The MOOD Podcast

Building Success through Failure: Vanessa Joy, EO71

• Matt Jacob

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Can failing at something you love lead you towards finding your true passion? 

Vanessa Joy is a celebrated wedding photographer, Canon Explorer of Light and global photography educator. Known for her 'timeless' approach and ability to resonate and connect with clients, Vanessa has built a long standing career that blends photography, education, and entrepreneurship. With over 20 years of experience, her work embodies a commitment to capturing authentic moments while mentoring the next generation of photographers.

What we talk about:

  • Vanessa's journey through photography from unexpected setbacks to full-time success. 
  • Her philosophy on creating timeless images and balancing trends with authenticity.
  • Insights into navigating burnout, redefining your 'why', and maintaining self-care as a creative professional. 
  • Building a successful photography business while staying true to your artistry. 
  • The future of wedding photography.
  • How to improve and evolve within the industry.
  • Valuable tips on using flash, creating client connections, and avoiding beginner mistakes.

Find Vanessa Joy's work on her channels:
Website: www.vanessajoy.com
Instagram: @vanessajoy
YouTube: @vanessajoy

Thank you to Luminar Neo for sponsoring this episode - get 25% discount on all their products here using the code MOODPODCAST25.
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Matt Jacob:

Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation one frame at a time. I'm your host, Matt Jacob, and thank you for joining me again in today's conversation. In this episode, I'm thrilled to speak with Vanessa Joy, distinguished wedding photographer, educator and creative entrepreneur. Known for her timeless approach and deep connection with her clients, Vanessa has really built a successful career, capturing life's most important moments with authenticity and artistry. Her journey from early influences to becoming an educator in a field highlights a profound commitment to her craft and an aspiring perspective on photography as both an art and a business.

Matt Jacob:

Together, we've dove into some fascinating topics, starting with her journey into photography and the influences that shaped her unique style. We discussed her philosophy on crafting timeless images and the ethical considerations behind capturing perfect moments while staying true to those real emotions. Vanessa also shared insights into balancing creativity with business demands, her approach to teaching and the importance of staying grounded amidst the pressures of social media. We rounded off with her thoughts on the future of wedding photography and some lesser-known tips she's picked up along the way, making this a really insightful conversation for anyone passionate about photography and the stories behind the lens. Thank you for tuning in, and now I bring you Vanessa Joy, Vanessa Joy, welcome. So much to the Moop Podcast.

Vanessa Joy:

Thanks for having me. This is like cross other side of the world. This is happening.

Matt Jacob:

This is actually. I mean, I don't know the longitudes, but this is pretty much opposite sides of the world, right?

Vanessa Joy:

Yes, this is that thing when you're as a kid, like if you dug a hole directly below, I reach you and you're joining us from Texas, right. I'm in Austin. I like to say I'm in Austin and not Texas. It's very, very different.

Matt Jacob:

And I'm going to put a disclaimer on this episode, because we are recording on US Election Day but we're not going to talk about it. No, we're not it. So this will go out in a few weeks, but at the time of recording, we have maybe one part of our brain on the results that are coming in as we speak. Okay, let's kick things off, and I wanted to start with you, and we'll talk about your background in a minute and something that really kind of got my attention as I was doing a little bit more research about you. I mean, I've known of you before, you're a big name out there, but on your website I think it was on your website there was this kind of motto or slogan and it was to put an end to pictures that look like everyone else's, and I think that's something we all strive for in terms of some originality or uniqueness. Can you tell us a little bit more behind that statement and maybe dive into a little bit about how you go about achieving that?

Vanessa Joy:

You know, can we just be totally honest here? I hire copywriters to write what's on my website. So let's just for real, admit I didn't. That did not just come from my brain. You know I only have so many creative parts to me. Photography, I didn't. That did not just come from my brain. You know I only have so many creative parts to me. Photography, I think, is the main one. So when I try to do graphic design or write although I have written four books I hire the people that are really good at that. And you know I know exactly where that line is, because it's not like I'm telling them go write my website and you know I'll see you next Tuesday. It's just a collaboration of what I'm looking for.

Vanessa Joy:

But the reason why I had that particular sentence in there is because I'm primarily a wedding photographer, or at least my background is in weddings, and that's where I've cut my teeth, and for a while.

Vanessa Joy:

A lot of the instructors, a lot of the photographers and what's been popular are very similar and I always say you know consumers, they don't know the difference between good and great photography. You do as a photographer, but for most consumers they think we all look the same. So I wanted to teach wedding photography in a way where you could stand out. So primarily, wedding photographers are natural light photographers and I am teaching flash photography in conjunction with natural light and in a way where you can decide, hey, I want this to look real dark and moody and like it was lit with flash, or it's really nasty outside and raining and crappy and I still want that natural light glow, and bringing flash photography into that world just gives so much control, and so that's why that sentence is in there, so that it it tells people that, hey, we're teaching you things that aren't you know what you see every day and aren't what's being taught somewhere else.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I love that and I resonate with that, because if anyone sometimes calls my work unique, it's because of the use of Flash.

Vanessa Joy:

And your stuff doesn't look like Flash. I looked at your stuff. I can tell when you're using Flash, but most people would not see that and it's beautiful by the way your work, that's very kind and straight back at you.

Matt Jacob:

Not see that and it's beautiful, by the way, your work, that's very kind and straight back at you. With flash specifically, there's a lot of not haters, but there's a lot of purists out there that push back against the use of flash, especially outside when natural light is available. I'm not talking about in pitch black, but on a creative sense. I'd love it, right, you and I. We get it, we love it. What do you say to those people that do push back at that?

Vanessa Joy:

So you and I should totally different things. I am very consumer-based and the last stuff I saw of yours was in Indonesia, and that's why I would not have expected you to say that you get that same hate from purists for people using flash. You get that too.

Matt Jacob:

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Matt Jacob:

Illumina Neo is your go-to for quick, professional quality results across all of your images. So go to the episode description, click on the link and use the code for a whopping 25% discount and pick up your copy of Luminar Neo today. Trust me, it's definitely going to be worth it. All right, see you later. Yeah, I do Less so now because I've become a little bit more subtle with it. I still, I'd say, 50 of my work there is flash in there, but I use it because a it adds a level of creativity and I can basically, if you've got a flash in your hand and stuff, you could do whatever you want. You don't need to worry too much about natural light or the location. So a lot of the reason why I use it is because the locations I go to I can't really change Like the posing is set up, but the location, the environment, is whatever I have given to me, and so just having that light in the back.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, let's go to that field over there Exactly yeah, so yeah, I do get a little bit, but I mean I don't really listen to them, but I'm interested from a bigger photographer like yourself who's so enthusiastic with flash and uses it so well. Do you find that that's a very? You know, it's just audience capture. You don't really get that because your audience knows you and loves that, or do you still get kind of pushback from the purists?

Vanessa Joy:

Oh, I get pushback on everything. Even just being a wedding like being a wedding photographer period. According to photography purists, it's not even an art form. So I mean, I do a lot more now than just weddings, but just being a wedding photographer is like the lowest part of the totem pole. You are just the scum. You're doing it for the money.

