Yeah, and I generally do just give it away. Honestly, there's a point where I say, okay, I can photograph X number of kids a year, right, and I have every confidence that the people who need me to be their photographer will find me. But I also think of all of the hundreds of thousands of kids who will graduate just in the US just this year, and I'm like I want them to find somebody who sees them the exact same way. So I don't, I don't gatekeep, I'm not holding, I don't hold pretty much anything close to the vest anymore. I just, you know, I just share it all and I know that it will reach the people that it needs to reach. I'll even teach people that are like right within. You know, I've taught people who have been less than five miles from me and I don't even, I don't even care, I'm like no, I'll teach you my methods, it's fine. Um, I was like there's more than enough.
Matt Jacob:It could be a long conversation, right?
Mary Vance:let's start from the top yeah, sorry, um, workflow posing, um, I always just try to keep it with a natural range of motion, right. So, um, I start observing, uh, my seniors from the minute that they walk up to me, right, I notice and pay attention to how they're walking. This is where that dance background comes in, um, and so basically I divide everything into standing, sitting and walking Right. And so seated poses are very easy to for people to get comfortable in. To begin with, I always say gentlemen will sit comfortably on just about anything you know and they'll just like relax right into it, and so that's a good way for them to get comfortable with me. Before, you know, before I had the camera right in front of their face.
Mary Vance:So seated poses, standing, which you can also do kind of like perch, use different. You know natural elements in the Pacific Northwest, which is where I had my business for over a decade, there's no shortage of rocks and trees and you know fences and just every kind of natural aspect you could possibly think of. It's beautiful. And then walking is just to introduce movement, right, because once when their brain is tied up on doing something else, right, then it kind of frees them up a little bit to, you know, to have a little bit more relaxed nature, right, if they're thinking, you know, they're like okay, oh, I'm just walking, okay, that's cool, you know, and then you'll see it on their face, and so those are, that's the, that's the three tricks, right there I think that one thing on the one thing I've found the most success with um doing portraits is that first five minutes of observation and they might be thinking, well, what do I do?
Matt Jacob:but if you can distract them from the actual shoot with a coffee or drink or just chat right, and while you're chatting you may not be 100% listening, you might just be observing. Okay, how do they move? Let's sit down. And how would they normally sit in a very relaxed pose. So many times I have models I don't know what we call the model subject people, people we photograph, sit down and they're like okay, how do you want me to sit? It's like oh well, just however you'd normally sit, let's look at that first. It might be great. Sometimes they sit perfectly and relax and they just fit into it, and other times maybe not, and then we have to. So I think that observation is in my experience anyway, and you've just kind of reiterated that it's it's can be very, very useful just in a very short space of time, whether they're walking, sitting or whatever they might be doing there's also a piece of it where, um, you know, you said like, you know that first five minutes, that observation is key, right?
Mary Vance:um, there's a couple of tricks that I've learned in terms of making sure that they're comfortable right off the bat, you know, right from from that first interaction. One of those is I do multiple outfits, right, so I want to give them a win as quickly as I can, you know, like something that I can compliment them on or boost their confidence about as quick as you know me saying like something that they did right. And then I also, um, in terms of comfort, I want them to be able to do something immediately that they're like oh, okay, I got that. You know, I did that properly, right? And so, um, I asked them to to take me through their outfits, and so let's say that they're wearing three outfits, you know, three different outfits for this photo shoot.
Mary Vance:All of their clothing is a known entity to them. It's also easier for a person to talk about an inanimate object, right, like, than it is to talk about themselves, and so that's a, you know, that's a comfort thing. So I'm giving them the opportunity to be the expert in something right, to tell me like, okay, this is what I thought, you know, I was thinking I would wear this, and I was thinking I'd wear this, and I was thinking I'd wear this. And then I give them the chance to have a win. Oh, do you know what? Okay, at this location, this outfit, we're gonna use this last because this is gonna be perfect. I can't believe you picked that to go for here, you know Right. And so it's confidence, it's allowing them to be the expert in something. Right, because they're talking about their you know, their wardrobe or whatever.
