The MOOD Podcast

Why I QUIT Photography - and Came Back STRONGER! - Cam Vaughne, EO86

• Matt Jacob

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“What are you passionate about outside of photography?”

Two years after appearing as the first-ever guest on The MOOD Podcast, cultural photographer Cam Vaughne returns for a full-circle conversation that’s both deeply personal and universally relevant. Known for his culturally sensitive storytelling and ability to capture the essence of life in Bali and beyond, Cam has undergone significant transformation—both creatively and personally—since his first appearance. Cam opens up about how trauma, community, and a return to simplicity reshaped his photography. What follows is an honest, raw, and inspiring conversation about using your lens to document change—both in the world and in yourself.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • How personal hardship can reconnect you with your creative roots
  • Why returning to shooting “just for fun” can reignite your passion
  • The impact of over-tourism and construction on local culture 
  • The power of community and storytelling in healing and rediscovery
  • Finding your unique voice by following what interests you outside of photography
  • Why it’s okay to step away from social media—and how to grow without it
  • Letting go of perfection: why raw moments trump curated shots
  • The importance of staying true to your art and ignoring the noise


Find Cam Vaughne's work on his channels:
Instagram: @camvaughne

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Matt Jacob:

Welcome to the Mood Podcast. I'm covering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time. I'm your host, matt Jacob, and thank you for joining me. Today's guest is Cam Vaugnier. Cam was my first ever guest on the show and this episode was more of a tip of the cap to him and the nostalgia of starting this podcast exactly two years ago with him.

Matt Jacob:

I have a lot of time for Cam. He's my friend and he's a fantastic photographer who has immersed himself in different cultures and holds similar interests to me when it comes to the human experience. Cam's recent journey through some traumatic personal experiences has really grounded himself as a human and as a more inspired and reflective artist, and that's really where we start the conversation, moving then onto the impact of things like tourism around the world and our roles as photographers to help document the rapid changing landscapes of global and populist issues. So now I bring you Cam Vornier. Bro, cam Vornier, I remember we spoke when we first had a chat two years ago. I was like how do I say your last name? Uh, cam von, yay, right, yeah, welcome to the podcast, thank you, brother, I appreciate it.

Matt Jacob:

So this is a special episode because you are one of the first guys to come back, but also it's been two years to the day since we did the first episode. Congratulations, man, man.

Cam Vaughne:

How far you've come.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah. Well, we're still grinding, but you know it's been a journey of which you've been a part of it, so thank you to you. Oh man, I'm honored to be a part of it. What tell me? What's been going on? Two years has gone by, tell me your story, man.

Cam Vaughne:

two years God, we were just just saying this, I feel like it's been 10 a whole lot happens in two years in bali. It ages us, yeah, um, yeah, man, I mean I don't even know where to start with a question like that. Two years, geez, what? What year is it now? 20, 25, um, yeah, a lot's happened, man. A lot, uh, a lot of shifts in in in my, uh, a lot of shifts in in in my work life, um, a lot of shifts in my personal life, uh, yeah, but still still cracking on, still moving, still here, still breathing.

Matt Jacob:

What are you um? What are you doing at the moment in terms of photography? How does your kind of business model look at the moment?

Cam Vaughne:

Man, it's actually things have changed so much in regards to, like, how I'm actually approaching photography and, especially as a business. Um, I, to be honest, like it's. It's turned into more. I feel like I've reverted back and it's exactly what I needed after after the period that I've had. Um, and I'm just shooting for fun, recreationally, having a good time, just going out with friends and shooting whatever I feel like shooting. Not taking on a whole lot of projects, not taking on a whole lot of clients they come here and there. It pays the bills but just going back to the roots of why I started doing this and that's the creative outlet and just being able to actually enjoy picking up a camera and feel pride out of the things that I'm shooting and hopefully shooting things that are giving people a little bit of insight into the experiences that we're having here in Indonesia, here in Bali and in other places that I'm traveling to. So it's been really good. So you?

Matt Jacob:

pick up a camera. Where do you go? What do you do? Pick a direction, just pick a direction, and see.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, pick a time of the morning If I'm feeling ambitious, we get out there real early and and just pick a direction and go until we see something. That that's that catches our attention, catches my attention. Park the bike walk, take some photos, drink some Tuak, smoke a couple ofudang garams and no one knows what you're talking about chat with some locals some palm wine and filterless disgusting soupy cigarettes um, so what?

Matt Jacob:

what was the shift? What, what is? How has photography kind of worked as maybe a healing tool or, you know, a grounding tool that's allowed you to, you know, go and go and find out and go and be better at whatever you're trying to be better at.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, that's a good question, man. Um, honestly, that's the answer is kind of in the question Like that's exactly what it's been. It's been a healing tool. So for a while, like I had things, um, just get this out of the way. And in my personal life, uh, I had a, my marriage, a relationship of 15 years come to an end Um, a lot of changes in my life. My whole family moved here. There's a lot of positives, but also stresses that come along with with things like that. And because of all of the stresses in life, I stopped picking up a camera and I felt like I was only grabbing it in times of work. So when I had somebody else's direction, somebody telling me what they wanted me to shoot, what they wanted me to do, and I feel like when you're caught in that wheel, when you're caught in that cycle, it just you lose the fire, you lose the passion, and so I probably went. Man, there's two things in my life that really bring me a lot of joy on like a hobby level, right.

Matt Jacob:

Other than this podcast right.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, once every two years get my fulfillment, and that's both photography and surfing, and those are two things that I completely stopped doing. I hadn't touched the water in ages. Boards were just collecting dust, my camera equipment was only getting used for work purposes and with that I just I started to feel empty, really, really empty, and I lost those things being an outlet. And as time went on, yeah, I mean, I just I have, thankfully, an amazing community of people. That's one of the biggest blessings about living in a place like this and doing what we do right, there's so many people who are here sharing a similar mindset and a similar outlook, similar passions and interests, and I had a lot of friends, a few in particular, who really stepped up for me and noticed the state that I was in and pulled me out, and one of them is sitting in this room right now.

Matt Jacob:

And it's not me.

Cam Vaughne:

Jordan Hammond sitting off in the corner judging but no, honestly, jordan was a major part in that just noticing where I was and what I was going through and saying man, what are you doing? You know, get up Like this is not you, this isn't. You know, the you that we all know and love like um, and what you're missing is just who was that? Tell us.

