The MOOD Podcast

Blurring the Boundaries: Doron Gild, EO78

• Matt Jacob

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"Photography is an art form that requires intention, creation, and a willingness to make photos, not just take photos."

Doron Gild is a photographer whose work blurs the boundaries between fine art and commercial photography. Known for his ability to create visually striking and emotionally resonant portraits, Doron’s images tell layered stories that reflect the individuality of his subjects. From editorial portraiture to high-concept family shoots, his work embodies a unique mix of precision, creativity, and authenticity.

Our conversation covered:

  • Transitioning from 'taking” to “making' photographs. 
  • The psychology of portraiture.
  • The concept of 'portraits within portraits'.
  • Balancing artistic integrity with commercial demands.
  • Candid experiences working with Bon Jovi and other celebrities. 
  • The meticulous process behind his shoots. 
  • Navigating the impact of AI. 
  • The importance of personal connections. 
  • Embracing challenges and perseverance. 

Find Doron Gild's work on her channels:
Website: www.dorongild.com
Instagram: @dorongildphotography
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Matt Jacob:

Welcome along to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation one frame at a time. I'm your host, matt Jacob, and thank you for joining me today in this conversation. In this episode, I'm joined by Doron Guild, a photographer whose work stands at the intersection of fine art and commercial photography. Known for his distinctive ability to capture the rawness of human emotion and the artistry of everyday objects, doron has built a career that challenges conventional boundaries in the visual arts, with an impressive portfolio spanning editorial portraiture and advertising. His work is as diverse as it is thought-provoking. Our conversation delves into his creative journey, from his beginnings in Israel to establishing himself in the bustling art scene of New York. We discuss his methods for finding authenticity in his subjects, the psychology of portraiture and the intricate balance between artistic integrity and commercial demands. Daron shares insights into his philosophy on creativity, the challenges of navigating a rapidly changing industry and the unique techniques that make his photography so compelling. This episode really offers a fascinating exploration of the art of making pictures, not just taking them, and I'm excited for you to join us as we uncover the mind behind the lens. So now I bring you Doron Guild.

Matt Jacob:

Doron Guild, welcome to the the Moo Podcast. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me, matt. I appreciate it. Another excellent photographer who I found in New York. There's so many of you incredible artists over there. What took you to New York, or have you always been?

Doron Gild:

there. No, I moved when I was 19. I moved from Israel when I was 19, which is now 26 years ago, and I came to New York to be a cinematographer, which did not work out in my favor by choice, but it just didn't happen. So, but everything else just fell into place slowly but surely.

Matt Jacob:

Interesting. Well, we'll talk about your journey in a minute, but there was something that really kind of stuck out to me when I was looking a little bit more deeply into your background and your work and one of the ways I think your images were described or at least your style was portraits within portraits, right Layers and layers of stories. Can you elaborate on kind of that process and that concept that you're so well known for?

Doron Gild:

So I think that in the beginning, when I was first starting off and figuring out my voice and figuring out what I like to do, I was seeing a lot of photographers that just turned me on, like Arnold, newman and Seliger and Leibowitz, and all of these people were making these grandiose photographs of people which you could just easily take the person out and it would still be the same feeling and the same portrait. So I've always wanted to just make photographs that, no matter what was going on, you would find out who the person is, over and over and over again. And that's the space and that's the person and that's the whatever's on their table, whatever's around them. I mean, my room right now is a great example of fuck all but either way. But that's always, it's always been, it's been a thing.

Doron Gild:

And slowly but surely, I got to the point where I was like I have to make this moment as opposed to just find it, because I used to go when I first started off. Um, I used to go to locations with a four by five, two sheets of film and two, two polaroids, and if I got it, I got it. If I didn't get it, I wasn't good enough, and obviously that's ridiculous, but it helped me figure out how to slow down and help me figure out how to think, and help me figure out how to look at specific stuff in order to be able to describe what I was feeling and or seeing.

Matt Jacob:

And where do you think that the seminal moment was for you in terms of that style? I mean, what sticks out immediately to a layman, I guess would be your unique and very intriguing style, which is just fascinating. And then knowing, as a photographer, what goes into getting that style and creating those stories from still images is what is really sparks curiosity. But where did you know? We talked about inspirations and we can kind of that that's kind of public knowledge to who your big inspirations are but was really that where it came from?

Doron Gild:

you know, just studying other artists no, I think that what, realistically, it came from trying to find what was passionate for me and what and what drove me, and it was always portraits and it was always people. But I got to the point where just making pictures of people was kind of boring. I felt like anybody could do what I was doing. I felt like I was like an imposter in some way. So I had to figure out a way to bring into the ideas and bring in myself and bring in the making part of photographs. So I don't take photographs. I can't.

Doron Gild:

I, I can't like. I have too many rigs, too many lights, too many big cameras. I have to make the photograph. I have to be very specific, I have to be intentional, which is totally different than the way I used to go, where I'm walking around with a four by five on my shoulder and like let's see what we find. So, from going from taking photographs to making photographs, from going from taking photographs to making photographs I think that school did that for me, even though I think I would have gotten there eventually. But I went to the School of Visual Arts in New York and it just got to a point where I didn't feel like I was any good and I needed to figure out what was good. So, slowly but surely, make making.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I think that's such a big delineator between you know, good photographs and excellent photographs, or good photographers and excellent photographers. Is the intention behind it right? And do you get much kickback or criticism with the way you? I mean, I know I do, and so I'm sure you do, but criticisms in terms of how you set images up and in that creation side of it.

Doron Gild:

I suppose I mean at this stage, the criticism I get at this stage is only from myself and it comes down to way way before I make the photographs, because I can't afford to make the wrong photograph at this point and I make them for specific people, for specific reasons. So it's all very intentional. Obviously, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And obviously people who like straight photography, or purists, so to speak, and just go out and find important things or fascinating things, then they'll be like, what is this photograph for? Like, why are you making these pictures? So it's beyond being my creative outlet, beyond being my art, it's also specifically for something or somebody.

Doron Gild:

I've always been stuck between commercial work and artwork. I have two artists, two artistic for commercial work, two commercial for artistic work. So I've been like in this weird gray area of trying to figure out where I belong. So even if somebody says, oh, it's going well, let's hope it keeps going, I mean it's like the career is like 25 years in, so let's just make sure that we can still make a living and still make pictures.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, that's a success. Right there, you're still around, still making a living and still make pictures. That's a success. Right there, you're still around, still making a living from what you love doing. It's crazy.