Mary Vance:You know, like their shoes. Oh my gosh, shoes can be huge, you know, yeah, especially for teenagers, you know. And yeah, no, the shoes, shoes are a big deal, and so sometimes I'll have, like you know, four different. Which pair do you think I should go with? You're like okay, well, so we'll be at this location for this. How comfortable are you walking on rocks, you know? And? And then there might be, oh, you know what, let's do this. And then they're in a position of authority, they're becoming the expert, they're telling me what they're comfortable with, and those walls are breaking down. So, um, that's a trick that I use right at the beginning too, you know.
Matt Jacob:And with some of the most sensitive people. Right, the 17, 18 years old is very sensitive age where you have to be so empathetic and rewarding and inclusive. Right, I mean, I definitely couldn't do it exclusive, right, I mean, I definitely couldn't do it. So, you know, so much respect to you for for, you know, for photographing these youngsters and but it's clearly you get fantastic results by, by the look of your work. So that's, that's incredible. Does that even go into photography techniques to allow and set up an environment for these teenagers to be seen and heard, not just look good but also, you know, really understood in in terms of what the photographs end up as?
Mary Vance:or is there other layers to that? And that's a key, uh component of you know of my, of myself and um, and how I operate, um, so I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't just say go, no, anybody could like you. You do have to have, you know, kind of a deep seated empathy for humanity, I think, in order to do portraits effectively.
Matt Jacob:Those tools, then, that you use to allow the individual or groups, I guess, but the individual, to feel comfortable in your presence, before you, I guess, even take a shot, you, I guess, even take a shot. Is that also the same technique you might use? Or are there other techniques you might use to get a little bit deeper and create an environment for the individual to be seen and heard, not just necessarily look good and feel comfortable?
Mary Vance:Yeah, you know, I think at that point, what you're talking about in terms of tools that you can use is really good client education. You're talking about in terms of tools that you can use is really good client education. And you know, you probably just even perusing my website, right, and that doesn't mean just because somebody lands on my website doesn't mean that they're going to be my client, but they get a client guide. You know that talks through like, hey, this is how your session's going to flow. I'm going to ask you questions, you know, or I'm going to do this, and then you know the rest of your um client education. You know, some people would call it marketing, right, becomes. Um, you know, on your socials and in the blog posts that you write, and basically anywhere that you're showing up, anywhere that I'm showing up, I'm always sending the message I am safe, I am safe, I am safe, right, and and I will, I will share details that I'm allowed to share, you know, or I'll go straight to camera, um, you know, for a little story, after a photo session, right, and the kids that are going to, you know going to be photographed by me. They're probably already following me on, you know, on social or their mom is, or something. And so I'm saying like, oh my gosh, you know we had this fantastic session tonight. This kid loved D and D. I had no idea like what I was talking about, but with D and D. But I talked to my kids a little bit before that and we played a game and I was like so we did storytelling throughout the entire session and I was like I had so much fun and so I'm opening the door for oh, that's kind of, you know, like a little niche thing that you might not see in a portrait, you know, or whatever.
Mary Vance:And so everywhere that I'm educating or doing any kind of marketing, I'm always talking about things like you're safe with me, you know. Or I'll pin you know, like for the local schools that I work a lot in, I'll go through and like this kid got an award for something and they send out the school send out like little emails and stuff like that. Or, you know, you'll see them tagged on Instagram and you know, and I'll like, post and be like look at this kid, this is so awesome, I'm so proud of them, you know. So they know it's more than just the photo shoot, right.
Mary Vance:And then the other thing that I do, um and this is just, I don't know if this is a tool, so much is it something that helps me, as you know, as a photographer, um, more so than maybe helping the subject is I write down um on.