Matt Jacob:

George, who was the guy that was? That was different. What, what? Give us some clarity as to kind of what you were going through at that time. Oh, it was just I was just a saddo man. Right, Not going out, not drinking smoking. No, yeah, Like.

Cam Vaughne:

I mean I had, I had. So, yeah, I mean that's a good, that's a good place to go with this. I guess, leading up to, I guess the I'll call it the downfall or whatever you know what my my downhill trajectory for the lack of a better term trajectory, um, for the lack of a better term, uh, before that I had just gotten really into not really into I felt myself stuck in this trap. That's very often, you know, um, really sticky here, which is the social scene you know, and when you're here for a long period of time I mean, I've been here almost a decade now and um called this place home for almost 10 years and, uh, and in that period there's just so many distractions. It's very easy to live a fun and chaotic life because there's so much happening. Everyone's coming in and out, there's always an event, there's always a dinner, there's always a party, there's always friends who want your attention and people who might not deserve your attention, who you're giving your attention to.

Cam Vaughne:

And, um, I was getting dragged into situations that just took me way out of my comfort zone, and not in a good way. Um, I'm a strong component of, you know, going outside of your comfort zone, but when it's changing who you are and changing your outlook on things that mean a lot to you, um, then it it becomes a poison. And that was that was partying, going out and just indulging too much in the distractions that, uh, a lively, vibrant place like this island can, can, you know, come with. And uh, with that, I just I started to lose sight of who I was and what I love to do, and um, was prioritizing these events and um, uh, as an escape, you know, and uh, then things happened the way that they happened and my life, slowly, it felt like it's slowly not to go on.

Cam Vaughne:

We can cue the tiny violin right, but, um, I felt like things were just things, just my life wasn't reflecting that of what I'd always hoped it would be, you know, and that comes with a lot of weight, and when you feel disappointed in yourself and what you're doing, it becomes really difficult to do. Anything that you know makes you feel better, you know. So, if I know that going out and grabbing my board and going for a paddle will make me feel better, I'm not going to do it, because it's like you get to this point of self-sabotage where the things that you know you love become the things that you're most afraid of, because they'll pull you out of that feeling, that validation of like. I'm sad, you know, I'm depressed.

Matt Jacob:

You almost. I don't want to say you enjoy being like that, but there's like a desire to keep being like that, to be depressed, to be, you know, at rock bottom. It's like, no, fuck all this, I know what can, I know what can help me get better, but I choose to be this way. It's almost like it's exactly that self-sabotage. And I'm talking about this. I don't want to put you on the spot because I know it's difficult, but I wanted to talk about this because of people watching, people listening.

Matt Jacob:

You might've experienced the same things. I mean, there's no like playing violins about it. You went through one of the most difficult things that people can ever go through, Right? So you know, I think it's important that a you've come out the other side, which is hugely inspirational and and congratulations for you know getting through something so difficult. But it's important to understand. You know how you, how you came out of it. But in order to understand how you came out of it, we kind of want to know how you got into it, but what it was like being, being being that type of person.

Cam Vaughne:

So thank you for sharing.

Matt Jacob:

You talked about friends, that kind of help pull you out. Give us a bit more specifics, like give us a little ingredient. That was it. One day you kind of had a seminal moment, like right, I'm up, I'm out.

Cam Vaughne:

I feel like I had a couple moments like that, like it, it it's a cycle, it's a vicious cycle where, um, you'll, you feel like you're on an upward trajectory and somebody pulls you out and someone's there to be there and, you know, take you out to do the things that you know you really want to do and the things that make you happy, and then, when that person, maybe you almost start to repel the things that you know are helping you, you know, um, just that, yeah, like we said before, it's self-sabotaging, but having persistent people in your life who really want to see the best out of you is just the most encouraging and uplifting thing you can possibly have.

Cam Vaughne:

And that's a place where I know for myself I have to give myself a lot of credit, and I'll happily do that that over the years, having moved away, like so many of us have done, coming here to Bali, coming here to Indonesia or going to any other country from where they're from, you're forced to go out and create a family and create community. And I'm very proud of the community or of the community that I've built, because these people, just they stuck by me and they made sure that that, uh, I, I wasn't going too deep into my own mind and um pulling me into the things that that they knew I should be doing. So very grateful for myself and them.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, and so you should be. Um, but has that experience if you look back over, I guess, the year sandwich, I guess, between you being on the show and now. Has that changed your photography style? Has it changed your out? It must've changed your outlook on the creative process.

Cam Vaughne:

Absolutely yeah, and I mean I think that shift was already starting even before. Absolutely yeah, and I mean I think that shift was already starting even before all of my personal life things were starting to happen. I was taking the I mean I think we talked about it last time like COVID played a massive part in my approach to photography where we were stuck, stuck, yeah, yeah, stuck on paradise. Yeah, Arguably one of the best times of my life. Sorry, Everyone here.

Matt Jacob:

maybe didn't feel the same, but I'm very envious of you guys. Oh, you weren't here. That's right, man Ah yeah, well, it was.

Cam Vaughne:

It was an amazing time that, that where you saw a massive shift where this island was going from uh, just this mass tourism hub, and then all of a sudden, everything was quiet and desolate and the only people who were here. I read the statistic the other day. What was it? I might butcher this, correct me, or you can put up if it's wrong, but fact check me, or fact check me, but um, I think it was like during COVID, there was maybe 1500 expats foreigners who were living on the island.

Cam Vaughne:

So I think it was or no, 2023, there were over 750,000.

Matt Jacob:

Oh my goodness.

Cam Vaughne:

So that number, like, if you can imagine, like the accessibility and what we were experiencing when we were here before, it was this feeling of there weren't many of us and the ones who were here, everyone had to. It forced integration with the local community. It forced everyone to kind of come together and be in this together. Now, the restrictions weren't crazy. I feel like the Indonesian government would kind of drunk, text the whole country on a Friday and be like okay, guys, we're going to close down this, this, this, this and this, everything's all, all the roads, all the restaurants, like like nothing's going to be open. There's a curfew, blah, blah, blah. They'd set out all of these rules and then close the government offices and then on Monday they'd come on and Facebook and Twitter and Instagram would be all these people, just just, you know, um, what do you mean? Blah, blah, blah, blah. We're not abiding by this. And then the government would be like whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, hold, on, hold on. That's not what we meant, that's not what we meant. And then they would amend it immediately and be like oh, no, no, no, no, and it would change and everything would open back up again. But yeah, going back to what I was saying before. It forced this integration where all of us were just in this together. And that feeling just resonated so deeply with me and caused me to really take time when we had the ability to drive around the island, because things stayed relatively open accessibility to drive and experience Bali. And during that time I was just myself, jord and a few other people who were all here together. We just set off and I would even go on my own.