Vanessa Joy:

So then I throw some flash in there and you know, the thing about the people who don't love flash photography for weddings is you get half and I don't want to put words in their mouth, but you get half of them. They're like saying they hate flash and it's because they don't know how to use flash. And I can say, because I was one of them and I'd be like I don't, I don't like flash, I don't like how it looks, and that's just because I didn't know how to use it properly to appear how I wanted my image to look. But the other half, I don't know. They're just gonna be mad no matter what I shoot. So just let them be mad. I, I like the fact that I can tell my clients like you don't have to worry about rain on the wedding day, I bring the sun.

Matt Jacob:

Very good. Well, let's dive into weddings. Tell us about how you got into wedding photography, your background with photography in general.

Vanessa Joy:

You know I didn't realize this till recently, but the whole reason I am even a photographer is because I failed at something I really, really wanted once. And so I was homeschooled for eight, nine, nine years and going into my ninth year I was just dying to go to school and I'm an introvert, which is why I probably lasted so long. But by that point it's like going into high school, like I need, I need to be out there in life. So I'm begging to go to school and my parents like fine, you can go to this vocational school. Like let's not send her totally to public school, let's go with vocational. And it was like a math tech type vocation. It wasn't like I don't know something, like a specific trade. So I take the entrance test and it's like, dear God, this is my only chance to get out of my house. Like, please, please, please, let me pass this test For the record. I am really good at math. But I failed and I had to be homeschooled for a whole nother year till finally I was allowed to go to public school. And that public school is where I ended up taking black and white darkroom photography.

Vanessa Joy:

My high school photography teacher, I mean, I fell in love with it, obviously, but my high school photography teacher did weddings on the weekends. I, even after that, and, like my love for it, I still thought I had to have a real job, right? Because this was, you know, pre-instagram and most people having websites and the Yellow Pages were the best places, to, you know, be found as a business. The Yellow Pages, yeah. Yeah, it's disgusting, yeah, I know, but my only examples were like photography wasn't a real job. My mom did photography, but she was really a stay-at-home mom. And then my high school photography teacher did photography, but he was really a high school photography teacher. So off I go on to my next journey in college and I think you know what I'm going to be a dental hygienist and I go to dental hygiene. I am the only high school student accepted to this dental hygiene program. I go to orientation and, oh my God, I'd never want back, just like okay, thank you, goodbye, no, no, please. So you did orientation one day and they're like no.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, yeah, just no, no. So I ended up going to school for photography, but again not a real job. So I became a Spanish teacher because that was a real job. So let me become a Spanish teacher. For the record, I'm not native, no-transcript my work and hired me and I worked for him for five years, but it was all because I failed that entrance exam to the school I really wanted to go to.

Matt Jacob:

What other opportunities in your photography career that you've failed at do you think has opened doors to other opportunities?

Vanessa Joy:

You know what, Matt? I've never failed since, so we're just going to keep.

Matt Jacob:

Other than every day.

Vanessa Joy:

Other than every day. Definitely failing my family on a routine basis Every day. Definitely failing my family on a routine basis. No, this year I did. I thought last year was a lot I did 120 days away, and this year is going to be 148. And I'm likely adding to that also. So it is, yeah, I fail on a daily basis, for sure. But as far as big epiphany moments, I don't know, that was my big one for like the last decade. I just figured that one out.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I mean, it takes a while to look back, doesn't it, and realize where those learning experiences have come from. What about weddings, then? How did you get specifically into weddings?

Vanessa Joy:

That was what my high school photography teacher did on the weekends.

Matt Jacob:

He photographed weddings.

Vanessa Joy:

So I assisted and then I second shot for him. I did the traditional method that so few people do these days. I was, you know, an assistant first and I worked for someone else for five years before starting my own thing and it was the best idea ever. I mean, I made every mistake I could have, first on his business and his reputation and not mine.

Matt Jacob:

Is that some advice you could give to people who want to do the same thing? Just go work with someone else and make loads of mistakes till you figure it out.

Vanessa Joy:

No, that's right, Just go burn some bridges over there where they won't remember you. What about you? Do you have? I feel like you're the kind of person that would have those big epiphany moments, Like you seem. You seem like ultra creative and enlightened and like you must have epiphany moments every time you're on a bed. I wish.

Matt Jacob:

I was enlightened. I'm working on that. I had a midlife crisis, if you could say a mini one and, um, I don't want to play the violin at all because we all have our own issues. But yeah, covid was really my. My other career as a pilot took me and I I empathize with your time away from your family. I was 2021. I was away for nine, over nine months of the year, and I was, I'm depressed, unhealthy, eating crap. It's so lonely it's extremely lonely.

Matt Jacob:

No one, no one else understands the situation and, and you know, something had to change. And I always loved photography and I loved conversations and podcasts was something I kind of wanted to do and we moved country, moved life, and we just kind of started again, which is a very long story short, but that was one epiphany moment, when I'm sat on my bed crying every day and not knowing why, really, because I just didn't have that on the outside it was great, probably right yeah, of course, like you're a pilot, you travel the world, get paid.

Matt Jacob:

Well, what are you complaining about, you know? Um, so, yeah, that was one big epiphany moment of my adult life that I can, I, think about most days and, uh, yes, it's then just been working on myself more than anything else, right, and I want to touch upon that with you later, because I know you're into as health as much as anyone. But, um, yeah, I think that was. I wouldn't say I have many epiphany moments, but that was definitely a midlife. What am I doing? What am I doing with everything, you know? What's my purpose? And all those kind of cliche but existential questions? Definitely had to dig deep and try and answer right.

Vanessa Joy:

And you landed in Bali.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, we landed in Bali. We were in Hong Kong at the time with my job and we'd been there nine years and loved it until COVID hit and the whole place completely changed. Our lives changed and it just wasn't tenable for us to stay there anymore. So, um, indonesia was another. It was the kind of the next place I had on my radar, cause I've traveled here quite a lot. Photography here is just abundant. Uh, certainly the photography opportunities with the cultures, subcultures and the landscapes and the diversity. And Bali. We got married here, yeah, so we, we, it was an easy, it was easy. For me to say like I want to move to bali for my wife. Not so easy, uh, but we, yeah, we, we took the jump and uh, yeah, I haven't really looked back we, we absolutely love it here.

Vanessa Joy:

We're very, very fortunate to have made it I've never been and you know I'm typical american woman who watched Eat, pray, love, of course. So if you see that I started the whole tourism search, I know, I'm sure it did, and I hope it's benefiting people there a little bit at least, or more than hurting, I guess, is what you hoped for. Well, I am going to be part of that, though. I started doing these photo trips. Last year we went to Italy, this year we did Croatia and we're doing Bali next year actually, and I already mapped it. I already mapped it.

Matt Jacob:

We will be one hour and four minutes from your coffee shop Amazing, I'd love to host you, I have to figure out how we get the schedule, and it means such as me.

Vanessa Joy:

We have 20 people signed up so far. Hopefully we'll get a few more Fantastic.