Doron Gild:

It's hard, it's hard and it's scary. The industry changes every fucking day. Oh my goodness.

Matt Jacob:

We'll get into that a bit later.

Doron Gild:

Now I'm indoors.

Matt Jacob:

I'm going to de-robe Now. You're sweating because you're under pressure.

Doron Gild:

Yeah, look at this, I'm talking about myself and all that shit. It's weird.

Matt Jacob:

It's so weird. Thanks for doing it, we all appreciate it, but why you talked about doing it for individual people as well as groups? Commercial for art? One of the specific individuals I've seen you photograph for for commercial purposes was, uh, bon jovi, who was such a well, still is a hero of mine, but you know, I grew up listening to to him. I just wanted, just from a self-interest what a fucking darling really. Tell me, tell me about that shoot.

Doron Gild:

I couldn't. Well, it was four years worth of shooting. I did everything for him for a while yeah, like once. So I was hired to do all his wine stuff. A friend of mine did his PR for his wine stuff and I was hired to.

Doron Gild:

Well, he called and he's like you look really expensive, Can we afford this? And I'm like I don't know what do you want to spend? So we got to a point where I was like let's just, let's just fucking do this and give me what you want and we'll make great pictures. We went and we went up to the Hamptons after I sketched out ideas and I scouted and I do all like the process of the game, but it's all very intentional. So I go out to New Jersey, I go out to the Hamptons, I find the right spots and we spent. I think that we did two, three campaigns for the wine. I did a family shoot for him, I did portrait shoots like headshots for him, I did Christmas cards for him. We just ended up always just making pictures together and then I got too expensive.

Matt Jacob:

For even for Bon Jovi.

Doron Gild:

Wow, yeah, I guess it was a matter of like what he wanted to spend on and what he wanted at the end, but it wasn't like a bad thing. We still chit chat, we still text. Like he's really a darling, him, and his like his whole family, they're just. They were very welcoming, they were very sweet. Whenever we were making work he was there with us. It wasn't like a prima donna kind of like let's walk in for the shoot and leave after five minutes. He was like cleaning the floors and shit. It was special.

Matt Jacob:

Wow, I want to meet him. I might have to just keep tapping you up.

Doron Gild:

introduce me, introduce me like a little he's a darling he really is, and he's busy as fuck all the time crazy yeah, I guess these guys they're just.

Matt Jacob:

They love what they do, right, um, or either that or they spend all their money and need to keep earning, but I don't know he's.

Doron Gild:

He's frugal in a way where it just lets him do whatever he wants. Like him and his son started a wine business and he travels and he does. He opens a soup kitchen, like he's really like.

Matt Jacob:

I'm just gonna do my thing what about you and you doing your things? Get back to um, to you in photography. What give me um, give me a high level overview of kind of why, why you started it in the first place, what is it about photography that really captured your attention and, 25 years later, why that passion must still be there. But why do you?

Doron Gild:

It was never not there. It was never not there, like when I was six, it was there. I got money for a birthday or something. I went and I bought a little 110 Kodak you know those really cute ones. It was blue, it was adorable and it was always something that I could do and it was always something that was there Even before I could really do it properly. It was always something that I knew that I got this one, which is why I wanted to go into cinematography. But getting into that space was really rough because basically you start at the very bottom of anything, which means that you're doing fuck, all that's got to do with cinematography. You're bringing coffee, you're moving trays, you're 15 hour days in the freezing cold and you're nowhere near being a boss and I like being a boss. So I just decided that that was enough and I picked up. I have had an F3 since I was 14. And it's always been with me and I just started taking it more seriously.

Matt Jacob:

And then you took the formal education route.

Doron Gild:

Yeah, well, I started working at a camera store really close to the School of Visual Arts and all the students would come in and I'm like this is awesome, they're all pretty cool, they're all doing things that I love. So I started taking classes and figuring things out, got really friendly with everybody over there and just became part of my life and then I started school. So I started school about two years after I'd already spent time in the studios over there in the dark rooms and all that stuff and I just became second nature and the work started getting better and smarter and a little bit less snappy.

Matt Jacob:

How would you, would you recommend the? I mean, I don't speak to many photographers that took that formal route. Maybe I need to widen my network, but nowadays it seems like everyone's self-taught Is that you know. How do you compare what you did compared to what you could do now?

Doron Gild:

Well, I think that the most that I learned in photography was being on set with photographers that I worked with, plain and simple. But I learned about art in photo school. I learned how to think about art, I learned how to think critically and I learned how to take criticism, besides the fact that I learned how to sculpt and paint and all these other wonderful things that I wouldn't have had access to. But, to be perfectly frank, nowadays, if not only you know what you want and you can do what you want and you can get on sets with other photographers, that's where it is A hundred percent, A hundred percent.

Matt Jacob:

A hundred percent, A hundred percent. That kind of art education, though, really sculpted your process at least, if not your style. Is that correct? Tell us, because you sketch a lot of your concepts out on paper before you even put it together for a camera. Tell us what your process would look like if you went to shoot a family shoot or something.

Doron Gild:

Tell us what your process would look like if you went to shoot a family shoot or something. So it's really involved and it takes. I guess it'd take weeks to do a family shoot, for example. We do the first initial conversation, we start to get to know. People know each other. I'm having trouble with my speaking and breathing. Just bear with me. I guess I'm a little nervous.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, and breathing. Just bear with me, I guess I'm a little nervous. Yeah right, take your time.

Doron Gild:

Take as long as you need Initial phone call and we start figuring out what people are like, who they want, what they're expecting, and I go and I meet them for the first time, wherever we're going to be photographing, so I could scout the location. That's the first scout I go and I snap away at all my favorite little moments Like I'll look for no, this is a good little rectangle, that's a great little rectangle, so I'll snap away, snap away, snap away. But and obviously we're chit-chatting as we're going along I'm finding out about what they like, what they do. Little words about like, seriously, like a word would be enough for me to start thinking of an idea. So we keep talking, keep talking.