Cam Vaughne:

I remember the first Galangon during COVID. I set off with the intention of I packed a bag with a camera and said I was going to go out for one week and just see where the road took me. I'd go from one village to the next to meet a family there, and then they'd say, oh, I have an uncle over in Bulalang, go over there. I'd go over there and then they'd say, oh well, we know these people in Nagara, they're doing an event there, go over there. I'd go over there, just sleeping on people's floors, breaking bread with locals and spending as much time as I could with the local community.

Cam Vaughne:

And that inspired this new revitalization within me and my photography journey to just capture Bali the way that I was seeing it and I fell in love with the people and I fell deeply in love with this island and it gave me so much during that time and, yeah, so that's where that change really came from. But that one week of going out and doing that turned into 40 days. So I literally stayed out for almost 40 days, just going from one house to the next, one village to the next, just capturing whatever I saw and not really doing much with it, just keeping it for my own, you know, to live on my hard drives. It's a habit I have, but it gave me a new perspective and it gave me a new fire that I wanted to, or a direction that I wanted to, take my photography, and that's when the cultural side started to seep its way in, and that's I just became obsessed.

Matt Jacob:

And is that something you're dipping into again now, like, is that some kind of route that you want to reconnect with?

Cam Vaughne:

absolutely yeah, and I think it's gone even more from what I was doing before was trying to learn as much as I could about local traditions and stories and and customs and and um uh, ceremonies and everything that was going on, just trying to get as connected to it as I could so I could understand it and then portray it in a way where maybe I could capture an entire ceremony or an entire belief or something in one series of images. And that came with like maybe staging some things and you know, trying to maybe bring in certain dancers to to do this at this location, and it just it was. It was a bit more staged than what I'm doing now. Now, I just love the rawness of going out with my camera and shooting street and it's something that just holds my attention now and I'm really enjoying.

Matt Jacob:

How do you see the island at the moment and I want to use Bali as almost a metaphor for the world in terms of tourism, and you know you talked about being mass tourism hub pre-covid. Now it's arguably that and more. Yeah, how, how do you, you know, is this something that you feel strongly about generally and and do you see it having a negative impact on what you're interested in the most in terms of the culture, the, the local, you know, indigenous people, the, the spirituality and the closeness that we can get, if we wanted to to, to the on it?

Cam Vaughne:

yeah, I think this is a this is an interesting topic, right, because it's really easy to play the gatekeeper, to try and play the gatekeeper and be like I remember when bali, when Bali, was this and that and you know, and just all that nonsense. And and on one hand, yeah, it can be a little bit sad when you go to certain places that you used to revere and love and you, you remember when it was just crickets, you know it was, you could have this beautiful location to yourself and just rolling rice fields, without bamboo villas obstructing every single view and frame. But so it's easy to take that perspective. But at the same time, I see I kind of get a little bit of inspiration from locals who I've talked to about this topic and just asking them how do you feel about this, this influx of tourism? And of course, you get some people who are like you know, who have a negative outlook on it, but for the most part it just shows most Balinese people who you talk to I would say their perspective is just like it's happening and we're going to smile.

Cam Vaughne:

Bali keeps smiling. You know, we're, we're, we're, we're happy, like there's happening and we're going to smile. Bali keeps smiling, we're happy there's opportunities and things are happening and we're growing and we're evolving. And so, with the negatives that might come, or the surface level negatives that might come from over tourism, there's also this beautiful opportunity to be a part of something that's thriving and growing. And while we might get stuck in traffic here in Canggu with all the honks and the pollution and this and that and new beach clubs popping up on every corner, it's also yeah, it's just an opportunity to be able to show a juxtaposition of these worlds that are intertwining.

Cam Vaughne:

And I think that's something that I've gotten really infatuated with lately is going and seeing construction, seeing, you know, right next to a local home, in a local village, in a two cot, there's this, this villa or restaurant being built. It shows this real timestamp and that's only going to be uh, or it's only going to look the way it looks right now, and I think you can do that anywhere with photography, right Like that's what we're doing is we're capturing a certain moment in time, and this moment in time in Bali is so interesting because of how much is happening. It's just, it's thriving, people have jobs, people have opportunity. The streets might be more crowded, but you got to give credit where it's due. The Balinese are so resilient and they're so reverent and they're going to keep doing what they do, no matter what's going on around them, and I think that that's just such a beautiful testament to this place and these people. So, yeah, there's a lot of pros to come out of this wave that we're experiencing right now.

Matt Jacob:

It's a good way of looking at it and it's the same. It's not just Bali, I mean, I don't really want to like isolate it just to Bali, because you know, people may not have been to Bali watching, listening to this, and it's indicative of of many, I guess. Growing economically anyway, growing cities, both economically and geographically growing cities, growing countries around the world. All we're doing as a globe right, is growing because it's you know, we're having more and more people in the world every day and people have more and more opportunities as we, you know, learn, educate better and better. But you know, if we were to come back to this place and really I guess you can make it analogous to any city or any new city or any, I guess, more modernized and growing place in the world there has to be a point of diminishing returns.

Matt Jacob:

Bali, specifically, is a tourist island, right. It's known to attract holiday makers, basically because of its beauty, because of its culture, because of its traditions, sometimes because of the party scene, et cetera. But you can get that anywhere. There has to be a point where the growth goes so far, to the point where it's not attractive anymore, right? So the priority has to obviously be the local population. Are we helping them right? I say we just the foreigners that are coming in the foreign investment, whether they come to reside in expat investment or the tourism scene.

Matt Jacob:

We won't talk about how the government kind of play into that, but surely there has to be a point where this can't keep going forever.

Matt Jacob:

Right, and the locals seem to be, like you said, thriving and enjoying more success in their own environments, but there has to be a point where that starts to actually detract from their success. But I don't know if I'm a bit pessimistic with that viewpoint, but I don't want, from a personal standpoint, but also from just wanting Bali to remain a place where people want to come and want to go. You know, if they keep building, it's not going to be that place. If they keep throwing plastic in the ocean, it's not going to be that place. If they keep struggling to, you know, get rid of trash, it's not going to be that place. If they keep bringing money in because it's money, but they don't think about the, the, the strain on the infrastructure and the strain on the future generations that may have to, you know, live with this, then it's not going to be a beautiful place that people want it, so there is a point, right, yeah, I mean very, very valid concerns.

