The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
From Chronic Pain to Creative Power: Simon Baxter, EO88
"There's more to happiness than just a great photograph."
What if the most powerful photo you take has nothing to do with photography—and everything to do with healing?
In this week’s episode, I sit down with Simon Baxter, a woodland photographer whose work is as much about emotional connection and personal transformation as it is about trees and light. Based in North Yorkshire, England, Simon is celebrated for his meditative, deeply personal approach to nature photography and his YouTube channel, where he shares honest insights on solitude, creativity, and the quiet rhythms of the forest. In addition to all of this he is also the author of his photographic book 'Gathering Time'.
What we discussed:
- How a "secret ingredient" of emotional connection transformed Simon's photography
- Simon's journey from website developer to woodland photographer
- The emotional weight of solitude—and why it’s his creative fuel
- The profound healing effect and therapeutic benefits of forest environments
- Why focusing on the creative process rather than just the final photograph brings greater fulfillment and better results
- The tension between sharing sacred places and protecting them
- The biggest misconceptions about success and validation in photography
- How Simon balances art, business, and staying true to his creative process
- Lessons from the forest: on slowing down, staying curious, and seeing without prejudice
- Why prints matter more than Instagram likes—and how to know if a photo is truly good
- Building community with the 617 Club and why connection matters
Find Simon's work on his channels:
Website: www.baxter.photos
Instagram: @baxter.photos
You Tube: @SimonBaxterPhotography
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Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time. I'm your host, matt Jacob. Thank you so much for joining me in today's conversation. And today I'm speaking with Simon Baxter, a woodland photographer from North Yorkshire in England, whose intimate connection with nature and solitude has made him one of the most respected voices in the outdoor photography community, known for his deeply personal approach to capturing quiet, overlooked corners of the natural world. Simon's work is a meditation on patience, presence and emotional resonance. In this episode we talked about how chronic illness shaped his path into woodland photography, how solitude fuels creativity and what it means to build a relationship with a single place. Over years, we explore the ethical tension of sharing sacred spaces, the emotional power of stillness and whether art can truly shift how people engage with nature. It's really a grounded and reflective conversation, one that might just inspire you to slow down, go for a walk, look a little closer at the beauty hiding in plain sight. So now I bring you Simon Baxter.
Matt Jacob :Simon Baxter, welcome to the Moo Podcast. Thank you for having me. Glad to be here. Yeah, it's really great to have you here. Of course, I'm very excited to jump into your unique and beautiful photography and work, as well as all of the stories behind it and your philosophies and your where's and how's behind your process and output. But I wanted to go through the conversation as chronologically as possible, as best we can in terms of your pedigree and your history, and all the way up to present day. But actually, to start, I wanted to go a little bit deeper into something that might be relevant to your secret ingredient certainly the philosophy or the unique philosophy that you take through photography. So if you did have a secret ingredient that made you be able to do what you do, even through all the tough times and all the good times as well, what do you think that would be necessarily?
Simon Baxter:well, what do you think that would be necessarily Secret ingredient? Wow, when I think back to pivotal moments in my photography, when you have that bit of epiphany where there's something that's always been there but there becomes a moment when you actually become consciously aware of it. And I think one of the most important moments for me, which I do see as a secret ingredient, because it's something that you can't teach people, it's something very difficult to articulate and that's an emotional connection to what you photograph. And I remember the specific moment when this happened and you kind of know that you become emotionally charged when you're photographing something that you love and there is a genuine connection there. But trying to understand it or recognize how it influences your photography is really quite difficult.
Simon Baxter:But there was a moment when I was out one day and I was sort of struggling with sort of back issues which was resulting in mental health issues. I was photographing a particular tree and it suddenly hit me like oh my god, I've just realized that I'm photographing things which feel like a reflection of how I'm feeling. You know somber scenes, moody trees, struggling trees, you know trees reaching out into open space, just looking for something. And when I realized that, you know, I wasn't just photographing nice looking trees. There was something you know more. You know deep, deeper. Here there's deeper connection. I just I was just overcome with emotion, um, which I never expected. You know, my partner would say that I'm not an emotional person, but I know, I know that I very much am in a lot of ways and, yeah, that was really quite a profound moment and that's something that I've run with since is the importance of being emotionally connected with the things that you love to photograph.
Matt Jacob :So where has that emotional connection come from? You mentioned a little bit there about injuries and being in chronic pain. Tell us a little bit about that backstory.
Simon Baxter:Yeah, so prior to becoming a woodland photographer, I was a website developer. So I spent a lot of time sat at a desk, and when I was a website developer, my hobbies were very much fueled by adrenaline. So I was a keen mountain biker, you know snowboarding, hiking, that kind of thing, you know kayaking and all sorts of stuff. But then I never had any particular warning signs that my back was struggling and I just hit a tipping point and it just went kind of pop. Uh, one day um ended up with a ruptured disc, ended up with all sorts of weird, um nerve pains, you know, terrible kind of joint and muscular pain, and it sort of sent me into a bit of a downward spiral really, because it was that it was the early stages that they were most difficult, because you're thinking, oh, you know it's, it's been two weeks that I've not ridden my bike, uh, whereas now it's been 13 years and as time goes on you know that it becomes easier and you become more accepting of of pain, um, but I spent the first kind of couple of years really struggling with it, um, and then my partner recognized that I needed something, I needed some help, and we ended up getting a dog, which became a surprise because my partner is allergic to, to most dogs. But she found out that her friend was having a. Yeah, she worked. My friend was having a one-off litter of labradoodles and she said I've heard the hypoallergenic. So you know, let's go and have a look and I'll see how we we get on. Um. So, yeah, then we got meg and she became a positive distraction because I was at home alone every day, you know, trying to make websites, but business was suffering because I couldn't spend the time at desks. She became a positive distraction. I started to take meg out, um, on.
Simon Baxter:What is very odd, our lives are in tandem, because if you've got a puppy you have to kind of slowly, slowly, introduce them to the world. You know, you have a 15 minute walk and then over a period of months you build it up to 20 minutes, 30 minutes and so on, and I was kind of going at the same pace as meg. It's like, oh well, I've walked 15 minutes and that's enough for me, um. And then, once you got to a year old, I was ready to walk further, um, and then we started to.