Doron Gild:

By the time that I'm leaving, I either have a basic idea or know that I'll be able to find it within the rectangles slash photographs that I took. I come home, I look through the stuff and I start thinking about ideas again, personality-wise, within the space that I have because I have a limited amount of space, or a limited amount of opportunities, if you will and I think of the ideas and slowly but surely, I find a way to put the action or the story into what's already existing, even if I have to change the setup as far as moving furniture or adding drapes or whatever it is, and then I go back and I make plates. So I literally go and I'll find my frame and I'll take five pictures, basically, and I'll go home and I'll start sketching in my notebook. So I sketch the people in my notebook and then I photograph it. I want to show you, let me see if I can show you. I'll sketch them in my notebook, for example, like literally like little people doing random shit, and then I'll put it into Photoshop, cut it all out and put it into the frame that I've already photographed.

Doron Gild:

So by the time that the client sees it, it's already like this is what we're going to make. So the plan is so. This is like I would say, two weeks in, after I've already gone back and re-photographed and sketched and all this stuff, but two weeks into the process they can see the ideas, they approve the ideas and they like where my brain's going. Then we start producing them, where it's putting a team together, hair and makeup, clothes, props, anything that I would need. The crazier they let me go, the more expensive it gets.

Matt Jacob:

What a wonderful cultivating process to really start from the ground up, and it's such a niche kind of like thing, like who fucking does this for families?

Doron Gild:

Literally I produce it like I would produce an ad job and I spend no expense, like mentally or time-wise, I really spend like a solid month on every client.

Matt Jacob:

Where did this process come from? Was it a feeling-out process that was innate and kind of organic to you, or did you see someone do something very similar and go? I love the way that's.

Doron Gild:

No, it's not something that I've saw anywhere, but I think that the circumstances kept driving it into more and more like the sketching part I'm like okay, I have to tell them what I'm thinking I can't just well, I can show them what I'm thinking instead of just telling them, because they don't know that I'm capable and or like.

Doron Gild:

Sometimes the ideas are really wacky, like or visually like I can. I can explain it visually, but you don't really have to understand what it is conceptually yet. So it's. I think, that it's just out of necessity and out of the need for the clients to trust me and out of the need for the clients to be impressed by the process in order to justify the fact that I'm charging them an hour. You know, then it is. I'm spending time like, beyond the physical shooting the day of, beyond the post-production, beyond all that stuff, I spend a good solid two weeks of physical working, working on any, on any given client. So it's worth it and it's expensive what are the clients, um, looking for?

Matt Jacob:

I mean, obviously, before you kind of get a job, before they hire you, they would see your work and see what you've done before. So what? I always loved about.

Doron Gild:

so I've had shows and the shows, to me, have never been oh, let's sell pictures off the wall. It's more of a showcase. So people would come and they would see the work and they go. Oh, my God, I love this, I want one of my own. And I'm like, okay, let's make some. And as a bonus you don't just get one, you get five. So we go and we make five pictures during the day of shooting and they get the art piece and it's not somebody else's family on the wall, it's theirs. So it comes from a an artist's perspective.

Matt Jacob:

If you're making five, or even if you're just making one. How important is the narrative or how much time do you spend, you know, working on the narrative and the storytelling? Is that really what clients love and what differentiates you from from others, or is it more the aesthetic that they they enjoy?

Doron Gild:

I think that they love the aesthetic and that's such an easy thing to grab onto because it's really pretty, it's very vibrant, everybody looks really beautiful. I make sure that nobody's like not the best they can look, and then on top that, like it's. These people are doing weird shit that they wouldn't do but they can relate to. Like these aren't such far fetched ideas, but I find a way to make them like way, way out there. So these are skiing people, these are, these are gardeners, these are Dutch people. Like it's all, like it all comes into the idea of who they are.

Doron Gild:

But I just go and I nudge it as far as I can to the absurd so we can all make work together and then it's like a fun adventure because it's not normal for them, but they know we're talking about them. You know what I mean. So I'm not just walking up and being like, oh, let's find this little spot. We're intentionally talking about them, intentionally making work about them, and then it becomes a piece that they can hang on the wall and not only do they have a memory of the day, but if somebody thought about us and put it on the wall, you know what I mean.

Matt Jacob:

how do you then yeah, I'm trying to kind of get an idea how you imbue meaning if in, even if that's a thing or not a thing, because you're essentially making it for other people, but also for yourself, and there has to be, it has to be more layered than and people hire you because they're more layered than just a headshot or a family portrait, right? How do you imbue that, those layers in both technically but also metaphorically, in your images?

Doron Gild:

well, I think that because I'm making my work for somebody else, because, like, obviously, like I'm not hanging these pictures up on my wall, but I, but I get to experience, like, photography to me is this act of making, you know, and the act of thinking, and the act of creating and the act of showing, for sure, like, obviously, we're making this for people to see.

Doron Gild:

So this is my work, which I then I'm making for somebody else. So that's why it's so much fun, because they really let me loose, and they let me loose when, in relation to them, like, if something's not right, they're not going to be. Okay, let's make this picture. Like they have plenty of time to decide whether or not the work is or the ideas relate to them, whether they want to be in that circumstance and want to be in that situation. Then I give them the breathing space. But once it's decided, we're all in, literally, we're going to get different clothes, we're going to do all this stuff, we're going to have to shop, we're going to do all these things. The kids have to fucking get all in line and understand, which is a great thing to have the sketches for, because the kids are like, oh, this is what I'm going to be doing.

Doron Gild:

It's always like acting for them right know, but it's always like acting for them, right, yeah, and it's, and it's really like I think that's also something that has to do with the type of people who hire me is that it's they're performative and they want to be documented in that way. You know what I mean. They want to be out like I I don't I won't do this with celebrities because they're like I'm not working right now. This is not okay. Forget this. I don't see it happening with celebrities on that level, as opposed to John and Dorothea, for example. But that was because. So John and Dorothea came out of. First of all, this is when I was first starting the business.

Doron Gild:

As far as the family stuff and they have which I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about, but it's not really.

Doron Gild:

It's kind of innocuous they have a wall in their New Jersey house which is lined with black and white 8x10s and it's a photograph of the kids, of their family, and each one is made by a different photographer, from like Herb Ritz to Annie Leibovitz, to everybody. It's a huge line of pictures, and everybody who photographs John that he likes, he asks them to come back and make a Herb Ritz style photograph. Okay, because Herb Ritz was the first person to photograph the babies and so it was a kind of a whole big thing. So it's their Herb Ritz wall and I came in and I did this thing and I but I said to him, look, I'm not going to bring the whole shebang just to make the one picture. Let's do more family stuff. And he's like sure. So we went and we made five pictures and we recreated a picture that they made with, and then I elaborated on it, we did a car picture, but it all came down to the picture of the kids that they hung on the wall, on the Herbert Herbert's wall, which is so flattering.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, that must be very, very flattering. Yeah, do you do much celebrity work now Only when hired and is hiring? I mean, tell me about the commercial side of what you do and the challenges I'm sure are.