Cam Vaughne:

I have the same concerns, Uh, but then also just to offer the other side of it. It's, it's um, one way that I've kind of tried to to to shift my perspective when I'm thinking, cause it's, it's so like I take the pessimist perspective as well. Too often it's too hard or it's too easy to but um, uh, if you look at other islands that are developing um, throughout Indonesia right now as well, Bali is leaps and bounds ahead and it's because there are a lot of forward thinkers who are coming here. And if you look at trash, right, so like we can bring up plastic pollution problem. It's a real problem here, massive. We have a lot of it and it's very evident um, but there's also the most people who are coming in. There's a lot going on, but there's also the most um, uh actions being taken to prevent it on this island. This isn't necessarily just like an influx of tourism that's creating plastic pollution. It's, it's a lack of education in local yeah, it's.

Matt Jacob:

It's not so much the tourists, it's just that the locals don't know Exactly.

Cam Vaughne:

I mean, if you think about it from like a historical perspective, like before foreigners started coming in and before, you know, single-use plastics became so accessible in Indonesia from places like China and the West, every time they had a snack or something, it was wrapped in banana leaves, so it was always very just easy to you eat something and you throw it on the ground. Everything just gets thrown on the ground and it's habitual. And then all of a sudden you have Indomarts and Alphamarts popping up everywhere with all these single use plastics and everything's in these containers and those little water, those aqu aqua water. Things are the worst. That's what you see everywhere, because all the ceremonies, all the events, all the you know everything has just thousands and thousands of these little plastic waters.

Cam Vaughne:

And now you have people who are coming in and saying, okay, like we've seen this happen in the last, we've seen this happen in other places. How, how did we correct this? Well, we set up certain initiatives. We have people like our friend with Soongai Watch. They're doing amazing, amazing stuff here in Bali and in Java. It's either coming from A the rivers, right, so like people are tossing it in the rivers and it's coming down and their sungai watch is doing an amazing job of catching it and pulling it out before it gets to the ocean.

Cam Vaughne:

But then a lot of it's coming through the South Java Sea.

Cam Vaughne:

You know, you look at these areas in East Java that are just heavily polluted, like entire beaches that are just up to your waist in plastic right, and all of that, when we get big storm systems, it's pushing it straight to Bali, onto our coastline here, and so a lot of it's coming from over there. So it's not just educating in Bali, it's also educating in the most populated island in the world, java. That's where a lot of that's happening, and so, all of that being said, my point is that there's a lot of forward thinkers who are coming here and initiating real change, and it's happening at a very fast rate and people are trying to keep up. A lot of russian investment um, you can't really pin it on one place, but uh, you have people who come here and they're developing consciously, and then you have people who are coming here and not developing consciously, who are just, you know, throwing things up to make money, get a quick return and then don't care about how it's impacting I think we are.

Matt Jacob:

We are looking at the wrong people, we're looking at the lower levels of the locals and the expats basically foreign investors, locals and most of the time, like you said, live in perfect harmony. Right, the good people don't get talked about enough and they're the majority, right? Yeah, the problem, I see and it's not just Bali, it's Indonesia I really am talking about, because I totally agree with you on the facts that you explained but also in the West, these issues climate change, environment, the ocean, plastic, all of these kind of environmental issues are indicative across the world, especially in developing countries are indicative across the world, especially in developing countries. The problem, you know, it's very easy for me to distill it down to one single problem. Of course, it's extremely nuanced and complex, especially on an isolated island like this.

Matt Jacob:

The government have a huge role to play in this. If you leave it to the people, you're going to get good people and bad people and you're going to just kind of leave it and what's's going to happen? Obviously, yeah, the bad, the bad effects are probably going to outweigh the good ones, because they're more dangerous and they're more, more severe and more visceral. Right, we see them more, we, we experience them more. When we're drinking water, we we're drinking microplastics, because maybe someone is is ignorant, or someone hasn't been educated or someone's just stupid.

Matt Jacob:

The government, for me, don't do enough, and I just again I mean generally, I'm not talking about Indonesia I don't know enough about the roles the government play in these types of initiatives.

Matt Jacob:

But if we've got people coming in to the island like you quite rightly said, some incredible people forward things with technology, with initiatives, with experience how much of a role is the government playing in that to bring these people over? One thing that's always blown my mind and I live here because I fucking love it here but one thing that's always blown my mind is some backward thinking in not looking at other countries and looking at what they've done, well and badly. Bali especially has such a great opportunity, as well as some other Indonesian islands that have such a great opportunity, to learn from other countries that have done it well or done it badly, but they don't seem to. You take construction, for example. Build a house better. You should be able to just bring a foreigner in to teach a lot of people how to do simple construction where things don't fall apart after a year, and you know I'm not going to get into that, but I don't see that kind of outward thinking and learning being implemented by the government.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Matt Jacob:

It's such a fair point Because just to wrap up on that take your home country right and I want to talk about Europe and America and what's going on there right now.

Matt Jacob:

But the good players will always get drowned out by the governmental system and initiatives and nefarious policies and attitudes to what they want to do. They will always win right Because they're the ones with power. So unless we can impart change at the highest level or impart education and goodwill at the highest level, we're all almost not wasting our time at all, but we're always just going to get beaten in that respect?

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean there's yeah, like you said, there's higher players and they have different prerogatives. They have a different idea of what they're looking for. When they're looking to grow and evolve and change, they're doing it based off of investment for their overall GDP and how so it's they're looking at all there's this many people coming in and investing into our country, but not how are they coming in and investing in our country?

Cam Vaughne:

And that's where I mean, yeah, there needs to be checks checks and balances man, it's a hard thing to discuss about Indonesia, but I would like to, as best as possible, remain optimistic that with new changes in power and as things progress, we're going to see a little bit more conscious movement.

Matt Jacob:

But that's all we can hope for, you know, and it's not our place really, as people who are.