Simon Baxter:I started to photograph meg in the woods. Then I would photograph her in the open landscape, then I would turn my photograph. Her in the open landscape, then I would turn my camera to only the open landscape. And then I realized that from a pain perspective it just wasn't enough, because if I was stood there waiting for the golden light to arrive, I'd be stood there thinking about pain. So I decided to kind of get back into the woods, which is kind of where my roots are really, you know, as a mountain biker, but I just approached it at a much slower pace and then I was wandering around in the woods one day in an unfamiliar woodland, and felt completely different. There's something very special about that environment and I realized after an hour of walking around um, I hadn't thought of pain in that past hour, which was the first time for for an hour in in three years, and I thought that's something special. You know, I need to explore that and repeat it as often as I possibly can.
Matt Jacob :And that's where I fell in love with woodland photography wow, um distraction then, or more therapy, or somewhere in the middle yeah, well, if you try to distract yourself, it doesn't work, does it?
Simon Baxter:um, whereas this felt like a genuine distraction, and but I mean distraction doesn't really do it justice. It's because you become immersed in your surroundings. So, yeah, so the therapeutic benefits of being immersed in nature, I mean the well-documented. Now in Japan they have Shinrin-yoku, you know, forest bathing, which wasn't something that I was aware of at the time. It's just something I've been introduced to since, having already benefited from that green prescription, if you like. And yeah, I mean it's like a drug, isn't it? You realize it's doing you good and every time you go out, you feel that little bit better and you get this cumulative effect of spending, spending time in nature with, you know, your best friend. And then photography just became a celebration of that, I guess green prescription I love that, that's very, very, very cool.
Matt Jacob :Yeah, have a dose of of of greenery, that'll do you some good, and I think maybe yeah, maybe not distraction, but maybe like a flow state as well add in photography as well as the green prescription, and then you've got a recipe for something extremely powerful and and healing.
Simon Baxter:Essentially, yeah exactly because you know it's, it's there's a constant shift in stimulus in the woods.
Simon Baxter:You know there's nowhere I can't think of anywhere else that's as complex and changes as much with the seasons as being in the woods. You get constant changes in color, texture, light, smells, wildlife. You know it all changes with the seasons and it changes with every single visit and that's that's the thing you know you've just there's so much to take in that it's like the pain gate. You know if your arm's hurting but then somebody hits you on the thumb with a hammer, your arm no longer hurts, you're just thinking about your thumb and it's a bit like that. There's no room for for anything else because you're so consumed with trying to make sense of everything that's going on around you so that the creative process of photography it's encouraged you to to slow down and be observant and to be to observe the woods and take it all in in a way that you know visually makes sense and becomes cohesive. You know it takes, it takes time and it takes a lot of attention, and you can maybe hear Meg barking in the background right now.
Matt Jacob :Go on, Meg, let it all out. Yeah, I know that sound. We have four dogs at home and, um, yeah, I definitely have a favorite and she's the quietest one. So it says a lot about the other three. And so is that creative process? Is that something? Is that where you really derive the happiness? I saw a quote of yours and I wrote it down here there's much more to happiness in photography than just a great photograph. So can you can explain that a little bit and and dissect that for us?
Simon Baxter:yeah, I guess that's my second secret ingredient is, um is this there's so much pressure these days, isn't there to to produce, you know, to create content, to put a photograph out there onto social media, and I'm sure you've had lots of guests that have, you know, talked about the pressures, pressures of social media. We're all completely aware of it. But even though we're aware of the problems of that pressure, I think most people still give into that and because you know they've got a business to run the fields, if they have to feed the algorithms, um, but that's something that I've genuinely managed quite well. I think you know I do enough to sustain a business, um, but I definitely don't play to the algorithms. I don't put stuff out there for the sake of, you know, publishing a photograph, and the reason for that is is because I just don't put pressure on me to produce. You know, you, you have this expected output, don't we? Which is a photograph.
Simon Baxter:But the creative process is about so much more than the end result, and that's where I like to focus on, because I know, if I get that right, if I get the process right, the photographs will come when they're good and ready, um, but if I'm constantly putting pressure on myself to go out and actually make images. It doesn't allow me any kind of breathing room. It doesn't allow me the space to go out and actually try something new, to actually just enjoy the woods for what it is and everything that it has to offer. And I need that space. I need it to feel like a hobby, because as soon as I'm out there every day because I feel as if I have to make a video, then it becomes very much a business.
Simon Baxter:But I think I like to think that the the one of the best qualities about, you know, producing a photograph is that it has a piece of view in it. It's, it's got some soul, it's something very personal. It's not just serving a purpose for, for a business, um, and I think you know I, for it to have soul, I have to, I have to feel it, and I have business, um, and I think you know I, for it to have soul, I have to, I have to feel it and I have to understand the place and I have to feel good about being there. Um, and that's only going to happen if I'm going out and actually just enjoying it without a camera as well, um, and that's always the best, but that's always the best possible place to be creative. So, yeah, I mean, I think hand in hand in that actually is actually depriving yourself of the things that you love sometimes.
Simon Baxter:So I've not been out with my camera for a good few weeks now because I've been busy with so many other things at home. But that's a good thing, that's healthy, because it means that when I get back into the woods it's like, oh, I'm so happy to be back. And then that rush of positivity and relief even if it doesn't turn into a photograph on that particular day, the chances are on that on that visit I'm going to be seeing things differently, I'm going to be having a fresh, positive outlook. Um, and that's the bit that I value the most, because I know that the photographs will come and it's having that. I think you need the experience to have confidence in the process, trust in the process and be completely happy if you don't make a photograph.
Matt Jacob :But it takes experience to have the confidence to know that they'll come when they're good and ready yeah, that's a really important thing to get across, especially to people who are just starting in the photography space.
Matt Jacob :I think there's so much pressure to. I was speaking with a relative beginner earlier today and and they were just so caught up in every other photographer on instagram basically, and they were getting completely distracted on style than genre and um technique and completely forgetting about really where the voice comes from and how to, I guess, impart meaning in your work and if you know if that's really important to them, if that's what it kind of has to be if you want to take photography seriously. So tell me a little bit about you. Know, you touched upon why the woods mean woodland and that environment means so much to you. But really, where did this all come from? But, more importantly, how do you find those areas and those locations and a specific tree or specific set of trees and woods that actually mean something to you, mean something enough to get your camera and take a photo?
