The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
From Avedon’s Shadow to Four Decades of Immortal Frames - Richard Corman, EO84
Richard Corman has spent over four decades photographing some of the most iconic figures in history, from Madonna and Nelson Mandela to Philip Seymour Hoffman and Muhammad Ali. Trained under the legendary Richard Avedon, his portraits are known for their raw emotion, authenticity, and storytelling depth. In this episode, we learn about Richard's extraordinary journey, exploring how he connects with his subjects and captures moments that stand the test of time.
What we discussed:
- The importance of curiosity and human connection in portrait photography.
- Richard’s early career and how photography ‘found’ him.
- Lessons from apprenticing with Richard Avedon.
- The evolution of photography from analog to digital and its impact on creativity
- Behind-the-scenes stories of photographing Madonna, Basquiat, Muhammad Ali, and more.
- The difference between ‘good’ and ‘great’ photography.
- The experience of capturing Nelson Mandela in his prison cell.
- Transitioning from commerical photography to the fine art world.
- Why mentorship and apprenticeship are crucial in today’s photography industry.
- Advice for aspiring photographers on developing a unique style and career longevity.
- His ongoing documentary project on transgender individuals in the military.
Find Richard Cormon's work on his channels:
Website: www.richardcorman.com
Instagram: @richardcorman
_____________________________________________________
Message me, leave a comment and join in the conversation!
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
YouTube:
www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay
Learn with me
https://mattjacobphotography.com/learn
My Newsletter
https://mattjacobphotography.com/newsletter
Website:
www.mattjacobphotography.com
Socials:
IG | X | TikTok | Threads | YouTube | @mattyj_ay
yoreh.
www.yoreh.co
Welcome to the Mood Podcast. I'm covering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time. I'm your host, matt Jacob, and thank you so much for joining me in today's conversation. And today I have the privilege of speaking with Richard Corman, a legendary portrait photographer whose career spans over four decades. Richard has captured some of the most iconic figures of our time Madonna, nelson Mandela, philip Seymour Hoffman, muhammad Ali and countless others. Each image carries his signature blend of intimacy, authenticity and cinematic depth. Trained under Richard Avedon, his work combines technical mastery with a really deep understanding of human nature, making him one of the most revered portrait photographers in the industry.
Matt Jacob:In my conversation with him, we did explore the art of capturing raw emotion, what it takes to truly connect with the subject, and how photography has evolved over the years. We discussed some of his legendary images and how he approaches the responsibility of portraying cultural icons. This episode is filled with wisdom, his personal stories and a deep reflection on what it means to create meaningful work that really stands the test of time. So now I bring you Richard Corman. Corman, richard.
Richard Corman:Corman, welcome to the Moo Podcast. So happy to be here.
Matt Jacob:So great to have you here.
Richard Corman:Yeah, it's been a while since we've tried to organize this, but it's happening. We're here, you're there, I'm here, uh, and it feels like we're sitting right next to each other yeah, the beauty of technology these days.
Matt Jacob:Um, you're in new york, I'm over here in bali and our mutual connection, peter early, put us in touch, um, which I'm incredibly grateful for. Uh, we've got a lot to talk about today. So hopefully, um, hopefully, we can really dive deep into your huge pedigree in in photography and, for me, in a self-interest standpoint, I'm I'm excited to really learn more about you, but really learn more about how you create such incredible images and how you have done and how things have changed. So, um, in order to start, I really just wanted to kind of try and give you a chance to put put a label on the last four decades of being in photography and give me an idea of what you feel your impact on the world has been with regards to your, your work wow, that's a big one.
Richard Corman:I would never say that I've changed the world or shaped the world. What I will say, it's been 40 years of curiosity. It's been 40 years of fierce determination to get to know people and to communicate with people. Determination to get to know people and to communicate with people, I think that is. If I have one gift, it's that ability to connect with people. I am passionately curious about all kinds of folks people you know, people you don't know. Started in the early 80s, was prepared to go on to school. Graduate school in psychology took a year off. Photography found me and was at that point. I just made that decision that it's here to stay. I landed a job apprenticing my hero, richard Avedon, where I spent a few years, which was ultimately life-changing. I would not be here today if it wasn't for that experience. And 40-some odd years later, I continue to be as passionate and as surprised by what happens in front of my camera on a constant basis.
Matt Jacob:Well, that's great to hear, Great to hear that that curiosity remains ever present. Tell us how you mentioned how the photography found you. Tell us that journey, and the journey in the beginnings, of how photography actually found you.
Richard Corman:I was given a camera. I was a shy kid who really sports was my thing. I lived through basketball. It was my formal education in socializing myself and being invited into different parts of New York City with different types of people that otherwise I would not have been able to connect with. I started taking pictures. The photographs I took were solitary. The last thing I wanted to do was place a human being in front of my camera, because I was terrified about that responsibility and I was photographing cityscapes. I'd get up at five in the morning and I'd go downtown and I would just follow the light as it rose and just experimented.
Richard Corman:I was fiercely determined to see something new every morning and it was addicting and I couldn't stop. And although my day job was, I was doing research for somebody in the psych department at the university I was at and I continued to photograph and all of a sudden I realized you know, it might be a good idea to focus my camera on others. And the way I did that, the way I transitioned into people, was I was photographing my friends. I transitioned into people was I was photographing my friends. I would bring my camera everywhere If there was a gathering, a dinner, a party, a walk in the park, a sporting event, I would just bring my camera and began to feel a little bit more comfortable with other people, with other people, um, and that's really um. It was that simple a transition, but I just loved the process. You know, like every young, uh, photographer, you know printing and processing in my kitchen or my bathroom, you know, and, uh, the magic of seeing an image show up on a sheet of one-dimensional paper was mind-boggling and exciting and ultimately, as I say, addictive. It was my beautiful addiction, if you will. I couldn't stop, I could not stop. I didn't stop, I could not stop. I didn't take classes, one here and there, but ultimately I was learning by apprenticing other photographers and assisting other photographers, some of them miserable people and miserable photographers, but nonetheless, I gained a lot of knowledge as to what I would want to do and what I wouldn't want to do.