Cam Vaughne:

But one thing that we can do, one thing that is our place, and this is something that I've've even just sitting here talking about. This is racking the back of my brain. Um, I mean even just as creatives, people who are here shooting and telling stories and and showcasing. I mean because, let's be real, like news and and mainstream media in indonesia, it's not really a thing, you know, at least it's not, it's not, it's not popular. And so what people are seeing on tiktok? Yeah, it's, yeah, really a thing, you know, at least it's not, it's not, it's not popular. And so what?

Cam Vaughne:

people are seeing yeah, it's, yeah, exactly, that's the most popular here. It's, it's, it's the TikTok dances, um. But as people who are, who are flooding the internet with content, we have a real opportunity to be able to showcase again from an optimistic point of view, the people who are doing the right things. And the more that those things are being showcased to the general public, the more maybe minds can be swayed and changed to look at the positive outcome that people coming in is playing on the local community. I think the more publicized that gets, the more we'll initiate actual change here. You know, people will actually have changes of perspective and be able to uh see that that's the right way forward.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because I wanted to bring it back to um while I get off my political high horse. Bring it back to photography and and and creativity, I I guess.

Matt Jacob:

And how we, as inverted quotation marks, storytellers, right yeah us as people who have a tool, a tool and, hopefully, a skill that can expose a particular way of life. Right, I think it's important that I get a lot of people asking me I don't really know my style, I don't really know my voice, and the three photographers in this room probably have that. Those questions ask them all the time, absolutely, and it's difficult for people to understand what they want to do with the camera. There's one thing, just learning how to take photos. It's another thing what you know, figuring out how you want to, I guess, show who you are, or show, show your work, or exactly what voice you want to have. Or if you want to make any impactful change, then how do you go to do that? And if not, that's fine. What do you want to do with it?

Cam Vaughne:

Do you want to educate or you know, finding that avenue of what you want to do with a camera?

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I think it's really, really important, and sometimes I get challenged for just being a bit pretentious about it. And that's fine it and that's fine like it. It's not deep. We're, at the end of the day, we're just people with cameras like we're not curing cancer?

Matt Jacob:

right, yeah, but I think in this instance, like you know, I was thinking about this a few months ago and kind of, what can I do that I would enjoy doing as a photography project that might be able to shine a light on what I'm seeing in bali or in indonesia generally. We talk about sumba earlier and, yeah, it's really fascinating to see the impact of tourism. I've been a tourist my whole life, so it's like we can't say, oh, these fucking tourists, right, we're tourists. Yeah, we still are. Yeah, even though we we live here, as painful as it is.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah that word dirty word so, yeah, I mean, I guess what I'm asking is um, you know what's how you will you kind of use your, your tools and your skills to showcase stories like this? Is it? Is it important for you to be able to do that? Absolutely. What are your plans, if any?

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah Well, first off, just in regards to what you said, like the, when people are looking for their voice in photography or what it is that you know, if, if people are stuck at that crossroads, it's one that we've always, like you said, that we, that we've all experienced Um, I think one of the greatest questions you can ask yourself as well, what are you passionate about outside of photography? And too often it's very easy to to um, pick up a up a camera and gain inspiration from what you're seeing, from all of your favorite photographers and creators and influencers, your dream clients. You know working with tourism boards and beautiful destinations, and you know all of your favorite brands and hotel chains and this and that, like, that's all good and fun. But if you really, if you're asking yourself, where do I want to go with my photography and what's my style Like, where, what's my footprint that I want to put in this art? Um, what are you passionate about what?

Cam Vaughne:

What conversations are you having outside of photography? What are you talking about? Are you talking about this with your friends? Are you sitting at a table and talking to your friends about what's going on in the war in ukraine? Are you talking about what's going on politically around the world are you talking about, like any type of social controversy? Is there something that you feel passionately about? Shoot that you don't have to just shoot the same things as everyone else to get that's just. It might be a roadmap, a roadmap right, but if you really care that much and you're asking yourself that question, then go a little deeper. What is it that you're finding yourself talking to? Then go a little deeper. What is it that you're finding yourself talking to everybody about outside of picking up your camera and take that and figure out how to shoot it and express that to the world and chances are there's millions of people out there who feel the same way you do and there is an audience for absolutely everything.

Cam Vaughne:

If you are into ingrown toenails, there is an audience for ingrown toenails. I have an ingrown toenail, but yeah, you know, I mean that's I. I think that's a that would be a cool abstract series actually. Yeah, you know it could be right um, but yeah, and then uh, yeah, so it doesn't have to be.

Matt Jacob:

I mean, you're totally right and it doesn't have to be like these big existential topics, right? Social change, environmentalism, politics, war. It could just be your family. It could just be shooting new babies.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, absolutely, it could just be anything.

Matt Jacob:

You're absolutely right. It's a really good way of putting it to people. Everyone is interested in something, and it's a really good way of putting it to people. Everyone is interested in something, whether it's video games or Netflix or, you know, going out there and trying to save the world. Everyone has an interest in something, especially if you've already started picking up a camera. You know, you, you you're that kind of curious person. Yeah absolutely Totally agree.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, so it can be. I think those questions are the greatest segue into actually figuring out what you want to do with your art, you know. So, um, yeah, and, and going back to your question, then, uh, what I'm trying to do with that, I mean, it's constantly changing, it's constantly evolving, and that's what I love so much about photography it's something that the world is constantly changing around us. We're always going to have new interests. New things will catch our attention and you're always going to be stimulated with something new. For example, right now it might not seem like the most interesting thing ever, but I have been stuck in my head for so long now.

Cam Vaughne:

On Go-Jek drivers. It's like everywhere I go, you see Gojek drivers, you know. Explain to people what Gojek is. So it's like the Uber, uber eats, like type system of of Indonesia, right, so we have Gojek and we have Grab and you can use it for ride sharing. You can use it for, you know, cars, bikes, delivering food. They'll come and do your laundry. There used to be Go Massage, there's Go Fix. There's Go Mechanic, there's Go. Everything right, it's just Go. And these Go-Jek drivers are heroes in green, as we call them, because they wear their green jackets and helmets. They're everywhere, everywhere, and the life of a Go-Jek driver is one of the most interesting things to me. Right now I have dreams about it.