Simon Baxter:yeah, it's. It's interesting, isn't it? Because what the places actually mean something to me photographically, it's shifted and it's evolved with with time and I can definitely see that now, and it's another one of these things which you don't, you don't realize it until you do, and then when you do, it just completely transforms the way that you move, you move forward. So obviously it all started out, and the start of it obviously was was going out with Megan and finding the therapeutic power and restorative power of the woods and that's what got me kind of addicted to it. But then, with time, the things that have influenced is actually my direction, is actually understanding what you're photographing and, um, whether that be you know some ecological knowledge of what you're photographing, knowledge, knowledge of all the different species of trees, a little bit about what's growing in the understory, what happens with particular trees through the seasons, and then that all helps with the connection, because it's very difficult to be emotionally connected with something if you don't understand it. Understanding and knowledge has to come first and then, as a result of that, knowledge and understanding and knowledge has to come first and then, as a result of that knowledge and understanding, you start to, you start to care. That whole process got me to, you know, in love with oak trees, um, because they're so ecologically significant, um, you know, one of our most valuable trees in the uk, um, so then that kind of changed my view of things. It's not just a tree which looks fantastic, there's a whole lot of value in this and it's something that should be revered.
Simon Baxter:Um, but then, as time's gone on, I've started to find locations which several years ago, I wouldn't have tried to photograph because they were just too difficult. But, going back to what I was saying before, I photograph them now precisely because they're difficult, they're incredibly complex. It's a challenge to make sense of them, but I love being there. So, yes, it's going to take me longer to make good images, but the fact is is that, whether I'm making a photograph or not, so long as I love being there, then that's the most important thing. But these locations that I'm photographing, you know know, some of them are private woodlands. A lot of them, um, you know, have open access, and it's literally just been a case of I look on some satellite images, I look in ordnance survey maps, um, I kind of figure out where something might be, um, with no prior knowledge as to, you know, has any other photographer been there? And you know if, if I can't find any photographic evidence of a woodland, then that's. That's exciting to me, because I want to find places where nobody else is going, you know, ideally, where you don't even get people walking through, um, because then it just feels like your own little sanctuary, and that's that's a bit of a privilege, to be honest, if you can find that. And I've been fortunate enough to find places which are privately owned and are being given allowed access to to go and photograph them as a place. But yeah, it's just a case of going for a walk after looking on mapping software and see what I find. Sometimes you don't find anything, um, and other times you're just blown away with what's being tucked away in a quiet corner of the north york malls, and and then it's some way you could get years and years worth of worth of work, um.
Simon Baxter:Interestingly, though, I get lots of people asking me for you know where I've taken a particular photograph, and they'll say to me I don't have time. You know, I work full time, I've got a family. I do not have time to go and scout out locations like you do. I want to be told where places are, and I just have very, very strong beliefs on that and I think, well, what you're actually saying is you want to be productive when you go out, you want to make images. You do have time. If you've got time to go to the camera, you've got time to go and scout you just might, might not result on anything that particular day.
Simon Baxter:And it comes back to the process, um, and I think, if you, if I think of what gives me the most satisfaction from start to finish. You know, I like this common thread of I've found a location, I found compositions and the location, I've worked it, I've tuned into the rhythms of that place, I've got to know it, I've tried day in, day out over the course of years, and then, ultimately, I get an image which represents that place and says everything that I wanted, you know, which speaks for that location and the trees that live there, and I've printed it and it's on the wall. And if I don't have one of those things, then that's okay. But one of the most important things is that it's somewhere that I found and it feels as if not that it belongs to me, but that I belong to the woods, if that makes sense.
Matt Jacob :Yeah, it sounds there's a lot going on there and I really resonate with your, I guess, disagreement with those sentiments which are prevalent in most kind of hobbyists when it comes to photography, certainly those that are on social media and they think they just want to go out and get a nice shot come home Um, they're just kind of missing the point and, first of all, they get a shot that looks like everyone else's.
Matt Jacob :Second of all, it just just means nothing. It's just a way for you to kind of either show off or maybe get some likes, or I don't know. It seems a bit vacuous, but you know, people say I'm pretentious because I say things like that. But I don't know, I think there's more to you know, there's going to be my kind of. The final thing I was going to add on top of that, or ask you on top of that, was, once you found this location and you've, you know it feels good to you aesthetically, then how do you kind of resonate with that specific location internally and kind of think, okay, this feels good to me, this feels like something I can, you know, get something out of metaphorically or in a meaningful sense?
Simon Baxter:Yeah, I mean just to touch briefly on what you said about you know, being accused of being pretentious. Um, with that viewpoint, I think what it is is that what you've, you've experienced, what you feel is one of those magic ingredients, um and when and it's not that you you're preaching that, it's that actually. No, this, this is one of the most viable parts of the experience and that's what you're trying to share with people. You know, it's not pretentious at all and, if anything, we're saying to people no, no, this is brilliant, you need to go out and experience this yourself. You know, trust me on this. You know there's nothing better.
Matt Jacob :It's difficult to translate that, though, isn't it Until you've actually experienced it? I tell people all the time. You know, if I think back in my history of photography and all of my favorite images, the favorite part is not the image. It's helped me get that image that I've spent time with. At the same time as getting that image, the image is always like the final five percent, yeah it's difficult to make people understand that, right?
Matt Jacob :yes, because it's such a visual medium, they see that as the the one and only thing that matters exactly, yeah, exactly, and which kind of leads into.
Simon Baxter:You know the, the. Your other question about you know how you find the meaning in a place and you know what it is that inspires that connection. And for me I don't go in and think. You know, my primary objective isn't let's go in and see if this has photographic potential. You know, usually you can get a sense of that straight away anyway. But it's really how do I feel when I walk into this place? Because if I walk in and there's obviously some photographs there, but I just feel as if it's lacking something, because you know you could go to, there's lots of woodlands, which are famous, full of wonderful trees, you know lots of photographic opportunities. But if I go in and there's lots of people around and you know there's people walking dogs, there's other photographers, there's all sorts of activity happening, I'm not interested. Not interested in the slightest. I'll I'll, I'll just walk. Even if I can get great photographs there, I don't care, because I'm the same yeah, it's just not the environment that you know, it's just part.
Simon Baxter:Part of being in the woods is that it can feel, as it, like a completely different realm. You know it's like you get the border of the woodland and that's the threshold. You know you're stepping from one environment into another and everything changes. Life is different, wildlife is different. Like I was saying before, everything smells different and to fully appreciate that, um, I need, I need solitude, um, because other things, otherwise just things, become a distraction. The only things that I want to hear is the babble of the stream and you know the birds sing and that kind of thing. That's all part of the immersive experience.