Richard Corman:And it wasn't until I was in the right place at the right time that I was told that Richard Avedon was looking for an assistant. I had just seen his exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum and I thought, well, if I could ever, if that was ever possible, that would be the ultimate to apprentice somebody like that, who I had such respect for, and I did. I went over and met their studio manager, who connected me with Dick, and he interviewed me while he was literally shaving in his bathroom and ready to go out to the theater that night, and I was hired on the spot and the next morning, you know, I was there and it's when everything turned and I began to see things in a different light, literally and metaphorically. And how he did it was unique and his thought process was genius.
Richard Corman:Whether you like his work or not, and ultimately, today, I think of him often. My goal is always to try to see something behind somebody's eyes and to pull it out so that they can tell their own story, even though, as we both know, when taking a picture of someone, you are also really taking a portrait of yourself, because these are decisions we all make. If you were taking the same picture I was side by side, it would look different and vice versa, and I find that incredibly inspiring and I find that incredibly uh uh inspiring and uh uh, and I also enjoy sharing it with people. There's no, there's no, there's no secrets.
Matt Jacob:I enjoy, you know, passing it, passing it on.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, I wish there were more people like you in that respect.
Matt Jacob:But, um, just just going back to your kind of the almost, as I think, I think you've had probably and we'll talk about this many seminal moments in your career and pivotal points where you've become either recognized or you've gone to the next kind of season in your next chapter in your photography career, but obviously it seems the real Genesis ofesis of your profession and creativity and art came from that apprenticeship.
Matt Jacob:Is that something that you feel we need more of these days, especially in the photography industry? I mean, I've always personally, always just almost been desperate for a mentor or someone that I can just sit alongside and watch and soak up and be that sponge, especially in my early years. Now everyone seems to be self-taught, everyone seems to kind of think they know what they're doing and really we're just scratching the surface. Was that something that you feel was so important to you that has almost been lost today and that we it would be? It would be good for the industry and for us as artists if there were more apprenticeships like that look, I don't think we can go back.
Richard Corman:You know it's a, you know that was an analog time. Uh, it also meant that communicating people was different. It wasn't what we're doing now. It was standing in front of somebody and being next to somebody and touching somebody and having that experience. Dick was very generous at times, so that was certainly enlightening. Can it change today? Sure, but it's just, it's different. I don't know how to explain it. It wasn't better, it was different.
Richard Corman:People say well, do you shoot film or do you shoot analog? I shoot both, but I'm basically a digital shooter because of the I don't want to say simplicity, but because of the immediacy of it. Back in the day we would take a picture and it would take maybe a couple of weeks to process film, put contact sheets together, edit the film. By the time you brought it down to your subjects it was a week or so later. But it was a beautiful thing. It was a beautiful process. I'd travel all over the world and I'd shoot hundreds of rolls of film, not knowing if the pictures were sharp, not knowing what I mean. The surprise of processing and seeing it could be weeks later, could be on a journey that took weeks, was exciting and unnerving at the same time.
Richard Corman:We now, you know, are capturing to a monitor in many cases and we know, or we think we might know, if there are, if we've got that image, that one or two or maybe more, that means something to me and hopefully will mean something to that person. So mentorship, I think, is important. Students or people come in and ask all kinds of questions, some that they feel embarrassed to ask, but there's no silly question, you know. I'm happy to share, I'm happy if somebody wants to know what lens or what F-stop I mean, I could care less about those things, but if it makes them, you know, gives them a certain calm or some knowledge that they can walk away with, great. You know the one thing I say it is always about communication, always, and that does seem to be lacking. I have young interns and assistants that I work with that are brilliant, technically brilliant. I can't compete with it. I can barely turn my camera on, and these are people that can run circles around me but they cannot look, look you in the eye and have a conversation.
Matt Jacob:That's painful, you know, uh, and I believe that's really what I'm trying to get to, richard, is is, yeah, in, in the most subtle and polite way, it's kind of what I'm getting to is we're losing that human connection and those social skills. Um, but, and no one's fault, it's just the way that society has developed, especially in the digitized social media ai world that we're in now it's it's only going to get worse and people are going to be even more ostracized than than they were. And, and I think photography, and certainly the way you and I photograph although different styles and everything, but we we photograph people. You have to have those skills to some respect.
Richard Corman:Yes, absolutely. Look, you need to know your craft and no doubt you need to know what you're doing. There's equipment, there's lighting, there's all of that that one needs to know, but ultimately, the pictures that move me are the ones that move me. They can be technically way off, but yet there's something that just some of the best pictures I've ever taken were mistakes. Uh, we've all, we've all done it. You know whether it's a double exposure, whether there's too much movement, the jolt of the camera, and it's like, wow, that has a little humanity to it. There's something about that. Uh, that works and it's uh, uh, it's lovely to see.
Matt Jacob:What were the the biggest lessons that you can remember that maybe you still still take with you today? What were the biggest lessons that you learned from from that apprenticeship with with Richard Avedon?
Richard Corman:Well, I think the lesson I learned, uh, prior to that, was from my father, you know, which was uh, humility, uh, and understanding that we are not curing cancer. Here we are taking photographs now. You and I both know it's what we live for. You know, we love that process, we love that ability to communicate with people and we love the ability to tell stories. We're both storytellers and that remains on par with anything else. But, you know, dick Avedon was somebody who was prepared, who lived, he was always at the theater, he was always reading a book, he was always, you know, at the latest opening for a movie. He was an art connoisseur, but everything was about his work and I think there were also things that were missing in his life, you know, I mean, he had a family, but I can't say that that was particularly successful. Uh, he was uh egocentric, he was uh, and everything revolved around his work, for better and for worse. And these are decisions we all make.
Richard Corman:For me, the most important thing to me were my friends and family. I mean, that was always the priority. And I think, matt, quite frankly, in terms of my career, yes, I've been very fortunate. I've been able to photograph pretty much everybody I've ever wanted to photograph but I've fallen under the radar, quite frankly, because I'm not somebody who really wants to get up on a pedestal and say, look at me. I always thought the work would speak for itself, but I'm here to tell you that it cannot. You need those around you that can help push it forward, because I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I'm the greatest photographer in the world. If somebody else wants to say it, fine, but you would never hear that coming out of my mouth. So I think there were moments when I could have taken advantage of fame and fortune and I didn't, because it wasn't the most important to me at that time. The most important to me at that time it was more important to support a friend or to play in a basketball game or to just read a book.