Matt Jacob:

Good for you. Like, you use the studio anytime. Uh, if you're going to do some theory stuff or just some shoots inside, obviously the studio's here with all the lights you need and all the setup. So we'd love, we'd love to host you. Yeah, it'd be fantastic, and then maybe we can do part two conversation in person.

Vanessa Joy:

Yes, yes, well, when we get down to that itinerary, I will definitely let you know. I four spots left. I'm hoping to fill those spots.

Matt Jacob:

All right, we'll do a shout out on this video. Yeah, where can people go to find?

Vanessa Joy:

Oh, you can if you go to my Instagram so Instagram is where I tend to hang out and you just send me a message there, a DM, that says photo trip. It'll automatically send you the info on the latest photo trip.

Matt Jacob:

God, you've got it all sorted, absolutely Now AI, ai, automatic comments and messages. Love it.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, I mean, that's a, I guess, a bot, more than AI. I just, you know, I want to AI myself. I was talking to someone recently and maybe you could, you could weigh in on this. I think I was talking to someone recently and maybe you could weigh in on this. I think I was talking to someone recently. So we had this big creator, boom right, Podcasters, you know, creators, photographers, but then also, like the influencer, boom right. And there's just so many entrepreneurs right. There's so many people who are just single person running a business, single person talent, their faces everywhere, but none of us have a traditional exit plan, right, like we can't. If you sold your podcast and it's not, you like what is that? If I sold Vanessa Joy everywhere, like, and then Vanessa Joy wasn't there, what is that so like? Where's that exit plan? Is it that, like, we 3D, map ourselves into AI and you can continue this offshoot of us sort of with AI and it ends up being like a legacy that lives forever? You can after you Ty.

Matt Jacob:

I think you've hit on something there that I ask a lot of people in terms of how do you scale being an individual photographer, like how first of all scale, let alone an exit plan of that scalability, if you manage to scale it, because it's such an individual pursuit, people, if people are going to give you money for whatever asset or service you provide, then the ip of all of that is you. So how are you going to scale that without doing everything yourself? It's, uh, it's such a challenge, right? Or the the.

Vanessa Joy:

The creative person who's coming to mind is, uh, kelsey j. You know she has a great photography and she models, so she's kind of like a higher color hybrid, like influencer photographer, but actually a photographer, not an iphoneographer not they saying that ip phonographer is not photographers either, just for the record, but um, she's sort of that hybrid. So like, if she decides to I don't know retire one day, she has this audience of 300, 400 000 people. That audience is still has value. Like, where does it go? Could it go somewhere? Ai, I don't know.

Matt Jacob:

Write some answers in the comments. That's all I can say. Give us some answers, Someone. Give me an agent with that answer.

Vanessa Joy:

Whoever solves this is going to be a billionaire and probably live a very unethical life for sure.

Matt Jacob:

How have you navigated the rise of these influencers that may be encroaching on the photography profession and I know there is no delineation like that, but if we're going to put labels on and some merge into the other and now with iPhones, everyone's a photographer to some respect and does that ever come into your thought process? Do you even care or do you kind of grow?

Vanessa Joy:

with it. I try to grow with it. I mean, I think that should be everyone's goal is to find out how you're going to grow with it. You're going to be the person who's driving the horse and buggy when everyone else is driving automobiles, so you have to find somebody to grow with it. But you know, I feel like it's just created a new genre of photography. I don't know how much it's encroached. It has a little bit.

Vanessa Joy:

Obviously, like you know, moms with cell phones are hiring a professional photographer less when they can throw a timer on. Yes, ai headshots where I can upload a bunch of selfies and get a professional headshot. Yeah, there's probably a sect of people that's taking business from AI retouching, but there's this new genre of photography who? Someone like Kelsey or TJ is another one that comes to mind where they're photographers but they're photographer influencers there's no name for this yet. They're photographer influencers and their job is to photograph themselves, but in a professional manner and their customers are not my customers in a professional manner and their customers are not my customers.

Vanessa Joy:

You know, like they're never going to get hired or want to get hired, not even that they couldn't get hired. They're never going to want to get hired to photograph somebody's newborn photos or you know the holiday christmas card. You know they're. They just don't have the same customers. Their customers would be like canon and profoto and squarespace, and you, you know brands and you know B2C versus no, I'm sorry, b2b instead of B2C, so there's a part of it, you know. That definitely comes into play. I think weddings are the safest thing, though, because you're not going to AI that like product photography and you're not going to influence it.

Matt Jacob:

There and you're not gonna influence it. There's no influencer that's gonna go and do a wedding photography job, right.

Vanessa Joy:

So actually actually um wedding. Content creators are a thing and it is somebody who comes around with their phone okay and just to do that. Yeah, yeah, well, a little different.

Matt Jacob:

That is growing with it. I guess it's just accepting that's. That's just part and parcel of these days. And certainly I mean, when we talk about influencers, I see through my friends and other kind of small photography network, a lot of photographers who started their career working for brands, hotels or equipment brands or whatever they might be and doing photography and video for them. Now influencers are coming in and kind of doing free collabs so that they so the influencer gets their content for their basically socials likes and validation, and then the hotel or whatever get free stuff. So I do see that as being taken over or certainly encroaching in that space. But yeah, I encroaching in that space. But yeah, I think you're right with weddings. So I think you're safe. I think, yeah, I think pretty safe. I think your quality speaks for itself anyway. Um, so tell me about the, the wedding, just life on the road as a wedding photographer if you 148 days away doing weddings or maybe there's some other. So not just weddings, no not just weddings.

Vanessa Joy:

It is I do work for, well, one of those hotel companies. I do a bunch of shoots for hilton grand vacations, which is hilton's timeshare division, and I do a lot of speaking, a lot of traveling for canon photo trips. I'm going to af, africa, at the end of this month Bucket list for sure, but I'm going just to like take photos and be taught how to take safari photos.

Matt Jacob:

Okay, cool, all right. So when it comes to weddings specifically we'll just hover over that for a second Can you give us an insight as to what your process during the wedding looks like? And we talked about you making art format of wedding photography, which you definitely do. Your wedding photography is incredible and it's extremely fine, arty and, hopefully, you're extremely proud of it. So, whatever these other people say, they're wrong, but I think that a lot of obviously skill, time, effort, practice goes into that. So tell us about the process of being a wedding photographer for a wedding and the life around that.

Vanessa Joy:

So well, I guess what it looks like. Day of you know it starts the night, I mean it starts the week of. You're getting your equipment prepared, you're making sure everything is packed and'm asking them if they have golds or silvers so I know what little lay flat or flat lay kit to bring. So all the little decorations that I bring to photograph the shoes and the invitation and things, and then the night before is pretty big for weddings. So I do things like make sure I email the couple, let them know. Just a little reassurance like hey, can't wait to see you tomorrow. You know, try to get some sleep tonight. Do you want me to bring you Starbucks tomorrow? And then I will? I realize saying Starbucks to you is probably very offensive, did I just totally?

Matt Jacob:

We're going to bleep that out.

Vanessa Joy:

I bring them my homemade brewed Aeropress Matcha, aeropress Yerba Mate.

