The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
Why Most Creatives Burn Out While Building a Business - Shane Vitaly E095
If you're building something and wondering how to do it without losing yourself, or if you're a creative caught between vision and survival, this one is for you.
Joining me today on The MOOD Podcast is Shane Vitaly, the rebellious designer and founder behind Clocks and Colours, Vitaly, and Etah Love. His jewelry brands have built a cult following by rejecting the polished and embracing the raw.
We go back to where it all started—a few dollars left on a student credit line, a solo trip to Bali, and a handful of handmade rings. Shane shares how that moment turned into a creative empire, and why success often comes at the cost of your nervous system.
This conversation digs into what most people never see.
The anxiety of being a CEO.
The risk of turning passion into a product.
The struggle to stay authentic when the business starts demanding more than you can give.
Shane opens up about stepping away from the top seat, reclaiming his creative voice, and why every great brand starts with a clear archetype.
Follow Shane
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shanevitaly/
Website: https://www.clocksandcolours.com/
_______________________
(00:00) Intro
(02:58) How Shane Got Into Jewelery Design
(05:52) Shane’s Biggest Inspirations
(09:07) Was Formal Education Worth It?
(14:10) Pivoting to Entrepreneurship
(20:14) The Reality of Scaling a Business
(24:44) Shane’s Most Valuable Learning Lessons
(29:18) The Real Impact of AI
(33:47) Managing The Creative Side of Business
(42:36) Finding Purpose in Chaos
(46:48) Balancing Creativity and Business
(51:47) Exploring The Creative Dilemma
(56:33) Shane’s Vision for The Future
(59:49) The Mistakes I Won’t Repeat…
(01:04:51) Dealing with Anxiety
Message me, leave a comment and join in the conversation!
Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.
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Shane Vitale. Welcome to the Moo Podcast. My man, matt, thanks for having me. I would have done an intro to this already before the episode, but I don't want to do it disservice, so I think it's best we give the audience a bit of your pedigree, a bit of your experience, a bit of well as much history as you're willing to divulge with us in terms of who you are, your background and what brings you to sit across from a table.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, just real high level. I actually started my career right here in Bali. I guess it's been 14 years now, which is pretty wild to think I don't feel old enough to have a 14 year old career already. But turns out. But yeah, I made my first pieces of jewelry in Ubud actually. Just, you know, got caught up doing it, just wanted to make something cool. No plan to start a business, and that just kind of snowballed over the years. Since then I've built several jewelry brands Clocks and Colors, vitaly. I had a brand called Etta Love which I rolled into Clocks and Colors, and then just very, very recently I launched a coffee business. So it's kind of a new venture for me. So starting to kind of venture outside of the world of fashion, but most of my career has been in that world.
Speaker 1:And a lot in you know. We look at your background and what you've achieved, which is, I'm sure you would understate it, but which is an incredible amount, whether you were talking on a financial level or on a just a structural business level. But your background is is started with creativity, right, in terms of the creative side of things. Would that be accurate to say?
Speaker 2:No, actually. I mean, I went to university for political science to start with and about two or three years into studying politics, I started to get really angry and really apathetic. Well, first angry and then apathetic and I realized this just wasn't a good direction for me. So I was like, okay, I'll finish my degree, but I started studying marketing at the same time and I actually started working for Red Bull while I was in university, which was really cool. Especially at that time.
Speaker 2:It was kind of the heyday for Red Bull. This would have been, you know, 16, 17 years ago, and this is when Red Bull was really involved in action sports, which is the world that I grew up around, and you know the music world, et cetera. And I was like you know what Marketing is pretty cool, like I feel like I can do things with this. I can, I can have fun, I can work for brands like a Red Bull, et cetera. So I started studying that, finished university and I was just super burnt out, like when I was in university I had three jobs, a full-time school. It was just chaos, but I had to do that to stay there. And then, when I finished, I was super burnt out and I was like I'm just going to take the few dollars I had left on a student credit line and go to Asia, and I just, I mean, some nights I just slept on a beach.
Speaker 1:So going back even further though, as a child would I be correct in saying I think I read somewhere that even in grade six you had a prophetic vision that you would one day design jewelry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was funny. My mom found that I don't know. It's been quite a while actually, but she sent me a photo of something that I did in grade six and it was like a little booklet of all the. You know what I want to be when I grow up, all that kind of stuff. And there was a line in there and it said when I grow up, I'm going to design things and sell them to people. And it's funny because obviously that's what ended up happening and I'm obsessed with doing it. But there was definitely a big chunk of my life where I'd pretty much forgotten about that. Um, you know, I was obsessed with Lego when I was a kid. I was really, really creative with Lego. I would enter all these Lego contests, win the.
Speaker 2:Lego contests, um, get more Lego and then use that to you know, and I'd create these crazy things, Like I designed these cars that could transform into a robot and stuff, just weird stuff, and I was super into that kind of thing, Um. But when I got to high school, I was told not to even go into art class cause I was colorblind. So it actually started to push me away from creative worlds. Um, I ended up finding music, um, which was crazy for me because I was a super hyperactive kid. So I remember when I first tried out a bass guitar, my mom was like I've never seen you sit still longer.