Richard Corman:I didn't go to the parties. I didn't, even though I'd been to all the places you've heard of too many times, but it wasn't Um, uh, but it wasn't uh. It was a lifestyle, but it wasn't really. You know I didn't go all in and uh, I think that is part of the game. You know everybody wants to be doing what we're doing. You know there's so many young artists out there, photographers in general, and New York City, the competition is brutal. It's just brutal. It is my creative carnival, if you will.
Richard Corman:New York City, I walk out on the street. My mind is blown. Every day I sit on a subway or a train. I cannot believe what I'm looking at. I cannot believe the diversity. I cannot believe the language is spoken, what people are wearing, the swag they have, um, but at the same time, uh, uh, it's.
Richard Corman:It's a rough place to to do what I'm doing. I wouldn't wish it on anybody that I truly loved. You know, um, it's, it's. It's not easy being a freelance artist. I mean at that, 70 years old. I, I am a freelance artist. I am no different than you or anybody else, other than the fact that I have more experience and maybe a few more pictures in a portfolio. But I am out there selling myself in my own way and exhibiting work in hopes that people will buy into it, and sharing work and telling stories, hoping that people will buy into it. And sharing work and telling stories, hoping that people will buy into it. And talking to creatives in hopes that they'll allow me to take a series of pictures that interest me and invest in it and fund it. It never ends, the journey never ends and you never want it to end, you continue to climb the mountain.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, I think it's important that people hear that and it's very fascinating that you, you know, if you go back to the eighties, when you first, I guess, started, you know making a name for yourself with, you know the, obviously the, the Madonna photos, jean-michel Basquiat, that the, that culture back then in New York, the huge art scene exploding, and yet still it sounds like you were a little bit withdrawn from that lifestyle or didn't necessarily want to be that person who was the new artist on the scene, going to all these kind of funky parties and and, uh, being involved with, with that culture. But maybe, maybe I'm speaking out of turn there, but it's something I think that's important for photographers and artists today. Just to know that, especially today, actually where competition is, is is so rife on the street, let alone alone on the on on the digital side of things, where social media, the competition out there is, just it's just insane. You have to, you cannot allow the work just to speak for yourself. I mean, you can, but you can't then just expect and I've fallen into this trap with not just photography but business as well you know, create something you think is amazing and then just sit back and wait for them to come. It just doesn't. It just doesn't work. You have to be able to be comfortable in selling yourself in, hopefully in the most ethical and professional way, correct?
Matt Jacob:But, uh, you know being good at business in that respect, being good at sales, marketing, business, as well, as you know trying to remember that you want, you want to be a photographer and you've got to keep crafting at that as well. You know it's it's, it's not easy, and if you can find some way to enjoy that process and and to be good at it, then, uh, you know you're, you're on the, you're on the right track. But you talked about what interests you today in terms of photography and exhibitions and working with other creatives. Tell me, what does interest you today that, as we're sat here talking what, what are the photographs and the stories and the, the images that you want to create today? What, what, what, what is it that interests you?
Richard Corman:Let me just um, step back for a second, uh, because you Just step back for a second, because you brought up the 80s, which was wild, and the folks that I was photographing, these were humans that I'd never been around before. Madonna. There was nobody to like her. Whether you again, whether you like her or not, she was fearless, absolutely fearless, and nothing was going to stop her from getting to the next level, the first. You know the first question I asked her just as I was meeting her what are your goals? You know, where do you want to go? She says I want to change the world. You know, and it was not tongue in cheek, she was absolutely serious. Uh, and the way she looked and the way she dressed, and the that self-confidence, or what seemed to be self-confidence, and that beauty was, um, uh, authentic, real and remarkable.
Richard Corman:No doubt when I walked into Jean-Michel Basquiat's studio in 1984, which was Warhol's studio, and he knew I was coming and I walked in and there were 30 kids there I mean, we were all kids and there was drugs and smoke and his mural on the wall and on the floor and people were walking all over them and there was a rawness to it and this young man was just kind of huddled in the corner, just in his own world, and it was Jean-Michel. And I went over and introduced myself and I just kind of removed him from that insanity and I had a little piece of four by four gray paper I tacked to the wall. I said, can we move over here? This was for a shoot for Italian Vogue. They gave me a jacket that he needed to wear. He said just make sure he puts this, you know. He said, just make sure he puts that jacket on. And he did and he just kind of owned it. And here was a complicated genius who some of his art I knew about, but I didn't really understand his mental process and, as we know today, his work is as relevant today as it ever was. Remarkable I mean absolutely remarkable. And he gave me his, he was present for me, he gave me everything I could have asked for in the most, in just such a quiet, simple way.
Richard Corman:I often say, matt, that sometimes when we start out, knowing less is knowing more, because today we have too much information. If I was to go out and photograph today's Jean-Michel, I might have 15 people around me. You know, back then it was just me and him. I had an assistant holding a light. It was. It was no big deal. Today it would have been a big deal because, as I said, where would I photograph him? How would I light him? Would it be ambient light? Would it be strobe? Would it be a mix? Is it at the end of the day, is it as the sun comes up? Is it in open shade?
Richard Corman:There are so many decisions we have to make as photographers and as artists, because you have a blank canvas and how are you going to fill it? Is it going to be the gray wall that you're sitting against, or is it going to be a location that I'm sitting against? It starts with all of that, and then we tend to or I tend to I can easily overthink anything. So when I look back and I recommend to all young artists look at the work you did when you first started you know that you haven't looked at. It could be in three years, it could be 10 years ago. You will be shocked at some of the things that you missed and you pushed aside. Well, I didn't know what I was doing. The light was off. Well, maybe it's not that important, maybe that's what makes it so striking. So those are the things I've learned over the years and taking pictures of these folks and spending time with them.