Mary Vance:I make a little list at the beginning of every season I have a very like tight season but I make a little list and I write every kid's name down that I'm going to photograph on a list and I keep that list on my desk for the entire season so that I am constantly like thinking about these kids and sending them. You know all the all the light and good energy that I can you know like, especially around exam times. Or you know all the all the light and good energy that I can, um, you know like, especially around exam times. Or you know things that I know that are kind of going on you know in their lives, just being a member of the community and being part of the um community that I work in, and so I do that for me and that keeps me really connected to them as well.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, Wow, Wonderful that's. That's some real insights that I haven't even thought of. And how powerful branding essentially branding with transparency can give so much education to the client before you even either book in or before you even shoot, so that they already feel like they know you a little bit and they already feel a level of comfort that, okay, Like they know you a little bit and they already feel a level of comfort that, okay, Mary Vance is going to like, give me the best opportunity to show who I am and and put me in the best light, both literally and figuratively. So that was really, that was really cool. I never really thought about that in terms of I guess that's a use of social media and the digital world we live in today.
Mary Vance:right, that's a key for me with social media. If I'm not building community or actually being more social with anyone, if social media becomes a thing for me where it's leading to negativity and bad thoughts and stuff like that, then I've spent too much time focusing on the wrong things within my algorithm and so I tell people all the time my social media is happy, happy, happy.
Mary Vance:I was like it's wonderful. I'm like look, y'all went to homecoming dance this weekend. Look at your dress, love it, love it. And I get to be like it's a happy place for me. You know, because I make it actually social, you know I'll reach out and be like oh my gosh, I saw that, you know, saw that you just made the.
Mary Vance:Oh gosh, I had a gal a couple years ago. Their basketball team was playing in the state championship for basketball and she made a half court shot at the buzzer. She just just threw it and it went in and their team won the state championship. She's a division one basketball player in college now and like, but just that moment it was just like, oh my gosh, you know. And so, like I put that all over my stories that week. I was like look at this kid. And then later, you know, she's like thank you so much for you know, like actually paying attention to what I did in my life and I was like it's something that you live for, so of course it's going to be important to me too.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, your connection and integration into and interest in their lives clearly comes across in your work and that's often the missing part that you know a lot of photographers might be searching for to actually really take a genuine we go back for authenticity genuine interest in these kids lives that you're you're photographing in order to a make them feel empowered, seen, heard, make them look good and, at the end of the day, get good photographs right, um that you're paid for. So that's really really fantastic and inspirational to to see and hear I know I do want to.
Mary Vance:Before we move on, I do want to add one thing here because this is actually really important to me. Um, I have, I have very good boundaries and I don't want anybody listening to this podcast to think like, oh, you need to go be best friends with some 17 and 18 year olds in order to get good photos of them. No, that's not true, I have, I have very good boundaries around, like what I share of myself. The point of this is that I am open to what they want to share with me, right, and so, like it's not a like I said, like we don't have to be best friends with teenagers. You know, right, that to me, honestly, would seem a little bit unprofessional, but they know that I am safe and that they can bring their whole self, you know, to the photo shoot and stuff like that. But I'm not going to be, you know, as a 40 year old woman, I'm not going to be like talking to them, you know about, like my own personal stuff, right, there's there for good professional boundaries. So I don't want anybody to be afraid and be like I don't want to go be friends with 17 year olds and I'm like, no, that's not, that's not what you have to do. I mean, like you know, if you're called to be, you know, like mentor and be more involved in stuff like that, but even a mentorship, you know kind of relationship that is based in you know, good, good, strong boundaries right around what you can and what you can't pour into that.