Speaker 2:And I sat there for maybe an hour, which is not that crazy, but it was for me. Next thing, I knew I was playing in metal bands and punk bands and things like that through the rest of high school, but I didn't do anything visual other than really just expressing myself with my style. So I grew up in a small town in Canada, for the most part a couple hours from Toronto, and I mean it was a small town 20 years ago, you know. So the way I was expressing myself was not acceptable, so I got a hard time for it, a lot of bullying through high school etc. But you know I would be wearing super skinny jeans, which were women's jeans at the time, because you couldn't get skinny jeans yet for men.
Speaker 2:Um, you, know, yeah, this is that long ago.
Speaker 1:This is 20 years ago. More than that cause.
Speaker 2:I was in high school right, so I'm 38 now.
Speaker 2:So this is probably 22, 23 years ago, um, you know, I'd be doing crazy things with my hair massive Liberty spikes, mohawks, painting my nails, painting like, doing eye makeup, like I was all out in this small little town. Um, so later on in life, when I started working at fashion, my friends weren't surprised. They're like dude, you've always been like this, you've always expressed yourself, um, but I didn't realize it. It was just something I did. It wasn't something I really thought about, if that makes sense, um, and I certainly never thought about. Later in life, excuse me, once I was a teenager and older, I didn't really think of myself as a creative or somebody that would go into a creative world, even though I was extremely creative. I just, it's like I didn't feel comfortable giving myself that label. You know, I knew people who could draw or could paint, um, and I thought that they were the artists, they were the creatives was there some kind of rebellion undertone to the way you were dressing, the way you were expressing yourself?
Speaker 2:massive. Where does that come from? I was super into punk rock, like proper punk rock, you know, like anarchy kind of punk rock. So for me it was that kind of like old school gutter punk kind of world and um, you know, really fuck the government kind of stuff and um, and I really I was all out on that. So that's why I studied politics Cause I was. I was all about that kind of um idealistic, like political change stuff that needed I wanted to see happen.
Speaker 1:Where does that? Where did that come from?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I honestly don't really know. It certainly didn't come from my family, um, I had a lot of chaos growing up, um, and I was a very, very anxious kid, so I don't know something about that appealed to me. I think something about the, maybe the rebelliousness, maybe, uh, a community of people who felt like they're outsiders, but something made me feel kind of called to that world. I always felt weird, like I always felt very different than everyone else around, especially in a small town. Once I got to Toronto for school, I started to feel a lot more like I could fit in with people, like there was, there was more people like me, um, that were a lot more expressive, that were interested in things other than just mainstream sports, um, and and then I kind of like started to feel like, oh, you know what, I'm actually not that weird, I just didn't have my people here we have certainly in small town Canada or small town America or small town anywhere, right where we have we all.
Speaker 1:We only know what we know when we're growing up in those towns, but we feel maybe some people feel there's something greater than that we don't know how to express it and then you go off to formal education. Do you think formal education helped you bring that? I mean, you obviously met people that were more like you, but would you do it the same way again? I?
Speaker 2:don't know. You know it's one of those things where all roads led to here. So I don't like to say like, hey, I wouldn't do university now. Would I push it on my kids? No, absolutely not. Like when my fiance and I have kids, it's going to be their choice and I'll I'll happily say to them hey, look, it would cost you X amount of dollars to go to university, but if you wanted to start a business, I'll give you that exact same amount of money and I'll put it into your first business. I'm pretty convinced that they'd learn a hell of a lot more doing that. Um, wow, can I be your child? Um, but you know.
Speaker 1:I think that a lot of it was a symptom of just growing up in a small town and feeling really boxed in and feeling like I didn't have a way to kind of express myself.
Speaker 2:Is that where the anxiety came from as well? Maybe I think the anxiety was a whole bunch of things. I had a chaotic upbringing. I lived in a lot of different places. Like by the time I was leaving for university, I'd probably lived in 15 houses at least Wow. So you know that kind of change, especially at a young age.
Speaker 1:I think it makes us a little bit, you know, tweaky. So then, after university, obviously you didn't have much time between university and starting Vitaly essentially no, did you? I'm more. I'm very interested in the formal education side of things and how some of that helped you start that business, or some of it didn't you know how? How do you feel about the correlation between what you learned in terms of marketing degree and how you started and what eventually became your success with Vitalian Clocks?
Speaker 2:I'd say some of the marketing stuff helped. You know we were we were chatting about something earlier today cashflow. Um, it's not a fun topic so I'm not going to dive into it right now, but you know that would have been something I would have studied in university, and the amount of businesses that I've seen start and fail miserably because they don't know how to make a basic cashflow is is pretty mind blowing and it's really sad, honestly. Um, so I definitely got some benefit from university. It's interesting though, because, kind of going back to your earlier question, did going to the city kind of open you up or the formal education, et cetera?
