The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
Philosophy meets Creative Expression: Sean Tucker, EO70
Can understanding your struggles lead to better art?
Sean Tucker is a UK-based photographer, filmmaker, and author renowned for his philosophical approach to photography and creativity. With a journey spanning from pastoral work to professional photography, Sean has cultivated a unique perspective on art, fulfillment, and the pursuit of meaning.
His acclaimed YouTube channel inspires audiences worldwide, and his book The Meaning in the Making delves deeply into the psychology and philosophy of the creative process.
What we discuss:
- How his background in the ministry shaped his creative voice.
- Practical ways to find meaning in art and dealing with creative block.
- Cultivating a healthy mindset and managing online negativity.
- The importance of self-awareness and internal health for long-term creative growth.
- Sean’s thoughts on building a sustainable career as a photographer and artist.
- Insights into his book, The Meaning in the Making, and how it resonates with creatives navigating their own journeys.
Find Sean Tucker's work on his channels:
Website: www.seantucker.photography
Instagram: @seantuck
YouTube: @seantuck
Thank you to Luminar Neo for sponsoring this episode - get 25% discount on all their products here using the code MOODPODCAST25.
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Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation one frame at a time. I'm your host, matt Jacob, and thank you for joining me in today's conversation, and today we have Sean Tucker who joins us. He's a UK-based photographer and filmmaker known not only for his striking visual work, but also for his philosophical and introspective approach to creativity. With a journey that led him from pastoral work to photography, sean has dedicated his career to exploring the deeper meanings behind art and personal expression. His popular YouTube channel delves into this philosophy and psychology of creativity, inspiring a global audience to reflect on their own artistic journeys. Recently, he authored the Meaning in the Making, a book where he reflects on purpose, fulfillment and the pursuit of creativity.
Matt Jacob:In our conversation, we really explored the experiences that led him from the ministry to photography, how his past shaped his artistic voice and his ideas on creating meaningful work in a world dominated by social media algorithms. Sean shared insights on the concept of fulfillment versus success, ways to find meaning in art and his evolving vision for his YouTube channel. We also touched on handling negativity online, balancing visibility with solitude and staying true to one's creative voice. So, for anyone pursuing a career in photography or grappling with self-doubt, sean offers a wealth of wisdom and practical advice on building a sustainable, meaningful path in today's creative landscape. So please listen in and enjoy. I bring you Sean Tucker Sean Tucker, welcome. So much to the Moo Podcast. Thanks for joining me at early hours of your time.
Sean Tucker:No worries, thanks for having me.
Matt Jacob:I wanted to start. We have so much to talk about. I've been a fan of yours for a long time, so there's a few kind of self-interest questions. I want to ask questions, I want to ask, but I wanted to kick things off with a more of a high level approach and ask you a question that I think you've answered in in your book as well as many of your YouTube videos, but for the purposes of my audience, uh, how do you find meaning in art?
Sean Tucker:We start with the big one. Uh yeah, I mean I have talked about it a lot, so it is one that's always on the kind of tip of my tongue. This one. I think it became pretty important to me to like work out why I'm doing what I'm doing, I think at this stage in my journey. So I did some deep digging and I think I mean the quote that I use in the book is actually by a pastor in America, so it's a slightly the language is slightly religious, but he says that the place God calls you to is the place where your deep joy and the world's deep hunger meet. So he's got this idea that you take the thing that you love and then you point it at somewhere where you feel the world is hungry and try and make a dent in it.
Sean Tucker:So for me, the place that kind of I've identified, that I think I might be able to make a little dent with the things that I make, is this global pandemic of anxiety we have. It just seems everyone I talk to, or so many people I talk to, have some kind of battle with anxiety, and we've also over-calibrated it in our society now so that any feelings of anxiety we sort of talk about it, like we've all got disorders, we've forgotten Like anxiety on some level. It's a normal human emotion and it's okay, unless you have, like an actual disorder of some sort. And I think you know I've had family members, I've had partners who have battled with anxiety and mental health, and so you know, from early on I decided how, how can I take the thing I love doing, uh, like photography, or filmmaking, or writing or speaking, and how can I point that at this place that I feel like the world, um, is hungry or or a bit broken, and point that at this place that I feel like the world is hungry or a bit broken?
Sean Tucker:And so you know, with everything that I write, it's trying to help other artists get a handle on what they're doing and and to tone down that anxiety and say that it's okay, the journey's a long one and it's difficult, it's messy and that's that's fine, it's kind of the way it should be, it's you're not broken, it's fine. Or portrait photography, you know, helping people who sit down in front of the lens to get a portrait of them. That I feel is a really honest moment with them and then show them themselves almost in a different light, not the way that they see themselves or hold themselves in the mirror, but in a way that I feel like is more honest and actually, if they can see that and agree with that, maybe they'll see themselves in a different light and get some more self-love going. I mean, I think any portrait photographer will tell you like those sessions often turn into therapy sessions, you know, and you can actually have breakthroughs with people that come through that they actually like themselves more and leave the studio a bit lighter.
Sean Tucker:You know, and talking to people on YouTube and telling other people, you know, trying to talk through things like you know, creative envy or hitting creative block with your photography, or dealing with the dark times you go through, or finding a way to tell the truth with your work. You know all these things. I might be a photographer and photography is kind of the top shelf topic of my channel, but underneath that's what I'm doing and I think that's how I'm trying to build in meaning into the things I make. Beyond, you know, the photographs look nice, right, the aesthetics of it, or or or the the videos I make. People, people are complimentary about the editing or the color grading or whatever.
Matt Jacob:That's the technical, that's the kind of tool, but underneath, the meaning is trying to make a dent in that anxiety stuff I think every photographer should certainly have at their fingertips. I found this software not so long ago, actually, and if you're like me and always on the lookout for the perfect and most efficient photo editor that is easy to master and delivers great results, then you have to check them out. Luminar Neo is an innovative photo editing software designed for a fast and convenient workflow. Recognized with prestigious awards like Teepa and Red Dot Design. Luminar Neo offers an intuitive, user-friendly interface that makes it easy for anyone to enhance photos just like a pro. It's powered by AI yeah, stay with me and lean into it so you can easily adjust light colors, retouch portraits or enhance landscapes and just so much more with just a few clicks, from layers and masking to advanced local adjustments. It really is packed with powerful tools to bring your vision to life, and, in my opinion, the user interface is so much quicker, user-friendly and efficient than other softwares. And it also has a powerful built-in library of presets that can help you easily add a unique style to any of your photos. It's available for Windows, mac OS or as a plugin for Photoshop and Lightroom, and Luminar Neo is your go-to for quick, professional quality results across all of your images.
Matt Jacob:So go to the episode description, click on the link and use the code for a whopping 25% discount and pick up your copy of Luminar Neo today. Trust me, it's definitely going to be worth it. All right, see you later. So how do we even start as photographers to grow in that respect, other than watch a YouTube channel, of course. But where do we even start if we're? We're suffering from creative envy, imposter syndrome, creative block, depression, anxiety, any internal struggles we have, and we pick up a camera. What? What do we do? What's our first?
Sean Tucker:step, step. I think that when you start out in photography, it's important to say this because I think a lot of people come to my channel and go why the hell is he talking about this? Like this isn't a problem, why are we dealing with it? I just want to know what shutter speed to use. Do you know what I mean? And I get frustrated comments like oh, you're too serious, why are you talking about this deep stuff? And that's fine.
Sean Tucker:Like I think when you start out in photography you're meant to just get very excited about the camera you had and the techniques that you can use and that's kind of the first half of your journey and enjoy it. You should enjoy it. Don't rush to get to meaning. You know what I mean. There's time at the start of your journey for play, like just take photographs because you love taking them, and make a mess and learn some lessons and then take better ones and do that for years until you get bored of it. But I think there's like an inflection point that comes in. You'll know when you hit it where you've learned a lot of techniques probably too many, right, because we can't use them all. You've got the right camera in your hand. And now you're sitting there going like, well, I've got this thing, I've got techniques to use it, but I have no idea what to point to that or what to say with it.
Sean Tucker:And that's kind of when, I suppose that's kind of when your career demons start to surface. You know, you've kind of gone through that first time. It's very exciting, but you know too much. You get this sort of uh, you almost get a bit jaded and and like, well, what's the point in all this? When you're staying, what is the point in my photography, what is the point in my film? That that's the time, I think, where you have to start looking at your yourself and going, okay, I need to dig a bit deeper. That's the time when you have to start to work out what's the problems here outside of my technique. So what, what? What are my issues with imposter syndrome? How am I comparing myself to the wrong things? Or or, you know, with um, with uh, you know being jealous of other photographers who do the same thing I do, but they're getting more attention for it than I am like. Those things can really kill our creative journey.