Doron Gild:

Terrifying.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, Tell us a little bit more about that. And even with the experience that you have and the challenges that you still have today, even with the changes that are going on in the industry as much as just you being a photographer- yeah, it's nonstop.

Doron Gild:

It's like there's never been a place where I'm like, oh, I'm okay now. It's always been like a fight to get to what's going on. I have an agent and now I'm a part of an agency, like there's a whole. The more I can get the word out, the better. I just put a huge portfolio together, like full printed portfolio that I haven't for like years. But I want to bring it back to what it used to be, because it's hard to get the jobs, because everybody's out and everybody's looking and there's so many of us and there's so many ways to get to where you're going now and now, fucking ai not that I'm worried about that as far as this type of work, but a lot, of, a lot of the other facets of work have gone like I don't do still life anymore, because why? Ai can do it just as well and better. I mean, it's all out there already.

Doron Gild:

But I think that the struggle is always. I always feel like, okay, this job is going to be the one that's going to make it roll through and it's going to be fine now and it works and it's great. And then I'm like where's the next one? And you have to make a living, you have to like pay bills. Thank god, my wife is amazing, so she definitely takes care of us.

Doron Gild:

But it's hard as a creative, as an artist, as a and that specifically, my type of work is not for everybody and it's not something that I can just get up and do. I can't be like, oh, let's go make a picture. Yeah, it's not something that I can just get up and do. I can't be like, oh, let's go make a picture. It's a process and it's expensive and it's assistance and it's gear. I've gotten to the place where I'm like, fuck, what have I done? But I grew up wanting to make the big pictures. I grew up wanting to make the pictures that blew my brain away when I was looking at them. So that's what I'm trying to do and I'm paying for it.

Matt Jacob:

How many times have you given up or thought about giving up?

Doron Gild:

I have never. But I've been asked to what? Really? Yeah, because if you're a family, if you've got kids, you've got stuff. You've got to figure it out. You know, I thought you got to figure it out, you know.

Matt Jacob:

I thought you meant on a commercial level. Oh, no, no, no, no.

Doron Gild:

People, everybody works with me, it's fun, Like, but we need more of them. I think it really comes down to luck, perseverance, talent and just plain security, because who would do this to themselves? Who would get to the point? Who does this?

Matt Jacob:

Wait, we're trying to inspire a generation of photographers. Come on, fantastic.

Doron Gild:

I'll teach you how to make pictures. Let's do this, I love it. I'll bring you to my sets and we'll do the best we can, but it's fucking hard. I keep remembering a lecture at the School of Visual Arts and one of my professors saying 10% of you are going to be photographers, 1% of you are going to make money making photography. And we're talking to like 100 people in a room, which means that one of us is going to do it when it's all said and done, and this is like coming from a really well-known agent. This is real and it's not untrue, because when I look at the people around us at the time, some of them are doing their best, some of them are not. Some of them are curators now. Some of them are art directors now. Some of them are massage therapists now.

Doron Gild:

Like it doesn't, like it was the experience, and that's that I can't. Well, what can I say? I love it, and that's that I can't. Well, what can I say? I love it. I don't know how to do anything else. I don't want to do anything else, but it's fucking difficult and it's going to be difficult forever. Like I'm not retiring. There's nothing to retire from. I love my life. But it's like it's hard. I you know you gotta and even with the making of the photographs is hard when it's all said and done like I don't just go around and snap away. I don't just, it's not, it's not the way I do things. So maybe it's just the path specifically that I've taken.

Matt Jacob:

I'll encourage anybody to make pictures, but yeah, it's easy to make pictures that you think will be popular. Well, it's not easy, but it's easier. You know it's. You know, look at social media, it's. Every, every other photo is exactly the same. Um, people, people, it depends what your intent is, depends what your goals are. Right, it's? It's so challenging to you know, I'm super inspired by the fact that you've just you're stubborn in a good way that you know, this is what I want to do. This is my style. If people don't like it, they don't like it. If people love it, then great, and I'll work with that niche. How have you had to evolve, though? Maybe not technically, but just maybe in a business sense or personally? How have you had to evolve, though? Maybe not technically, but just maybe in a business sense or personally? How have you had to evolve with those challenges over the last?

Doron Gild:

Actually, oddly enough, it is technically, because I guess, business-wise I learn every time and the agents are the best way to go about things. But I have to learn how to think out of my own box and I have to learn how to make the work that not as not just for myself and commercial work, for example. So you have to do it in the studio, you have to do it brighter, you have to do it with a smile, as in they have to be smiling. So it's like they like the way I tell stories, so they'll hire me. But they still need it to be bright and sunshiny and great. But nobody's going to hire me to do a running in the field with a back leg and all that. It's just not what they would hire me for. But they still need it to feel good on a billboard. So it needs to be bright and acceptable.

Doron Gild:

I always saw myself as the person who would do all the movie posters. That was the ambition for a long time. But it was such a tough place to crack, considering there are like eight people who do it fantastically well and it's like the ladder in there is more difficult than I can deal with, I guess, but it's not something that I don't want to be doing.

Matt Jacob:

What type of photography do you think is gone or going then, because of AI? I mean, I think movie posters is. I mean, that's going to be replaced by some point.

Doron Gild:

Yeah, I think certain aspects of it will definitely be replaced. The portrait side of it won't. You'll still be making those pictures. They'll just do it in a studio with backgrounds or whatever. Especially now that they can do all the digital backgrounds in studio. I think that still life is going. There's no reason to hire somebody to do these crazy moves anymore or splashes anymore. That's all so easy with AI now, because once there's information on the internet that has that picture there, that's it. It's possible to make. So that's why the portrait side of things won't get replaced. I think it's not forever, but not for a while.