Matt Jacob:

Wow, am I that pretentious?

Vanessa Joy:

No, but I'd like to be no, but the night before. So I do that. And then for me this sounds silly, but I refuse to eat, like shellfish and sushi or anything that could possibly violently upset me the next day. Good tip. And then, yeah, it goes without saying, like you know, not going out for an all night bender. You know, try to get to bed early, all those things.

Matt Jacob:

What's the pressure like on the day? I mean, you've been doing it for long enough where I'm sure you feel less and less nervous, but there's still pressure.

Vanessa Joy:

right, you still got to deliver Always always pressure and I mean the nerves are there. I think they have to be there because the second they're not. You've stopped caring to some degree, right. So the nerves are there, but I do have the confidence that I feel, whatever day I go into, I know I'm going to be able to give them quality photos and I know that they've picked the right person for the job. And I think understanding that helped me get over it. Like if you are super scared and nervous, then you're doubting or you're contradicting their thought process in hiring you, right. Like you're telling them no, you're wrong, I'm not the right person. So you kind of have to convince yourself of that, and I think that's certainly helped my pre-wedding nightmares anyway. Or like you have nightmares and you forgot your memory card or you're late, you get a flat tire.

Matt Jacob:

Be prepared, but also kind of try and break down limiting beliefs. It's easier said than done, of course.

Vanessa Joy:

It is, it is, but try to remember that. And then the other thing is, when it comes to weddings, they're very unique because these two people are at an age where, I don't know, they've maybe had high school photos right, and those high school photos are kind of professional, but they've probably never had really good photos of the two of them together. So the bar is set pretty low together. So the bar is set pretty low Speaking of bar being set.

Matt Jacob:

what would you say and this is a bit more of a high level generic question, but what would you say? The difference between good and great photography is? We touched on it a little bit earlier, but how would you go about defining that?

Vanessa Joy:

The difference between good and great. Great photographers. It has to do with how they treat people and the client experience, whether it's the day of, and making everyone around them feel at peace and not stressed or, you know, making that bride feel beautiful to. You know how they answer things when things go wrong, like because because again, I'm human, I screw up, I fail every day. But when I fail, am I going to like, double down on what my contract says?

Vanessa Joy:

You know what? Probably not, because I care more about the person and the experience, and I think that's what makes a good or great photographer, and maybe you just call it business sense and call it a day. That's what makes a good or great photographer, and maybe you just call it business sense and call it a day. But I think when you learn to relate to people as other human beings that you genuinely want to serve and you want to create a good experience for them, that's going to set you apart, because people know the difference between a good and great experience, not so much a good and great photo, and almost the photography comes last, doesn't it?

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, it certainly comes last to every single person at the wedding, because every guest at the wedding, they've all decided whether you're a good or great photographer and they've never seen a single photo.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, interesting. How do you go about capturing another thing that maybe your copywriters wrote, but I'm sure you're aware of it the word timeless, and especially with respect to wedding photography, I'm interested in this concept, so tell me what timeless means to you. Certainly, let's stick with the context of wedding photography.

Vanessa Joy:

I think timeless has a lot to do with the editing and the way that you take photos has a lot to do with the editing and the way that you take photos. There's a lot of wedding trends that come and go, and I think it's okay to play into them. It's fun. But if you stick to an editing style where, when you look at a photo, the thing that tells you how old it is will be what the people are wearing and not how the photo was edited, then I think that lends itself to being timeless and making sure that you're photographing in a way that isn't overly edgy or even isn't overly traditional too. You know, it's somewhere in the middle. Because if it's too traditional, then that's telling me oh, it's probably a little bit antiquated before cameras could capture a lot of movement, right. But then if it's too edgy, then it's like oh, this was clearly shot when those blurry photos came back for a second round of amazing.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I'm guilty of experimenting with those slow shutters.

Vanessa Joy:

That's okay, though I do too. It's fun.

Matt Jacob:

There is yeah. I mean as a photographer, you you want to have, try and have a clear identity of who you are as much as the photographs that you put out in the world. That doesn't mean to say you can't like do loads of different photography and try this and try that, and if there's a trend, that there's, there's a real negative connotation with the word trend and we could ask you about trends in a minute Trends are okay if you enjoy it, you have fun and as long as you still know what you're about and what the purpose and the intent is behind your photography, I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing.

Matt Jacob:

But if you're trying to stick out, especially maybe in a saturated I don't know if the wedding photography sector is that saturated I know it's extremely difficult, yeah, so I mean, do trends come into? I mean timeless and trends timeless would almost be the opposite of participating in a trend, or you try and consciously probably.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, I'm you know trends get a bad, like you said, a bad connotation. But you know trends get a bad, like you said, a bad connotation. But you know, we're photographers and I could say this in a very positive way and say that we like to test our creative wings. But the truth is we get bored too. We just want to do something different. We want to do something new, and if it's a trend and it inspired us, it was fun, great, and I can play with that trend while still meeting and exceeding the expectations I've set for my couple, then sure sounds good yeah, all right, let's move on to.

Matt Jacob:

You talked about mentioned canon earlier. I know you're a canon explorer of light. Tell us what that means, how you got into it. And you're one of, if I remember correctly you correct me here one of five wedding photographers who've who've become a canon explorer of light. Is that correct?

Vanessa Joy:

I am. Yeah, it is huge goal. I mean, if I was a vision board person it would have been right there at the top. I'm not a vision board person, so it's just always in the back of my mind for the past 20 years. It was about 20 years when I first heard of this canon explorer of light, because you hear that and you're like, oh so I was at Photo Plus in New York, which was a pretty big convention, especially at the time, and standing on the trade show floor with that guy that I worked for for a while and Dennis Reggie. I don't know if you're familiar with him.

Vanessa Joy:

Dennis Reggie was the most famous wedding photographer. Like shot the Kennedy's weddings, was probably BFF with Oprah Like I mean, he's him and Joe Busink and Bambi Cantrell like these big, big names in the wedding field. I'll shot all the celebrities. And I remember someone's talking about Joe and Dennis and it was like, oh yeah, they're canon Canon Explorers of Light. And I'm like, what's that? I want somebody to be whispering about me and say something like that one day later. I want to be that and yeah, about, I guess it was four years now I've been the Canon Explorer of Light and it's there. I think there are like 30 total in the US but very, very, very few wedding photographers okay, what does it mean?

Vanessa Joy:

it means it means I get to know about the cool stuff that comes out before it comes out a lot so it's.

Vanessa Joy:

It's not just a status thing no, I mean, it's so much more. We're the first they call when they need marketing pieces put together, when they need images for whatever they need images for. You know again getting to know about cool equipment. I speak for them all the time, which is a lot of the travel that I do. I'll go to different camera stores and hold workshops and I'm sponsored by them to do it. So we do have to paint Canon in a good light, but for me it was a natural fit. I've always shot Canon and I always paint Canon in a good light because I like it.

Matt Jacob:

All right. So what about your speaking engagements? We'll talk about your teaching, education platforms and YouTube. We're going to get onto that a little bit later, but I'm very fascinated and interested about guest speaking and those kind of events that you do. Can you tell us a little bit more details about those?