Cam Vaughne:

That sounds so lame, but it's but yeah, it's something that it's something that I've just been so interested in and seeing them on the side of a main street like Batu Belong here, which is a super crowded street in Canggu, on the side of a river, you'll have a couple Gojek drivers with their little like fishing poles, their makeshift fishing poles, fishing in the side of the river until they get a call. You know, or they'll be sleeping underneath a banyan tree, or they'll be reading newspapers, or or you know, there's all these different just you see Go-Jek drivers all over the place and it just it fascinates me, and it might not seem that interesting to everybody else, but it's something that's catching my attention on a daily basis, so I want to shoot that. You know. I want to show the life of Go-Jek. I feel like it hasn't been represented.

Matt Jacob:

And also a lot of them. You can't really see because they've got helmet most of the time when they're riding. Obviously they've got helmets on and like big green jackets. You're like who are these people?

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, and even stopping and having like little chit chat with. Like. If I see a bunch of Go-Jek drivers congregated on the side of the road fishing for dinner or whatever it is that they're doing, I'll stop and I'll chat with them. If I'm not in a rush to get somewhere else which nobody is, it's Bali. If you're in a rush, you're doing it wrong. But but I'll stop on the side of the road and I'll talk to them because it personifies these people who are heroes in green, who we're seeing every single day. These are people who have come from all over Indonesia to come here to try and have a better life or to seek opportunity or something. They all have stories. They come from interesting villages and backgrounds and belief systems and I mean mean, that's what's so great about indonesia. It's just so diverse and it it can be simplified into these guys in green. They're all. It's a perfect representation of these people from all over the country, and I don't know like these are.

Matt Jacob:

I nerd out on very weird little things like this, but so actually just the kindness that this, this area of the world, personifies in in the Gojek drivers in the local people. I, I, I ran out of petrol on my bike a couple of weeks ago. I gotcha and, um, yeah, it's just like. Not only could I order a Gojek to go and get petrol, a bottle of petrol for me, then bring it to me.

Matt Jacob:

When he brought it to me, I couldn't get the fuel cap open because the one of the, the latch underneath, was rusted always, so it was like I'm just gonna get you some wt40 and, you know, no extra charge or anything like that just the sheer kind of just always a nice reminder, like a absolutely the convenience of just I'll just run out of petrol on the side of the road, go get, just get some guy to get me some more because I didn't have any cash. That's's why I couldn't get mine. Yeah, I can get my own. I was walking trying to find anything, but yeah, it was just a nice little reminder that, like you said, everyone, everything is at their pace and that's just super kind. Yeah, so yeah, that'll be an interesting series, man.

Cam Vaughne:

It's. It's just fun things like that were talking before about. Like the, the construction everywhere you look. If you're coming to bali, everywhere you look now is construction right and even if you go to the furthest corners, like I was looking at um, I've been looking at land and opportunities up in the jataluy area and uh, it's, yeah, love it absolutely love it up there, but there's construction going on so much more than than like I mean it's just, it's wild, like without going down that road again, it um, there's.

Cam Vaughne:

There's construction going on so much more than like I mean it's just, it's wild, like without going down that road again.

Cam Vaughne:

There's more unique and interesting stories in these people that live in these tukats that are building all of these.

Cam Vaughne:

Like if you walk around just here in Canggu, right, all these construction sites go out to like Sese Chamagi, like the outer parts of Canggu no-transcript, and they live in these little makeshift temporary shanties that they put up while they finish the project and then they deconstruct them and move on to their next project. The life of these people sitting next the juxtaposition of building these luxury places and then their lives are so humble and so beautiful. They have their entire families that they've brought over from Java or wherever and they're living in there, happy as a thistle and just. They have amazing stories of what brought them here and why they're doing it and why they're working this way. I mean, the point being is, there's so many interesting stories within what you're seeing on the surface going on here, and I think that's just such a beautiful thing. It's one of the things that just makes me fall in love over and over again with Bali. No matter what it is, no matter what your perspective, you can always find the most interesting stories.

Matt Jacob:

What's one belief in that kind of realm as we move away from Bali? I want to hear about your evolution a little bit more in terms of photography, because you've been through a lot in the last few years and even even myself just always seems to be evolving the the type of photography and style, and George sitting here is also evolving his he's been doing for years and we're always looking for that kind of improvement, but something different. Maybe we can tell something a different way and maybe our just organic way of seeing things is going somewhere different. Tell me something that's changed for you in that respect um, maybe one belief in photography or one concept of how you used to photograph but has changed now, gosh, I mean, I think it it's.

Cam Vaughne:

It's, even with what I just said, like simplicity is king. Now, for me it's. I get obsessed with little, small nuances, and that's, that's what I'm, that's what I'm finding myself the most interested in, uh, and before I feel like it used to be this constant struggle of trying to get the shot. You know you go somewhere and you try and get everything epic, everything lines up perfectly, you know, like the mountain with the cloud and the, the, the um, the, the farmer in the rice field right in front of, like everything just had to be perfect and pristine.

Matt Jacob:

The influencer at the bottom of the waterfall.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, exactly, you know, the flowy dress coming into the lens. Like you know, art and and I I think my my perspective on going, when I'm going somewhere to shoot has gone from doing a bunch of research on specific locations of where I want to shoot and the shot that I want to get, and now it's just, I don't give a shit, wing it, yeah, I'm just going to wing it.

Cam Vaughne:

I'm going to show up a hundred percent and it makes it so much more. I feel so much more in the moment, um, where I'm not thinking about a particular shot. I just am interested in a particular place, um, or a really specific thing, and I'll go and I'll be open to that when it comes. But you're just shooting what you're seeing and I think that's to me, it's even in the content that I consume. It's just become street photography, it's all I consume. Now I'm obsessed. I have my newest cash pile newest, my newest uh cash pile just goes straight into books and I've just been buying photography books and and absolutely loving it Diving into it Just bought.

Matt Jacob:

I just bought Alan Charlotte. You do know Alan Charlotte. He's a UK street photographer I, I can't remember, it's not even arrived yet, but it's his latest one that looked pretty, pretty epic. Yeah, um, and I'm not into really street photography at all, but he's, he's. I like his personality. Yeah right, I don't know if you watched him on personality comes out through his art.

Cam Vaughne:

He does yeah yeah I love it with people like um I mean, even now he's sitting in the room, I'm not gonna toot his whistle too much here, but but, uh, um, I mean, george style has has changed, changed so much and it's been an absolute pleasure to, to, to be along for that journey, cause we both got really interested in in in cultural photography around the same time. I think like correct me if I'm wrong, but that's I mean during COVID. We just we got um, we became obsessed with it and I've watched how both of us have kind of gone into our own respective styles of shooting it. But the way that Jord captures moments and what he's posting on Instagram now, with the white borders going away from the four by five curse, it's inspiring and I love to see it.