Speaker 2:At least when I was in university, I felt like it was actually trying to really close me in I started getting tattooed the second I turned 18. And as much as tattoos are just completely ubiquitous now at that point, having tattoos the second I turned 18. And as much as tattoos are just completely ubiquitous now at that point, having tattoos the way I had like I had a full sleeve before I finished university, which doesn't sound like anything today, but that was equivalent to full blown face tattoos 25 years ago I had literally. I have professors that still stay in touch that would actually say things in front of the class, like why are you here, like you're never going to get a job, like like you've just ruined your chances at jobs because I had a full sleeve, kind of thing. You know, it was just a different time.
Speaker 2:Um, so I definitely don't think that that led to me kind of like spreading my wings, but, but I did learn things in university that I did take into business. Uh, like I said, like cashflow, do I think I needed to go to university to learn those skills, though? No, I think you know, a good coach or a good course, et cetera would be more than sufficient, but they are super important things.
Speaker 1:A good AI agent, maybe now.
Speaker 2:As we were saying earlier today, like today, anything you could possibly need, I think you can just get it from ChatGPT.
Speaker 1:It's pretty wild. I'm interested in the driving force that maybe there wasn't a seminal moment where you thought you came back from Bali and, oh, I can make this business. I mean, we'll tell the story in a minute, but was it kind of starting a business, kind of a fuck you to the system or a fuck you to the people that told you you wouldn't make it or you wouldn't get a job or you wouldn't do this, or the bullies that bullied you for being different? Was there part of that in the entrepreneurial side of you?
Speaker 2:Probably I'd say probably all of the above and more, but I think a huge part of it is just the fact that I don't think I'd work for anyone very well you know I'm just, I don't think I'm particularly cut out to be a employee, and you know I don't think I'm particularly cut out to be a employee and, and you know I don't think that there's anything wrong with that I'm just not very good at it. I mean, I was always rebellious. I never liked like kind of your run of the mill rules. I didn't like rules that seemed arbitrary or that that you know, like I, I absolutely recognize rules where, like it's to protect somebody, et cetera. But I just didn't like being told like you shouldn't have tattoos because people don't like it. I was like that's absurd. Um. So, you know, going into business and doing my own thing allowed me to continue to, to express myself. However, I wanted to not feel like there was rules, you know, that were just restrictive for no reason. Um. So I think that that was a big part of it, but a big part of my path to business, I think was inevitable, but a lot of it was also just kind of organic. I didn't plan to start that business right.
Speaker 2:I came here because I was burnt out and, honestly, I came to Southeast Asia specifically because I kept having this weird dream. I kept having the same dream every few nights I was only sleeping like four hours a night because I worked so much and I'd have this weird static dream of a Buddha under a Bodhi tree, like chalked on a wall. It's really weird and I don't consider myself particularly spiritual, but I would say that this is in that world. It just felt like I was called to come here. And I came here for two and a half months, like I said, on basically no money and I just ended up feeling called to make some stuff. But when I was making that stuff, still, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to start a business. I brought some home as gifts that was the plan, but I brought home a bunch.
Speaker 2:And then I walked into a store on Queen Street, which is kind of one of the main streets in Toronto for like good shops et cetera, and I asked the shop owner. I was like hey, is this something you'd ever put in here? And she bought all the samples on the spot. And that's when I was like, oh, hey, maybe I actually have a business, um. So I took the last little bit I had on a credit line and ordered more inventory, um, and kind of started that, that dream. But initially I was like, hey, I'll just pay for another backpacking trip. So you can see, like it wasn't like this vision of like oh, I'm going to do this big thing and it's a fuck you to the system and blah, blah, blah. Like initially it was just like hey, maybe I could backpack again. That'd be cool.
Speaker 1:And the curiosity led you to grow and grow and find a business partner and tell us how it went from backpacking trip to actually a business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, like I said it was really organic. So my business partner joined in probably six months after my first kind of round of inventory, Um, but basically what happened was I had a few grand left after that trip on my student credit line and I messaged the guy that made the initial round of rings for me, which were these wood two finger rings, and uh, I, uh, I just said, hey, like, make me as many as you can make for this money and send them. And I was just kind of all in moving into my mom's basement, Um, and I was like, hey, like maybe I can just kind of sling these like out of effect effectively, like out of a backpack, Um, and then people started buying them, Like I said that one store on queen street bought them. So I walked into other stores and they bought them too.
Speaker 2:And I was like months, I started to realize like okay, there's a potential to scale this a bit at least, but I don't have enough money. You know, like the money is not it's. You know what we talked about earlier cashflow, right. So I needed more cash to keep things moving without having massive gaps between having inventory. So I was talking to my now business partner Jason, who was my roommate at the time, and I was just saying, hey, like I think I'm going to need more money, Like I don't know if I have to go raise money or what I should do, and he was like, well, I've seen this working pretty well and I've got some money. Like, like I'll, I'll throw in some cash. And it took about three months for me to take the money from him because I'd had a small business in university, running these snowboarding trips with a friend and we've actually since reconnected, but it destroyed our friendship for a long time.