Mary Vance:And it's totally okay for photographers if they're just getting into senior photography or any type of you know working with clients. It's totally okay to show up 100% for the person who's in front of your camera today and then show up 100% for the next person the next day. Right, it doesn't lessen anyone's experience If you are, you know, being there for this person today and then being here for this next person, you know, the next day. And so I don't want anybody to think like, oh, I can't be friends with that many people you know, or you know again, don't want to be friends with a teenager. I'm like I don't ever want anybody to mishear. You know what I'm, what I'm getting at with this. But so that's just always a clarifying point that I like to say like you can have good boundaries and still be a safe person. You can be open to seeing somebody and still, um, you know and and not necessarily pour your own you know story and your own stuff onto them.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, absolutely Glad you made that clear. Um, there's a point of diminishing returns with this anyway. I mean, imagine shooting your, your best friend, all the time. It just doesn't. You're not going to get the photos. You have to have that professional boundary, of course. So, yeah, thanks for clarifying. You talked about the happy vibes that you surround yourself with and, just thinking about the amount of shoots that you've done with seniors, and over so many years, there must have been some difficult situations, maybe some upsetting or real challenges with the seniors that you've photographed. Can you think of any example might come to the forefront of your mind and, if so, what did you learn from that?
Mary Vance:Yeah, actually, as soon as you said that was like, oh, I know exactly, I know exactly the challenging situation. Um, actually, no, there's two um, I'll choose to talk about one first. Um, I had a senior, uh, gentleman who, um, who his mother had said just said he's not really excited about having his photo taken, and I was was like, okay, that's fine. And um, you know, and this was actually kind of early, um, I wasn't that far in um, I don't think, probably like year two or maybe year three, and so, um, you know, like, did the photos and at one point I had, I think, I got like a little bit too close. Um, I was probably shooting on primes and so, you know, like, like I was leaning in a little bit more, um, and he growled at me and I was kind of like, oh, and you know like I, I immediately like stepped back and you know and, and pulled back out of this you know scenario or whatnot. And um, and I was like okay, and um, I was like you know what, let's, let's move. I was like let's change this, right, and so, just rolling with, okay, there's something that's making you not comfortable here, that you would be like you know, and like all right, um so moved, went along the rest of the photo shoot, um, when, when his mom got the photos, she sent me a thank you, thank you so much. I never thought that I would have, you know, um, these, this type of photos of this kid, and I was like all right.
Mary Vance:And then, a few years later, um brought me the younger brother, younger sibling, and, um, and while, and this kid was very into it and I went, you know, I went into it thinking like oh gosh, this is the only teenager that's ever growled at me, you know before, like what am I going to get again, you know? And so I was kind of like all right, you know, um, like stealing myself for, uh, for this to be horrendous. And while he was changing his outfit, his mom said, you know, I appreciate so much the photos that you took of his older brother, and and I was like, oh yeah, you know, how is this kid doing? You know like, how's he doing? You know, like just kind of catching up and showing an interest and whatnot. And she said, well, she said he's so much better now. And she said, when you photographed him, that was just a few months after his twin brother had passed away and I had no idea had passed away and I had no idea, and, and so this kid had obviously been going through a lot.
Mary Vance:Now, what did that teach me, right in that scenario, is that that this is not just that scenario. This is a lot in life too. So often we think it's about us and it's not about us. It was not that I, you know, like, like I I had probably broken whatever he wanted his personal bubble of comfort to be. I'm usually pretty good about noticing, you know, like, if people step, you know like if you step towards them and they step back, I, I usually, you know I'm pretty good about noticing what your personal space bubble needs to be.
Mary Vance:And so I was like, oh, what did I do? Like, did I make him angry, right? Did I? Did I do this? Did I do something wrong? Did I make him uncomfortable? You know, whatever it was, and what that scenario taught me is it's not always about us and if we can get out of our own way of thinking about, it's always about us as opposed to something else is going on in this kid's life. You know, right now, like, and we don't know everything. You know as open and as welcoming as we can be, we're never going to know everything about this kid, you know, and what's going on. And so what it taught me is don't take it personally, right, and then always consider the fact before you jump to. You know, being kind of offended, you know that somebody was rude, right, or what have you. Don't jump to that. The place to go with that is going oh okay, if they're reacting this way, there's probably something that's going on with them well, what a yeah, a great lesson for life.