Sean Tucker:I've seen too many people especially give up photography because they didn't get the response to their work they wanted on social media and they go. Well, I'm giving up then because the world doesn't like my stuff and I'm walking off in a huff like it's really time to grab a hold of the mental side of what you're doing at that point. And I guess for me, where I've learned all that stuff is because I'm really curious about the human mind and how we're driven and what inspires us and what, what holds us back. And I've always I've always kind of read a lot about psychology. That was my degree as well, so I've sort of kept up with that and I think curiosity about human beings in general, rather than the photography books for the techniques, reading around that stuff, watching films or videos online about that stuff is great, and then pushing yourself specifically to do that with yourself like to turn over your personality and work out how am I wired for good and bad and how can I get a handle on that One of my particular pitfalls.
Sean Tucker:So doing things like journaling, like I run retreats every year and we really push them to do Julia Cameron's morning pages. I don't know if you've heard of that, but so Julia Cameron has this idea that you wake up first thing in the morning. This is from a book called the Artist's Way and you sit down before you before you make a coffee or touch your phone or turn it on the TV or anything. You write three full A4 pages and it doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't have to be clever, but you just you just brain dump whatever you were thinking right. And as you do that every day, every morning, you're going to notice patterns that come up in your thinking and things that start to surface and you'll work out how you're wired and what you care about, what you're afraid of and what you're angry about and all those things.
Sean Tucker:And I think that self-knowledge is massive. At that point it's really important. You can't sidestep it. Doing things like going to therapy right, like I don't go to therapy just because, like something is going really wrong in my life, like there's a crisis thing, I'll go every few years just to say I it's almost like a tune-up with the mechanic, you know, like I want to tell you what I'm thinking at the moment. I want you to tell those other things that are kind of periphery to your photography specifically, that make you a healthier artist, with self-knowledge and kind of digging in. I think that's where it comes from.
Matt Jacob:In what way does knowing thyself help you become a better artist and take that next step If we're and I talk about this all the time with mindful photography and starting with yourself and understanding who you are and what you're good at, what you like and what you believe in and what your values are, etc. Etc. In order to find that voice and to take that next level in in artistry? What is it about that? That necessarily that health, that internal health that will allow someone to become a better artist.
Sean Tucker:Well, I mean it's two things. One is that mental health around what you do is going to mean you can keep doing it in the long term. It's very practical, you know. I mean we spend so much time trying to learn the techniques around our art form, but that's the camera Like this is where the art's going to come from. You need form, but that's the camera Like this is where the art's going to come from. You need to make sure that's super healthy, your mind is super healthy and it's robust, because challenges are going to come up. Because if you don't work on that, you're going to have the best camera in your hand but you're going to give up because you haven't got that mentality to keep going. So it's really practical on the one side. But got that mentality to keep going, so it's really practical on the one side. But the other side is like I really believe that the best art that any of us will ever make comes out of who we are.
Sean Tucker:So the things that I make that I think really connect with people have my flavor to it, right. So it comes out of how I'm wired. So I mean my YouTube channel, for example, right, it looks and sounds the way that it does, because I decided to make it the most me I could, right. So there's a lot of psychology in it because I studied psychology and that's what I read a lot of. So that comes out of it right. There's almost like a homiletic style, like a preaching style in some of those videos, because I was a preacher for 10 years, like that's where that comes from, as I worked for the church for 10 years in South Africa. So you know I've worked out who am I like.
Sean Tucker:What do I uniquely have to say in this space, rather than just doing straight ahead tutorials, for example? I could have done in fact I did start doing that when I first started my channel. I made three videos up front which were, um, how to shoot large products in the studio, and then the kind of retouching side and, you know, cut out on white background, drop shadows, changing fabric colors, that kind of thing, very technical, right. And I knew immediately when I posted those videos this is fine, you know it's getting views because it was filling a knowledge gap online, but I don't care about it and I was like I really, if I'm going to do this long term, I have to make it me and I have to care about it or I won't want to do it in a year's time. So I had to dig deep and go. Okay, that's fine, but what do I have to say? And that's why I think the fourth video those three videos, by the way were I think they were January 2015. And I didn't make another video until May 2016. Like a lot of people, you start a channel, you abandon it straight away Cause there's something wrong with this. It's not me, I won't. I won't enjoy doing this long-term. And then, may 2016,.
Sean Tucker:I went to Snowdonia in Wales and I made a video where, you know, I was a product photographer at that time and I knew nothing about landscape photography, right, I just decided that I would make a little video taking myself off to Wales because I was falling out of love with the camera in my hand in my day job with product photography because it was so technical.
Sean Tucker:I was going to try landscape photography and if I messed it up, it was fine, but it was just to get back to being a beginner with this thing and finding that early love for photography. So it was a very honest video, sharing my story and sharing, you know, that experience and sharing some bad images, right, because I'm not that's not my strong suit at all and that connected with people and the way that I put that video together, I was like, yeah, the way I'm telling this story feels like something I used to do, that I used to love. That feels like me and then I could put that flavor into it. So for me, all that self-knowledge stuff, it has those two functions. It's the longevity thing, because it gives you a more robust mental health, but also it gives you your message, right, because it will give you what you uniquely have to say, all that self-knowledge and understanding that you get your message out, rather than kind of a weak copy of what you think is popular out there. It's your message.
Matt Jacob:In your experience, then, and with your audience of over half a million, certainly on YouTube and many more that necessarily don't subscribe to you on YouTube, is this something that certainly the internal struggles, the internal health, is this something that you want to persuade more photographers to prioritize or are you kind of comfortable in the fact that, okay, some you know, generally speaking certainly my experience, generally speaking more photographers enjoy the technical out of those types of videos about photoshop and technical stuff than they do about conversations, debates, looking, looking inward health of the internalities as much as just technical competencies, right, so is that something that you try and strive to persuade or are you more comfortable in the fact that, okay, you know, less people may be interested in this, but because I'm comfortable and I enjoy it, I'm okay with that.
Sean Tucker:Yeah, I mean, I know how my channel works at this point. You know, I know what the different sections are doing. So I have tutorials on my channel. I have, you know, a lot of them and that's fine, and I'm very happy to just give technical information for photographers who want to come in, watch a video, get the tip they need and leave. And that's that's most people, right, that's most people who do that.
Sean Tucker:So my most watched video on my channel is like over one and a half million and it's just how to shoot a portrait with a single speed light, right, super beginner friendly. It's how do I just take a cheap speed light, cause that's what most people can afford. How can I get good results in portrait photography? Just one speed light, right, right. But the videos that I care about get way less views. Where I'm sitting sort of pontificating on a couch for 15 minutes like about some something, some psychological thing, that really helped me way less views. But I I'm fine with all that because I know what happens is people will come and they'll get the tips and I've got different playlists right. So I have a portrait photography playlist, a street photography playlist and an editing playlist, and then I I've got the featured photography playlist, which is like me going around making documentaries about other photographers, and then I have my philosophical playlist, which is kind of me talking about that kind of deeper, more esoteric stuff, I suppose. So I'm fine to serve beginners who want the tips and tricks with videos that help them out, because that's how learned I taught myself online. I'm very happy to give back in that way, but I know that some people will click something different while they're there and they'll find something deeper and they needed to hear that more than they needed to hear the shutter speed there. You know what I mean or what aperture to use, and they'll go okay that that hit me in a different way. That hit me in a like wow, I feel comforted from that, rather than just I got a tip and they'll hang around for this. I get the same comment.
Sean Tucker:A lot of my channel came for the tips. Stay for the philosophy is a lot what a lot of people will say. So I know how it works and and I don't I don't try and push that other stuff on people Like I know a beginner doesn't need me talking about finding meaning in your photography. That's not helpful to them at that point. That's not where they're at. So I'm not trying to say everyone needs to think that stuff's important, but when you're ready for it, it's there for you, and the most meaningful emails I get from people are the ones who connected with those videos and they'll give me their life story and say how you know.
Sean Tucker:This really hit me at the right moment, thank you. That rescued me from something far more important than teaching me how to use a speed light. So I know that there's a. There's a funnel that comes in with everyone who comes in for those beginners and the tips, and it gets whittled down to people who are further along in the journey right, the intermediates who are hitting that midpoint in their journey where the crisis is kicking in and they don't know what they're doing with all these techniques that they've got, and then they'll dig in deep on those and that really makes a meaningful difference. But the majority of youtube or the internet in general, is going to be beginners learning. So you know, I'm fine with the fact that it's a big group of beginners for that stuff and that smaller group, which I consider my core audience, which have gone a bit further down the road.