Simon Baxter:I I spent about six months of last year feeling quite um, unwell, um, and I had to go for you know, some tests and things, and I've gone for a test at the hospital and felt absolutely awful afterwards. But then two days after that I thought, right, I can't possibly sit around at home just waiting to feel better. So the first thing that I did was right, I need to find somewhere new, I need that kind of rush of finding a new woodland. So I put my hiking boots on camera over my shoulder, traveling very light, went for a hike, went to a woodland which I actually visited years ago and never really got to explore it properly because it was too overgrown and I was out walking with Adele, so it wasn't an ideal opportunity to dig a bit deeper. And I said to myself at the time I need to go.
Matt Jacob :Adele is sorry.
Simon Baxter:Sorry my partner, adele, yeah, um, and I promised myself that I would go back and I never did. But this seemed like the ideal opportunity years later to revisit and I walked in and I was just blown away. Um, it was a tiny location brimming with potential, um, but I think it's just, it was just one of those other moments. It just hit me because I was feeling bad physically and I went in. I was like, oh, my god, I can't believe that I haven't come back here all these years. But then also, that doesn't matter, because I'm here now and I was, I was, I saw so much potential there. I was just sort of overcome with emotion again.
Simon Baxter:You know, I was kind of I almost cried because, like this is really, it's tiny, uh, oh, look, there's a deer wandering through and I've got all these wonderful oak trees and everything's gnarly, and it's just that feeling of discovery. It's something else and it, you know, and it plays into that sense of it kind of inspires a sense of childlike imagination. And you know when, everything's new, you know if you're, you know if you're a toddler introduced to the world, everything's fascinating. You look at things without prejudice. You know, one mundane thing is just as exciting as you know something else you know. And if you introduce a kid to nature for the very first time and you know you show them a worm, then everything's fantastic. It's like, oh my god, what's that thing wriggling around? And it's kind of like that because and that's that's the view that I think that really helps with woodland photography is looking at things without prejudice.
Simon Baxter:And this is the issue with social media is that they're presented with, you're bombarded with images which have a particular style, have a particular species of tree, are representative of you know a particular place in, you know your country, um. So people end up going looking for that with this kind of blinkered view of what woodland photography is, whereas I think I benefit from going and say, well, that little thing there is just as important as that big fancy tree there. Everything has a part to play. So you've kind of got to shine a light on everything. And then the difficult thing is bringing all those elements together in something which you know makes a nice composition. But that's where the kind of fun part is, I guess.
Matt Jacob :Yeah, I love the way most of that you didn't even talk about photography. It was more about discovery, the experience. That it was just. You know people, people don't talk about that enough, but a lot of people are too focused on their gear right and the settings, and which is obviously important. But you know, really, I think to step up to the next level and to actually add what this is all about is really a form of self-expression and self-fulfillment. It's getting that just the selfish kind of buzz from it right, finding how to get that buzz, and most of the time it doesn't come from setting your ISO or having a specific aperture speed or having a specific lens right. It comes from the experience and and finding out these, really noticing and observing those, those small details, and then figuring out ways to piece them together.
Simon Baxter:So, yeah, I love yeah, I mean, I was, I was, I was very fortunate, you know, when you look back and what felt like an unfortunate set of circumstances and didn't feel good at the time actually did me the world of good.
Matt Jacob :Because, tell me, a little bit more about that, especially in the mental health side. Um, because you know they're so related. You know the, the physical, and the, the mindful, so you know, interconnected with each other. I'm sure when you, you had such a chronic illness and chronic condition that you can't help but spiral into some kind of negative mood and whatever went on, which maybe you will or won't tell us about, but I'm interested to A know a little bit more about that if possible. And then how, if that's connected with a form of escapism, almost in kind of leaving home, getting out into the most solitary experience possible in terms of nature and people know people around and having that complete, complete, almost pure solitude, they're related to each other yeah, absolutely yeah it's.
Simon Baxter:I remember before we, before we got meg, and I was out just doing my usual, you know, walk for 15 minutes around the streets and um, and it was. I remember going out. It was dark one night and I was, you know, I was I would just mope around and you know, with my knees really hurting and my back hurting. And I remember looking down this dark path which wasn't lit, and it's just one of those things like it was really weird. I don't, I don't think I've ever told this story because it just seems like a really strange thing. But I just looked down this dark path and it's logically, you just wouldn't walk down because it just doesn't feel safe. You know, it's like why would you walk down this dark path? You don't know what's, what's down there, um, and I never would walk down a dark path like that. But then I was looking, thinking actually I don't care what happens, you know when I go down here yeah, yeah, I think I'm just saying I'm gonna go walk down here and I don't care what happens.
Simon Baxter:I know logically nothing's going to happen, but logically you wouldn't normally walk down there either, but you know. But so in that moment I thought it seems like a strange thing now, but in the moment I just thought, well, something's not right there.
Simon Baxter:You know to have that sort of feeling, of going down, wanting to walk down this path and not care what happens. I knew that. I knew that that was a bit, a bit strange and that, you know, there was probably more going on in my head than than than I realized. Um, so, um, yeah, it was, it was. I don't it's very difficult to articulate because when, when you, um, I don't it's very difficult to articulate, because when you, when you, when you go into the woods, um, and you've discovered something which makes you feel fantastic, or well, not fantastic, but helps you process, um, you know those more negative thoughts and it just kind of it just hushes them a little bit. You know they're not at the forefront anymore, they just become a little bit more settled, um, and then, the more you expose yourself to those positive environments and positive feelings, then those negative things just get sort of pushed further, further down, but not pushed and buried, they're just kind of dispersed and they slowly just fade away over years. Um, and you know, recognizing that is just it's. It's done me wonders creatively, because, like we've just been talking about, it meant that the primary focus for me yes, it was to make photographs as well, but it was just about trying to get myself sorted out mentally and and physically, and and I think, when, when you recognize that nature has such that, such a profound power to, to heal you in that way, the photo, the objective of the of the photography, wasn't to, you know, gain a huge following and financial success. The objective of the photography was to celebrate something, was to say, look, I have to do this justice. If something's made me, helped me, in such a way, then I have to share with the world my view of it. Um, but doing such. I am a perfectionist, that's, that's just who I am. Um, you know some people hate me for it, but I'll never apologize for it because it's done me a lot of good being meticulous with things. So it became a mission to do this justice.