Matt Jacob:More than just I mean shoot. Photographing people is a very difficult endeavor, right, and photographing teenagers is even more difficult. Photographing teenagers just lost twin brother, whether you knew that or not is is nigh on impossible, right, it's. It's a very difficult scenario. Did you add something else to your I guess not client research, but the questionnaire that you sent out? Was that a part of it, to maybe try and get a bit more information, but not, I guess, break boundaries? Did that ever enter your thoughts?
Mary Vance:On my video questionnaire. My video questionnaire is is kind of long because it's driven to. A big part of what I make when I make a senior film is going to be about that interview and about actually pulling out. You know, like, the more like, the more nitty gritty the details, right, um, especially having the teenager be able to vocalize those details. So you know, with that I want them to kind of be nostalgic and reflect on the past and then I want them to be, you know, dreaming and project on the future. So that's a lot longer, that questionnaire is a lot longer.
Mary Vance:For photography I really didn't change very much, but I also, you know, again, you're putting in places in that client education. You know it's, it's expectation setting, right, and, um, I think, I think I might have added at one point under the it says tell me about your senior. Oh, no, I know, at the end, at the very end, I said, is there anything else that I need to know to make this a successful photos, photo session? And so again, you know, like, like, it's not required, most people just skip it. You know they're like oh, no, already, you know, saw this or whatever you know, or some. You know somebody might say, oh, he's got. You know football camp or whatever you know like, like, they might tell me a logistics, you know piece of information, or they might tell me something that's particularly important to the kid.
Matt Jacob:So yeah, interesting, and you mentioned video. Tell us a little bit about your video work and what that entails and and what type of videos you do oh, I love, I love.
Mary Vance:Well, I love creating lots of different videos, um, and wish I had the time to do a lot more of it, but, but, but, in terms of senior photography and working with teenagers, almost no one in my industry was doing videos the way that I was doing them Right. And so this is, you know, a lot of them would just be like really high quality footage and like awkward pans down the body, you know, and stuff like you know, like your girl laying in a field and now we've swept all the way across and we sweep through the grass, and I was like, okay, okay, but no, my films are about the teenager themselves, so there's an interview aspect that comes in with it, and so it's their life, in their own words, and sometimes we do that. You know, it's what I call a hybrid. So in one session I will both shoot stills and film video, and then or the other one is like a standalone session, and the standalone session requires a little bit more planning because we usually hop locations and do a little bit more to really get into you know who this kid is, but those are also.
Mary Vance:That's also a really high ticket, can be a really high ticket product right, because you put so much time and effort into it, and so it's kind of like a culmination, you know, film of like, okay, who are you, who are you as a person right now, and where you know where are you going Right, who have you been, where are you going, and um, and they're always honestly, just like tearjerkers. It's a, it's a milestone, you know moment, it's a celebration of a milestone moment. And so, as a mom who you know has has already launched one and the other one's right on the heels coming next year I'm like I want that, you know, I want to celebrate my kids in this, in this moment, in this season.
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Matt Jacob:Cool, and you talked about, I mean, putting a teenager in front of a camera for still photos is one thing. Putting them in front of a camera to do video is almost a leap in comfort that you have to kind of, you know, garner with with them. Do you find? I mean, how much of a, how much do you look inward in this process? I mean, I guess I could just ask you are you an introvert or an extrovert? And how? How would that part of you relate to how you go about, you know, relating to your subjects and and your process of doing video and photo?