Vanessa Joy:

I've been teaching for the past 15 years. I think I used to be a Spanish teacher so I could teach really anything. But I had gone to WPPI, I want to say it's a Wedding and Portrait Photographers International and it's a conference every year. It used to be 15,000 photographers strong, really big conference. And I went to a class. I can't even remember what the topic is and I wish I could remember, but I just remember going to a class because I looked at someone's work and I was like I want to know like how does this happen? How does a photograph get made? And maybe I didn't actually read the title of the class, but I had gone to the class and I was not taught anything about how that photo was made and it was kind of frustrating and I was like you know what I can teach things? I have a degree in teaching things. Granted, it was Spanish, but I could definitely teach someone how to take a better photograph. So I started doing that. You know, local PPA chapter. It was at a diner that has since burned down in New Jersey, where I'm from, and we spoke to a room of. It was my husband and I at the time. We spoke to a room of like 50 people. It was my husband and I at the time. We spoke to a room of like 50 people and then it was just one thing led to another and I love that part of what I do.

Vanessa Joy:

I think it's crucial really, no matter what your field is. I think it's an absolutely necessary part of life that you are constantly mentored by someone and that you constantly mentor someone else. I think it's it's just. We're wired to be that way to pass things on, to continually grow, but at the same time, pass things on to the next generation. So it's something that I love to do. It is something that is very difficult. The travel definitely weighs on me a whole lot. You know, it is really very, very difficult to eat anything healthy when you're just in an airplane at all times and on the road. We can get into that later, but yeah but it's so worth it.

Vanessa Joy:

And recently I had one of the best compliments and I'll pull it up and read it because it really just struck me so much. I wake up almost every morning and my first thing that I do is I go on my phone, I tap on YouTube to look at the comments and I hold my breath.

Matt Jacob:

I literally go. I know how you feel as well. There it comes.

Vanessa Joy:

Yep, yep, well, it's coming, that's so unhealthy there isn't it? Isn't it? Yeah, and you know I really should not rely on a bed and do that, but I do because I'm like let me just get it off, like, rip it off like a bandaid and go about the rest of my day. And then of course I can't go about the rest of my day but I my husband always knows like when I've read a mean tweet yeah oh god, these people that it's something else.

Vanessa Joy:

But on the positive side, I got this one uh, my James, who is a part of. I have an online community called Photo Insiders and James is a part of that. But he also went to Italy and he's coming to Bali and he was thanking me for a recent thing that we did together a workshop and he said, like there's a chance. I would have folded on this dream of photography if it weren't for your education, help and encouragement along the way, even with the butterfly effect, because every wedding I have third and second shot for has been with someone I met at one of your Adorama events that you did back in 2019. I was like there, it is Like that's why there's very little in life that feels better than knowing you've affected someone in a way that will not just change who they are, what they do, their legacy, but they'll go on to change other people, and that's the best thing for me and I do, like you know, feeding my family also, because if I don't do this for free, just for the record, not Mother Teresa.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, let's not talk about that either. People do stuff for free. But, um, let's touch, let's dive into photo insiders then, because that's that seemed to be a big part of your business model. Um, seemed really intriguing. I kind of wanted to press the button and dive into, uh, to become a member. Tell us what it includes, and again, I might just throw in some um slogans that I've seen on there, but to just touch on what it entails.

Vanessa Joy:

You know, today it's two years old. Actually, it's only two years old. So I started Photo Insider for a couple of reasons, very transparently. One I wanted a more regular income because there's nothing static about being freelance. So I was like, okay, if I do a subscription-based something, then, like, I can have some sort of stability in my life, whether it's income or how often I'm creating content. So there was that. But then I also wanted to have a community of people that I paid the most attention to. I get slammed on Instagram and every facet I get random people to find my phone number and call me and show up to my house. I've had that too. What so? Yep, yep.

Matt Jacob:

Oh, we've got to tell that story in a minute. Yeah, carry on.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, thankfully I wasn't there, but you know, I just I get bombarded with a lot and my heart is to help as many people as I can, but by doing that I'm helping no one, right? Because then I'm just like one. I was trying to answer things like really quickly and I'm not really investing into anyone. So I wanted to create a community. That was, dear God, not on Facebook and just somewhere where, like, I can really be at your beck and call, I can answer your questions and then I can ask you next week how it went and we can see if it worked for you and then, if it didn't, let's make some adjustments so that community actually started it on Discord. But nobody knows what Discord is unless you're a gamer. So I moved it onto a private platform. So that's part of it is the community.

Vanessa Joy:

And then, of course, I do educational content. That's produced educational content and a lot of it is just behind the scenes of what I'm actually shooting. So it's real life scenario. But then some of it's instructional, like how to do fake golden hour outside with a flash, and then so you get one of those videos a month and then we go live with a flash and then so you get one of those videos a month and then we go live once a month and lately because I do let the people there dictate what we do I was doing instructional things live, but then we just started doing hot seats live.

Vanessa Joy:

So now someone gets to be in the hot seat every month and we analyze whatever part of their photography or business they would like us to analyze. And it has been so much fun because it's not just me, like you know, telling you everything. I think it's whoever else shows up live too, because you know there's wisdom in many counselors and I don't think I have every right answer. I think there's, you know, wisdom in gaining it from as many people as possible. So that has been a lot of fun. So all of that is part of Photo Insiders and you get kind of a bunch of little bonuses and I work with all my vendors that I work with to give a whole bunch of discounts. So there's, you know, if you're looking to what's a good one that's in there there's like Westcott ones and manfrotto and imagine ai and like that. Really every vendor I work with has given something to photo insiders. Crew there interesting.

Matt Jacob:

I think the community part is so needed, uh, in a disparate online world that we live in, with oh, just everything instagram, youtube, all these public stuff, things that we don't give away for free because we will. We, we're creating stuff and we're willing to put it out there for free, but it's free, right it's? People get all this stuff.

Matt Jacob:

If I look at your youtube channel, there's a lot of incredible content that I know from first-hand experience would have taken a lot to produce and edit and put together for for you know, for people to to use for free. So the the thing, one of the things I noticed on on the photo insiders was to never or at least the the goal was to never feel lost or frustrated. I think behind I think you said behind the camera is basically what you've just explained to me.

Matt Jacob:

I think that's so valuable for photographers both starting out intimate advance. And we talked about mentorship. You talked about how important that was. I could not agree more. I've the biggest struggle I've had in my photography journey is not having a mentor, and I've gone through between five and 10 just off the top of my head and none of them have really worked out or really had. It was very transactional, it wasn't really didn't feel like I had that vested interest in in me and what I wanted to do or understand it.

Vanessa Joy:

So I think that's an absolutely vital part of anyone's journey. For you, I mean, where you are, it's not like you're just starting out. You're very advanced, you're very established, you know what you're doing and you're in a unique part of the world on top of it. So there are very few people that can mentor you correctly.