Doron Gild:

Then my stuff is like I can't even start describing it and everything is done in camera. Obviously, I clean up skin and I do contrast and I add some color, but it's all right there, right there. So to then bring ai into the idea of it doesn't seem like it's even like a challenge for me or or or concern for my work. But it's as far as evolving and as far as you know what what I'm worried about? I think I'm answering too many questions at once, um, but the evolution that I had to have to take and still have to take is, first of all, um, how to communicate with people that, um, don't understand where I'm coming from, slash, they, um, have a certain way of thinking and they have a certain way of doing things and they have to answer to certain people, so they can't really take the risks that they used to be taking, like art directors and art buyers used to be like, oh I love this guy's work, let's, let's go see what's going on, but if they fuck up, that's it, they're fired. Now there's no, there's no space for it, so nobody takes any risks. I suppose that, um, they don't need to take risks. So if you do and you fuck up, you're done, because now you can find the person who would safely do this job or do it in a way where you can fix it later, so on and so forth.

Doron Gild:

But basically what I'm saying is that when I started, we were shooting on film, we weren't even shooting digital. You have to trust us, you have to trust that you hired the right person. You have to trust that we know what we're doing. You have to trust it. And now it's all there, it's all in front of you and there's no need to trust, there's no need to take a risk, because we can find somebody who can do it right already. We don't need to trust. There's no need to take a risk because it's we can find somebody who can do it right already. We don't need to like start anybody off.

Matt Jacob:

We don't need to take any risk why can they find someone to do it right? Just because it's more accessible and there's more photographers and it's easier to learn, more more open to learning for people, everyone's got a camera, etc. Etc.

Doron Gild:

Or it's basically the fact that there are already, like the people who have been doing more open to learning for people, everyone's got a camera, et cetera, et cetera. Or it's basically the fact that there are already the people who have been doing it for years and years and years and slowly but surely they'll get replaced, but the process is decades Like. Stephen Klein is still Stephen Klein. Nobody's taking his space. Yet. Andy Lee Woods is still doing the work, selig is still doing the work, lee Woods is still doing the work, selig is still doing the work, joey L is still doing the work, but he's choosing to to go in different directions. You know what I mean. Like everybody, there's like a consistent, like pouch of people that are doing the work, and there's no reason to not have Art Shriver do the job as opposed to letting me do it. Why?

Matt Jacob:

You mentioned Joey L, who's a big inspiration of mine. What is he up to these days? I haven't seen much of him. I know he loves his Twitter and his NFTs, but do you see much?

Doron Gild:

No, I think that we were in the same agency for a while and he was doing all the you know, the Always Sunny in Philadelphia and he was doing all these movie things. But I think then concentrating on his like on the Africa book, which was beautiful, and on the idea of projects and what it can do and where it can go with it. But it's, I mean, I think his work is wonderful. I remember looking at the work in the very beginning and being like what the fuck? Like he's making the work I wanted to make, but he's making it in Africa and it's fucking beautiful, what the fuck. I remember being stunned by it and he was younger than me.

Matt Jacob:

He started when he was doing commercial photography, when he was 17,. 18, wasn't he? I mean, just insane. Yeah, what a dick. I love him? No for sure.

Doron Gild:

We had the same agent for a while and I'm like, oh, I want to do all these movie posters and stuff like that. And he goes well, joey's here, I can't give you his work. I'm like, there it is, oh yeah, like here, I can't give you his work". I'm like, there it is, oh yeah, straight up. He's like we'll work and we'll get you stuff. It's great. But you can't do that one because we already have somebody for that. And this is a big agency. This wasn't a toy agency.

Matt Jacob:

You touched upon communication and I want to kind of dive into some at least some advice or some lessons that you've learned and how to communicate on both sides of the job. You know one on business agency clients but one on you know the subjects and the people that you're taking photographs of. Are there any kind of like lessons that you've really learned on how to not manipulate but how to like appease certain people and communicate effectively in order to a get a job or to be a good client and vice versa, when you're on set or when you're making these pictures over the course of a few weeks?

Doron Gild:

Yeah, I think that the client side of things and the people that I photograph, I, I, I just we just get along. It's it's like almost an automatic thing. I'm a little humorous, I'm, you know, I'm a little goofy. It's fun, it's fun to be around me. I'm like very exuberant when, especially when it comes to onset and my when I have ideas, and it's like really, really exciting. So, the client side of things and communicating with people, that one I got I love it and it's part of the reason why I make the work, because I love people and I love learning about people, love conversations.

Doron Gild:

The business side I've always been lost. I've always tried to just be myself and try to just speak my truth and sometimes it works and sometimes it's too much and sometimes it's completely off the rails. As far as well, we're business people. This is pharma. What are you talking about? So, like I think that the experiences are individual and I think that the experiences are specific to any job that I've ever had, except for the family portraits and for my personal stuff, like the any job that I've ever had, except for the family portraits and for my personal stuff, like the personal portraits that I used to do, which was easier to make. It was always like I just want to spend time with you, let's do this, let's figure it out, let's get to know each other, and then I can make the right pictures. And it's great because hopefully they want to spend time with me too. So it works, and it's great because hopefully they want to spend time with me too.

Matt Jacob:

So it works. So if we're talking to a third party here who wants to do what you do, give me some distilled version of that, Like a couple of tips Empathy or try and listen more. Spend time with your subjects.

Doron Gild:

Always listen, always empathy, always time. But I don't even know if any of that is going to make a difference between the fact that you just have to communicate and you have to want to be there. You have to want to be next to this person, you have to want to experience these people, otherwise it comes across as fake and it doesn't work. But beyond, like I can't like, how do you explain how you communicate with people Like? To me, it's, it's always just been me being enthusiastic about the moment and me understanding who I'm talking to, and it's not even a matter of like finding the thing to talk about. It's it just always just works. I just find people interesting.

Matt Jacob:

And you found that relatively easy from day one, or you feel like you've grown into that and now it's so natural to you.

Doron Gild:

I think I've grown into being an adult and a human, you know. No, I mean, I know that my work has matured, with me maturing, and it's slowed down, with me slowing down and my ego going away and all that, all the little bits and pieces, for sure, as a, as an adult, but I've always wanted to be doing the same thing. I suppose that it's just comes down to editing my thoughts and my work and my words and all it's. I really I guess it's just growing up, when it's all said and done, the work itself. I feel like I can look at back at photographs that I've made and now don't like. I even like it takes me time to.