Simon Baxter:I have to present Woodland in a way which isn't just about the kind of more conventionally pretty and I think it's kind of where I'm moving more these days as well is like you know it. It started out as here's a wonderful tree or here's a here's a dead, gnarly, struggling tree, because that's how I felt at the time, and then then it became, evolved into more you know, positive interpretations of woodland and trees, and now it's more about. You know, the woodland is about so much more than interest in trees and I think you know that's what I want to sort of speak for really, and again, it's doing justice to everything that makes a woodland special, which is more than single trees. It's about community, it's about the health of the woodland. It's about, you know, falling, decomposing trees has been a positive thing, you know, as part of the the life cycle of a healthy woodland.
Simon Baxter:Um, you know, it's not people, photographers seem to love decay. I used to see that as a as a negative, negative thing, whereas now it's like no, that's, that's an important part of a woodland's life cycle. So it's just the small interpretations and the small nuances and shifts in my own view of the things are very difficult to see in the photographs, but they're there and so long as it kind of gives you structure and, um, you know, a way to proceed, know with with projects and your work in general, then it can only be a good thing absolutely.
Matt Jacob :And finding those allegories, I guess, and metaphors amongst the woodland that are subtle and nuanced and that may be only seen by yourself. It doesn't really matter. We can't, we matter. We're constantly, as a human race, we're trying to strive for validation, right, and that means trying to get someone else to see what we see. I need to convince you of what I see and so on and so forth.
Matt Jacob :There is a lot of equanimity to be found in just settling with. This is just what I see and this is what I feel, and you know I'm okay with that.
Simon Baxter:I'm I'm present and you know, happy and and peaceful within that yeah, that own self-expression, right, yeah, and um, um, sort of touching on which I probably didn't answer very well because I go off on a tangent, but you know you're talking about, um, escapism as as well, um, and sort of seeking that pure solitude, and you know that was that was part of the problem with, and it's the issue with, chronic, chronic pain as well. Um, is that it's, it's invisible. You know nobody else can see it.
Simon Baxter:You know, if it looks to everybody, else I'm just able to walk and I'm able to get out the camera, then you must be fine, um, but that's that's. The problem is that it's. You do look fine, um, apart from when you know you get your back goes into spasm, but other than that's when you get all the sympathy, then when you can't walk properly, but it's the rest of the time when you're in this state of pain but nobody else can see it, and that's the worst thing about that was that you end up becoming quite insular, um, you know, certainly in the early days, and you think, oh well, you know, no, nobody understands it. So you end up removing yourself from social, social situations and you don't want to be around people anymore because you shouldn't expect them to understand it, but I didn't even understand it at the time. So that's why I ended up spending so much time on my own.
Simon Baxter:But I was kind of content with that. You know, I wanted to be on my own in the woods, just just me and me and meg, and it was it. It was escapism. But I think the thing is is that I felt as if I needed to process how I was feeling and be, find a way, you know, feel as if I was making progress, because I thought I don't.
Simon Baxter:I'm no good to be around people anyway right now. You know, I don't feel as if I'm good company around people. Anyway, right now, you know, I don't feel as if I'm good company. So when I feel if I get myself into a better place, then I'll start to socialize again. But as far as solitude in the woods is concerned, that's remained a constant. You know, it doesn't matter how happy or content I am or how much I'm seeing friends. I always want to be in the woods and sometimes I do go and enjoy photography with friends. Um, but what tends to happen as soon as we walk into the woods like hi, see you in a few hours, yeah, no it's kind of up at the pub later.
Simon Baxter:Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, but uh, until then, leave me alone.
Matt Jacob :Um and isn't nature a wonderful drug for that? Or maybe not drug, a wonderful, um, you know, cure for that? Or at least, um, what am I trying to say? Um, a wonderful yeah, I guess, drug to to to help with almost that need and that want to kind of reconnect with something right.
Matt Jacob :To get me, you know, I was gonna say find yourself, but that's, you know, too cheesy and cliche, but just to go and process, right, we're so, and we talked about this off air, but there's so much, just everywhere, and everything you know, we don't know how to be bored anymore, we don't know how to be at one with nature anymore. We're not only decimating nature, we just don't know how to, we don't really care to connect with it anymore. We're just so, you know, we're just so distracted in a world of abundance. Um, it's, it's often those detractions from, from normal daily life that can really help us see that perspective of gain a wider perspective, but also appreciate the world around us is. Is that kind of zest for nature something you think about and and kind of try and pursue the education side of it in terms of, okay, photography is one thing, but hey, guys, we need to be appreciating nature more, do you not see?
Simon Baxter:it like that yeah, a hundred percent, and um, it's why I went whenever possible, because I'm not an expert, um, but whenever I can, I try to impart some knowledge through my videos about trees, about woodland, about, you know, this particular, this is what this particular lichen is and this is why it's important. You know this. This is what this, you know this algae is called. Or you know, this fern looks like this because of this blah, blah, blah, um. Or you know, I'm photographing an ancient oak tree. But what is an ancient oak tree? How old does it have to be to be ancient? Um, what signs to look out for? Why is that important? You know what wildlife benefits from these particular trees? Um, and I think the thing is it's, it's once you start down that path, it is never ending and it just I think that's the thing it's. It's about, it's about respect and it's about fascination and curiosity.
Simon Baxter:And I, you know, I've done videos with a couple of different ecologists and whenever I do that, I I just think, wow, you know, you're a fountain of knowledge. I know nothing compared to you, but then they don't see themselves as a fountain of knowledge, they see themselves as knowing very little as well, and it just shows that there's so much life but not as much life going on as there should be in our woodlands, but every little detail. There's so much going on beneath our feet. You know the world of mycelium and the way that trees communicate with one another and all the theories that surround that. I found that very inspiring and a kind of source of direction for my own work as well, um, but then somebody will give me some crazy fact, um about. You know something that a very niche species that requires all these different cycles of events to be able to exist and you just think that's. That's crazy. You know, just think the abundance and complexity of things that surround this one particular tree or this one little area of dirt, and it again, it kind of promotes you to slow down and just spend time with something, and the more you understand something and the more you can appreciate all those different life cycles, you don't no longer look at an oak tree as a subject and that's the worst thing to do, I think.