Mary Vance:Yeah, I've called myself an introvert for a very, very long time because I don't love crowds, I don't love big rooms and in comparison to my sister, I would say, ok, if both of us walk into a room and there are 100 people in the room, I was like she will have ninety, nine of their business cards or have at least like shake it, you know, like like shook their hand or you know like chatted with them, just said hi, you know, or something within, within, and it's a superpower and you know, and I admire her for it, but I don't have that superpower. My superpower is, if I walk into that same room of a hundred, I might find two people that I'm going to have a conversation with and you know like probably offend, you know my Southern sensibilities, because I don't just talk about weather. You know I'm like I don't do small talk, Like I will actually be. You know talking, you know talking about real stuff and because I don't know small talk just doesn't do it for me. I'm not an introvert in that I don't want to.
Mary Vance:Just, you know like I'm not recharged by by, you know like staying at home and reading a book. Right, I, you know I have a, I have a kid who's very recharged by. You know, by that pull in right, I am actually recharged by connection. It just doesn't have to look like, you know, 10, 15, 20 people. Like just having connection with one person is actually really recharging for me, and so. So, even on a photo shoot, you know, when I just have one person in front of me, I like I come home and it's hours before I can even wind down. I'm like, so, you know, I'm like the. You know like the puppy.
Matt Jacob:At the end of the day I'm like, oh, let's go, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know that feeling. I think people can often conflate introversion with, um, not liking people or not being comfortable around people, and it's not the same. You can be an introvert but be very people-centric, which is it sounds like you are. I mean portrait photography. You know you've got to have good people skills and you've got to be enjoying that connection. It just doesn't mean that you, you know, like you said, go and enjoy, you know, being the center of attention in a large group of people. But it's interesting. How does that shape your creative approach? Being that type of introvert? I guess you base it a lot around just connection.
Mary Vance:Yeah, I do. There's a New York Times bestselling author. He's wrote, I don't know, probably eight to 10 books, something like that. He's written a lot of books, but what he writes about and what he researches right now is what he calls soundtracks, and these are the, you know, the stories that we tell ourselves over and over, the repetitive thoughts that we tell ourselves in our head, and and kind of how to break down some of the soundtracks that you may be, you know, have had before, right, like, oh, an introvert means this, an extrovert means this, right, and what I say instead, which is actually, you know, right to your point, and I heard this from one of his, just one of his videos at one point and I was like, oh, that's exactly what it is is my soundtrack is not I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert.
Mary Vance:My soundtrack is I'm built for people and and so what you know, like no-transcript, a support system, not having my family there, right, that can also be super lonely, and knowing the piece about myself of I'm built for people really helps me to engage with the client who's in front of me and see them. Each is a unique opportunity.
Matt Jacob:I think you touched on being lonely there. I think that's an important point for people to understand. Actually, the irony is it's very difficult for people to understand, even if you have a team around you, but it's your thing. No one really understands why you work the hours that you do to get the smallest thing right because they don't have the same, they don't have the same investment in it, right, emotional investment in it.
Matt Jacob:So, yeah, like a solopreneur is even photography generally, it's a very individual pursuit, right, it's you with that camera. Even if you have a team of other people around, it's still you with that camera, making those decisions in the frame or whatever you might be doing. So it can be very solitary and some people love that, right. But I kind of like you. I think you have to have a bit of both. I like to have my own space and my own creative thoughts with that camera, but I kind of need that connection as well. So it is interesting that you have that approach with business. Let's touch upon business a little bit. You've recently moved across country and I want to talk about that in a minute, how that's affected your business. But tell me a 30,000 feet view of your business and how you've created that over time. Tell me more about your, your business model, because I know it's not just about photographing seniors. Just give us a high level overview yeah, they um the.
Mary Vance:The piece that you'll see the most you know on my media um will be senior photography and videography. I also, um do fine art school portraits, so I photograph schools and several hundred kids every fall with it. I do branding stuff, I do brand videos right. So there's this whole photography pillar. Right, photography and videography is one of the pillars. Education is another pillar that I love.
Mary Vance:I have had my own like, like, do it at your own pace. I've, you know, I've sold courses and taught on. You know webinars and and podcasts and um speaking engagements and stuff like that. Um, you know these conferences and stuff and talk, workshops and retreats and things. So there's the education piece. So there's photography, there's education. And then the last kind of umbrella, the piece um, that I actually really love is the uh is the mentoring and coaching um kind of piece.