Doron Gild:

I go into phases of liking my work, not liking my work, liking specific pictures, but I can still look back and be like, oh, I wasn't even there, I wasn't paying attention. This is not the right thing. That's why the picture didn't work. And if it's like there's some commercial work or editorial work that I go in and I don't like the people that I'm photographing, you could fucking see it in the work for sure. You could fucking see it in the work for sure, which was the detriment to me as a, as a creative and as a commercial photographer, because I wasn't fully, you know, there as an artist, which was a problem but how do you get around that?

Matt Jacob:

if you even said, even this day, right if you, if you got a job tomorrow and you with a client that you don't really connect with, but they're obviously paying you your fees, how do you navigate around that? Well, you just don't really connect with, but they're obviously paying you your fees.

Doron Gild:

How do you navigate around that? Or you just don't take the job. Well, I can't afford to not take jobs nowadays, but I think that, when it comes down to it, it's the idea. And if I have a certain idea, I go into a place where, first of all, let's make sure that they like the idea and it's fine and we can function with it. But then I just make the work.

Doron Gild:

And I make the work because it's my work, not because it's a portrait anymore. So I'm making a rectangle that looks pretty and the light's great and the action works and flows nicely and it works for them, but it won't go in my portfolio and it won't go anywhere where I can present it, so to speak, because it doesn't feel real or rich to me in that way. And I can have pictures that didn't work physically but I, emotionally, am really attached to them, which I'll put it all over the place. You know what I mean. But I think that it really comes down to fucking deal with it now, and I didn't used to be able to do it, and that's maturity and that's ego, and that's all the stuff that you would expect an adult to deal with in a much more rational way.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, you say being an adult, you know, inferring that actually you know, as an adult, you know yourself better. So you know your weaknesses, you know your strengths, you have a bit more awareness of the ego, the good and bad ego, what everything goes into. You know what's what you're identified with in terms of your thoughts all the time and being able to compartmentalize those right and and I think that just comes with with maturity, and some people reach it a little bit sooner than others. But I, I was listening to um, I kind of remember his name, but um, an artist, not a photographer and I I someone sent me this link an old japanese artist and I'm not doing him any service by not remembering his name, but he was adamant that all artists should work in a job in their twenties. Just go and be employed, learn what it's like to just work in a fucking job.

Matt Jacob:

Right Nowadays, you reach 18, 19 and you start social media and you go and you can do free jobs and this brand deal and this brand. You don't even have to be that good and before you know it, a couple of years later you're kind of earning your own money, which is great, obviously it's. Those opportunities are fantastic, but you don't know yourself, you can't create anything of meaning and you can't make the mistakes that you can't create anything of meaning and you, you, you can't make the mistakes that you can. And if you're being bossed around and you know making making mistakes off on someone else's dime, right, and then really giving yourself that time to mature and learn that In my in my world that that came from.

Doron Gild:

Well, I obviously had a excuse me a normal job at a camera store or a pizza shop or whatever the fuck it was, but I think that assisting was really vital for me, even though I was shooting and I was working while I was assisting at all the points the idea of how to deal with somebody else being in charge and just catering to somebody else and making sure that everything works. Because, being the first assistant in New York City, you're fucking in charge, but you're not in charge, so the ego goes away. You have to, otherwise you get fired, plain and simple. Like this isn't your set, fuck off, you know.

Doron Gild:

But when it comes down to it, you're still learning how to manage a set. You're still learning how to manage people, and then you learn how to be like okay, this is where my job ends and where the art of his or hers starts, you know. So that's the humility and the and the understanding of what's okay for me came with about 15 years of working with fantastic photographers, artists and photographers, and I think that like, and then, once you start not doing that at all or not assisting anybody, you're in a world where you're like. I have to make my own work now, and I have to be that boss again, and I have to teach the kids that are coming up on the other side in the same way so they can move on, do the same thing. So my assistants are all wonderful and they all learn, and we have a fantastic time on set because it feels like we're all together and we're all learning.

Matt Jacob:

I'm the boss, though, now now, do you think we should all um try and be better artists as photographers? Do you think we should all, do you think we should all, try and pursue the artistry in photography? And if so, do you think you know, the world would be a more beautiful place if we, if we did?

Doron Gild:

being a creative now with being an artist. Anything you do right now creatively is being an artist. I think that if the art as expression and as far as what art means is there, people will take it more seriously and more people will pay attention. I don't think you have a choice Like you chose as a photographer, or at least as a creative photographer, not necessarily a can't even. There is no other thing 's. It's an art form. You choose to do it commercially, you choose to do it artistically. If you don't put yourself into it, it's not going to work. And that's where art comes in, no matter how what you're doing, but still it's still going to do it. So, like you, traveling and making photographs, you, you find a way to make a difference in people other people do. That's where the art, your art form, comes in. Within the, the parameters of where you are in the story, you're telling, like you do things that are not normal and on a, I'm going to go travel and meet these people and take pictures of these people. You, you wait for the right moment. You find the right people, you find the right. It feels like you're looking for the right tribe, almost in a weird way, and then you find a way to make the light sing, make the light move, your pictures move, which is really fascinating and really beautiful. To make pictures like in a space that's not in your control and still you have full control, which is quite impressive actually Thank you.

Matt Jacob:

That was very kind. What do we say then to those photographers? I get a lot of people coming back. I like to talk about philosophy and meaning and layers and the intention behind photography, rather than just the technical side of things, which is obviously we all want to pay attention to that. But a lot of people say I just want to fucking take photos. I don't care about the meaning, I don't care about the storytelling, I just want to take photos.

Doron Gild:

Well, I think that it comes down to there is no big fucking pile of photographs that you could just take them from. You have to make them, you have to create them. There has to be a process, there has to be an intention, there has to be a will to go and pursue, there has to be something that you are passionate about in order to make work, and that's what it is making work like. If you're, if your body of work is only, you know, coca-cola cans that are pouring into like that, it'll kill you, that'll drive you nuts. You won't be satisfied. Granted, you might be rich, but you won't be satisfied. And there's no way. That's the only thing you're doing. And if you want to show the other stuff that you're doing, it's fine. Like it's there's.

Doron Gild:

As a creative, as an, as an artist, it's really vital to like make things that make you want to fucking make them. I can't even think about any other way to tell a person that if you're going to be an artist, make art. You know, you can't just sit there and be like oh, this looks cute and I'm going to figure out how to, how to take this picture. That doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything. I mean, at a certain point, when you're young and you're trying to figure it out and trying to learn how to make this light do that and that light do that. Yeah, you're learning. But again, assisting is fantastic and you can learn from masters, masters.