Cam Vaughne:

Other photographers who I follow, who I've it's completely leaps and bounds different from what I used to follow and consume on social media. People like do you know Billy Dee? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out to Billy Dee, amazing photographer, just like you said before, like his, his work, his personality comes out through his work and it's just it's. It's amazing. I love it. It's. You really feel like you're along for a journey instead of reading these captions about. You know, oh, I'm going to this place and blah, blah, blah and my life is so great.

Matt Jacob:

It's just very simple, you don't even need a caption. I think we're through the influence of culture, aren't we? And touch wood, yeah. And you know interesting, you talked about Instagram and how you still consume a lot of your. I mean, most photographers these days, including myself, still consume our, I guess, inspiration and other people's work through social media and there's always kind of this balance isn't there and social media kind of can influence us too much. Maybe, where we go down the route of doing a specific style because we feel like we want to be like someone that we see is doing well on Instagram, let's say, or we actually want to grow ourselves on Instagram because we feel like that's a money-making tool, or we want the validation and we want to give ourselves a tap on the back through the tool of likes and follows, right yeah.

Matt Jacob:

Validation. How much does that play into your toolkit now?

Cam Vaughne:

oh, not at all. You care less. Um. Uh, I think it depends on what you want from it. You know, um, if you are seeking validation through likes and and you know that's fire comments then then yeah bro, bro, drooling emoji.

Cam Vaughne:

Um, yeah, you know, I mean, if, if that's where you're finding your fulfillment, good for you. You know I'm I'm not here to knock it at all, but uh, um, I, I let's knock it a little bit, all right, let's knock it a little bit, all right. Yeah, but for me I don't care. I rarely post as it is and that's not a flex. I'm not saying that to be pretentious in any way, that's actually just an inhibition. I should be posting more, I should be sharing my work. And yeah, I mean, I don't even know what you asked. Now, my mind's just gone down.

Matt Jacob:

I mean, we've got, I guess, three relatively established photographers in the room and I'm trying to like put myself in beginner shoes again. In today's world as a photographer, so much competition, you know, a billion photos uploaded to one platform every day, let alone the other platforms that we all need to pay attention to, because we don't put eggs in one basket. And then how do you can't even post still images and grow on platforms, cause you've got to do videos. And then do I even want to grow? Is it going to take up too much time? Am I able to do it full time? Where do I go? What website do I build? What style do I want?

Matt Jacob:

You know, it's like as a beginner photographer these days and we've all been there right it can be overwhelming. So when social media gets thrown into it, I'm just trying to like where should we? How much attention should one pay it as a maybe someone hobbyist, who's okay, I'd like. I'm pretty good at photography, I kind of know what I'm doing. I have the old client maybe in my spare time. How much attention should I be paying to these platforms?

Cam Vaughne:

yeah, um, yeah, I guess it. Like I said before, uh, I think it just depends on what, on what it is you're trying to do, right, you know if, if there are, if you do have these high hopes for these clients and this is how you get that. I I mean Instagram's a great tool. Social media is a great tool.

Cam Vaughne:

It gets your work out there. But I would say, just like any other douchebag with a mic, you know quality over quantity and don't just conform, you know, to what you think is working for the algorithm. If you want to grow, then yes, there will. You will have opportunities that come out of growth. I've watched it with all of my friends, you know, and I did take a different approach. I don't beat myself up over it, but it's. Could I have had more opportunities, different opportunities, had I put more time into that? Yeah, but I the the, the things that I've posted and the thing and the attention that it's gotten from the people who I wanted it to get the attention from. That's all that really matters. You know, um, I I get a whole lot more satisfaction out of one particular follow than I do from 10 000 follows yeah you know, I don't necessarily I've gotten out not to put myself above this by any means at all.

Cam Vaughne:

Like I said, I've dropped the ball when it comes to that. You know, approach, but um, uh, yeah, I, just I, I I cared way more about progressing in the way that I want to progress and getting the attention from the people who want to, who have a general interest in the things that I'm showcasing. It's my art at the end of the day, you know, and and if it's, if it's my art, then I don't care if you don't like it. You know, I don't need to make a 15 second reel with a color grade change and the right song and this and that just to get the, just to get likes and attention. And you know, not, man, clients, I hope that the clients that I want to work with don't give a shit about that either. You know, know, they'll look at the work, they'll look at the portfolio, they'll look at um, me as a person.

Matt Jacob:

So how do you grow, how do you make money essentially from your work without a social media? I mean, you do have a social media, but I'm saying hypothetically, if you don't really kind of put time into social media, what's the best approach and avenues to take to kind of get work essentially?

Cam Vaughne:

yeah, I think I mean it's different for everybody, for for me, um, I've been very fortunate, very fortunate where, kind of coming up in this, this instagram photographer age, uh, um, I had a lot, of, a lot of friends who were doing amazing things and and I built a great community of people and, um, I was, I was, I mean, I had hands extended to me with opportunities and, um, people who knew me and knew my work and knew what I could do, who, who extended a hand and an opportunity to me? Um, and then from there, it's like you meet people on set for one project and then they like you, they like what you produce, and they give you another opportunity and then you take that and you meet more people and then they have a project going on in this country at this time and you get another opportunity and it piggybacks. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a constant, you know. But, that being said, there is a very big negative to that and that approach.

Cam Vaughne:

Whereas if I stop working like, for example, in this past period that I went through where I wasn't my best, I cut off from everyone and I stopped communicating with people and I shelled in a bit, stopped communicating with people and I shelled in a bit and when that happened, I lost a lot of opportunities. I lost a lot of clients, because clients will then go and find the next person. If you're not responding, life moves on, so they'll go to the next person and then, once you don't find yourself on project sets anymore, it's harder to network in the way that I've always networked and the way that I've gotten opportunities. So, yeah, I'm, definitely I'm. I'm able to sit here and admittedly say like my it. I wouldn't suggest to people to go about it the way that I've gone about it. Um, but there are different ways of finding success and outcomes.

Matt Jacob:

So if you were starting today, how would you do things differently?

Cam Vaughne:

Oh, man nightmare? I wouldn't. No, I'm just kidding.

Matt Jacob:

Choose a different career. I don't know man.