Richard Corman:You know, yes, I was not a party guy, but I did go to the Studio 54s, you know all of these places and they were always all together Basquiat and Keith Haring, and Madonna and Francesco Clemente. And yes, because there was again it was that analog sense of community and communication. They were sharing ideas, they were inspired by each other. I mean, that's what it seemed to me. I mean Madonna was dating Basquiat and Keith Haring. I mean the three of them were inseparable. And that was again inspiring to see those folks together. And that's why, today, I think it's so important for all of us to share the wealth and continue to communicate and to share some of the knowledge or the experience that we've all had.
Matt Jacob:Now were these shoots with Madonna and Jean-Michel, and we'll talk about some of the other iconic images that you've made. Were those early photographs and projects while you were working with Richard Avedon, or were they?
Richard Corman:pre or post Good question. So when I was working with Dick, I always tried on weekends to do something for me because it was very easy. You know, I loved him and I loved what he did. But you begin to see everything through his eyes and you get a little jaded, because every picture you take is a white background, a certain sensibility, and you're not him and you cannot be him. And you can certainly try to emulate, but I think it does in the long run more harm than good.
Richard Corman:So, madonna, I was working with Dick and it was, ironically, my mom was a casting director at the time and she was casting a movie for Martin Scorsese and she brought this girl in and she was blown away by her. And I always said to her mom if you meet anybody of interest you think are intriguing, let me know, because on weekends I can have some time, I could meet up and potentially photograph and build a portfolio. And she said well, I just met this young woman and she's an absolute original. I've never met anybody like her. You need to call her now. So I called her and the next morning I was down there. I mean, it was just crazy. It would never happen like that today. You know this. You know it's just. It just doesn't happen that way Because everybody is so guarded and protective. Who is this guy calling me? I don't know. There was a certain let's just call it naivete, but that's the way it worked.
Richard Corman:When I had left Dick's, I was one of the things about working for Avidon. When I left, his studio doors opened for me because I had access and he gave me access to knocking on people's doors. But you know, I'm here to tell you you get one shot, you know, and the door will open, but it can close quickly. But it can close quickly and you know, the pressure was always Matt. You know how do I create something that is successful? And of course, I tripped over my own feet along the way, but I've also, I think there were some that allowed me to keep going, whether it was, you know, and it was all editorial work Back in the day.
Richard Corman:That's how you you know. It was free promotion. Oh, that's Richard Corman. Let's get in touch with him, let's find out where he is. So that gave us carte blanche to free exposure. You got paid $30 a page for a magazine or $60 for a cover, if you were lucky, and if you were lucky, ever getting paid, especially the European publications. They were notorious, yeah, it just took forever, and so you know that's how it began.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, I mean, and and you, you eventually right, you, you kind of. I mean, the list of the icons that you photographed are almost endless, but you've got Darcy Kistler on behind you on the wall there. Madonna, obviously, jean-michel Basquiat, nelson Mandela, muhammad Ali, michael Jordan, meryl Streep, rob Niro, philip Philip Seymour Hoffman. The list goes on and on and on.
Matt Jacob:Yeah, rob Niro, philip Seymour Hoffman, the list goes on, and on and on, and that's not just dropping names, because you look at these images and they are iconic images. They speak to a sensibility, but they also speak to a strength and a real honesty in those photographs, really, really very powerful and inspiring. I'm keen to touch on something you just said about almost stepping out of Richard Avedon's shadow, and certainly in the style and the way you wanted to shoot. But looking back at those a lot of the iconic images that you shot maybe iconic is too much of a broad label label, but I'm interested, both technically and metaphorically, how you go about creating such iconic images. And maybe it's just spur of the moment and or mistakes, like you talked about.
Richard Corman:But tell me your process back then about you know how to, how you would go about making a subject iconic in a photograph well, um, I never try to make somebody iconic in a photograph, uh, but what I do do is is try to make a, um, a photograph, uh, approachable, accessible, uh, real and maybe at that moment the best troops in those people that I'm photographing. How do I draw that out? So you mentioned Darcy Kistler behind me. You know, here's one of the greatest. I was asked to do the New York City Ballet Campaign in 1995. I was asked to do the New York City Ballet Campaign in 1995. And we were photographing all their iconic dancers and iconic ballets, and this was, of course, swan Lake. So here I am, a kid from New York City, and all I can think of is a pond in front of the Plaza Hotel. But how the hell do you do that? You know well, you know, in my it's like well, you build a scaffold stage and you build it underwater and you create an eight by eight foot piece of plexiglass, an eighth of an inch below the water, so that we can row her out there and put her on there, so that her, she can stand on point with just a little bit of water, so that almost looks like she's walking on water. But I never wanted to hide the water. I didn't want it to be a trick. It's like,30 in the morning, the sun was rising at the east and I have this gorgeous creature who happens to be this brilliant artist. We have guys and waiters pushing her out on a boat, I have 50 people behind me and she steps onto this and she becomes this swan in the most elegant, beautiful. It's almost as if she's hanging from a string and you just set her down there. It was beyond glorious and I think one of the things that I've been privy to over the years is also photographing artists, whether they're entertainers, singers, dancers in character, and in many ways it's a lot easier for them. It's easier for Darcy to be that swan than to be Darcy, if you will.
Richard Corman:Philip Seymour Hoffman as Capote. When Philip Seymour Hoffman walked into the studio, he was Capote and he did not change for a moment. The sound of his voice, the gestures with his hands, the way he was dressed, the tilt of a head, the twinkle in his eye. He was never Philip Seymour Hoffman, he was Truman Capote and it was genius. You know, when Michael Douglas was Gordon Gekko. You know, for Wall Street in 1987, he was that beast where you know which. You know that famous line of greed is good. You know he portrayed that. He brought it to me. I knew what I needed to do and I set him up in such a way so that it was easier for him. But he, he created that. Uh, you know, uh, give me an example.
Matt Jacob:How did you set it up for him? That made it easier for him Um?