Matt Jacob:

Who are your biggest inspirations, or who have been your biggest inspirations and who are today?

Doron Gild:

Well, I think that the work clearly speaks of Gregory Crookson and Leibowitz and Seliger. I spent two wonderful summers working with Seliger between my first year in college and second, and then third and fourth, and every time I walked into that studio I was in awe and I learned so much just by like standing there, forget running around, forget four o'clock in the morning, doesn't fucking matter, it was incredible. And then I think that, like I've always tried to figure out a way to I don't want to say make the same work as as Crutzen does, but the reality is, if I could have that kind of money to make those kind of pictures, it would be amazing. $250,000 on an image, why not close down a town? Let's do this.

Doron Gild:

Oh my god, in the very beginning when he made Twilight, that's what it was, that's what it cost every fucking photo. But it was like that around the board, across the board, sorry, like when glenn was making his work for like vogue or for for anybody. The productions were massive and there was no expense spared at all. There was so much money being flown anywhere that they could make any picture they wanted, which is fantastic. Can you imagine? Go do what you want. Sure, it's unbelievable.

Matt Jacob:

Yep, now it's just do it in a studio and fill in the rest with software.

Doron Gild:

Or figure out how to fucking make somebody pay for it, and that's literally what I've been trying to do. Somebody's got to pay for me to get my assistance, to grab my gear, to help me make these pictures, and I have fun doing it and people get lots out of it, so it's not like they're not getting what they're paying for, but I'm certainly making sure that I can make work with them making. It's the way it is. What are you going to do? Like that's the hustle?

Matt Jacob:

yeah, that's the hustle, um people, people, if they don't realize that before they start, they soon realize it when they get in and it's it's never ending.

Doron Gild:

It's important to try and enjoy that hustle, right, try and enjoy that process and just live in it, or at least have those moments within the hustle that make it worthwhile which, to me, is being on set, which, to me, is finishing the work, which, to me, is seeing the print, which, to me, is seeing it on the wall. There's these little moments that they're like there's so much fun and they're so uplifting. It's like, oh, this is the feeling, that's it, that's it, that's what keeps you going. Oh, my God, I'm getting shivers now Just thinking about the notion of like I just put a book together. Seeing all the work printed is so much fun and it's so, so like, oh, this is, this is what I'm doing. It weighs like 40 pounds, you know it's. It feels happy and I'm a happy person.

Matt Jacob:

I can tell, do you think we've lost our way in the traditional forms of photography and we're kind of going back to books and prints and film and those more tangible, emotion filled feelings with photography?

Doron Gild:

with photography. I absolutely think that we've lost it and I think that we're going back to it. I'm talking to my agents now. In the last three weeks a month I decided to do a new book and I'm like not like a published book, like a portfolio book, and I'm like I want to get this in front of people. I want to have meetings. And they're like nobody has meetings anymore.

Doron Gild:

I'm like, no, no, no, no. People would love to have meetings. Let's just make sure they understand that the meeting is going to be me in front of them with a big ass fucking book and we're going to chit chat for an hour and a half. Maybe we'll you know, like what we're talking about. Maybe you'll be like, oh, see you later, never see you again. But to have somebody in front of you and to show them work that you've been slaving over and you can feel it in the book and you can see the passion, you can see the effort, they'll enjoy it, even if it's just an hour off their day.

Doron Gild:

Think about it. A lot of these people are going oh, let's have a meeting and look at fucking pictures for an hour and a half. It's like, why not? So I'm like no, we can't accept this. If we can't get meetings anymore, let's do it Before the pandemic. If my agent wanted to get meetings, I would schedule a week let's go to meetings and we would do like three meetings a day. Wherever the fuck I was. Why isn't that possible anymore? One meeting a day fine, somebody wants to spend time either with me or with my work?

Matt Jacob:

Let's find them? Is that because our attention spans generally, both personally but on a commercial sense? I would just need a quick five minutes here and a quick five minutes there, and it's almost like the physical version or the literal version of scrolling.

Doron Gild:

No, they think they know you already from seeing your website and your Instagram. It's absolutely social media. It's absolutely the right now, right now. Right now, right now. Let's find it. Let's go. I see an egg in a hand. That's what I want. Let's do it. And it loses the personal side of things, it loses the art side of things and, realistically, like this is the fun part of our work. It's like let's meet people and let's make work together. Let's make work together.

Matt Jacob:

True forms of collaboration.

Doron Gild:

Yeah, the collaboration is wonderful and it's like what commercial work used to be. Let's bring this guy to bring his ideas. The only big commercial work I've ever had was we're doing this. It's for diabetes, let's say, and this is the story, what do you think I'm like? Okay, this is what I need. This is where we're going to shoot it. These are the people that are going to be in it, because they want my input, they want my work to represent them. That's the whole point. Why hire me? If you want somebody else's work, why hire me? If you want somebody else's work, why hire me?

Doron Gild:

If you want to make the same pictures that are in your head, you want me to come up with something, let's do it. Let's have fun doing it. So if you're sitting in front of a creative director and they have like six jobs that they're thinking about and you have something that's going to relate to one of them, that's it. That's where the work, work starts. But if you don't fucking sit in front of them, they'll never remember anything. All these people get sent hundreds, hundreds of emails a day with thousands of photographs and they don't know any photographers because, like they don't even pay attention anymore. But if you're an agent or an agency send the work, sit in front of somebody. Let's do this, and I think it's going to work Now.

Matt Jacob:

it's a digitized ecosystem, right, and it's social media driven. And do you pay much attention to social media and how do you see that kind of impacting?

Doron Gild:

It feels like I'm living it. It's horrible. I'm trying to crack the algorithm, trying to crack this understanding. I've been on Instagram since it started. Basically, I've had what? 9,000 followers. I don't even know how people you have 200,000 followers on Instagram. I have no idea how to crack that code. All I know is I'm going to make pictures. Hopefully people like them.

Matt Jacob:

Look, you know a lot of it's smoke and mirrors. You know, I'd say 50,000 of those are boosted posts from years ago, so essentially paid. I've never kind of bought followers, but yeah, it's a marketing. You know you've got to either, and I talk to people who ask me this all the time. It's a, it's a marketing. You know you've got to. You've got to either, and I talk to people who ask me this all the time. It's like really to grow, you've got to post five times a week. You've just got to you. Just, they just want, they want posts. Right, the algorithm is, yeah, it's very nuanced in this and this and this and this and this, but essentially you've just got to fucking post and you've got to do it consistently until the algorithm learns. Okay, you're real. Okay, you're really like consistently giving us content, which means it's going to just grab people for for longer, and then on top of that, you've got to give them money. I actually I as a photographer, anyway, as a photographer, you can't.