Matt Jacob:

um, and actually I think when, when the word mentor and I think it's the wrong word and I've been trying to, because I offer mentorships as well and I I went through coaching or teaching or I don't it's actually just a soundboard right, it's just. It's not necessarily right. What are we going to learn from this call or from this meeting? Right, it's more just. I'm thinking about doing this. Do you think it's a good idea? If so, can we just kind of hash it out a bit? In your experience, what do you think? Because anyone else has an outside point of view which is so beneficial for us. We're in our little bubbles and we're in our little photography communities and little Instagram DMs and YouTube haters and lovers, and it's all just the tiny little bubble.

Vanessa Joy:

With cat answers too? Yeah, like just cat answers. Yeah, there's no depth, that's all yeah.

Matt Jacob:

So I think, if anyone's beginning, my point is, at any part of the journey whether you're beginning, intermediate, professional, advanced, I think and like you said to have someone, not necessarily above, but someone outside of that that you can go and throw ideas around with, and then someone who's doing the same with you, right, so you can really have that full experience and pass it forward. That's what this is all about.

Matt Jacob:

It gets so frustrated with photographers who keep things you know, like you talked about when you went when, yeah, when you go to a, an event and a talk, it's like tell me your fucking secrets. Like that's why I'm here. Right, don't don't be a dick about it. Right, we're all in this together. There's plenty enough to go around. Don't worry, you're not going to die by telling. You're not going to lose all your income by telling me how you do things right. But there's just this the gatekeepers.

Vanessa Joy:

Well, everyone's a little bit insecure, like scared insecure not in a battle insecure, Just it's a scary world out there right, and we're all trying to do something that's kind of out of the norm. We're not like company people. Let me go get my 401k, Let me go do what I love to do and convince someone to pay me for it.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, how much fulfillment do you get for that? Which part of I mean looking at from an outside point of view, looking at your business model? Essentially you do so many things and different funnels, or different, I should say, pillars. Which part do you enjoy the most, which brings you the most fulfillment, satisfaction?

Vanessa Joy:

The diversity does right now. I think weddings brought me so much fulfillment for so long. I've been doing them for 24 years maybe at this point, but you know that has its ebbs and flows and right now I am really enjoying the diversity with all of my clients. So I have clients that are I say this lovingly basic bitch brides Like I've shot your wedding before, definitely shot that dress before, love you wholeheartedly. But the people that they are is what drives me right, because when I hit burnout a couple of years ago, I decided for the record again, not just like once, but again I decided that one of the things that I wanted to do is emotionally invest in my clients. So when I started doing that, those even basic bitch weddings I call them like those weddings became fulfilling because I cared about who they were and I cared about grandma and I cared about, you know, their brother that flew in from where he flew in from. That pushed me along.

Vanessa Joy:

And then now I have some higher end clients that we collaborate on Pinterest boards over their engagement session and I actually like that when before I didn't like that, but now I do because, having worked with brands and worked with Hilton, that's whatographing with them because there's a producer and a stylist and they show me what they want and then I know anything they throw at me I can shoot. So I feel the same way with my clients Like you could throw anything at me Photographically, I know how to photograph whatever you want. So now I find that fulfilling, I find that exciting. So give me all the wedding trends, like I got you, I can do anything. So for me that's been really fulfilling all that diversity, doing different things, meeting the demands of what other people would consider to be demanding clients, but me I like it.

Matt Jacob:

Do you think much about a legacy and we talked a bit about scaling something that you can spin off or use as something that you can retire with, or whatever Is a legacy in terms of your body of work, something that you care about or think about?

Vanessa Joy:

You know my body of work. I don't no one's going to like it, except for me and the people who are close to the people in the photographs. But I think that, like that's enough legacy for me. I am posting about this at some point this week. I just wrote the post this morning and scheduled it.

Vanessa Joy:

But at weddings especially, I tend to make sure my self-imposed to-do list, I make sure that I photograph all the elders in the room to-do list, I make sure that I photograph all the elders in the room, because I know that unfortunately, in a couple of years, couple of months, whatever it is, I'm going to be asked for that really nice photo that you took of grandma so that we can have it blown up at her funeral. And, by the way, where's a great place to print that? I know I'm getting that email, getting that phone call. So that's the legacy for me. It's their legacy, it's other people's legacies that I'm preserving, knowing they'll be passed down and they won't remember me. My name won't matter, that's on the back of the album, but to me I don't care, because I know what those photos mean to them and the fact that my photos mean that to them, like that's my legacy. I love knowing that.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, and is that something then you will continue to do? If you do wedding photography for 20 years, is that? Do you see yourself doing that for another 20 years?

Vanessa Joy:

No, because I don't want to be that like old crotchety lady wedding photographer the second, I started to get really grumpy. I'm like just kick me out please. I don't need to be there. You know, but photographing commercial or photographing for consumers is something that I always wanted to keep doing. I never wanted to be that educator that didn't also do it. I just keep becoming so irrelevant really fast. Sorry, my dog needs to join us. Oh, irrelevant, really fast. Sorry, my dog needs to join us.

Matt Jacob:

She oh hi, what's your?

Vanessa Joy:

name. I hate she licks my mouth gross. This is zoe. Hi hi, zoe, don't like that.

Matt Jacob:

Yes, we have four dogs and, uh, they all lick your face. Uh, they're all like barley mongrels. Yeah, that, three of them rescued from the street and one we rescued in Hong Kong and brought with us.

Vanessa Joy:

I love that.

Matt Jacob:

They're all fucked up. Really, they're all just a bit weird but in a cute way.

Vanessa Joy:

No, I definitely got the hypoallergenic dog. As you've noticed, it's necessary.

Matt Jacob:

So you don't have a stroke every time she comes into the room. Yeah, yeah, let's, let's, let's circle back to youtube because I'm interested in, um, what part that has to play in your, your business model, your daily life. There's clearly a lot of work goes into it. I know how much work there goes into it. Where do you get the enjoyment from for that and why do you do it?

Vanessa Joy:

I can't say I get a ton of enjoyment out of YouTube. To be honest, I started creating YouTube videos. Oh my gosh, when was it? Probably 2015. No, it was earlier. No, it was probably 2015. Yeah, 2015. So I created YouTube videos for Adorama, which is a camera store in New York, and they had a big, or still have a big, youtube presence. I created videos I think it was twice a month for them for like five years, for a really long time.

Vanessa Joy:

And in the middle of that, a friend of mine, miguel Quiles, said you need to start doing this for yourself, because one day Adorama is going to not renew your contract. And then what will you have? And I listened to him and thankfully I did, because two years into that Adorama did not renew my contract. They don't keep too many people on there for more than five years. You know they cycle through and there's I want to say there's like maybe three guys that are still there after that, but after that time period, but anyway. So I was like oh great, I'm glad I did that.

Vanessa Joy:

And another friend of mine, jared Pullen from those photo he helped me figure out how to do it and he still is a good soundboard for me to bounce stuff off of. So I started doing it for that very logical reason. I did not have a particular passion to make create my own content like for myself. I did it for other people all the time. But I mean, is anyone ever excited about having to start a new social media platform? Like ever, none of us are, I don't think.

Matt Jacob:

Even posting photos you know?

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, it's just Now we've got to do.