Richard Corman:we were on set, uh, we had 45 minutes. Uh, my assistant and I had looked all over. We had, uh, we had five or six low shit, uh, five or six locations preset because there were other actors as well to photograph. Every minute they stopped filming cost them thousands of dollars. So I had Oliver Stone and his producer. You know breathing down my neck because I had to create a campaign in moments, and so I set up. You know Michael behind his desk, that you know that power office and he leaned into me on that desk and you just saw right behind his eyes. Know that. You know, fuck, you, fuck the world. You know, uh, it's all about money and greed and I will take it. You know, uh, uh, from everyone, uh, and you know that image has stood up. Every time there's a financial crisis or there's a sense of greed or illicit trading, that picture pops up. It represents more than the movie. It represents let's just call it a movement in the financial world, and in most cases, not a healthy one. But it was a lot of fun to take because it was fictional, but it was a beautiful moment.
Richard Corman:When I photographed Mandela in South Africa in his cell, I flew 27 hours to spend seven minutes with him and to shoot nine frames. But I knew how important it would be. And this was, I think, the second time he had gone back to the cell where he had spent 17 years. I think the second time he had gone back to the cell where he had spent 17 years, robben Island had been closed to inmates. But he came back and it was arguably the most powerful moment in my entire life, other than the birth of my child. It was like I said to him. I said this has to be so difficult for you to be back here. He says it brings me such joy Because by that time he had changed the world. You know, he had brought so much integrity and empowerment to his people, to his community. I said to him it's such an honor to meet you. Now, please know, he didn't know who the hell I was and he said it is such an honor to meet you. And he said it with such generosity. And it wasn't just. There was no pretense to it other than he was just honoring another human being. And there was such humanity in that moment. And when he sat in his cell and that smile came out and that double exposure happened, it was like and I didn't know this till I came back. It was like, and I didn't know this till I came back, it was wow, you know. It was like his spirit overseeing him in some bizarre, beautiful, magical moment, and I'll never forget it.
Richard Corman:These are the things that you say when you go in to take an iconic picture. You hope certain people walk on water. This is the best way to describe it. I know how Most people don't. You're dealing with another human being, man. You don't know what's going to happen, you don't you think, well, it'll be an interesting photograph of just somebody's face because they're so interesting. Well, maybe before they're shooting, they're sitting in the corner smoking a cigarette or something, and it's just so beautiful that that ends up being the picture. Or there's a window there that they're sitting in, or the light is coming.
Richard Corman:You're dealing with the human condition and you're dealing with complicated people. This is what I find fascinating about people. We are all so complicated, we come from complicated families and we share it, at least to me. I see it in all kinds of ways. Uh, and my hope is that it tells the story to you, who was looking at one of my pictures, and I'm not there to explain it. Uh, and it's your interpretation. That's real uh, not mine, even though I'm trying to share, uh, as I say that best truth uh at that moment, but who knows?
Matt Jacob:yeah, best truth, I like that best truth of of the subject, but also of yourself, right, we talked about this at the start. How?
Richard Corman:yeah, uh. Yeah, it is our diary. I write occasionally, but I'm not a writer. I sometimes have to write the stories of the pictures, but this is our diary. I can look at any picture I've ever taken and I don't necessarily have a great memory and I can tell you what it smelled like, because at that moment, matt, there is nothing more important to me. I could have had the worst morning in my life, but when I am there and I am in it, I am in it 150%, because I love the process and I feel responsible for you. You know, maybe too much, but I feel responsible for that individual.
Matt Jacob:And the people around. I mean, there's so many of your images and so many, so many images that photographers take. We don't necessarily think about the effects they have on on the people. Seeing them right, the inspiration, the curiosity, the awareness, the intrigue, whatever it might be for the viewer, but also also the people around. In that moment and this reminds me of, uh, a story that I hope you can you can tell us. In your shoot with madonna, I think, you reconnected with a man 30 years later, who, who got hold of you and told you what kind of that moment meant to him.
Richard Corman:I'll do it, I'm doing it to service, please, please, tell us you're not and it was an interesting moment because I photographed Madonna with a or five kids from the neighborhood. Well, as it turns out, madonna sang and danced with all of them on the rooftop three or four times a week. She was the Pied Piper of the neighborhood and then she would have a pizza party in her one room apartment. They would sit on her bed and have pizza and they looked out for her. Well, as it turns out, over the years and I think there were four or five of them, I think two or three of them passed for drugs and hit by a car and God knows what, and one of them had been in prison and he saw that I was having an exhibit, a solo show, at a place called Milk Gallery, and I'd never shown exhibited these pictures before. This was in 2013, with the launch of the book, and he reached out to me. He said I was there, I'm the guy you know and his name was LR. I'm the guy you know and his name was LR, and I always thought that this was a kid who was 12 and he looked like he was 42. You know, he had just aged and his story was so compelling to me that I went up to the correctional institution and I met him and his wife and then I went back with a film crew and I filmed an interview and took some pictures of him and the story, you know, we always see it through our eyes. We don't often hear from, as you're suggesting, from the others.
Richard Corman:Well, what was it like being photographed by me? Not like, you know what was the? You know, what did you feel? You know, did you feel I was some idiot? You know, did I bother you? Did I annoy you? Did I bother you? Did I annoy you? But when I walked into that stoop, when I walked into that building, madonna had said you have to call physically injured. Uh, because it was a. You know, there were, like you know, 12 or 15 kids out there, but once I said I was there to see Madonna, the C's part, uh, because there was so much love for her, uh. So it was interesting to hear his perspective on on that shoot and things about her that I didn't know and how kind and generous she was with them, to them, for them, uh.
Matt Jacob:So it was a, um, uh it was memorable, uh, to say the least. How and I asked this question with trepidation, but how do you feel photography has changed, for the better or for the worse, in since then? Right, obviously, we've had so many evolutions and growths and changes in photography in terms of equipment, but in terms of commercial landscape as well. Looking back and talking about these moments, these experiences, 40 years ago, how would you sum up, kind of the the journey that photography has been on over the last four decades?
Richard Corman:um, as we talked about. I mean, we're talking about an analog world and a digit in a digitized world. So we're talking about process of communication and we're talking about immediate gratification in the digital world. Uh, I think that is um, I think those are are some of the tenets of both. That work for and against. Uh, because today it's so immediate.