Simon Baxter:You know to look at any tree is merely a photographic subject. You know, these are living documents of time with so many complex things going around them that if you just spend time you know, if you've got an old, ancient tree with holes in it, stick your head inside, just see what's going on, explore it from different angles. You know, be curious and curiosity is one of the best tools we can take into nature. You know, touch things so the feel, get an understanding of why the bark is like that. Um, and in that process of fascination and curiosity, the chances are you're going to then set up eyes upon the best possible composition to best represent how special that particular tree or series of trees or scene of trees is. Um, and that's that's what it's about really is saying. You know, this is just a wonderful, beautiful, complex thing. Um, here is my best possible representation of it and I hope you can, you know, appreciate this, you know, through my eyes tell us about the um, business side of photography.
Matt Jacob :We talked about almost the philosophy behind it and I'm glad you talked a little bit there about how other photographers can kind of learn to have the eyes to notice, you know, the quiet details and the emotional cues that might make up your composition or the, the allegories behind what you're trying to photograph. So I think that's a really important part, obviously, to slow down, you know, and that just by slowing down will allow you to notice a little bit more. But be curious, I think. Be curious in all forms of life.
Matt Jacob :I think a lot of us have lost that desire to be curious. But, that being said, you know, tell me about. I'm curious in how you translate these types of experiences into paying your electric every month and, you know, making a business model out of your photography. So give us a. I have a kind of a general, kind of objective viewpoint from from external, the, the external standpoint, but tell us all the, the, the insider knowledge of how you successfully create a sustainable business model amount around this type of photography yeah, it's, it's not, it's not easy, but I don't know, because it's very it's difficult talking about it.
Simon Baxter:It's difficult talking about this because it feels as if you're in a position of privilege in a way, because it's like well, it's worked for you. That doesn't mean it's going to work for me, but I remember so my friend, thomas Heaton, who has a huge YouTube channel. I became friends with him back in the early days when he'd only done about six videos, something like that. And you know, we went out and we did some photography together and he said oh, you know you. He said, people will love to see your work. You should start a youtube channel.
Simon Baxter:I was like, okay, yeah, I could definitely think about that, you know, because it was at a time where my website development business was failing you know we've not been able to spend time at the desk and he said but don't pigeonhole yourself to woodland photography. People want to see a whole variety of things. And then that started to ring alarm bells with me. I thought, no, this woodland photography is what I love, it's what I know, it's where I've got a voice. I can't imagine talking about street photography or whatever or something else. Um, because that would just feel a bit contrived. You know I've got to go with where my heart is. So, uh, that's what I did, and I went to a local woodland. I mean a practice to start with.
Simon Baxter:You know, I was going out in the woods recording myself on the mobile phone, cringing afterwards with how horrendous it was yeah, as we do, yeah yeah, yeah and um, but then you know, eventually plucked up the courage, made a video and you know, at the moment, at that particular time, it was as best, it was the best it could possibly be at that time for the first video. But again, traction straight away. I was just fortunate that at the time there wasn't loads of people nowhere near as many people on YouTube now as what there is now talking about photography. Because it was like nine years ago or something like that. Because it was like nine years ago or something like that, and there was nobody else specifically talking about woodland photography, um, and I was anthropomorphizing trees and nobody was on youtube talking about that either and it just sort of I was just very fortunate that.
Simon Baxter:I mean, to me it was just like this is what I do. This is just me in the local woods with my dog, anthropomorphizing trees and getting excited by it. Um, and that's just what I did. It was just recording a typical day and it. People loved it, um, and I was. I remember putting the video out and then we went on holiday to the late district and it was over christmas time. I think I just couldn't believe it. You know, we were sat there in a holiday cottage and all these comments were coming through and I got something like 4,000 subscribers just from that first video.
Simon Baxter:Wow and it's still my most viewed video. I've never had a video like it since. And that it, you know, and it kind of grew from there, but very, very slowly, because people say, right now you need to do a weekly video. And it kind of grew from there, but very, very slowly, because people say, right now you need to do a weekly video, and it's like I can't, I can't do that, I can't. You know, physically I can't do a weekly video. So I just got you know, if I had been doing a weekly video for the past nine years, maybe my youtube channel would be huge, but something would have suffered in that process and it probably would have been me and my photography, um.
Simon Baxter:So I've just kind of found a rhythm now where I put out a video as and when I'm ready to, um, and I try to make it thoughtful, um, and you know, rather than just going through the motions, and. And then I have my book, you know, and I'm should have a zine coming out soon and I've done workshops and that's what's provided the income. And, yeah, I do, I make next to no money from youtube whatsoever, you know. I've revenue almost non-existent, and because I just don't, you know, I'm not putting out videos every single week and not getting tens of thousands of views every single week.
Simon Baxter:Um, so I just I don't know. I just I tried to treat it as a hobby, which is ridiculous because you know I have to pay the bills. But what I mean is I don't want to lose the sense of it being a hobby. I don't want to lose that magic of you know, I'm excited to go out with the camera.
Simon Baxter:I love woodland photography more than I ever have, and that's me being genuine, whereas I think, if I'd been so bogged down in trying to get, you know, hundreds of thousands of subscribers on YouTube or, you know, to build on my Instagram following or to make as much money as I possibly could, I don't think that love would be there, because so many people I speak to say well, it's just a job for me.
Simon Baxter:Now you know, I don't love it as much as I used to, and I just think that's a crying shame, because if you want your legacy to be the photography and your love of your subject matter and bodies of work that you stand the test of time and you want to be proud of, you know, then you have to protect the passion for photography, because if you lose that something's want to be proud of, you know, then you have to protect the passion for photography, because if you lose that, something's going to be lost in the end results and people will see it, you know, and certainly people who know what they're looking at will will see it as well, and I'd rather protect that than my legacy to be.
Simon Baxter:Uh, he was the guy on youtube with 500 000 followers or whatever you know yeah, sean tucker yeah, yeah, but but he's another one, you know he's, he puts out, you know, very meaningful, thoughtful work and isn't pressurizing like once a month yeah, once, once a month, um, and he's fantastic, um, and he doesn't need to put out lots of videos because each one carries so much weight yeah, and the days are over of that.
Matt Jacob :Anyway, in terms of making a significant income from social media whether it's youtube, instagram, linkedin, x, whatever might be able to pay for brand deals and add cents and all this kind of stuff you get some pocket money from it and you have to be top, top, top of your game, millions of followers to really like make a significant, sustainable income from it. But what it can do right is if you use it correctly as a tool. It can be used as a lead magnet almost, or a marketing tool in order to push people towards a product or a community or a podcast or a digital asset or your print store or workshops. So as long as people can see it like that. But if people go into it thinking they're going to basically sell out because I want to make money and be a social media star, it's just not going to happen.