Speaker 2:It just didn't work out and and you know, one person was blamed kind of thing. Just like young business stuff, you know just kind of early mistakes. And I was like I don't want to start working with a close friend again and then risk that friendship. And after a few months of us kind of chatting about it and realizing like how kind of pragmatic we can be about things and that we're good at talking through things, I was like, okay, I'll, you know, I'll take that little bit of money, but it was just going to be an investment. Initially, like he wasn't joining on um, but he put 10 grand that he had, which was pretty much all his money. And after a couple of months he was like, hey, you need help. And he started helping and at the time he was a professional poker player and a helicopter pilot and within like a year he was just full time on Vitaly as well.
Speaker 1:Where would you say? I mean there's fully bootstrapped right. You didn't take investors at that time.
Speaker 2:So we did so tiny though right Like to us it was a crazy amount. So we ended up raising 58,000 Canadian. So basically we did our cash flow. We were always really hardcore about that kind of stuff and we looked at it and we're like, okay, we have enough runway for maybe three months before Jason needs to like actually start working again, cause we couldn't take any real salary out of it yet. Um, so he was like, okay, well then, we have three months to raise the money. And basically we got to like effectively the full three months and he actually flew out west to west coast, canada to start flying helicopters again. Because we'd kind of like you know, we're like we tried, we gave it a good shot, but we didn't get any money.
Speaker 2:And one of my friend's dads who had he'd been like a ceo for one of the johnson and johnson brands like really successful guy. He's like you know what you guys are hard workers. I believe in you. He put in five grand. As soon as he put in the five grand, I called everyone else that was kind of interested and I was like, hey, we just got an ex-CEO from Johnson and Johnson. Like he's put in money. Are you sure you don't want to put in money, and almost every other person that was even slightly interested immediately ponied up and and within like 48 hours I had like 58 grand.
Speaker 2:Um, it was wild. I actually actually remember the like. I don't know if the right word would be catharsis, but like the extreme release I had, it was such a massive relief. I actually sat down and cried, which like I never cry, and it was even crazier because it was like a happiness cry, but it was like just also this just huge weight that had been lifted. You know I was like, oh, we can do this, we can keep going, you know, and you know, a couple of days later Jason got on a plane, flew back and we started rolling. Um, but aside from that, we've just bootstrapped the business. So it was at like 58 grand and, and if I told you the valuation that those people came in at, they've done very well for themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say yeah, I'm sure, Are they still part of the business?
Speaker 2:Several of them, yeah, yeah, okay. Some of them are just diehard like yeah, we're just like diamond hands kind of thing.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2:But you know some people have sold off pieces or whatever and done really well, but I mean that's a long time ago, right? So you would hope for a decent return at this point too, for the short haul, because you know the business was tiny, like the. Our first year I think we did 14 000 and I think our second year was 40 000, like of real years. You know, like tiny revenue canadian dollars, canadian dollars which at the time were pretty much par with the us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's changed a lot, yeah I mean just yeah, uh, I can kind of resonate with that emotional state of essentially some someone believing in you right, it's believing in you so much that actually put some of their own money down the table.
Speaker 2:And then I'm sure that elation quickly turns to oh fuck, like oh, we've got to do this now yeah, big time and and I took that really, really seriously and you know I didn't grow up with any money, like that's for sure um, and so 58 000 to us was an insane amount, you know. And so we took it super, super seriously. We didn't take any money from anyone. We were really close to Um and I still don't think I would do that just cause I I already find it to be kind of overwhelming. So I think if I was taking it, like you know, from my mom or you know, like close friends, et cetera, the I know I've heard people say that they like doing that because it puts the pressure on them to like really perform I don't think I need to add pressure. I think that my poor nervous system is already decimated, like the last thing I need to do is add more.
Speaker 1:So you know there's a point to kind of going through the Genesis side of your story. But I'm really interested in perseverance. Right, we can look at your quote-unquote success in terms of black and white metrics. Right, it's easy to do that. I want you to give me a bit more of a subjective, almost retrospective view of what the last 14 years has meant to you. But I want to really understand what points you were really struggling, that you had the really tough decision of right we're going to. There's still a tiny little glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. We want to persevere it, or, you know, you have this choice, which I know a lot of people in business, also creatives have right. They seem to be either stuck in the mud or churning. Also creatives have right. They, they, they seem to be either stuck in the mud or churning. Year two, forty thousand, maybe. Were you? Were you thinking at that point like are we? Are we actually going to make anything of this? How do we figure out perseverance and scale?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's funny. That reminds me of a story. Actually, um, we were probably about two and a half years in and, you know, I did well in school and, like I said, I had jobs through school, one of which was a teaching assistant, um, which I shouldn't have even had cause I was undergrad. But you know, I, I, I did well and finished, you know, honors, all that kind of crap, um, somehow. But, um, you know, so, because of that, I had really good job prospects and one of my closest friends, who's still one of my closest friends, he'll be my I'm doing two best men in my wedding. Um, he'll be one of them.