Matt Jacob:They're going to dig in on the yeah, yeah, it yeah it's a good way of talking about it, depending on really what part of the journey they're on right, rather than this person or that person. It's just where do you find this channel on your journey? That's kind of a good way of thinking about it. Let's hover over YouTube a little bit. When did you realize YouTube was going to be your thing and certainly a big part of a core part of your, your model and and success?
Sean Tucker:um, I mean initially, when I started it, I thought you know it would, just because I had a full-time day job. Then you know, and it's uh, I I was just thinking I'll make one video a month, which is still what I do, only one video a month. Um, because I've got a full-time job, let me just do one a month and just see what happens. I can let it tick over as I go, and it's not trying to, it wasn't trying to be famous or anything like that. It really started with scratching an itch for me because I missed being able to speak to people, which is what I used to do with youth and young adults in the church and try and inspire people to get a handle on their lives, and I thought, wow, I wonder if there's a way that I can do that with photography and creativity as the topic. So it was more for me as an outlet. I was really missing that and I was quite surprised that it started to take off. I thought I would have been happier just to let it tick over on the side, but then I realized there was a bit of traction to it and there was specific feedback that was coming in. That said, I might be onto something that people were responding to. And then it took, I would say, a good two and a half years before I took the leap and left, because I actually had that job.
Sean Tucker:And then I changed to another job. I went to work for an American consultancy firm heading up their photography and video for 18 months and it was kind of that job I wasn't enjoying for a number of reasons and I was planning on leaving and I was sort of thinking about trying to think strategically. Could YouTube and the other things I to think strategically? Could YouTube and the other things I do around it? Could they bear the weight of my kind of bills? And at the beginning of that job, definitely not. But I decided to build things and work out what could I be doing on the side of that. So you know, selling a book of photography every year and doing some workshops and talks and those kinds of things, and in the mix of all those things, could, could I move over and pay the bills with with that in the aggregate and work for myself? And you know I wasn't. I was terrified doing it.
Sean Tucker:I read I wasn't convinced it would, um, and I had backup plans, you know, because there was no guarantees, but, yeah, it worked out. And then, um, I think from it's always the dream, right? I think it's why people get on there, because we all have the dream of being able to just work for ourselves, making the work that we really care about, and I I'm very aware how lucky I am. There's no, if I started today, it wouldn't happen, because YouTube's a very different beast. Um, I think it'd be much harder today. So starting when I did was definitely helpful. Um, the way that things connected. So starting when I did was definitely helpful. The way that things connected. There's no guarantee of that.
Sean Tucker:I got lucky and then I was just able to kind of slowly tweak over time and work out you know what connects. What's the mix of tutorials versus the other videos that I do? How can I? How can I just keep it ticking over? And, yeah, what am I like seven years later now? And it's, yeah, it's still. It's still kind of doing its thing. It needs tweaks all the time and things change a lot and it's a lot harder now. It definitely is a lot less lucrative than it used to be, but it's. I'm still sort of managing to keep head above water, so it's good why?
Matt Jacob:why would you say that it were? If you started today, it would be a lot harder. I mean, I started this, uh, I guess several, 18 months ago and and I found it extremely difficult. Obviously, I'm still very new into it in the grand scheme of things, but yeah, I understand it is very difficult, but I don't have that comparison of what it was five, six, seven years ago. What is the difference?
Sean Tucker:And this is from talking to friends of mine as well who do the same thing and started about the same time as me. I think we've all that uh, the traction we used to get on videos that we posted, uh, seven, six, seven, eight years ago, was far more. There was a turning point about three years ago. Something happened in that algorithm. We can all point to almost the date where it happened. Um, you know, because they don't tell us, we just pick it up and what happens that? That our videos were not even being seen by our own subscribers anymore. Um, so there's a great talk by a guy named jack conti who is the uh ceo of patreon, um, and he did it at south, by southwest I think last year, and the talk is called the death of the follower and he talks about the changes that have happened in, in, in how uh the internet is structured with all these social media companies. So he says, you know, there was a first generation, which came through sort of early 2000s, where you know it was just this Web 2.0 stuff where you were able to share things and people were able to comment and feedback. That was first generation, but then, slowly, a lot of these places gave us follow and subscribe buttons, right. So this was the golden age. This was kind of the tail end of when I started, where you were encouraged to build a following around your work, and so you know, people would hit subscribe and then they would have a feed and down that feed would come the things that you'd subscribe to, right, that's what you'd see, and so that was that golden age and I think I got into the tail end of that gold age. It was already starting to change. So you were able to build a following because they honored those subscribe and follow buttons and they showed your audience your work because they said they wanted to see it. But with TikTok coming out, it changed and because TikTok isn't about that, it's about what are you interested in today?
Sean Tucker:Right now, regardless of what you follow, you can hit follow buttons, but we're going to. If you search cars or you search like like you're looking at Ford Escorts from the 80s, right, it doesn't matter what you subscribe to, your feed is going to be filled with the last thing you search. It's very short term attention span, and so that follow button, subscribe button, means a lot less than it used to. So they now don't honor that follow or subscribe button. It used to be, oh, you have to hit subscribe and a bell, then we'll show you stuff. But now that doesn't even work. So so many people will say to me, like, oh well, I follow you on Instagram and I don't see your images, or I follow your videos, but they don't come up in my feed. That's why you have to. Actually, unless you've been watching a couple of my videos that day or that week at least, my new video won't come up. And so starting now is much, much harder, because that subscriber building, that following, means a lot less than it used to, and to get traction with that is a lot harder. It's almost like every new video. You have to get traction with things that people are actually searching, and I'm not really willing to play that game because I would make videos that I think are popular rather than things I think are important. So I think for that reason, you're starting at a much harder time and the growth that you're seeing is much more to be celebrated than growth I had. You can't compare yourself to bigger channels that started back then and feel bad about yourself because you're comparing yourself to the wrong thing. So, yeah, I think it's just the way that it is.
Sean Tucker:These are big companies and they don't work for us. They don't actually care about us. If my YouTube channel goes away tomorrow, if I close it down, youtube aren't going to get on the phone and go oh, we see, you left. They don't care at all. Like if I disappear, it means nothing to them. So all they care about is selling advertising space on the things that we post there, and the way they think to do that is the TikTok model, the short-term attention span. What's this person looking at today? And if my videos don't fit that, they'll show them other videos that they think they'll watch and spend more time on and throw lots of ads on it. That's their model and there's nothing we can do about it. If we want to use these platforms, we don't pay for them. You know I don't pay to use YouTube, to post videos on there. It's completely free. It's their platforms, their company. That's the way it goes.
Sean Tucker:I have to accept it thoughts on how that societal shift, or at least digital societal shift, has impacted and changed photography as a whole um, in good and bad ways, right, I mean, I think, like I'm not somebody who, who looks down on social media, you know, I think, on the one hand, we've got this gift in the, which, which, you know, artists in history would have given an arm and a leg for that. They could have posted work they made and it potentially be seen by somebody on the other side of the planet in seconds is amazing. We get that right. So it is a gift in that way. But I think you've got to. You've got to, on the one hand, you've got to resist the temptation to make weak copies of the popular right to try and get traction around your work. Um, and that that is a is a temptation that's too strong for most artists. You know, um, but if you do that, you sacrifice your chance of finding your voice visual voice, you know and making the images that you really believe in that you want people to see. Um, because you're too busy trying to work out what the algorithm wants you to post and you're posting that and actually it's just the weak version of what everyone else is already doing. So that's a danger that you're not being experimental and playful enough and trying to find what you're here to do. I think that, mental health wise, like I said, I think assuming that the, the the response you get in terms of followers or likes that you get on an image or number of comments means is like some kind of talent score, is, is, is poison. You can't. You can't play that game like the suit. The sooner you get that stuff out of your head, the better like.
Sean Tucker:Just because you get loads of likes on an image does not mean it's great. Just because you don't get a lot does not mean it's rubbish. Right, like I have. I have here's how ridiculous this is. I have a bigger following on my Instagram account than some magnum photographers. Like that's. That's stupid, right, because I am a middling photographer at best. Right, I'm fairly competent. I can do a lot of different genres of photography and my photography is good. It's not bad. I don't think um, but it's not great. It's not great at all. I've got a long, long way to go in a lot of ways and those are great. Some of the best photographers in the world, and I have a larger following online than them, which tells you everything you need to know.