Mary Vance:Um, and that's kind of consulting on operations, systems, workflows to help photography, not just photographers, but a lot of creatives, cause we all are using the exact same tools. You know and and, but nobody taught us how to use those tools right, like we learned how to use our camera or we learned how to write, you know a beautiful essay or you know, whatever our creative endeavor is and you know none of it, like I didn't become a photographer so that I could, you know, I could figure out an email campaign sequence I'm not in this for web design or workflow optimization and stuff like that and so those are areas that I happen to have a decent amount of skill in and that I can also and and work with other photographers, other creative entrepreneurs who need some help streamlining things and so that, um, that kind of coaching, uh, consulting aspect. I always call that being a business mom, and so I'm like, you know, like, does your mom, does your business need a mom? You know, do they need somebody to come in and say like, okay, this is where this goes, this is where this goes?
Mary Vance:In corporate it would be called a COO, in entrepreneurial it would be called an integrator or sometimes like a really high level OBM, and so I do that and I take those clients at different points in time, and so there's kind of a coaching and consulting piece too. So those are my three umbrellas photography and videography, photography, education and then the consulting.
Matt Jacob:Cool. How do people find out about your I guess mentorship and coaching, and what structure does that take?
Mary Vance:It can take a couple of different structures. Sometimes I'm hired for, you know, like project-based um, okay, we need to. You know, um, like, bring on a whole new system or something like that. Uh, you know, I, I want to take my. I have an online course, you know, and I don't know what platform to use. I don't know how to, you know, actually get it out into the world.
Mary Vance:I don't know how to sell it, I don't know how to run ads, so it can be project-based and I'm not doing this as much anymore, but at one point it was also, you know, kind of like like a part-time position, you know, in in a job, and so I've had a couple of of people that I've gone in and worked with, you know, for six months, a year, two years, and you know just kind of keep running all of their systems and operations and kind of helping them optimize them. So it can look. It can look a lot of different ways, but I like it. It's actually it's very, very connected work for me and it's also very, very freeing for the, for whoever the creative is that I'm working for, because then they're actually free to be the visionary of their own business and of their own company and they've got somebody else who's worrying about the nitty gritty. That's kind of in the background, yeah.
Matt Jacob:And how is that business going to change, or is changing now? You've made that move from West Coast to East Coast.
Mary Vance:Yeah, so I'm not 100% certain that I have West Coast to East Coast, yeah, so, um, I'm not a hundred percent certain that I have all the answers for that one yet, but, um, but I will say I do have my, um, my youngest kiddo, who is, you know, who's still on the West Coast, and so I am, you know, I'm bouncing back and forth quite a lot and, and you know, so that we can spend time together and connect and um, and so, yeah, so I still have, I still have my, you know, I'm still licensed and have a business presence there on the West coast with that and um, and we'll see. Um, you know, we're kind of coming to the end of what the natural senior season is anyway. So I always say, like by November 1st I'm done, you know, with my photographing seniors, and so we'll see, kind of how the next months shake out, because I don't know, I might have a different, the season might be very different here too, so I might be able to do a little bit more, I don't know.
Matt Jacob:What is the, what is the next few years look like for you? I think just settling into North Carolina again and and not growing business from scratch, but getting getting that business locally up and running.
Mary Vance:Yeah, yeah, that could definitely be one of the one of the things that it looks like Um, I have other, I don't know. I have ideas and some things that are kind of um percolating back there, that uh't, you know that the idea that won't go away, kind of thing, so so we'll see. We'll see um kind of where that lands. Yeah, I don't have I don't have all the answers for that one yet, which is kind of exciting and just a tiny bit terrifying.