Speaker 2:He sat me down and this is kind of a running joke now, cause he sat me down and he was like Shane, like you guys did whatever, 40,000 in sales. He's like you're, you're making nothing, you're living off of macaroni, and like super cheap coffee. He's like maybe you should consider getting a real job and like you know, and I remember looking at him and I was like what are you talking about? And he's like, yeah, like you know, like this, this is crazy. Like what are you doing here? You know, and I was like dude, last year we did 14,000. This year we did. The next year we did 40,000. The next year we're going to do 160,000. Like I was, like like I know that doesn't look great, but you can't see the light at the end of that tunnel, because I can, you know, like I was like those are meaningful multiples and I know that it's small now, but I don't need a lot of money right now and if I do this for three or four more years and I can even just have, you know, two or three X every single year, we're going to be into the multi millions within a few years. And that's exactly what we did.
Speaker 2:But I do remember when he sat me down presenting a really confident kind of view to him, like no, I'm good, but of course walking away from that being like shit, you know. Like am I being an idiot here, you know. But I remember saying to myself, like you know, at that point I didn't need much and I will. You know, I say this to people often like it is so much easier to start a business when you're young because even even things like your friends aren't making much money yet either, like if they have a corporate job or something, they're not going to be making that much that you're like, oh shit, I can't do anything with any of my friends. Everyone's kind of broke together, it's. I do think it's a lot harder.
Speaker 2:I do respect people for starting businesses much later in life.
Speaker 2:Because you're like, okay, I have real responsibilities now. I still want to like be able to do things with my family, my friends, et cetera, and kind of keep up Right, um, but I didn't feel any kind of desperation at that age, so I was like, if I'm going to do this, it's now, um, and it was funny because we had very little money and we paid ourselves next to nothing. We paid ourselves $2,000 a month for the first three years, I think. So that's what we were living on in downtown Toronto, which is insane. But we got really, really good at being scrappy, which ended up being super valuable for us later on. And one of the best things we got really well versed in was trading things. So we just used our product as currency, so there wasn't like a club or a concert etc that we couldn't go to by just trading our products, which was amazing really yeah, so you'd pay for tickets with your, with the jewelry, basically, yeah you went to any place that we would like to go on weekends.
Speaker 2:All the bouncers, all the bartenders, everything they're all wearing our product, which ended up kind of being a marketing strategy for us anyway.
Speaker 2:But lots of lessons learned there. But yeah, I mean it was tough and I mean there were many, many times where we thought we were done also. And so, going back to what you're talking about with perseverance, it's everything. Intelligence is important, Sure, maybe some education, sure, but like, if you don't have grit like I have Sisu tattooed on my wrist as kind of a reminder it's another word for grit Um, you're, you're done, Like you. You have to just keep pushing through. And we had so many moments where we were like there's no way we can survive this and we just sat down and kind of did everything we could to find the silver lining and to kind of like spin it to make it work. And we always managed to. But you know, I can think of so many times where I thought we were done.
Speaker 1:Give me some kind of top, high level lessons you might be able to impart from that grit. We're talking like cashflow, obviously learn. Learn how to look after your cash and and future forecast, um, learn how to market, sell, brand, like all these big kind of cliche terms, but they're super important. I'm guessing you had a marketing degree, so you had that behind you, but the rest you're just kind of there's a million lessons that can come from all of that.
Speaker 2:Um, the first one would be I said this to you earlier, but I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for my partner, and he wouldn't be where he is if it wasn't for me find a partner that complements you. Um, I I never, ever, ever, see really strong businesses where it's just one person like you need a partner, um, and typically you're gonna have one person Like you need a partner, um, and typically you're going to have one person that's kind of more visionary and you're going to have somebody who's really good at executing that day and getting things done. My partner gets things done, like he. He will make sure that if I give him the vision, that it gets done and he's amazing at it. He's. He's a genius, for sure. He's way, way, way smarter than I am, but he doesn't bring that kind of vision to the table. So, because of his kind of careful planning and smart execution of things and staying on top of cashflow, things like that, we've gotten out of many hairy positions.
Speaker 2:So for example, we used to do clothing for Vitalik. We had a full apparel line and we had one season it was our biggest clothing season yet we had all these pre-booked orders from stores et cetera, and it was a huge part of the business at that point, like bigger than the jewelry side of the business, and we had all the clothing arrive on boat from you know. So it took like six months to get this clothing and we had a hundred percent fail rate, like not a single garment was sellable. So this was, you can imagine, just devastating.
Speaker 2:I remember I found out the day that I started a week-long vacation with my family um, and I'd never even really done a family vacation like this like took my grandma to mexico, that kind of thing. I was the most miserable human you can imagine for a week, like because I thought my business was done, yeah, um, but it survived and I accredit that survival probably more than anything to Jason's smart use of funds. He was always just really, really careful to make sure that we still had a nest egg. He knew when our cash flow was going to be safe again, etc. And we were able to barely scrape through that, but we managed to and within six months months.
Speaker 1:we were kind of back and rolling properly what if you're, um, an individual creative in in that respect? Maybe you don't have a partner, but you might be able to rely on someone else, or a mentor, or even ai these days, to kind of give you that springboard. Is that so I was?