Sean Tucker:The number of followers or likes around an image does not mean the work is good, right, I mean in the book I sort of talk about. You know, if you want a big Instagram following, get naked or get a puppy. That's how you get lots of followers and likes on images. But it doesn't mean you suddenly became a great photographer. We know that's how it works. So stop thinking that followers or likes on images makes you a better or worse photographer.
Sean Tucker:Put the score out of your head. I hide likes on all my images because I don't want people to focus on that. Just look at the image. That's one of the important things. Just tune the rest out. It's not important. The sooner you can get that into your head, the better. Because I've had friends who are talented photographers who gave up because they didn can get that into your head, the better. Because I've I've had friends who are talented photographers who gave up because they didn't get that response to their work and that to me, is a tragedy, because it the score wasn't telling them what they thought it was and they couldn't get the mentality around it in their head. It really crushed their spirit. Like. The earlier you can get that through your head, the the better.
Matt Jacob:Is that because they didn't know where else to go to receive critique or receive validation, or they just believed in those platforms being the panacea for their potential success?
Sean Tucker:I think it's both, isn't it? I think we get this idea that we're going to get on social media and it's going to give us fame and fortune, and I think that works for a very, very few people. And it's going to give us fame and fortune, and I think that works for a very, very few people and it's not really in your control. It's a lot of luck and a lot of timing, a lot of everything else, and we get disappointed because it doesn't give us that.
Sean Tucker:Yeah, I think we all want validation for what we make, and I don't even think there's anything wrong with that. I think in a way, we do make things because we want other people to appreciate them. That's when we feel like art's completely did cycle Someone else appreciates something we made. But I think if we think that anonymous people on the internet are actually there to tell us whether we're good or bad or to validate us, we're making a mistake, because most of them are on there to try and leave a comment because someone told them if you leave lots of comments on other people's accounts, they'll come to yours. It's a strategy for them too.
Sean Tucker:Everyone's usually only thinking about themselves, and if you really care about getting feedback on your work, like I have, I have eight friends who I care about their opinion and I don't care about anybody else's. That sounds. That sounds harsh, but I have to have that mentality, and I mean that for positive and negative. Like I tune out a lot of the positive stuff as well. I don't take it seriously, because I could get a big head or I could get crushed on any given day because of a comment someone leaves that I'll never meet.
Sean Tucker:I don't know who they are, right. I don't know if they know what they're talking about. I have no idea, right, usually because a lot of the stuff is anonymous. So I have those handful of friends who I know they know what they're talking about. I know they care about me and my journey and I know they will tell me what I need to hear good or bad. That's where I get my feedback from. That's where I get my gauge on how well I'm doing as a photographer or filmmaker or writer or anything else. Everything else I tune out. It can't direct my journey because I have too little information about where it's coming from. Right, and I think that's you're right. A lot of people do get spun up about it because they want the validation, but I think it's a dangerous place to go for validation and interact with these, and they are playing the game as well, exactly like you said.
Matt Jacob:And if it's not humans, then there's bots, and then there's agencies and there's just all this smoke and mirrors. You don't really see through anything, but you understand that this is just a big game and, at the end of the day, if you can understand that any of these platforms are just tools, some tools better than others for what you want to do, then how liberating is that right? And, like you said, you know, go to your friends and people who really value their opinion, like actual people. Is is the best way, but would you, would you recommend that to, let's say, maybe not a beginner photographer, but maybe an intermediate photographer who's now watching your more esoteric videos and has got that kind of technical competencies nailed and now trying to like, really step up and create art? Where did, where would you suggest they go to? You know, get advice, get feedback. Is this a good photo? Is this a bad photo? It's a good series? Is this a good story I want to tell, etc. Etc. Where do we seek that if it's not social media?
Sean Tucker:uh, I reckon it's probably three. I would say three things. One, it is that group of close, creative friends that you trust. Build those. You can build those online. Some people live in quite remote spots and they're not going to find them around the corner. You can build those online, but build it with people you really get to know and you know what they have to offer and you know that they know what they're talking about.
Sean Tucker:I reckon finding a mentor is big, like that one person who you're asking who's further down the road than you that you're going to, and you're asking, hey, can you give me your time? And work on a trade system is what I would suggest. Don't just go to somebody and go hey, I want you to tell me if I'm good or bad and help me get better. Hey, I want you to tell me if I'm good or bad and help me get better, because you're just taking from them. Then Work out a way you can give back as well. So go up to somebody you respect and say listen, I'd really like somebody to help me with my journey a little bit, giving me some feedback and maybe some things to work on and some advice. Can I help you by keywording your Lightroom catalog. Can I give you my time back to something practical that you might need, or can I come and assist you on shoots where you need. I'm not asking for payment or anything, but I'll be your voice, activated light stand all day. You know that kind of thing Like what do you need from me and how can we trade here?
Sean Tucker:I think that's a good thing to do as well and then book yourself a professional critique with somebody.
Sean Tucker:So there are lots of photographers out there who will do critique sessions and I would say be careful with that.
Sean Tucker:It's a great thing to do, but be careful that you're going to somebody whose style fits a little with yours, because what you'll do if you find someone too far away from yours? They could direct you towards their style. Like a lot of photographers don't have a lot of self-awareness about when they're giving their opinions about work they see in front of them, they're giving their very subjective opinions based on what their preferences are rather than what good photography is. So either try and find somebody you can go to who you feel gives good advice, um based on where your photography's at, where it could go, even if it's very different from theirs, or find, or find someone to go for a professional critique with who you feel it's a similar style you're aiming for and they can specifically help? Um, I think yeah. So those three things your, your close creative friends, that mentor or professional critique a good, a far more solid places to go to get ideas about where you're at.
Matt Jacob:So tell me about, then, your thoughts and definition on on good photography. I mean, I have this discussion quite a few times with many people, even non-photographers right and I get a lot of pushback like, well, art is subjective, photography is subjective, it's in the eye of the beholder, and I push back oh well, there is such a thing as good and bad photography. It's up to us to just maybe discern that difference. Am I right in thinking that, and what do you think?
Sean Tucker:yeah. So it's a hard one because you sound judgmental straight away, don't you like whatever you say. So I think I'm I'm not trying to decide who's good or bad. I don't, I don't really get into that, um, but what I, what I, what I I think a better definition than good art or bad art is is about how much intention is in your work, right?
Sean Tucker:So, for example, you can see work that you go I I it's messy, and I think I would suggest sometimes we think that because we can tell that the artist doesn't have a lot of control of their work, you can see that actually it's more mistakes that they're claiming as art, post-rationalizing it right. We can feel that. That to me I would say you've got some work to do, but I could see art that's equally visually messy, but I can tell there's control in it and the artist is doing that on purpose. That, to me, is the difference between good and bad. Something might not be my taste because it's like, because I'm quite a like. I mean my photography is fairly clean and straight laced.
Sean Tucker:So when I see kind of very abstract, kind of grungy photography, it's not really my taste, it's not the stuff I gravitate toward, but I can still appreciate that it's good, because when I look through a body of work that an artist has got, I can see, oh no, this is on purpose. And I can see that they have control within what they're doing here. So I think it's good, even though it's not my taste. But again, I could go to somebody else's work and say, wow, this is equally as messy. But I can tell they're doing this with no control and they're claiming it's art. That's the difference to me. I think it's about intent in their work. Is this on purpose or is this? You're out of control and claiming it's art?
Matt Jacob:I think that's the difference. Yeah, very well said. Tent with everything when it comes to I don't know, before we move on. My last kind of question about YouTube tell me about. You mentioned some hateful comments you might get. You must get a lot. I'm sure you don't notice them, but tell me about that. And because I struggle with that, I don't. I just get a few comments opposed, but some not so nice, and it's difficult to. It's difficult to ignore that, or it's difficult to not try and find some truth in it, if, if you're humble enough and you have some humility, but how do you, how do you approach that? And you know some humility, but how do you approach that? And maybe give us an anecdote of one of the worst comments that you've had on YouTube posts?
Sean Tucker:So I've had a bit of a journey with this one because at the start I mean for the first year on YouTube no one cares, right? Usually that's what happens If you look at the metrics. By the way, just a little aside, if you had at the metrics, by the way, just a little aside, have you heard of Social Blade? It's an interesting tool to go and see. You can plug in anyone's YouTube or Instagram and you can kind of see the growth over time. It's interesting to go see the graphs. Usually the first year you don't see any traction and I think that's because YouTube is waiting to see if you're going to stick around, right? So if you post consistently for a year, something seems to click. At a year it was certainly used to. Okay, they're sticking around and they're consistent. Now we can push their videos more because we can get ads on them, because they're going to stick around, because so many people start channels and abandon. They're not going to put lots of ads on those and promote them because you're not going to be here in a few months, because you're not going to be here in a few months. But after that year clicks in and it starts to push them. That second year where things start to lift. That's when the most trolls come around. So you're in the thick of it right now, I would guess, and that's normal and it's a good sign because it means that people recognize that attraction and jealous people will come and try and rip it down. So it is a good sign. That's the thing to start with is, it's hurtful, but it means it's going somewhere.