Cam Vaughne:

Go Jack, this is pretty much guaranteed and green is pretty much guaranteed. Um, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I really think one. If I was depending on who I'm talking to, I guess you know, and, and what, what they're telling me they want to do I would say what we were talking about before think about what it is that you really want to shoot, what, what do you have, or not, what you really want to shoot, what are you passionate about? What are you interested in? Go shoot that and see what other people who maybe and you don't even have to look at what other people are doing actually, um, just shoot what it is that's on your heart and what you're passionate about, and network and meet people who are doing similar maybe, uh, and let opportunities you know. Don't, don't pass up opportunities. I guess, yeah, and that's a hard question because that's a nightmare to start over. I just did it.

Matt Jacob:

That's why the question is quite quite salient, I guess, because you've you've kind of done it twice. Yeah, Really yeah.

Cam Vaughne:

Um, done it a few times, we'll throw.

Matt Jacob:

COVID in there and everyone's had to reinvent themselves.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, and I and that's exactly what I did during COVID found something that I wanted to do in my own boredom and went and found things that I wanted to shoot and I wanted to capture and and man, opportunities came at that time. There was nobody else really doing that here, so I was getting opportunities to become I didn't even know a cultural photographer was a thing. Like I mean, back then when we're all just posting, you know the same old stupid stuff everybody was posting, not stupid stuff. I shouldn't be so harsh. Whatever. I started posting these things and people were reaching out to me and I was like whoa, I didn't even know this was a.

Cam Vaughne:

I've had opportunities with hotel groups and tourism boards and NGOs. I've worked. Majority of my work over the last five years has been with humanitarian projects and NGOs and people who wanted to hire somebody to do exactly what I wanted to do create impact-driven content and have my perspective actually I don't know make a little bit of a difference, if it can, and that all just came from kind of staying at least in my own mind, staying true to what I wanted to do and not not being swayed by popularity.

Matt Jacob:

Love it, Staying true to what you do. What does the future look like? Do you care about leaving a body of work, or you know where do you even go to? What are you worried about? What are you looking forward to?

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, it certainly creeps in. You know, those thoughts creep in. What am I doing?

Matt Jacob:

Yep Every day.

Cam Vaughne:

What is the? What is the accumulation of my work and my life? Am I wasting time or am I doing something that's going to have a positive impact? And, uh, I mean that's it. I want to keep doing things that have a positive impact and I'll keep. I'll make sure that I'm shooting the things that are interesting to me. Um, I'm interacting with people who are interesting to me. Um, I'm giving back to the things that I'm passionate about and that pull at my heartstrings, and the more I do that, I mean, I'm a firm believer in what you, you, you get, what you put out, you know, and so, um, not with the intention of receiving, but, uh, I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to keep living the way I'm living and doing what I'm doing and being, hopefully, a positive light and hopefully my work reaches the right people to have the opportunities that my work is supposed to reach.

Matt Jacob:

Do you think the opportunities are still? Is still as present as ever? Absolutely.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, absolutely, and I mean there's all of the arguments with, like man, I know nothing about it. I use AI and I guess my editing software is a little bit here and there to denoise or whatever, but I know there's a lot of conversation about where that's going and how it's affecting the industry, but I don't pay much mind to it, it doesn't, I'm not interested in it and I'm still finding I mean I'm still putting food on my table, I'm still progressing and I'm actually doing a bit better than I ever have, which is good. I've diversified my interests and what I'm putting my time into as far as business, into as far as business, um, putting a lot of time into the relationships that that you know fuel me and uh, yeah, I mean I, I can only hope that it will I have a lasting impact. You know that my work will have a lasting impact.

Cam Vaughne:

But speaking of that like one thing that I am getting more into is just doing series. I want to do print series. I want to be doing, you know, things that have a physical. You know you can put your hands on and see books, and you know I'm obsessed with books right now. So, and prints, I'm buying prints for my house and just I love it.

Matt Jacob:

I love prints. Yeah, I've always been a print guy.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, me too.

Matt Jacob:

Hopefully it's coming back. If you want to exhibit your prints here, you're more than welcome to yeah, I appreciate it, man. You'll probably get there before Josiah does anyway.

Cam Vaughne:

He's got to get his prints out of my bathroom first. They're big as well. Yeah, they are. I'm just staring at Chelsea underwater every time I'm taking a dump.

Matt Jacob:

Could be worse, that's true, I'm going to finish with a final question and I want to. You know, the kind of arc of all these questions really is kind of what you've learned over the last few years. But even if you want to go back further, I'm interested to hear about any misconceptions that you had about photography and being a photographer in the world and how that might have changed. Any misconceptions that you had before that have been expunged or have changed since, since then.

Cam Vaughne:

Wow, good question. Misconceptions? I don't know. I think just one thing that I've learned is God this is going to sound so cliche. Whatever I mean, anything's possible, and if you're interested in something, odds are other people will be too. So being being scared about how your work is going to be received and you know all these opportunities aren't going to come or it's too saturated, or I got into this too later. I took a break, so now I can't get back into it, or I haven't posted on instagram in three months, so I need to write some detailed caption about what I've been doing and clarify that I'm back.

Matt Jacob:

You know all of these?

Cam Vaughne:

no one gives a shit. It's just not necessary. No one gives a shit, we don't need to talk about it. No one's noticed that you're gone. It's, it's, it's not. It's, it's not a big deal. Um, so yeah, I think those are the only the only real misconceptions that I've had, maybe, like where I've thought that people care. It's that sad.

Matt Jacob:

But you're true, like in the externalities. You're very correct with that. You know. No, certainly in the social media world, no one truly cares, and those that do are your loyal fans. And, like you said earlier, which I 100% believe, believe in I've kind of learned the hard way as well.

Matt Jacob:

There's an audience for everyone, so don't worry too much about you know, making people happy and appealing to the most amount of people that you can. Obviously, if you can improve and grow your audience, fantastic, but as long as that audience is the right audience, there's an audience for everyone, no matter how you know, how well you take photos of toenails or whatever you're taking photos of, um. So, yeah, I think that's a really great lesson to learn and a great lesson to end with. Thanks so much for coming back, man and being, absolutely being, the og, yeah, the forecast and um number one.

Matt Jacob:

Hopefully we won't be another two years, but yeah, yeah well, I'll be ready for it. We'll be following your evolution in the meantime. Yeah, thanks for your time, man, it's always great to have you.

Cam Vaughne:

Yeah, absolutely See you soon.

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