Richard Corman:Uh, maybe you don't work as hard for a photograph because you see it captured onto the back of your camera or onto a monitor and it's like we got it, it's done. Well, maybe it wasn't done, but we just, you know, we just thought, well, that looks done. Well, maybe it wasn't done, but we just thought, well, that looks great, we don't need to push it any further, whereas back in 1983, you didn't know what the hell you had, you just kept shooting and kept communicating. It still is all about communication to me. It still it still is that.
Richard Corman:Uh, but you mean with the people that you photograph, with the people. It is a, it is a, it is a communicative process. For me it will never change, it will never be anything less than that. But you know, there's more fear today when you're taking somebody's picture, and if it happens to be somebody, it doesn't even matter if it's somebody of note. There's this fear of I mean, as soon as I have that file, it can travel the world in seconds. In 1983, it was like there was a little bit of a safety net. It wasn't going anywhere, it couldn't go anywhere.
Matt Jacob:It was yours.
Richard Corman:It was yours and I'll share it with you in a week or two, and it was just different. The process was different, but people are not necessarily different.
Matt Jacob:Uh, it was a different time, different capabilities what about the commercial side of it and the commercial landscape and ecosystem that we've, we have to battle through daily as freelance photographers, is it? Tell me? Tell me the differences, even 10 years ago. Tell me, tell me what it's like, how, how, how you get money out of you, know your art and what that process is, selling yourself and connections and networking and social media and all of this stuff that goes into waking up and trying to make a living from photography.
Richard Corman:Um, from the beginning it was, you know, all editorial and we were testing. It was called. You would go out and you'd find somebody that you were interested in and you would take pictures. It wouldn't cost you anything, it wouldn't cost them anything. It was just this, trying to figure it out. Who am I as an artist? Who am I as a photographer? What is it that separates me from you?
Richard Corman:I never consciously thought of that, but the whole process, I mean, this is what we were doing and then we got into the editorial work, which, just as we discussed earlier, which was a way of sharing the work globally so that people could see who the hell took that picture and could we work with him. Could I take Richard Corman and do a Coca-Cola campaign with him, because he had that sensibility? You know, that's how you transition from editorial into the commercial world. And then, all of a sudden, you needed representation, because while I was out shooting, I need somebody.
Richard Corman:You know, we used to build six to 10 portfolios. I mean hard copy portfolios that would be silver, gelatin prints, 16 by 20 books that cost a fortune, custom made books, and they would travel the world While I was working. My agent would send things out to clients and art buyers and ad agencies, because at the time the only way I could make a living was as a commercial photographer. You know, today I make a living as a fine art photographer. I'm able to sell limited edition prints of work that I do. I'm not a commercial photographer anymore. It just so happens that there might be a very large commercial project coming up. I mean, it just happened literally a week ago, the largest thing I've ever done.
Richard Corman:I can't mention the name, but it's just rare that those things happen for somebody like me. But I am constantly trying to. I'm not very effective on social media I have a few thousand people that follow me but I've been fairly successful at uh, uh, selling into the art world and I I think the hardest thing I've done in my career is cross that line between the commercial world and the fine art world. That's a tricky one, because if they, if they see you as the guy that shoots uh, you know, uh, the uh Coca-Cola ad, then you're a commercial photographer, you know. If they see you as the guy that does all this, these stock images of, uh, beautiful landscapes or whatever that's you know that's who you are, uh, so it's um, uh, it's a different landscape, no-transcript, hbo. I mean all. I did all of it, but now I think my bread and butter is the fine art world and I'm really proud of that and trying desperately to make it as a, as somebody who's respected by galleries and museums around the world.
Richard Corman:Not easy to do, particularly not easy to do with portraits, because a lot of people don't want to live with the face of somebody that they don't know in their home. I get that with the face of somebody that they don't know in their home. I get that. I have people that walk into a gallery where I'm showing work. I can't live with him in my room. I said okay, and yet the next person walks in and says I have to have that. That represents peace to me. I need to live with that, whether it's somebody you know or don't know. In my case, most of the pictures I've taken are people you know, you know, uh, but um, uh, it really is. Uh, you know. Art is so personal, matt. Uh, what you want to live with or what you don't, what you like, what you don't like, uh, it's. Uh, you know, you know it's.
Matt Jacob:That's a personal journey yeah, I find, uh, I'd love to hear your thoughts on you know what, what the strategies are to sell prints these days? Uh, certainly, portraits. I've I found the same thing. I mean, I'm mostly a portrait photographer and you know, people just don't want random strangers on their wall. At the end of the day, the majority of people they want maybe something a little bit more abstract, or a landscape or architecture or something like that. So I definitely empathize, um, but give us an idea for those that are watching and listening, who might want to kind of up their game in the fine art world and maybe have not been exhibited before, uh, in galleries, or featured in galleries or exhibited in exhibitions tell us how you kind of navigate that world and and battle that, those, those barriers to entry, yeah, uh, well we will get.
Richard Corman:We're going to get it at some point when we have private time. I want to talk to you about what you do, because your work tends to be more ethereal. You know, it tends to be groups of people that most of us do not touch, or, uh, these are people that we don't know. Where are they, who are they? What part of the world are you in? They are pieces of sculpture.
Richard Corman:When you look at my pictures and you see Muhammad Ali, you know exactly who you're looking at. Muhammad Ali, you know exactly who you're looking at. Uh, now, he was my greatest hero, so to me it's a no brainer. You know, I, I could live with Muhammad Ali, you know, forever, um, uh, but for a lot of people, um, it's a different, it's different. So what is the process? You knock on a lot of doors. You find a gallery that believes in you.
Richard Corman:You are persistent, respectfully persistent, and a lot of times with me, it is literally walking into a gallery and say I just want to introduce myself, and it is not easy to do because I don't like it and it's uncomfortable because once again I'm saying you got to look at me, you know, I mean, you know, I photograph all these people, blah, blah. I can't say that. You know it's very hard to do that for me. It'd be easier for you to walk and say, yeah, you should look at Richard's work. He's photographed some interesting folks. So I am working with someone now who's going to be doing all that legwork for me, and it's taken a while to find the right person. She's smart, she's a businesswoman, she's also a big art. You know she's an artist, so she gets it. So hopefully this will work.