Sean Tucker:I, in that stage, I did it wrong. I kicked off at people. I went back at people. You know I wasn't like, but I, I, I definitely. You know, I'm not intimidated by a bit of conflict on online and I was happy to go back at people and have arguments with them and I did that for about a year. I would go, in fact. In fact, I had um, especially on Instagram, for some reason. I mean my, my friend, josh uh, he's a street photographer, joshua Jackson. He used to say, like you're really sweet on your YouTube videos, but I'm not sure who the guy is in your Instagram comments and he named him Sassy Sean. That was his name. So I think, yeah, I just did it wrong. I just pushed back. I didn't like who is this person who's coming here and telling me my work is rubbish, you know, is rubbish, you know.
Sean Tucker:And then there was a day where I just had a realization I was going back with somebody on a particular image that they'd kicked off about. It was some it was a woman who was who was just really angry, and it was it's rare, it's very, very rare. It's a woman. It's usually a man on Instagram, but in this case it just happened to be a woman and she, she was saying, um, it was a particular image I take. She's like why are you posting this junk? I could take better images out of my bedroom window and not even have to leave the house, something like that. And she was, she was a long thing where she was going at me. She was really going at me, um, and I I was like, yeah, well, like, uh, you know, show me, like, go take, go take a picture of your bedroom window. I can't wait to see. I like good photography, and I was.
Sean Tucker:I was going backwards and forwards with a you know being a bit snarky about stuff, and then I suddenly thought who am I talking to? Like I don't know who I'm talking to, and it made me realize like this might be, it might be a 15 year old, right, who is at home, um, struggling with mental illness maybe, I don't know and and have abusive parents and is really angry about life and they're trying to get somewhere and they're venting that anger at somebody like me because they don't know what else to do. Right, and I am potentially intellectually bullying this person because it's it's easy, like I'm fairly secure in what I'm doing. I'm talking on my channel with a big audience that's going to jump in and support me, right, I'm kind of being an ass and it was suddenly very, very clear and it was kind of an inflection point for me in that journey going, I can't take people kicking off at me seriously. I don't know what their situation is.
Sean Tucker:That kind of anger never comes from a happy, healthy person. They're going through something and if I kick off at them on my own channel because I can, I'm not actually I'm not a human being I'm proud of at that point, right, and so, rather than thinking of myself as a victim, like somebody came through and they said a mean thing to me and now I need to fight them. And you know, I've never, ever, for example, done a talk. I do a lot of talks around. I've never had a live troll, right. I've never had someone stand up at the q a at the end and say something like that live. It's only people who are scared and angry at home doing it anonymously, and that doesn't deserve my anger back. That deserves genuine pity. Like they're going through something and it must be very hard for them.
Sean Tucker:And the minute I switched from victim to actually, I could potentially be a perpetrator here and I need to be careful because this person is struggling with something. It kind of flipped it all around for me. So now I'm very liberal with the use of the hide user from channel button or the restrict user. I don't know if you're familiar with this. So on YouTube, if someone leaves a comment that you're like, well, this is rude or out of line. And the trick for that, by the way, is would you come and knock on my door of my house and say that to my face? Would I keep the door open or would I go not today and would I close the door, because if I close the door, I don't have to put up with it online either. Right, there's no rule that says I have to put up with rude abuse just because it's the internet. So if it doesn't pass that test, if you're not going to be polite, I just click the hide user from channel button.
Sean Tucker:They can still see the comment they posted, but nobody else can. That's how that works. Same thing on Instagram. If someone leaves a comment like that, then you have the restrict user. So if they're just being rude and trolly, I can just go restrict user. They can still see their comment there. I can see it, but nobody else can, because the reason they're usually posting it is to cause some drama, to get some attention. So people will click and go and check their work which really works, by the way.
Sean Tucker:So you can't give it oxygen and the way to do that is just use those buttons to just hide it, just let it sit there. But they can see it, I can see it. So I've got the message. If you're trying to tell me I've got the message but you're not going to get, you're not going to get. You're not going to use my platform to fill it with negativity to get attention for yourself. I'm not going to do that because I want a space that's constructive and it's not to say that I don't like negative feedback, but I know the difference, like. Some of the best comments I've had have been people who disagree with me or not like something I've done, but they've done it respectfully and they've done it intelligently. I'll have those all day. Those will sit there forever. I like those, but not the rude stuff. I've got no time for it and that gets hidden.
Matt Jacob:Difficult balances in it between constructive criticism or spotting or noticing constructive criticism, where we want to avoid things like echo chambers, where we're just in our own little bubble and getting affirmations all the time, and to having a meaningful debate or conversation and hopefully something good comes out of that for either party, and then comparing that to just hate speech. Essentially it's I think you knew even even the part that you or me or the person that has a channel we go through a process of learning to spot those and that can be a difficult process, I think.
Sean Tucker:I think we know, though, like, I think we know, like, and use that test. For example, if someone knocked on your door of your house, right, you went down and they said to you listen, man, I think what you do is rubbish, I think it's a load of junk, like, why are you even bothering? Like you're going to close the door. But if someone knocks on your door and goes, listen, you know, I was listening to your podcast and and I've, I've, I've just got some thoughts, if that's okay, like, you know, I, I, you know, I don't know everything, but a also some constructive thing in there.
Matt Jacob:We can feel the difference and we can definitely give you giving me feedback on the podcast.
Sean Tucker:Yeah, yeah, yeah very coded, yeah, um you know there's a lot you can feel like it's somebody who you can feel knows what they're talking about and they're being honest with you. But they're being humble and and then they're not coming from the point of view like you should definitely listen to me. They're acknowledging you don't have to. That makes a big difference and you can tell them the way they're doing it. They actually want you to get better. That's a big sign, like they're telling you because they want you to improve, because they're invested in you. Like that negative, negative feedback. That's actually really you know you did, they're your biggest fan because they're with you and they they want to see you get better. They might be wrong and you don't have to listen to what they say, but it might have taken them courage to say that you, that there's a flavor. I think that you can. You can pick up and you get better at noticing it as you go yeah, and that can be applied to photography as well as youtube videos.
Matt Jacob:right? Everything, just daily life. Yeah, speaking of daily life, let's rewind a little bit Tell us we haven't touched upon your beginnings into photography, but you're fascinating and almost complex upbringing in different countries and your journey all the way up through to the man you are today. So give us a quick overview of your background and your introduction into filmmaking and photography.
Sean Tucker:Yeah, so the quick version is I was born in the UK and then my mom, my dad and I moved over to Zimbabwe, in Southern Africa. My dad worked for a company there building factories in Harare, and then my parents got divorced. When I was about three and a half, four years old, something like that, and at the time my brother had been born as well, so he was six months old at the time. I was four years old. My mom brought us back to the UK. We lived just near bar for about three years, which was a really tough time, really difficult, you know, sort of single parent mom who was broken because my dad had left her for another woman. So we were kind of on the out, um, and then my mom just really missed Africa. She'd fallen in love with Africa and Zimbabwe and she decided she wanted to take us back. So, uh, I would have been about seven, I guess and she took us to Botswana in Southern Africa where we lived in a little tiny mining town called Salibi Pikwi, and there we were there for a couple of years and she met the local Barclays bank manager and they got married. Um, and we came back to the UK for a year and then because of his job, uh, being this expat bank manager, we'd bounce around different African countries for three or four years at a time because you get these postings. So he was then sent to Lesotho in Southern Africa. We lived in the capital city there, missouri, which is a small town really. It was at the time and during that time there were no good schools in Lesotho. Really at the time it was a very small country.
Sean Tucker:I was sent back to the UK, so that would have been about nine, 10, 11, 12 years old. I was sent to boarding school in the UK while my family were living in Southern Africa, so I would see them three times a year. So I grew up really fast. I think it was a really difficult patch because my stepdad he wasn't a bad man but he just wanted nothing to do with kids really. So these two sort of tag-ons from a previous marriage he let it be known like I'm not your dad. My, my, my half-sister was coming along and he says like I'm her dad but I'm not your father. So it was just feeling super rootless, like being sent away to boarding school at that young age, feeling like I didn't really have a family, I was being abandoned by my own family. I think I had a few proper crisis years as a kid and grew up very fast Like I would.