Speaker 2:So I was going to say I'd say, make AI your partner, like you can literally train it to be what you need, right? So you can say, hey, my skillset is creative and I want to be creative. And you can prompt it and say I need actually there's a really great book. It's called Rocket Fuel. It's a really quick, simple read but it kind of breaks down the two critical roles in starting a company. One of those roles is visionary and the other role is integrator I think that's the word they use, but effectively it's pretty self-explanatory.
Speaker 2:But one person is that kind of more CEO mind. They're thinking the big picture, the vision, the direction, or the creative director mind. And then the other person is more like the operational mind and kind of figuring out like how do we get things today? If you're not good at that side of things, you can train chat, gpt, the. The challenge is some of that stuff just has to get done yeah, you know, so some of it get done yeah, some of it's like actually like calling places or like filling up paperwork, things like that.
Speaker 2:But and you know, obviously gpt is not doing all of that stuff yet. I mean, it might not be that long, um, but you can have it kind of walk you through and teach you a lot of that stuff. And you know, maybe GPT is not the best thing for cashflow, but I'd be shocked if it couldn't tell you an AI that's already built that is perfect for that. So you know, I think, more than anything, the most important thing is humility and recognizing, like, what your strengths are and then seeking out the the kind of other side of that, because most people are so focused on what their strengths are that they don't acknowledge that the other part's still super important. So so I think right now, ai is my suggestion. Just get on there. If you're just a pure creative, nothing wrong with that, but find your other half with AI it full time.
Speaker 1:But if I think, moving into the future, we're at the start of an ai revolution. If you don't know, you get left behind pretty fast because the whole world will be using it or integrated into their businesses or systems, whether a mom and pop shop or a multi-billion dollar brand right, imminently, and it's gonna. It's gonna move so fast. We don't know how to learn, how to utilize it for whatever we want it to do, which it can either do now or definitely will be able to do within one or two years. I think it's a mandatory skill to learn and you won't learn anywhere really, other than maybe itself, chatgpt itself or YouTube right, because they're not going to teach. We're talking about formal education. It takes so long to get these things. You know. Even the legislation, even governments, can't keep up with AI because the bureaucracy is so slow moving, so it's really down to yourself at the end of the day, but it's vital.
Speaker 2:It's super vital and, ironically, I think a lot of the people that are most resistant to it have the most to gain from it. I actually think that for people who are, for example, a pure creative, there's never been a better time for them. You know, I know that a lot of those jobs are going to be wiped out and people might be saying what the hell are you talking about? But if you have a vision and you want to do something, ai can help you get there in a way that you've never had before. You know, like you would have to learn so much or you'd have to bring in a partner, but you don't necessarily have to do that anymore or investors, or investors, exactly, exactly. I mean, you still might need those investors, but it's just. It's an interesting time where somebody who maybe isn't as skilled in business, et cetera, can actually make those things happen pretty quickly. Still, um, like the, the things that I've been able to do with it over the last, you know, even just a couple months, it's mind blowing. Like the efficiency that it's created for what I do as a creative is staggering, you know, and it's still my vision and the reason I'm able to do it as well as I can with AI is because I'm a creative, is because I have a vision and I can guide it and I can give it that direction right.
Speaker 2:Like, if you'm a creative and it's because I have a vision and I can guide it and I can give it that direction right, like, if you're a creative director, one of your strongest skill sets and this is something that I don't think it's talked about enough is the kind of the difference between an art director and a creative director. To me there's a really massive one, which is that creative directors are very good at delegating. You know they create a vision, but art directors can often do that too, but art directors often aren't quite ready or skilled enough to step into the creative director role, which is more of a management role. So if you are a creative director, you are so set when you have a tool like AI because you already know how to delegate. Same for if you're a CEO mind, like if you're somebody who's already used to delegating like crazy, you take that skill and you apply that to AI because you're used to prompting people through words every single day to get things done it's pretty powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in, in, let's pull out Clocks. And Colors is arguably my favorite brand. It is my favorite brand of yours. It's epic, and we could talk all day about how that exudes the brand that you want it to exude. I'm going to talk about branding in a minute, but when you talk about art director and creative director, tell us like on a daily, what are the real tangible differences that you would fit those two roles into clocks.
Speaker 2:What they'd be doing. I would be giving the big picture direction as creative director, which is the function I still I still kind of do as so I stepped down to CEO about two years ago after 12 years, and decided I just wanted to purely creative stuff. So, as creative director for clocks and colors, the biggest thing that I'm doing is is providing the vision and the direction and, you know, making sure that that we have a cohesive identity. I have an amazing team, my art director Cass. She's an absolute weapon and, like anything I say, she can execute. So she's really out there executing.