Richard Corman:Everybody does it differently. It could be an image that goes viral, that it's like well, who is that artist? Social media, sure, a lot of people want to see videos, they want to see these sound bites where Richard is in front of Madonna. It's like, well, you know, it was 1983 and I walked up. I was on the Lower East Side and I was introduced to her and I walked up and met her and I looked up the staircase and I saw these beautiful cat-like eyes looking down at me and I knew right then and there that this was somebody to be reckoned with. This was, you know, uh, somebody special.
Matt Jacob:You know we're gonna make that sound bite for you, so you can share it okay you know, um, uh, and you know it.
Matt Jacob:It goes on and on with the stories, uh I feel like, through, like through the rhetoric of just having seen your work for so long and now understanding a little bit more about you, I feel like there is a common denominator here of not necessarily being judged, but still that fear, still that kind of reticence to almost put yourself out there or at least self-talk and talk-talk and really sell yourself in these environments, and especially if you're crossing over from almost one sector to another, from commercial to fine art or editorial to commercial, whatever it might be. This is something that we all share. How do you just kind of push through that? How do you just kind of push through that?
Richard Corman:Well, I think that little bit of anxiety, those butterflies that you have in your stomach before a shoot, happens every time. It doesn't matter whom I'm photographing, whether it's the president of a country or whether it's the president of a bank. You know it is, you know, I feel it. It always feels like the first time. Why? Because everybody that you meet is different and unique and you don't really know what to expect. I just finished a body of work. I have an exhibit up now on jazz musicians. Where is that exhibit? At 473 Amsterdam Avenue in New York City.
Richard Corman:And, matt, it's remarkable because of this community of people. I've never been around a group of people who, when they stand in front of the camera, their you know, their soul, their energy, their, their determination to share their love of music pours out of them. I pretty much don't. I become a voyeur? I don't. There isn't much I need to do. I can't explain it. It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen and it, just, it, just it's there. They are telling me the story and they are giving me the privilege to uh, shooting a few frames of them every time.
Matt Jacob:I don't accept. I don't accept that, richard, I think you're being way too humble. Um, I, I, I want us to to be able to try and identify how you are able to reveal who someone is rather than what they'd look like. Right, and I'm sure after doing it for so long, it's just natural to you. It might just be an energy thing that people feel so comfortable around you. They feel so they can be vulnerable, they can be honest, transparent. But how do we really kind of pass that out and how do we pass that on almost to beginners, to future generations who want that connection and watch, that ability Maybe?
Richard Corman:it's trust, it's certainly communication, and a lot of people have a hard time doing that. Yes, I've had a lot of experience. Yes, when somebody comes in and it looks like he's 95, he's blind, it looks as if he's wearing his pajamas and he's got a bass saxophone. That is just so beautiful and he sits in a chair and the saxophone is kind of between his legs and he just starts playing and he's blind and it's the most beautiful thing and I start taking pictures because there's nothing else he needs to do. That's it. Why should I try to manipulate that? Because what we do is so manipulative or can be.
Matt Jacob:Well, I think what I'm learning and hopefully the audience is learning and this goes into something else you've said before and I'll try and quote you word for word the experience of photographing somebody outweighs any photograph I could possibly take. So there is this philosophy and intention before you go into a shoot, whereas, look, I'm here for the experience. I want to, I want to embody the soul of the people, that that that I'm photograp, the experience I want to, I want to embody the soul of the people, that that that I'm photographing. I just want to soak up the experience and I think if you have that intention going into anything that you might do, let alone photography anything, then you you're going to impart that trust, you're going to really kind of allow people to to be who they are, without focusing on right. I need the shot, I need the shot, I need the shot, I need the shot, I need the shot, even if you do have seven minutes to grab a shot on set, because it's costing thousands and thousands of dollars.
Richard Corman:I will quote you on the quote of mine. I will quote you on that because it's so true. I mean, how can I share that experience of this beautiful gentleman who has so much wisdom and so much energy at that point in his life? He can't see any longer. But it's all about. You know the art, you know it's all about sharing it with us, but it's the sound. It's all about sharing it with us, but it's the sound.
Richard Corman:I was in a little room at the Apollo Theater. I set up a studio the size of a closet because we had no more room to work in and I learned very early on you don't need much room to take a picture, to take a strong picture. And he filled the room. Um, and it was. It was magical.
Richard Corman:You know, there was another instance where I was photographing, 99 years old, arguably the greatest uh drummer percussionist in the world, roy Haynes, full on dementia. Full on dementia walks in with a purple suit and a cowboy hat and he was so. I can't explain it, but he was all over the place. All over the place, but there was a moment where he stopped place. All over the place, but there was a moment where he stopped and lifted his head a little bit and just that eye contact, one frame, and it wasn't as if I was waiting for that, but I was prepared.
Richard Corman:You know, uh, one thing I've learned, uh early on, is you never put your camera down. You know, in those kinds of situations, because that's when things happen and you just don't know. Um, and that was another one of those moments. It's like that experience. Nobody will know, looking at that picture, that he has dementia. Nobody will know that story. Well, I'll have to tell the story as we're discussing it now and share it, which I do openly, uh, because, uh, it was, uh, maybe he felt safe for a moment, maybe there was just that cogent moment where he was with me, it was present, it was allowing me in, uh, and it was beautiful.
Matt Jacob:Hmm, sounds it, and it was beautiful, sounds it. How do you then go on and measure the success of something like that? I mean, we always talk about being. We, as in Western society, talk about being successful a lot and you, having, you know, been in one industry for so long and and now, now a venerable expert, uh for sure.
Richard Corman:How do you do you look? You want to leave a legacy. You'd like what you do to make a little bit of a difference. I'd like to be recognized as somebody who is formidable in terms of what I do and I want to continue doing it. I don't know how else to say it. You know, somebody once asked me do you think you're a great photographer? I would never say that. I leave that up to other people. It's not in my vocabulary.
Matt Jacob:What is the difference between good and great?