Sean Tucker:When I was flying backwards and forwards I'd fly on my own, you know, as a nine, 10 year old. So I got so independent that you used to be assigned with an air hostess like uh, who would sort of take you through the airports and you used to have a sticker on you but just saying young flyer, that would say identify you with somebody that needed to be taken care of through the airport. And, um, as as as time went on, I on, I'm like I don't, I don't need your help, I would, I would, I would run away from them, throw the sticker in the bin so I could take my my own way through the airport because I know he's right, I don't need your help. You know what I mean. Like this little kid I still have my like garfield teddy with me, but like I don't need your help, kind of thing. So I became this super little independent child and very isolated because they're quite, very introverted and very sort of to myself.
Sean Tucker:And then they moved to Swaziland, my family, and then I started going to schooling in South Africa for high school and then, coming out of high school, I did a year with a music and drama group traveling around Southern Africa that was linked to the church, which kind of started this move towards the church for me and I kind of found a community with the church as well. So, coming out of that group, I went to university and I studied psychology for three years. I got my degree in psychology but was starting to work for the church on the side and then I eventually went to study at seminary after that and then I got another degree in theology so I could get ordained and I got ordained. So there are about 10 years where I was working for the church in South Africa, mostly with youth, young adult, music ministry and poverty outreach. Those were kind of my things. I was never like the senior pastor in a church but I was doing all that stuff and did eventually get ordained.
Sean Tucker:But very, very early on, when I was at seminary, things started to come unraveled. You know, I started to see the holes in what I was being told or what I believed, you know. And that's a real crisis point because not only does your faith start to unravel, but your job's in jeopardy because you need to buy this stuff, you know. So all that was a crisis as well, where I was like it was all starting to fall apart and eventually I was. I was fired from a couple of churches for kind of being a liberal heretic who was saying things that didn't fit the mold, um, and pushing back on, especially on the church's use of money and how I didn't feel like they were taking care of the poor in our society. They were building themselves bigger buildings and sound systems and big screens and stuff, and my job was the poverty outreach stuff or part of it. So I was, I was basically a kind of thorn in their side and was eventually ousted, which I was fine with, and that was I was.
Sean Tucker:I just turned 30 then. So I had this point where I was like what do I do now? Like I have to start again from scratch. You know, I've dug 10 years of my life into training for this and doing this and getting good at this, and I've got to start from scratch. And that's when it was a friend of mine who said to me well, you might as well pick something you love doing if you're going to have to start again. And then it was. I wonder if, because I'd already been doing some photography and especially video work on the side of church for it to kind of subsidize my income, I wonder if I could make photography the thing that pays the bills.
Sean Tucker:And then it was three years at least of waiting tables because my freelance photography stuff wasn't working. No one wanted to hire me and I wasn't very good yet I still had a lot to learn. So I waited tables and tried to get better at photography on the side and tried to get work coming in. And that was really humbling, because the restaurant that I worked at was just down the road, not far down the road from the last church I worked for that I'd been fired from. So I went from standing on the stage in that church talking on Sundays with everyone listening and giving compliments oh thank you so much for that to waiting tables at that restaurant where some of them would come in and I'd have to serve them at the tables there and then get out of their way so they could carry on with the conversations because I'm their waiter. Like it was a huge ego knock for me and probably one that I needed, because I think I was getting a bit full of myself, um, and and I think that really kind of humbled me and put me in a different place where I thought, whatever I build next, I'm going to be grateful. I'm never going to take it for granted again, whatever I managed to build next.
Sean Tucker:And so then it was a long journey. I eventually got my first full-time job in Cape Town as the in-house product photographer and video person for a company called Yuppie Chef, which sold fancy kitchenware online. So I was the product photographer for the kitchen stuff, and then I'd shot the food photography for the magazine and did some stuff for the YouTube channel. So that was my first full-time job. And then I came back to the UK in 2012 and did product photography for five, six years, and then that consultancy I mentioned for about 18 months and then switched over to YouTube. So that's kind of the trajectory.
Matt Jacob:Wow, what a story. So many questions from that. But you talked about. You weren't quite there yet in terms of photography, or people weren't noticing that you were a good enough photographer. When was that that you could call yourself a photographer? When was that that you could call yourself a photographer? And, even more so, when do you think we, as photographers, are able to? What allows us to call ourselves photographers? Certain?
Sean Tucker:stage certain levels money. Well, I mean, I think you can call yourself a photographer if you take photographs. I think that's it's not a very popular opinion apparently, but that's what I think, I think, think you know, like, if I go downstairs and I, I, I paint, I can say I can tell people, yeah, I, I paint, I'm a painter. I'm not a professional, I'm a painter, I do that as a hobby. I think it's okay to say that, professionally speaking. I think the definition is the minute you make money from your photography, you're a professional photographer.
Sean Tucker:You might not be a career photographer might be something you do to make a bit of money on the side. It might not be your main profession, um, but you're, it's your, it's your, it's your job. I think if you, if, if it's the main thing that makes you money. I mean, I've never been too concerned with, like, the label I. I get the feeling it's like people who have it as a career, who are kind of like trying to keep everyone else away. I've never felt the need to kind of like you know, convince everybody that you know, I'm better than so-and-so. Who only does it part-time, I don't care. Hopefully my work speaks for itself. Right, that's what's important.
Sean Tucker:I think I knew when my work had started to reach a level that that I could sort of confidently put it on a business card, say was was when I was getting hired more regularly for it and people would, would introduce me as oh yeah, this is Sean, he's a photographer because that's why they hired me or that's how they know me. Like that. For me was when I could do it more confidently around people. Um, yeah, I, I, but but again, I. That's dangerous to say too, I think, because I mean I, some people, some of the best photographers in history, didn't make money off their photography you know, were they not photographers?
Sean Tucker:is somebody like a, somebody like vivian mayer, who was a street photographer who didn't make money off of photography? Is she not a photographer? Of course she was. She made this massive body of brilliant work that, by the sounds of it, never made a penny in her lifetime. Of course she was a photographer.
Sean Tucker:You know, I, I, I'm less concerned with kind of the label, really. Um, yeah, I, I, I suppose for myself I was always tracking, like what my skillset was doing. So at the start I did what everyone else does, you know, which is I tried to get the fastest prime I could and throw everything into super shallow depth of field and I told everyone because that impressed my friends, because their phone couldn't do that right. So at the time it's like oh yeah, sean's amazing, you should see all the blurry stuff in the background. I know it's just sticking it in 1.4 and it'll do that automatically. They don't know that because they're not photographers. They don't know how it works.
Sean Tucker:When I moved beyond the easy tricks and I started to work out, you know, say with portraits, like where was I looking for good, consistent light? When was I really paying attention to what the background was doing and how to complement the image. When was I not just throwing it into super shallow depth of field to include the background and put them in a setting? I could feel myself getting more control over my photography and I think I think, biggest. I think maybe this is a good definition.
Sean Tucker:The best definition for the professional side of it is can you do what you do consistently?
Sean Tucker:So if, if, if I took a great photograph of my friend, right, we're just out and I get a good photograph of my friend and then a client sees that photograph, they go oh, we really liked that photograph you posted on like can you come and take photographs of our staff for our website. But I know in the back of my head I just got lucky, I just looked good on that day. I don't really know how to replicate that every time, no matter what the conditions. I'm not yet at that level where I can put myself forward to get hired right, I'm going to go make a mess of it. I need to be able to say to a client yes, I can do that shot that you like again and again and again, and I can do it every time because I know how to replicate those results. So being able to be repeatable with your skills and consistent with your skills, I think that's when I can say to myself I'm ready to be hired out and put myself forward for work. That's a big part of gym.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, I think it's really important to not have labels. If we can help. It helps to identify people, and you talked about, um, someone introducing you as a photographer. I think that's really important, like for someone else having that perception that you're a photographer and you're sat there going. I'm not really, you know, I don't feel like I am, but if, if the rest of the world see you as that, then it kind of defines it for you, right. And the same thing with the word artist, which I think is thrown around a lot. It's very almost pretentious, it's I'm an artist and you're not kind of thing I don't. With a serious question following up from this, where does the art part come into it? Once you've kind of understood that, okay, I feel comfortable in my own skin as a photographer, or, however, you know someone who takes photos professionally. Where does the meaning come in now? Is it in the process, or is it in the final result, or is it just all of it?
Sean Tucker:Well, it's an optional extra in a way, I think I don't think everyone gets there or wants to get there, I think. I think there's different sorts of photography, for example, like you could be, you could be a fit and like I was as a product photographer. Like this. Trust me, there was no art to the product photography I was doing. It was it was the white background.