Speaker 1:I'm the one that's making sure that she has something to execute. Essentially right, okay? Yeah, well, I want to talk about branding because I think for me, from the outside of it, one of I could be completely wrong, but one of the the biggest secrets to your success, certainly with someone like a brand, like clocks and colors or fatali, is the branding and what I've read about you explaining it before, in addition to the conversations we've had. We talk about archetypes, but the thing that really hit home with me is not trying to appeal to everyone, tell us the importance of finding that archetype and just zoning in on it.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's worked for me. I don't know that that's always the best thing, um, I've seen a lot of people do really well with these kind of more broad, you know, kind of brands and identities, and they tend to. You know, if you're going to build a massive brand, it's pretty tough to be really niche, you know, um, but I like working in niches and the reason I like working in niches is because I think it's more authentic. So for me, authenticity has always been super important and I've had people, you know, who have no idea who I am, like you know, troll me and things like that and say, like you know, like, oh, he's a poser for this or that, and I'm like, I played a metal band since I was 15.
Speaker 2:Like, this is actually my world and my identity, um, and so for me, building clocks and colors was pretty easy because I just stayed focused on a lane that I knew and that I loved, you know. So I, you know I always loved tattoo culture. I loved, you know, metal and punk and different forms of rock. Um, I always dreamt about motorcycle culture until finally I could get one. Um, but it was a world that I always liked.
Speaker 2:You know, I actually like barbershop culture and kind of just, you know all the rock and roll, fashion and aesthetics, and so, you know, building the brand in that niche was kind of more self-serving than anything. It wasn't like, oh, this is a strategic business choice. It was more like it's where I want to be. You know, and I played in bands when I was younger, but I stopped playing pretty much as soon as I started university, started again a few years ago and super into it now. But what I realized was I really missed that world and I wanted a connection to it. So I built my, I built Clocks and Colors specifically to live there, you know, and now I get to work with all these artists that I've looked up to and admire, and many of them I call friends now, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1:There's almost like the archetype was yourself, right? Oh, it was the person you're building, and this is a good lesson for any creative is to align that authenticity with what you're putting out there, right? So if you've chosen an ICP, avatar, archetype, whatever you want to call it, that's better be you, because you know how to talk to it. You know how to talk to it, you know what it wants, and that's always a good starting point.
Speaker 2:I think so. I mean, I don't know if it works for everybody. This isn't me trying to give advice, but for me, whenever I did anything, whenever I got kind of caught up in the business and started doing product for example, that I thought, oh, this will sell instead of oh, I love this, it didn't work. It didn't work Like even when I was like this will for sure sell, but I don't love it it. It failed and that was a huge, huge lesson for me. Um, so these days, we have a thing and it. You know I didn't invent this, but we use it all the time. If it's not a fuck yeah, it's a fuck no, you know, and and and I look at things and I'm like, do I think that's a fuck yeah? And you know, sometimes it's it's a soft fuck, yeah, and sometimes it's a hard fuck, yeah, but it's at least gotta be yeah, this is sick, you know, um, and that tends to work out for us.
Speaker 2:I actually I stepped away for about a year and a lot of the product started being created more for the perspective or for the purpose of just trying to sell. So, you know, one of the things that was done was they took a lot of the pieces and just changed the stones. It's like this is a bestseller, let's add a different stone, things like that, and we kind of went off a cliff, you know. So again, it was an example of, you know, this isn't being done for the right reasons and I don't know, maybe people can kind of smell it and I don't know, maybe people can kind of smell it they can sense it.
Speaker 2:I don't know what it is, but for me it's definitely worked to be authentic. The Vitali brand was another side of my identity early days, like call it for the first seven or eight years. So the very first hire we made was Zach Vitiello. He was our creative director for over 10 years. He was our creative director for over 10 years. He now is, I think, the global brand director for Nike, for Nike Apparel, which is insane, like super cool. When he told us that he got that job, I was just proud. I was like so upset to be losing him but also just so proud of him. He's just insanely talented. But we kind of co-created, directed Vitaly for the first seven or eight years and then he realized, look, it's time to refresh this and kind of bring it into a modern world, because it's not us anymore and he was really good at doing that. So Vitaly has a very, very different identity than it did many years ago when it was kind of more of a reflection of us. But I find it hard to do that.
Speaker 1:I find it hard to build in a world that's not my world. Yeah, a lot of this is testing, though. Right, a lot of it is just testing, experimentation. As long as it's coming through from the right place and the right source, a lot of it's not going to work anyway, but you've you know. That's kind of the second lesson to branding and creating is you've got to try stuff. You've got to be fast enough to a know know when something doesn't work, but also then get the next thing out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, most stuff fails. I mean, like for clocks, we release probably about a hundred pieces a year, and I would say, of the hundred pieces, probably five do well, and you know, maybe two per year like this is a killer, you know, and for us at the end of the day, those two pay the bills, you know, even though we release a hundred. So, yeah, there's a lot of testing. But regardless of those hundred, I like them all. It's just I don't have a crystal ball, you know, like you just really never know what's going to actually be the one that, for whatever reason, appeals to a ton of people. And we've had certain pieces. It's just you're like, okay, I guess this is a blockbuster. I have no idea why it's cool, but this one's also cool.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of scary and comforting at the same time. Like even with 14, 15 years in the business, it's still a lot of trial and error.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say this to my team. I'm like, look, you can say that I'm arrogant. I have the best instincts of anyone on our team and I've been honing them for 14 years. They're still not great. Like it's kind of like being a professional gambler where you know maybe you can beat the house but you're only winning by 1% or 2%. You know, like that's the edge I probably have. You know it's not significant. It's just enough that when you're, you know, when you're doing a hundred pieces a year, we'll find some winners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then you've got to deal with external factors that come your way all the time, whether it's COVID or tariffs. That's a whole other thing.