Richard Corman:I think great is being fearless, and I think that's a big part of what we do. Be fearless to put yourself in a situation that you're uncomfortable with. And if you're in it and you're uncomfortable, good, because I think, ultimately, the best work can come from pushing yourself into a corner that doesn't quite suit you. And it happens all the time. When you're dealing with people it's like oh my God, this is not working. What can I do? How can I fix it? Do, uh, how can I fix it? You know, uh, you know, it's not like I'm taking a picture of a piece of architecture. You know, I I am with a human being. Where do I move them? How do I get through to them?
Matt Jacob:part of the process yeah, what is the, what is the process for you moving forward? I think we've already touched upon this, but I know that maybe I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher another quote from you, but in my world it's always about in my world, it's always about the next right. So what is which is? Which is? Which is a a very delicate balance between being in the present moment, enjoying the process, but also planning for the future, working on future projects that you want to do, having ideas, especially as creatives. It's just ideas flowing around all the time. What is next for you?
Richard Corman:It seems like the fine art world is something that you want to continue diving into but because, once that one photograph is taken of that gentleman with dementia, you're, you're on to the next. You know, uh, and it's, it's done, uh, this group of photographs, if you exhibit and you publish that, you revisit those photographs, those stories totally totally.
Richard Corman:You know I'm finishing up a documentary now where my photographs are a big part of it. It's on the transgender community in the military in the United States and it's very powerful people that I knew nothing about Nothing and I didn't understand why they were being so disenfranchised and pushed to the ground and being murdered and disrespected. These are patriots who are out there fighting for our freedoms at home and we had nothing but respect for those folks and this is a documentary. I hope it will be out in a year or so. A friend of mine is directing it, but it's really a project that I started seven years ago. We've been able to raise the funds to complete it and it will, I think, be historic because of what's going on in the world today.
Matt Jacob:Why does that topic mean so much to you? Is it just purely out of curiosity?
Richard Corman:Because it bothers me to see people you know bullied like that. I've always been somebody that you know. I grew up with disabled brothers and I was always trying to stand up for them Painful, not easy and always looking out for those less fortunate.
Matt Jacob:And is this now, then, moving into a realm of photography for impact awareness and, hopefully, change?
Richard Corman:I've done it all my career. It's not been highlighted. You know, I've spent since 1991, I've photographed athletes with intellectual disability, with the Kennedys and the Shrivers, the Special Olympics, all over the world. You know, I've tried to empower these athletes. I've tried empower these athletes. I try. These are heroic people. They are the purest form of joy and love and determination that I've ever seen.
Richard Corman:You know I've worked with all kinds of nonprofits that are, you know, fighting for folks that are, you know, are less fortunate. You know, inclusion means everything to me. You know these are people that deserve a shot and they're, quite frankly, more able-bodied than you know. There's nothing disabled about them. Quite frankly, more able-bodied than you know, there's nothing disabled about them. You know I did a book called Glory, my first book, in 1998. It had a lot to do with world-class athletes and these athletes why? Because I thought when a Special Olympian holding his or her gold medal next to a Michael Jordan, it made Michael stronger, you know, in juxtaposition, you know, because there is such fire in their belly to succeed. You know they believe it all on the field and you know that is a life lesson.
Matt Jacob:Of course, Well, I've learned a lot of life lessons talking to you over the last hour or so. Thank you so much for joining me. What should we be watching out for and where can people find you? I know you've got some books out there. Obviously, exhibitions if you're in New York, documentary coming out when can we?
Richard Corman:see yours. The jazz exhibit goes from New York documentary coming out. Where can we, where can we see jazz? Uh, the jazz exhibit goes from New York. It's going to new Orleans, to the national jazz museum in new Orleans, which would be super cool. Uh, I have, um, uh, there will be. I mean, the next book will probably be. I mean, you talk about legacy, maybe a retrospective of sorts. Uh, so about, legacy may be a retrospective of sorts, so it'll tell you know more of an in-depth story. So it's not just you know anything subject matter, specific. It would be from Madonna to Mandela, to women on death row, if you will. You know, because they're all you know, humans that have complicated stories that I'd like to share.
Matt Jacob:Um, so um, social media at richard corman um, yeah, uh, you can find me what do we have to last question, what do we have to think about, as um, maybe beginner photographers, but, you know, hobbyists maybe wanting to go professional? How do we see photography and its industry moving forward over the next five to 10 years, and what do we have to be wary of?
Richard Corman:Uh, you know, everybody's scared of ai. You know, of course, um, but I think, ultimately, I tell every young photographer just take pictures, take pictures, get out there, get dirty. Uh, I, you know, I don't care what camera you use. Uh, this was the lesson that you know. I mean, dick Avedon said the same thing. Just go take pictures, you know um and uh, and find out who you are. Uh and find out, uh. As I said, if you and I were standing next to one another looking at the same exact scene, those photographs would look different. You know, uh, try to create, uh, a rhythm, a sense of who you are as an artist. Uh, if that's what you want to do, whether it's, uh, whether it's a hobby, whether it's, uh, an inclination to turn professional God forbid turn professional.
Matt Jacob:God forbid, because it's painful but rewarding. You've got to love it.
Richard Corman:It's more than that. It's got to be in you and there is no other recourse. You cannot not do it Clearly. You have it, I have it, uh it clearly, you have it, uh, I have it, and, uh, uh, and, and be fearless and take chances and keep climbing.
Matt Jacob:I loved what you talked about being fearless difference between good and gray, so I'm going to, I'm going to take that inspiration, I'm going to go and take some photos and, uh, have my breakfast and um and yeah. I look forward to speaking with you. More importantly, I look forward to seeing you in New York at some point. We will Hopefully in the next few months. I'll be there and hopefully you'll be there as well.
Richard Corman:I look forward man.
Matt Jacob:And we can buy you coffee and we can chat more.
Richard Corman:And then I'll get on that plane and we'll go back to Bali. You know, let's do it.
Matt Jacob:You know that.
Richard Corman:Let's do it that's what I'd like to do and take pictures together in Bali. That would be amazing. Thank you so much, Richard. Such a pleasure.
Matt Jacob:Thank you All right.
Richard Corman:All the best.