Sean Tucker:That's what it was. They had to be lit cleanly, had had to be very clean looking images, but I couldn't get creative with them. I wasn't allowed to. They needed them for the website had to look very consistent and there's nothing wrong with that being your choice. That road you want to go as a photographer. You don't want to be an artist. You want to serve your clients and make great images and make a living doing it right. You're using your camera like a craftsman uses a tool to go and serve, to make something that's practical for a client. There's honor in that. Absolutely do it. Maybe you don't want to go the artistic route. That's what you want to do. That's great.
Sean Tucker:I think it's important to say that first. But if you're somebody who says, oh, I do want to make work that's artistic and it says something, then it's a slightly different set of questions you have to ask yourself. So then you're trying to build your own audience around what you do and you're trying to feed a message into what you're making, because you want to be deliberate about what you're saying with your work. Perhaps, or Well, maybe it is just aesthetics. I mean, that's okay, aesthetics are great. Like, maybe you might say, well, there's no deep meaning to my work, but say somebody who uses like intentional camera, movement and landscape photography. They're not trying to necessarily say something deep with that, but when people view their images, the colors and the shapes, there's a sense of calm, it gives them something. The aesthetics, purely on their own, they kind of make them feel something and that's enough, like maybe that's enough. So I think there's levels to all this stuff and there's nothing to say that just because you take photographs of the camera, you need to push yourself to be a deep artist.
Sean Tucker:It might not be that, but but you'll know. If it is, you'll, you'll, you'll know it. If that's, if you're kind of frustrated with how technical it is and you feel like you want more, it's time to start digging and rooting around in that box and working out what can I do with my camera, that that has other levels to it, that says something on a deeper level, and then that's a journey to go on right. That's the same thing. Going back to self-awareness like dig into yourself. What do I uniquely have to say? How do I see the world? What do I think needs to be paid attention to? What? What message do I want to weave into the things that I make, then that's time to take that june shouldn't we encourage that, though?
Matt Jacob:is there a responsibility with someone who has gravitas such as you, any professional photographer or any artist? Isn't there a good thing that we can spread throughout society, without being too sensationalist, if we encourage more of that artistic look and more of that, even if it is just aesthetics? The beauty of that is that you're sparking conversation or you're giving someone pleasure, right, as long as it comes back to that intent and your definition of photographer, your definition of photographer. Earlier, you know everyone's a photographer. Now, really, everyone's got a camera and they take photos. Shouldn't we encourage people to separate from that, from separate from the social media, people who just post and take selfies and do the influencer photos and go on holiday just to get influencer shots or just do product photography in a way that product photography is being dictated to them by and nothing else? I don't know, there's no single answer, but I guess my question is shouldn't we try and encourage the other side of it and the other side of photography that can imbue meaning in our craft?
Sean Tucker:I think I'm careful with that because I try not to preach about what I think other people should be doing with their cameras and I get pushed back on it. I get pushed back when I do talk, like I talk on my channel. People will be like I don't. I just don't care about this stuff, like why, why do you go on about this stuff? I just want to take better photographs because I love photography, and I've had to ask myself is that enough? And of course it's enough, right? I mean like, like, if so, if someone gets joy for themselves out of just making images that they share with their friends online and that's enough, and they don't have this drive to make something more, that says something, should I bully them into doing it? Because I want to see more art in the world? I don't think I'm going to get anywhere. I don't think it's going to work. I don't think they care about that and there's nothing wrong with that. They've got the juice out of what they're doing and maybe there's other avenues in their life where they're giving back. I don't need it to be this specifically. I'm kind of going to let people make their own decisions about that. But when you do get there and you open the door, a crack with me in a conversation and say, you know, I just don't think anything I'm doing has any meaning. I'm in there like a heartbeat to push you to find that meaning, cause I think that's what that's telling you. So I think some people get their different points in their journey and that's when we need to encourage them specifically to take that next step.
Sean Tucker:And some people never get there, and are they worse than us for not getting there? Or is okay for them? You know, are some people just photographers who like taking photographs of the postcard shots when they go, when they go around on their holidays, and that makes them happy because they share it with their friends and they're done like, does it need to be more than that for everybody? And if it is more than that for everybody, it's maybe too ubiquitous to be special anymore. You know, maybe it's okay that only some of us get there and have something off to offer in that space, because it means it's it's, it's not, it has a unique quality that isn't just or every photographer out there. There's some, there's a group that transcend just trying to replicate nice looking shots and dig down deep and work out how to put themselves in it and to say something that matters. I want that to always be a smaller group, really, because it makes it more special.
Matt Jacob:I love it. Say something that matters is something that comes across through all of your work and all of your narratives, and something I want to get onto now is your book the Meaning and the Making, which is basically about all that. Right, but give us a description, give us a synopsis of that book and what it's about, why you wrote it, how you wrote it, et cetera.
Sean Tucker:Yeah, it's. Basically it came about because of that philosophical playlist on my channel. I was putting all these videos out talking about the creative process and I realized that I don't get to say a lot in a 10 minute video there's lots more to say and that everything kind of fitted together if I thought about it. So I was trying to challenge myself how could I put something down that was in something you could hold in your hands? That's my philosophy for the creative life here and now Like it might change, but this is what this human being thought about the creative process here and now in history. And it really felt like now it might change, but this is what this human being thought about the creative process here and now in history, and it really felt like that. It felt like it had the potential to be the most kind of legacy thing that I'd ever done that might live on after I die. So I took it really seriously and, yeah, I had a publisher approach me just before our first lockdown. Funny enough, they come to, they bless, and they came over from san francisco that's where the publisher's based for the london book fair and this was march of 2020 and, um, as they got off the flight and got to the hotel, um, the london book fair was cancelled, so they were stuck in because all this stuff was kicking off with covid. So they kind of said, you still want to have the meeting? And I'm like, yeah, sure, no worries. So I went through and that was basically the only reason they were in London then was to chat with me and they said you know, do you want to do a book with us? And I said, yeah, I've got this idea. They did more traditional photography books and sort of tutorial stuff and I'm like I'm not this, do you want to do it? And, to their credit, they said, yeah, we'll do that with you. Um, and so I had seven months of lockdown just to plug away at this thing. So it was kind of a gift to be able to sit and work on something through that difficult patch and yeah, so I just went through.
Sean Tucker:You know what do I think creator? Well, what I think creativity is, and and when does it get powerful for us? You know, when does it really connect with other people and how do we keep ourselves inspired and how do we find our creative voice and deal with our need for attention around our work or or things like envy, or how we get really controlling and perfectionist about it. How do we deal with that kind of stuff and then digging into that, you know, how do where do our feelings fit and our thinking fit in terms of our creativity? How do those two things balance together and how do we build meaning into the things that we make and how do we think about things in terms of time and not having to get tension of everything now?
Sean Tucker:So I was trying to string along a trajectory for basically a manual for when you get to the middle point of your creativity. It's not for everybody, it's for people who are like I've been making things for a while and I feel like something's missing. This is hopefully that intermediate step, that middle of journey, a manual almost, for how do you kind of deal with some of the things that are coming up now, which has been, I mean, it's been great to put out because you know some of these things I've thought. But then you think, let me think like, is this just me being self-indulgent? Does this just work for me? But me being self-indulgent, does this just work for me? But then giving it away and sort of having people read this book and going around and getting talks and getting the feedback from people. It's been so encouraging to realize that everyone else is dealing with the same stuff and this really seems to connect with people and really, really help in deep ways. So that's. It's been super, super gratifying in that way.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, and something that that could grab my attention. Uh was I love the concepts of the chapters, by the way, and the one ego kind of stuck out to me and something I've battled with my whole life, and in a negative way, trying to make it more of a positive way, especially with photography and the creative journey and the difference that you talk about between fulfillment and success, to touch upon that for us, and how you kind of define each and how that's being relevant to you in your personal journey yeah, I mean so.
Sean Tucker:So ego, particularly like I mean just to give a very brief thing is that obviously the ego is, is, uh, is Freud's idea and he had this idea of the id, the ego and the superego. And he says the id is our um, it's our base drives, it's our, it's our like, you know, fight or flight and aggression, and it's it's basically where we're just trying to survive and take care of ourselves and fend off threats and make sure we've got food in our bellies and a roof over our heads. It's a very basic kind of primal stuff, right. And then you've got super ego on the other end of the spectrum, which is our concern for society and our community and other people around us, right. So we've got this very selfish, very primal id and this very altruistic super ego. The ego sits in the middle of those two and it mediates and it works out like how do we take care of ourselves with what we need, but also be a good member of society and people around us? And in the ego's negotiation between those two is where our sense of self is formed, that's our personality, how much we take care of ourselves, how much we take care of other people and how we negotiate all that. So we all need an ego. We have to have one. They're not bad things. We have to have an ego.