Doron Gild:

Yeah, you got to yeah, I certainly do the boostings and all the little stuff. I don't make enough photographs in order to post every five days, unless we're talking about stories and little bits and pieces. I don't like to put my you know my little snappies on. I have 80,000 pictures on my phone but I'm not like that's not the work that I put on there. You know what I mean.

Matt Jacob:

It's difficult when I know, yeah, me too, Like I barely make that right and so you have, like I. Unfortunately, the podcast saved me and that's what really grew my account. It's because I have so much content and I can post reels every day, clips as a photographer who didn't have the podcast. There's no way. You just can't do it unless you've got images every fucking day or you're willing to do reels outside of the images.

Doron Gild:

And I don't like to repeat myself, like to me it's like it's. It's almost cheating if I have a picture on there twice like I don't want to do that. I just want to put real like all the the work that I want to show, the work that I want to relate to, the work that I want people to relate to. I think I don't mean to sound doom and gloom and, uh, I could see, I could feel it like this whole conversation. I'm like, wow, he's going to fucking edit this shit. I was like how is it going to work this? I'm like a mess. All my ADHD is everywhere. I love it, I love, I love this job. I really do. I love making work. I love being around artists. I love being taken care of as a creative.

Doron Gild:

I moved to a town. I left the city and I moved to a town upstate in the Hudson Valley, and the embrace that I got from the art community here has been unbelievable and inspirational and I can get emotional about it and that's why I love this. It's because it feels like I'm a part of something that I've always wanted to be a part of and slash realize now that I've always been a part of it Like in New York. I was fucking chasing this one thing, let's go, let's go. And then I moved and I'm like oh fuck, I was already, I already had it. It was, it was over there and I just brought it, brought it all with me. It was. Now I'm here and I'm doing my thing and I'm making my work, and I'm making better work than I've ever made and I love it good for you, like I, I know you're not coming across doom and gloom and what's important.

Matt Jacob:

Actually, I think and I'll try and usually it's me and me the kind of the realism in in any conversation but it's important that people understand that, a everyone's got their own journey through this and, b, if you want to go and fucking earn a living, a full-time living, as an artist, creative photographer, whatever you choose, it's hard work and it doesn't stop You've got to really want to do it and you've got to find a way to enjoy that process. And being part of something like you've just talked about is so important. Feeling is a sense of belonging and you don't have to be like I feel like everyone wants to be liked by everyone these days, which, as we know, is just impossible. Find what you love to do and just go and do it with everything that you've got and knowing that it's going to be challenging and with a little bit of luck you might fucking make something out of it. Right, but it's going to be difficult, that's okay.

Doron Gild:

I mean, think about the percentage of people who actually, well, now it's different. I don't even know what's going on now with people making money off photography, but it used to be like nobody fucking makes it and maybe somebody slips to the cracks and does it, you know. But now, like it's, it's possible to even like make rent fuck it, but rent and supermarket, do it. Just work your ass off and make rent and supermarket, that's it. Wait until you have kids and then fuck.

Doron Gild:

But the reality is is that it's not easy to be an artist. I have, I have a 21 year old son and he is brilliant in everything he does. He's brilliant, he's a great painter, he's a, he makes music, he does all these things. And I say to him you can go and do that and it's going to be great. But you've seen how my life has gone and you've seen how hard it's been to get to wherever I'm going or wherever I've gotten. So you need to have a business degree and an art degree, just so you understand that this is not easy.

Doron Gild:

And as an artist only, you're going to fall into so many traps and eat so much cereal. You're going to fucking go crazy. Just learn the basics of life and then create from there. But you know, 18 year olds aren't even going to school anymore. They're like oh, I'm a photographer, I'm a videographer, I'm a content creator, I'm a YouTuber. For fuck's sake, it's hard. There aren't more than one, mr Beast. For fuck's sake, it's hard. There aren't more than one mr beast that's been here listening yeah, it's just apart from this podcast.

Matt Jacob:

Let's go yes yes, well, look, I. I hope you can replay this conversation to uh potential clients. That'd be good with your book. You can just get them to watch the podcast. This is who I am.

Doron Gild:

This is really difficult motherfuckers give me, give, me give me um, like I I gone no, I like I keep thinking about all the things that I've said and the speed in which I'm saying them and whether or not they made sense and how the fuck it's going to come across. I don't know, like who cares, like this is like the reality of of who we are at any given time and it's hard and I can't lie and say that, look at, this has been like a piece of cake I feel it.

Matt Jacob:

I feel it, I appreciate your authenticity and and I know everyone listening will because they'll take solace in the fact okay, yeah, I'm. I'm finding it really difficult as well. I that there's not glad, but I feel more at peace that there's other people that are struggling as much as I am, and everyone has their levels of struggle.

Doron Gild:

Yeah, and I think self-doubt is valid, and I think that being afraid is valid, but I think that persevering and fucking making work and enjoying the work itself Again, those moments of me finishing shooting and hanging the things on the wall or print this, this, might this, these joys that are unmatched, unmatched like it makes it all so happy and it's, it's vital. And as a creative, as an artist, that's literally why we keep going and keep going. It's that, like people jump off out of planes in order to get this kind of feeling, I don't do that, but I'll go and spend a day running around with nine lights everywhere and that's exciting to me. That's the adrenaline, that's the love, that's the passion. It's really fun.

Matt Jacob:

Good for you. Well, I look forward um staying close and following that work as you, as you create more and um, yeah, I just want to thank you again for for taking part and being honest and really, uh, telling us how it is and, uh, I wish you the best of luck moving forward. Hopefully I'll I'll catch you and that would be a wonderful man. Come on up here, take a vacation from bali, maybe, uh, maybe I'll wait till the spring.

Doron Gild:

For sure. I really appreciate you having me on here. I hope you could figure out a way to edit my madness, and thank you, man.

Matt Jacob:

I really appreciate it. We don't edit madness, but we love it. We love you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Matt.

Doron Gild:

Have matt, have a wonderful time, have a wonderful day.

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Matt Jacob

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