Matt Jacob:

We don't have to, but I was. I did a post. I do one photo post a week on Instagram and now it's just a whole thing, because I want to do a carousel. So now I'm editing more photos than just one photo so I can fit them all in the same post, which is actually good exercise, because I want to pair photos and that's a new thing for me.

Vanessa Joy:

But yeah, it's a whole thing. You did really well. Actually I don't know if you know this. So when you posted, there was a woman who was looking into or sitting in a window and you had cropped it just to the window, but then, as you went, you realized it was part of another photo and I was like, wow, that's great.

Matt Jacob:

But it's a love-hate relationship, I mean by the way you're talking about it, it's the same for you, right? It's a necessary tool. Well, not a necessary, but a good tool.

Vanessa Joy:

It's the top of the funnel. You know, and I hate to say it that way, but I am very logical, I'm very marketing-brained and you know people kind of hate that about me or love that about me, but that's just how I think. And YouTube is one of the big funnels, you know, do I love at the same time, like I'm going to put quality education there, and it's not like to get the rest of this education you need to buy my whatever. No, like I love the fact that you know what? There are people that cannot afford education right now and I can give good quality education for free for them Wonderful. But at the same time, I can't feed my kids with things that are free. So it is part of a larger funnel and you know getting brand deals there and you know just how I pay for the editors that do the editing for me and the shooters that photograph for me, and I like to. I like employing as many people as I can because I enjoy helping people out that way too.

Matt Jacob:

I like employing as many people as I can, because I enjoy helping people out that way too. We have a lot in common. Yeah, me too when it comes to YouTube and this is the last question I'm going to ask about YouTube, because I don't love to talk about it too much for, basically, the reasons we've just talked about, but I am always interested in hearing someone who's big on YouTube and what, in their experience, what the worst comment they've ever had has been. I was just such a. It's such an interesting question because I just I have a collection.

Vanessa Joy:

I can't, you know, because it's like you have to think of categories. I've got the ones where it's, you know, do you even own a hairbrush? Or you know you're showing too much or you're showing too little, or you know how inappropriate you made your model dress or like I don't know. So like, that's that category. And then the other category is you know how I'm just such a shill because I, you know, get paid sometimes or I can't have an opinion. You can't tell me anything about this Canon camera because you're a Canon Explorer of Light. I'm like OK, okay, that means I can't have opinion. Or my super favorites are the ones who like and I'm not a snot like this, but like you don't know who I am, and you just said that the ones are like what was it? You know what? You just sound like a newbie and you just need to pick up a camera and learn, learn, learn, sweetie.

Vanessa Joy:

Who are these people?

Matt Jacob:

I just, it's just. Yeah, I mean you're doing the right thing laughing at it, but it does. It does dig. Oh, I don't always. No, it does get.

Vanessa Joy:

You can take the you know girl out of Jersey, but you can't take the Jersey out of the girl Like I pipe back If somebody is flat out wrong, and God forbid. They made a grammar mistake in there Like you are.

Matt Jacob:

you were going down. Have you had any legal battles or legal issues with either YouTube or your photos or copyright?

Vanessa Joy:

I have. I just did a video about it recently. I'm talking about how I did sue someone once and did win a $10,000 award. I think it was either 10 or 20, it's that long ago. I can't even remember because I split it down the middle with my lawyer. That's how we got paid. So I was like, wait, did I win 20 and then only got 10, or was it we won 10 and I got five? Like I just lost track. But yeah, so I've definitely done that.

Matt Jacob:

Are you able to talk about it?

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, yeah, I mean you could watch the long story, but I had a wedding venue who had some photos of mine that I did provide them for social media, very specifically said you can put these on social media or even your website. Please credit me. If you want to use them for print or anything else, please contact me. If you want to use them for print or anything else, please contact me. And then someone was like hey, I saw your photo in a magazine. I knew it was yours. The second I saw it and I'm like, first of all, great compliment. Second of all, what? And they used the photo for a print ad, full page print ad in a magazine. And, yeah, they were not allowed. They made excuses.

Vanessa Joy:

I sued them as well as the magazine company, and then, uh, settled out of court and, um, you know, it's like I there's a lot of comments on there and I kind of agree with all of them and it was my mindset at the time too, and still is my mindset like should I stand up for photographers copyright and, know, make a point out of this for other artists? Yeah, I probably should. You know, is it nice to win that much for you know, a photograph and not really doing anything else? Yeah, probably. But you know, did I ruin that relationship with the hall? Did I ruin that relationship with the magazine? You know, because those are consequences of winning any legal battle, is you ruin relationships. So you know, I don't, I don't know.

Matt Jacob:

How good was that relationship going to be, though, if they're going to take advantage?

Vanessa Joy:

most booked wedding halls, you know. So if I had a good relationship with them could I book a ton work, work with them. Yeah, maybe it would have been worth, you know, a hundred thousand dollars, not just ten thousand dollars, I don't know, it's hypothetical, this is if the uh, what is it if the tree falls in the forest and no one is out here?

Matt Jacob:

it doesn't make a sound yeah, but then you've got to think about your principles right more than anything else, and and where do you stand on that? Have principles. What were the comments saying about it? Then you said you agree with the comments. Which side were they on?

Vanessa Joy:

All of it. All of it. For the most part, they were erring on. I did the right thing and yeah. But yeah, let's see. Yeah, actually, someone insulted me, called me a liar in that YouTube video because I couldn't remember if it was 10,000 or 20,000. So they said well, the validity of your story is completely thrown out the window now because you can't remember that you should have done more research before making your video. And now we can't believe anything else you say.

Matt Jacob:

People just need to get lives.

Vanessa Joy:

How do you have?

Matt Jacob:

the time and energy to make comments like that.

Vanessa Joy:

I don't know, I don't know.

Matt Jacob:

Why are?

Vanessa Joy:

you watching a long air.

Matt Jacob:

Speaking of energy and you mentioned burnout a couple of times you've had burnout. I think it can be very relevant to my audience. A lot of people I speak to on this show. They have experienced it and they don't necessarily know how A they either got out of it or B to prevent it again, because, like we talked about at the beginning, this is an individual kind of pursuit. It's photography. It's like, if I don't take that job, when am I going to be paid next? Right, and when can I scale it, et cetera, et cetera. So we know how we get into it, but tell us about your most recent experience, how you maybe you've got some tips and tricks of how you get out of it and maybe how you go about preventing it.

Vanessa Joy:

I actually do. I'm surprised people don't notice how they got into it or how to prevent it and then how they got out of it, because I think every time I go through burnout, those are the two points I remember the most. Maybe I'm just protecting myself and I don't feel like remembering all the times I was in the fetal position on the floor. But the getting out of it not that it's easy, but it's simple To me, it's always been. Not that it's easy, but it's simple To me, it's always been. What can I micro focus on right now? To stop looking at the macro right, or to stop even being so self-centered as to what was me. So I once was, you know, involved, making sure I'm really involved in the people that I'm photographing. Other times it was when I learned flash photography. It's like I am so burned out and bored because I'm really good at this natural light thing. Let me do something different. And sometimes it is those wedding trends. That's definitely been a new one. And then when you feel it coming on and this is something I think everybody can feel, it coming on like you. Just you don't want to walk out that door or you wish you were able to go to whatever party that all of your friends and family are going to and you can't. You kind of see it coming. But when you see it coming, I've decided.