Sean Tucker:But I think egos can get uncalibrated. And one of my favorite authors, a Franciscan friar from the States named Richard Law, he talks about the ego's biggest trick is when it tries to convince us that we're separate and superior to other people those two things, separate and superior. So that's when we know our ego is uncalibrated. It's not taking care of us anymore, it's trying to play a trick and trying to make itself more than it is. And we have to be really aware when we're playing that trick of trying to pretend we're separate and superior. And you know it immediately when you do it right, like, oh yeah, that person, you know they do this, but they're actually rubbish and I'm better than them because I have more integrity than them. And this is why that's your ego trying to do the separate, superior trick. So I think when you're aware that that's what your ego does, it redefines what your goals are right. Because when you say success, success we often define as the amount of people that are looking at us, paying attention to our work, the numbers that are attached to what we do, right, that feels like success. But that's more on the kind of it's about me, selfish side of things, right, that's like I want people to think I'm a big shot. That's feeding that separate and superior side of your ego. But I think fulfillment is different, because fulfillment, I think, is more on the super ego side, right, and that's more.
Sean Tucker:Does my work affect other people in a really meaningful way, regardless of the numbers, and this I mean. This hits home for me, like, in really tangible ways. So I have, you know, I have a large number of followers online, right, so that's something that a lot of people aspire to. But take my word for it when you get it, you're going to realize that's not enough, it's not really it You're not going to be satisfied with. Well, I topped half a million subscribers, so now I'm happy. That equals happiness. It doesn't equal happiness at all, because if you have that but you don't really feel like you're making a difference and people are forgetting about you moving on, it's a losing game, right.
Sean Tucker:But when I put out the meeting in the making, I also did an audio book version, and that audio book version was picked up by a guy who sent me an email and the header to the email was you saved my life, right, and you're going to hear that I didn't save his life, but you'll get the point of what I'm trying to say. But he basically said in this email he said I've really been battling, I had an injury. I'm really struggling with that injury. It's led to depression and recently I just thought I can't go on. I can't do this anymore, it's too hard.
Sean Tucker:And he said I drove myself to the Lake District and I was going to end it. I took, I'd taken a bottle of pills with me. I was going to walk up a mountain and just finish it off. I couldn't do it anymore. He said but I had your audio book with me, so I had it in my headphones and I was walking up the hill and I listened to chapter one and chapter two and chapter three as I was going and I got to the top at about chapter four or five. But I thought I wonder what the next chapter is. So I carried on walking and I thought well, chapter six and chapter seven, and I kept walking around. And chapter eight, chapter nine.
Sean Tucker:And he says I got to the end of the book and I had a ride back at the car and I got in the car and I drove home to my family and I didn't do anything right. I didn't do anything but make something that I believed in and put it out to the world. But it hit one guy in the right way on the right day and he said to me he said my problems aren't solved, I've still got the same problems, I still struggle regularly. But something about that on that day said I need to keep going. And now compare the two. There's half a million subscribers, which is an abstract number, and there's that one email from that one guy Like what do you think I care about? Like like that email will keep me going for two years.
Sean Tucker:That email will keep me going motivation wise for two years.
Matt Jacob:Like.
Sean Tucker:I can't tell you how fulfilling that is right. The other looks like success. The numbers I honestly couldn't really care less about it. It comes and goes. It goes up and it goes down. People leave, people come. I don't care. That, though, will be fulfilling for the rest of my life and it will mean something to me to the end of my days. So I think the earlier you can get into a head, quieting down that ego like I need to impress everybody with who I am and working on how you can make a difference with other people that's super ego stuff. How can I meet people where they're at and really make a dent that makes a difference?
Matt Jacob:you will be a far more fulfilled artist and so much less anxious for chasing that success stuff well, something else that I've resonated a lot with in your work is parable, and I think there's something so unique about it. And I say I resonate with it because they're almost I mean, essay is probably the wrong word, but there's this lovely written narrative alongside some beautiful photos, and I I love that approach to photography, and the fact that we're able to get that twice a year, um is wonderful. Where, where did that idea and that concept come from?
Sean Tucker:It was me realizing I had, I had pieces of something elsewhere, like I had I had the meaning in the making, which was just a purely written book. You know there's there's not an image in the book other than the front cover. And then I had these collections I put out every year. I called them, so it was just 90 images from any given year that I would sell. But it was just the images. There were very little words in it. And I realized, like I'm a photographer and a writer and I have these two different things out there, why aren't I putting this stuff together? And I wanted to give myself the challenge because I also felt like as a photographer, especially with the street stuff I do all the travel stuff. It's a bit of a mess, if I'm honest, like it's very disparate, like there are some nice images in there here and there, but there's no cohesion to it, there's no body of work in there. And so I felt like I needed to give myself that challenge, to grow up as a photographer and to start to put bodies of images together around a theme and to write about that theme as well and use it to talk about something that I think is meaningful. So for me it was kind of a challenge to say how can I take that next step If I one day want to put out a book of photography and words together? I'm a long way off that yet. I think I've got some work to do, but I could do a magazine. I could definitely do that.
Sean Tucker:So Parable became this way for me to, twice a year, be putting out these magazines which are writing and photography around that theme, and it'll always start with photography somehow.
Sean Tucker:The first one starts with window light and talking about how we use windows to shape our light in photography, and then it moves through to talking about how you know, another word for window is aperture, and we actually have a little window in our hands and our lenses that shines light into a dark space on the sensor that gets captured, and then talking about psychology and how do we like open up that aperture and shine light onto dark interiors when times get tough? How do we do that? How do we intentionally flood light back in when interiors are getting dark? And so I'm always starting with photography and moving through to talking about something that's hopefully a bit deeper and a bit more meaningful, and I've I've loved the challenge, like I love these things as like objects. Now, they're great to be giving myself that target every year if I'm shooting and writing towards this theme, for for that release date is is a is a cool challenge to have yeah, I love it.
Matt Jacob:Please keep them coming. And I really enjoy, even in this conversation, that how the word meaning has been a common thread and it is true obviously all of your work. Is that something that you think about when it comes to a legacy? Is it something you think about when it comes to the future? And I guess what excites you and what worries you about that future and legacy going hand in hand?
Sean Tucker:I almost feel like I don't think about it too much really. Um, I feel like, uh, it's the difference between looking back and looking forward, right, like when we look forward, we're often quite anxious about how am I going to get done what I want to get done? I'm a bit more philosophical about that now. I'm not trying to bully myself into achieving so much because when I look back I realized that I achieved more than I thought I could, just by rubric. It happened as long as I was consciously on it, as long as I was pushing myself in the day to day to try and find the next thing or say something that was meaningful, as long as I was digging into myself, trying to get to know myself better, as long as I was reading as widely as I could, trying to be curious about the human condition as much as I could. Those things do surface and I'll probably end up doing more than I thought I could if I tried to plan it and bully myself into doing it.
Sean Tucker:And I'm going to have to change course, whatever I think I'm going to do in 10 years now into doing, and I'm going to have to change course. Whatever I think I'm going to do in 10 years? Now I'm not. I've gone from wanting to rehabilitate lions as a teenager to thinking I was going to be a psychologist, to being a pastor for 10 years, to being a photographer and a video guy, to doing YouTube, to writing a book. I have no idea what happens in 10 years. I'm just going to do the next little thing I know I have to do and I'll do the next six months well and I'm going to see what comes around.
Sean Tucker:So I try to hold the future quite loosely and I just I have maybe a naive view that it kind of works out. We don't need to be too. I'm not good at the five-year plan thing, for example. I'm not that persistent. Just keep moving. That's my thing, it's like. As long as I have this in my head, all I have to do is the next thing and make sure you're moving, make sure you're developing and you keep moving. It'll work itself out and you'll be able to be honest in the day-to-day and adjust where you need to, and whatever happens will be more surprising and interesting than you could have planned today.
Matt Jacob:Anyway, interesting that you could have planned today anyway. So just trust yourself. A little bit wonderful, and uh well, you've been moving since the age of three. So, um, it's great to see your journey, it's great to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining me. I'll be, I'll be, over this side of the world watching, watching you on a on a monthly basis, that's for sure. So, um, until we meet again or talk again, thanks so much thanks.
Sean Tucker:Thanks so much. Love you to the soul. See you then. Cheers.