Matt Jacob :Um so, yeah, tell me about you know I think I mentioned print stores. I know you, you you love prints as much as I do. Is that still a big integral part of your process and if so, yes, absolutely yeah.
Simon Baxter:Um, I love printing because it's that final stage in the process, isn't it? And it requires so much attention to to detail as well, and I love that kind of meticulous process of producing a nice print because it's the, it's that end of that process of celebration, isn't it you? You know you've you've celebrated the woods by making the photograph, um, you know it's, maybe it's attracted some attention online, but essentially, you know, when I, when I make a photograph, it's with a view to print, and a lot of photographs that I make now, um, they just get lost on. You know where my my biggest platform outside of youtube is is instagram, and sometimes I look at the photograph and just think you know, do we even want to post it on here? It's too small, um, no one. You know the chances are nobody's going to really spend any time with it. Why would you spend time with an image that's, you know, 1080 pixels wide?
Simon Baxter:Um, so it's always with a view to to print, and there's just something very special about, you know, having something tactile and extremely rewarding if someone chooses to buy that print and put it up on their wall and they're this other side of the world, you know, that's wonderful, and particularly and particularly because these are anonymous images, they're not representative of a location, they're not reminding somebody of their holiday in Scotland or anything like that. It's something very personal and to be over woodland and trees that those people have never, ever seen. But they still want it on the wall and that's quite, quite precious really. Um. But also it teaches you a lot as a photographer. Teaches you a lot about texture, about color, about luminosity, um, and when you make your very first print, you realize just how dark your images were.
Simon Baxter:Yeah, so, um, you know, somebody said to me once oh, your images look a lot brighter than they used to be. It's like, yeah, now they're kind of properly exposed because I'm printing them, but I have a new wall over here which is a magnetic wall, so I've been doing a bit of an office reverb recently. So now my printer's over there, I can make an image, make a print and pin it to my magnetic wall nice and easily, so I can sort of move those around, cool, and just live with it. Live with an image and just see how we respond to it as the days go by and if, if I look at it six months from now and I still feel great about it, then I know that's a good print and that's really one that I should perhaps try and sell or frame it and hang it. Hang it in our, in our own house.
Matt Jacob :That's a really great method that a lot of people oh, I don't want to be ageist, well, it's certainly a lot of the younger generation they they photographed for posting social media. Right, that's generally the outlet, me included. I still print and I still take a lot of pride in website and, you know, sharing media kits, because I can, you know, curate and create story, uh, photo pairs that you can't really do as well with social media, plus all the other issues with sizes and resolutions and stuff like that. Um, it's a. That's a really nice way of thinking about photography that you know I'm going to print something out and if I still like it and if I'm still looking at it with curiosity and pride and fulfillment, whatever it might be, after a month, then I know it's something of of value and we just don't don't do that anymore. So, yeah, I might even do that myself.
Simon Baxter:I like that approach, yeah, which is like people have different approaches to post-processing as well, don't they where? You know, I've got a friend who she doesn't post-process soon after making the photograph because she wants to detach herself from the experience so she can be entirely objective. I don't, I don't buy into that. I want to remember the experience, I want to feel the emotion. Still, you know, recall the moment when I process the image, because it inspires the direction I take with the processing. You know, I want the feeling of the moment to guide the direction.
Simon Baxter:Um, but after I've done a quick edit, then it gets put away. Then I'll return to it some weeks later and say right now, objectively, is can something be different? Um, and that's really what. So you know, I'll print, print the image and still be very aware of the experience and the emotion. But then over time you do become more objective of it and the vast majority of the time something changes in the print be a minor, minor thing, yeah, but that's and some people think I'm absolutely bonkers like well, I can't tell the difference between those two prints. I was like, oh, yeah, that one's like a tiny bit brighter, like well, does it matter? Yeah, of course it does, it's perfectionist.
Matt Jacob :Yeah, yeah. What's the point of doing it if you're not striving for, for?
Simon Baxter:perfection, yeah, exactly yeah, and it's. It's just, it never will be perfect. But I just think tiny, tiny, the sum of the tiny changes make all the difference, and that's what editing is for me it's tiny, tiny changes which look like nothing, but the some of those parts make make all the difference um, we talked a little bit about, um, your process and the end result being quite important to you is is, I mean, I guess, in an individual basis with each image.
Matt Jacob :We've kind of talked about how you might realize if an image is successful or good enough for you. But generally speaking, over your photography world, do you think about that word success much and if so, how do you define it?
Simon Baxter:yeah, I used to get hung up on wanting to be validated, you know, and wanting to my work to be admired by my peers, so I used to get sort of quite hung up on that, just like, you know, we it's. It's that stands to confidence, so isn't it? I think you know I wasn't seeking um prayers, I just wanted to feel, I wanted to know if I was heading in the right direction, and that was an important part of the process actually was getting to the point where I actually had confidence in in what I was doing, because I felt as if there was something there. I felt as if I was making nice images, but I didn't know why or how or what good composition was, and I think it was in 2016.
Simon Baxter:I had a bit of a moment where I suddenly became more confident in the images that I was producing, and then what other people and then, over time, what other people think of them has become less and less important. But of course, you know you want to get to a point where you feel as if other people like what you're doing. You know, because part of what we're doing as well is is sharing. But if what you're sharing nobody likes, uh, it sort of feels like a bit of a sort of futile endeavor.
Simon Baxter:But, um, yeah, I think with now there's some people won't necessarily like the direction I take with some of my images, um, but it's confidence that allows me to be, you know, to care about that a little bit less. Um, because if I feel as if it's representing something that's important to me and that I think has value moving forward, and when it's because, as it's, I've taken some images now as standalone images, they're not going to get any real attention if I post them on instagram, um, but having done some publications now and seeing the benefit of, you know, curating images and presenting them as a body of work that's what I'm more conscious about now is, okay, you might not have liked that image on its own, but here's a zine or here's a book or here's a, here's a box set, now I feel as if it, if it makes sense and and that's kind of what I aim for, and then, hopefully, as a collection, as a cohesive collection, that's what people kind of enjoy.
Matt Jacob :Absolutely. And you talk about people, what people enjoy in getting your work out there, and we've talked a lot about the opposite of kind of shying away from people and being solitary. But you've kind of combined all of this into the 617 Club and the tell us about. Tell us about that, tell us about the communal side of simon yeah, the begrudgingly communal side of it.