Matt Jacob:Yeah and the the teaching side of it interests me. I mean, I do a little bit myself and we. We talked about your mentorship and coaching, but when you say education, that's you working, you going into.
Mary Vance:Tell us a little bit more about the kind of in-person education side of it yeah, so there's a couple different, couple different ways that that can you know that can look. So, education, business wise, right, like, uh, the online courses, and so you know that can look. So education, business wise, right, like, uh, the online courses. And so you know, like, like uh, senior photography that teaches you about posing and stuff, or senior photography that teaches you about the backend and the business considerations, or, um, how to do video, or uh, you know, like, so I have the the courses. That's a kind of a static online, doesn't have to be in person thing.
Mary Vance:I love, love, love to go and speak at in person events and whether that is like a retreat, a workshop or or conference, those are so fun. The energy is just bonkers. I love it and I love attending. I love going and being able to speak. I love the connections that come out of it. Right, you know I have many dear friends now that I met years ago, you know, at a conference or a workshop or something like that, and you know we've kind of come up and come along in similar circles and stuff like that, and so that's what it looks like. You know, come to a class and you know, depending on what the, you know what the workshop or the conference has requested. We will either, you know, be cameras in hand. All right, let's go actually create the thing you know, or lecture you know in a hall, or a demo with a model, or you know any of those combinations, but it's always, always a dang good time, so it's fun.
Matt Jacob:Before we, um, before we wrap up, let's touch on gear quickly. Um, uh, if I'm right, you're a Nikon shooter. Tell us what, what gear that you have in your bag.
Mary Vance:I am, um, I'm a Nikon. Yeah, I've always, I've always been with Nikon Um currently. Yeah, I've always, I've always been with Nikon Um currently, uh, for just a regular senior photo shoot. I, uh, I wear a harness, um to double harness, and I have two Z7 IIs, um, on each. Uh, I have a Z7 II on each hip and then I don't have to change lenses or anything throughout, and so just that, much less that I have to fumble with. Um, yeah, I used to, I used to only use primes and now I only use zooms, so I have a 24 to 70 on one hip and then, uh, the 70 to 200 on the other hip and, um, it just really just lets me get like. I am not, I'm never inhibited by my, by the capabilities of my gear, especially with video, which is awesome. The, you know the, the way the auto tracking for video has come along is just it's beautiful. Yeah, I love that. I really do love that about my nikons. So, yeah, that's what I use well, it creates incredible work.
Matt Jacob:Um, what do you think the secret ingredient? If you were to put one, I think we've probably answered this question earlier on, but if there's a secret ingredient that kind of made your work either unique or very attractive and why people are drawn to you and your business, what do you think that secret ingredient would be? What do you think that secret ingredient would?
Mary Vance:be, it's gotta be. The people right Like because what is that? What is that? It's an Annie Leibovitz quote, right? What you see in my photos is that I wasn't afraid to fall in love and I'm butchering it, I'm sure, but you know that I wasn't afraid to fall in love with people who were in front of my lens and I feel like that's probably. That's probably what it is for people who look at my work too.
Matt Jacob:What a great answer. I love it. What, uh, thank you so much for being open and honest. Is there anything that that else, that maybe I haven't touched upon, that we want to discuss or that you want, you want to say or talk about?
Mary Vance:Gosh, not that I can, not that I can think of.
Matt Jacob:I'm like you did you did it wonderfully Well.
Mary Vance:I was like I talked about everything.
Matt Jacob:Cool, okay, well, as, as, as long as you've enjoyed it as much as I have. Thank you so much for joining me today and hopefully, if I'm ever in North Carolina or Seattle I think it was you were before I will see if you're around.
Mary Vance:Yeah, I'm a travel ninja, so you really just like pretty much. If you're anywhere in the US, there's a chance I'll be there, okay.
Matt Jacob:All right Well, until that day, and you know, I hope everything goes well for the new location and I continue to enjoy following your work. Thanks for joining me.
Mary Vance:Thank you so much.