Vanessa Joy:

One of the things that keeps us going in a career for so long is understanding that your why changes and it's allowed to. So we've all probably heard that tech talk right, the why. Gotta find your why. And that's the center of your universe, the center of your marketing strategy. It's all about your why.

Vanessa Joy:

When I first heard that which I think that TED talk came out probably 20 years ago at this point TED Talk came out probably 20 years ago at this point I remember thinking, okay, well, my why is, whatever it was. I was married, I think at the time, or dating, you know no kids. So my why was, let's just say, to take over the world. And that was my why. And then, when I got pregnant, I remember being kind of aghast at the thought that that wasn't going to be my why anymore, because you know, ew, my why is going to be the kid. I'm going to be that mom that just throws everything away and only cares about their kid and cancels plans because of their kid.

Vanessa Joy:

Like, and you know, when you're single and you don't have kids, like you're disgusted by this and I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it's just that's your life circumstance, your worldview at that time and it took me a while to realize that your whys can change and probably should change, and that's OK. It doesn't take away who you are as an artist or as a human being, it just shows your evolution. So I think, embracing that when you see burnout coming, like you know what, maybe I need a shift in my why and starting to evaluate that again and maybe correct course.

Matt Jacob:

Very, very interesting, and how much of the self-care and internal health, internal practices, habits go into that process, or just the normal process of staying as good a photographer as you can be.

Vanessa Joy:

Matt, I said I had kids. So I wake up, I check the nasty YouTube comments and then the screenings, so there is no.

Matt Jacob:

So you have online screaming.

Vanessa Joy:

There's no in-person screaming and then clients screaming. No, I was just listening to someone say how they meditate 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes at night. That is not me. I'd like it to be me. I'd love to be more prayerful and reading and all of it, but to me it just comes when it comes. So, that being said, I have done a much better job at self-care prayerful and reading and all of it, but to me it just comes when it comes. So, that being said, I have done a much better job at self-care, like physical self-care. I just celebrated 52 straight weeks of making sure I worked out at least once a week, every single week, even while traveling during 30 some odd days for that year. So I do work on that a lot and what I'm eating, because I found burnout comes a lot faster when you physically do not like yourself and you physically feel sluggish and weak. For me, weak is a big thing. I don't like to feel weak.

Matt Jacob:

Especially with weddings, and you need that energy and you need that strength, mental and physical right. It all starts in the gut. Everything starts in the gut, doesn't it? Creativity starts, you know, I've certainly personal experience like just being a better craftsman or photographer, whatever your thing, is Okay. If you eat better, that means you, you will. Okay, You're probably going to exercise more because you just either want to or you feel more energy, and then all of that combined, you're just going to be a better person and a better artist. It's just, it's simple maths. It's just very difficult to do, especially when traveling, right?

Vanessa Joy:

It is, it really is, and then trying to be present when I'm home and I don't like work. I can't, actually I can't even say I don't like working out in the morning. The like is not even a part of it. I physically do not work out well in the morning because I have cortisol level issues. So if I work out in the morning like I'm done, I would sleep the rest of the day if I could, but I can't, so then my mental capacity isn't there. So I really need to work out in the afternoons.

Matt Jacob:

Interesting and you've got a lot going on in the mornings with YouTube haters and kids screaming anyway.

Vanessa Joy:

So that's enough to take. Yeah, and my best rebuttals are when I'm snappy in the morning, oh, youtube.

Matt Jacob:

All right, we're wrapping up. I want to kind of finish with some tips of the trade. I don't want to use veteran because you're a very young lady, but you've been doing wedding photography for a long time right, a couple of decades, a couple of decades.

Matt Jacob:

Give us some. I know it's difficult to ask when someone gives away a lot of education on a free platform like YouTube, but things like body language, secrets, your favorite equipment, how to use Flash especially I don't think people really it can be very overwhelming, right? Oh, I've got a light to think about. So are there any really quick tips and tricks you can share with us on any of those types of?

Vanessa Joy:

things. Yeah Well, let's go with the Flash one, because Flash tends to be really overwhelming. But the first thing I'd love people to try when they're first loading flash is to do that fake golden hour thing, because it's actually the easiest thing in the world. So all you do is you set your camera exposure for a photo, just like you're taking a natural light photo. However you do that, you plop a flash.

Vanessa Joy:

If it's really bright outside, you're going to want a really powerful flash. So I do suggest you try this at like dusk or right before or early in the morning and in the shade. But you plop a flash right behind your subject and then you know, maybe 45 degrees, so it's at a frame shooting to the back of your subject's head. You put an orange gel on it and you set it on auto. If your flash doesn't have auto, set it on half power and start from there and it like instantly transforms your photo. And it's the easiest flash technique in the entire world because you can kind of screw it up and it still will look good because it's just backlight, you know. It just needs to be a little bit stronger or a little bit less intense. So that's my favorite flash one and it's in my book actually, and I have a free youtube video on it also. If you go to my youtube channel and just type or look under the flash photography playlist, it's actually probably one of the most viewed ones too.

Matt Jacob:

It says easy flash photography walks you right through it super simple yeah, and if people are thinking about getting flash, what would you suggest? I know you use pro photo, like me, and we've got the canon cameras and lenses and stuff. If people are thinking about getting flash, what would you suggest? I know you use Profoto, like me, and we've got the Canon cameras and lenses and stuff. If people are on a budget or they want to just try out a bit of flash, what would you suggest?

Vanessa Joy:

You know what you do. Just sage sage old advice Buy it used. Shocking thought, I know. So you have not so great, or rent it right. You have not so great equipment that when it comes to flash you really want to have good equipment, because you're learning and you're going to get frustrated and things aren't going to work technologically and you need to make sure it's something that's you and not a piece of garbage equipment you're using. Potentially it just will save you a ton of headaches. So if you can buy used pro photo, it's just going to be solid. I have lights that I've had for like 15 years. I still have them. They still work perfectly.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, there's always a way, especially in the US, and you've got Adorama they sell used equipment, b&h Photo sells used equipment, ebay, mbpp, which is actually uk based, but they ship everywhere. I mean there's loads of facebook marketplace.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, it's just so, and there's someone always selling stuff. Um, worst case, I mean it wouldn't flash, but you could use a lamp, you know, at least just just to experiment with lighting, right? But, um, yeah, cool, thank you so much, um, I think I could talk to you for hours. I can't wait to have you in bali. Please let me know, um, I will let you get on with the rest of the evening. It's probably bedtime, so I just want to say thank you very much for for talking with me been super fun, had a great laugh and, uh, I wish you all the very best with parenting with speaking with weddings and with general youtube haters and likers, um.

Matt Jacob:

But yeah, thanks for joining me. It's been been so much fun awesome.

Vanessa Joy:

I will talk to you soon, matt all right cheers.

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Matt Jacob

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