Simon Baxter:no, it's not um. No, that's. That's a bit it's been. It's been entirely positive, actually, and it's good for me because, essentially, as much as I like solitude and I need that from a photography people are extremely important in the process as well, and now I put a lot more value into that than I used to, because I think when I started to realize that actually was in 2022, um, because I think when I started to realize that actually it was in 2022, um, when I started to feel significantly better physically and I did an exhibition with Joe Cornish called uh, uh, woodland Sanctuary. So I worked very, very closely with Joe um to produce this, this exhibition, and it was just a wonderful experience to kind of share, know the love of nature with, with somebody else and to just have those conversations and you know, and have a sounding board and bounce ideas off somebody else, and then the end result was much better than if it had just been either one of us on our own. That's when that was kind of really the thing that made me realize that actually sometimes working with people is extremely valuable and the whole thing of collaboration, um on a creative project, um.
Simon Baxter:But then tom and I have been looking for, um, probably the past three years or more, doing some sort of venture together. We wanted to do something which was yes, it was, it was a business decision and it was something that we, you know, we wanted to earn money from, but in a way that took some pressure off, so that, you know, it didn't mean that it was a way of earning money, but in a way that would still allow us to go out and pursue photography in a way that we'd like to, and that that's what the community is about really. It's about creating a safe space for everybody else. So, you know, there's the benefits of social media, but none of the pitfalls, you know. So we don't have trolls, you know, and we don't have algorithms and all the stuff that gets in the way, and we don't have algorithms and all the stuff that gets in the way. You know it's it's a smaller number of people, but it's a good, close-knit group so that people can feel safe and they can engage better with posts.
Simon Baxter:It's not just a case of scrolling through and double tapping. It's reading, it's replying, it's starting a conversation, um and for. That's great, and we do like a live stream every single week as well. Actually, we've got two a week now. So that's a great opportunity to engage with the community as well, and they can type comments as we're talking and you know, we have a bit of a bit of a laugh with it and photo challenges and just stuff that gets people involved but also meet up so that people can, you know, meet people in person.
Simon Baxter:And a lot, a lot of people, you know, are very different to me and they're striving, you know, they're really seeking that personal connection with people. They like photography, but they would prefer to be doing it with somebody else. So we're trying to create a platform where it gives them, you know, the vehicle and we try and sort of spearhead this as well to get people to have their own meetups, which they can organize through the 617 Club, and then we have the official ones where we can all get together. But, yeah, it's about creating a real friends as well and I do genuinely love the meetups and meeting people and it's very exciting and it's a bit of an adrenaline rush.
Simon Baxter:Then afterwards it's like, okay, that was fantastic, but I want to be on my own again now. You know, I kind of re-energize by being out in the woods and that kind of gets me back onto an even keel. But I do love those kind of communal meetups as a short burst. It's like visiting the capital city. It's like, oh wow, this is all very fascinating and novel. But after two days that was good, but get me out now.
Matt Jacob :I was going to say it's like seeing your parents. Yeah, enough One day's parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that. Enough One day's enough. Yeah, yeah, um, so how do you? You know, we'll obviously link this in um, link your, your 617 club, as well as your own website and and YouTube channel, et cetera, in the description.
Simon Baxter:People could just head to the 617.club, which gives more information, and then my website is baxterphotos. Where I've got my book is called Gathering Talent great.
Matt Jacob :We'll encourage people to head over to all those platforms. Check them out, throw some money away. Keep supporting the solitary adventures into the woods yeah, well, if you want, I can.
Simon Baxter:Um, I'll give you a like 10 discount code off my book. If that's great, yeah, we'll throw that in there absolutely, that'd be awesome.
Matt Jacob :thank you very much, um, we'll leave with with one question and, going back to the woods, I want to hear about something, um, relative to your relationship with the natural world, that maybe you've never said publicly, but because maybe it feels a bit too vulnerable or strange, and I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but is there anything that you can think of that you think the audience might be interested to hear about?
Simon Baxter:you know, if there's there's moments where you do feel vulnerable and you feel scared, um, and you feel as if, you know, the pressure's a bit too much. Or I know I've had, you know, moments where you know I've lost a friend through suicide and, um, you know, and difficulties with families and and that kind of thing, and I don't know there's, there's just something. Even just the process of actually driving to to the woods, um, and playing the right music in the car, it just puts you emotionally in a different place. And you know I can get emotional, just sort of visualizing what's about to happen. You know, as I'm driving there and when I think just of the profound effect that time with trees has had and it just sounds weird. It was not weird at all, but it sounds weird because you think of the person that you once were, where you would just think that somebody talking about trees in this way is like a bit la-di-da, um, but having now experienced it and lived, live, you know, lived it. And Having now experienced it and lived it and been altered in such a positive way by nature, then you can't sing its praises enough and you have to share that In that process you have to be vulnerable, because if you've been moved in such a way where you can stand in the woods and you know sob, then you know that's that's that's quite a powerful thing to you know, change your, you know fundamentally as a person, where that can actually happen, when you used to think that that would never happen.
Simon Baxter:Um, so I think I think that's the thing is that you know, as as any person, whether you think you're strong and you can't be affected that way. You know if, if you're, if you're struggling, if you're stressed, if you've got difficulties, then I think you can find solace in, in nature of sharing. You know the whole process of sharing and being vulnerable, and I have talked about, you know, difficult things on on youtube in passing as well, and the real hope is that if that can encourage just at least one person to go and experience that and benefit from that in a very profound way, then that's that's job done, isn't it? Um?
Matt Jacob :and that's why it's so important to talk about everything beyond the photograph, um, and everything that's wrapped up in the process and the experience of, of nature, um, and yeah, that's, that's it really I love it, what a great answer and, um, thank you for being open and articulate with kind of your thoughts behind how, how that process, how photography, how that environment and that interaction with nature has has essentially saved you right. And so you know, I hope, I'm sure actually, that even people listening to this, as well as the thousands that that watch your youtube videos, feel, um, feel just as inspired as I have and feel just as hopeful, maybe, to find something that works like that for them, whatever, mental or physical state they might be in the time.
Matt Jacob :So thank you so much. Keep doing what you're doing Incredible work and we'll be watching from over here and hopefully I get to meet you in the woods. Maybe one day.
Simon Baxter:That sounds weird, maybe I I won't. Yeah, yeah, not randomly by accident that would be weird, yeah yeah yeah, all right.
Matt Jacob :Thanks so much for matt.
Simon Baxter:Thank you for having me, it's been great.