Speaker 2:Honestly, the last four years have been as close to like a joke as you could ever imagine, like it's just been. It's just been one after the other of such extreme things that you're like this is this is absurd I got. The fact that we're still going is unbelievable, you know, because it's just kicked and then kicked well down over and over and over again update or the recent tariffs, or it's just. It's been so many things it's just laughable. But you know, again, I credit so much of this to Jason as well. Like you know, we've, we've always been really, um, not strategic, but um, I guess, cautious. You know, like we, we don't spend all our money, we don't dividend out everything, et cetera. We always kind of keep a safety net and that safety net has saved us many times.
Speaker 1:Where has the fulfillment come from over the last 14 years?
Speaker 2:The honest truth is it's it's oscillated between where I'm feeling fulfilled and where I'm not. Um, and and generally I start to feel not fulfilled when I slide too much into my business brain, um. So you know we've talked about this before, but I see myself as very center brained and I think that that's the right place to be for a CEO of a creative company, because you have a bit of business and a bit of creative and I'm not amazing at either of them. I can just speak both languages so I can translate and I can connect to the departments, et cetera, and that's kind of like my like, I guess you could say superpower.
Speaker 2:But what I've found is that sometimes, maybe because of what's going on in the world, like covid or whatever, it forces my brain into like the damage control mode all the time and I'm thinking constantly about the business and trying to, you know, save it, etc. And typically when I land there, I find it really hard to to be really creative and to feel good about what I'm creating. It just kind of feels like survival mode. So you know, like I'm sure most creatives know, like when you're like hyper, hyper, stressed out and you need an idea, I mean some people can work in that state, but most people are like block, you know. And then you go for a run or you go for a long walk or something and you're you're not thinking about it anymore at all, and then all of a sudden the idea comes that's, you know. That's typically how it is for me too. I have my best ideas when I'm not in a state of like fight or flight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sympathetic nervous system kicking off, exactly, exactly so um, and, and when I'm creating something that I'm like actually excited about, that's the fulfillment. You know, like that's when I feel really good. So, for example, we just released a collection with my friend JJ. He's the singer of Kaleo and I love everything we did there, like, and I felt exactly how I felt in the early days of starting the business.
Speaker 2:Like the same, seeing the products and just being like this is fucking amazing, like this is a sick product. You know over and over and over again, like the collection is so strong and and then the content that we created around it, the storytelling, the like. We worked with the photographer and he did well, yeah, he just did the photography, but my friend Carlos Lang he's he's based out of Mexico. We went to his family home, which is like this magical place, um, and it was just such a good vibe and that was it, like the being able to work with other cool creatives and everybody vibing from it and buzzing, and everybody excited about the products. You know that is where I get the fulfillment, but it can honestly, be hard to always be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because, like I said, when you're in fight or flight, you're not there anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, how do you? What kind of practices do you utilize to try and stay in that healthy place as much as possible, or at least stay grounded? I mean, it must be. You know, you rise to the top and you create a huge business, but you're still having normal pressures of daily personal mindset, life. How do you kind of stay just normal and sane? I?
Speaker 2:don't, I don't, I think, uh, I think I'm an extremely anxious person actually, um and I don't like to say that, I don't want to identify as that, but it's kind of just reality Um, really grateful that I have a very chilled out, like stable fiance, cause she, she helps a lot. Um, but you know, funny enough, my, my new business is a coffee business focused on low caffeine and decaf, and that's because I am anxious and I do struggle to kind of stay chill and calm, but I am obsessed with coffee. So I created this coffee brand specifically to make sure that I enjoy it without stacking in caffeine, because it's not helping me at all. But you know, I do, you know a lot of the kind of like quote unquote, like right things to do normal things, Like I journal a lot I meditate of like quote-unquote, like right things to do normal things like I I journal a lot, I meditate.
Speaker 2:When I can. My meditation is more just kind of simple breath, work, um, go for walks etc. But like the truth is, it's like when my anxiety is high, those things. Maybe they take this a speck of the edge off. But yeah, I mean, I'm still there. I have not perfected this, so I can't give a lot of advice on it.
Speaker 1:Was this the kind of the anxiety of being a CEO? Was this, you know, much of the decision to essentially step down from that role?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll be honest, I think 99% of my anxiety came from being CEO, not creative director. That's why I stepped into the creative role. I'm still a majority majority owner, though my livelihood depends on this business, so I still feel it really extremely Um. But when I'm just doing the creative stuff, I'm, I'm golden, I love it, I'm I, it fires me up. Nobody gets more excited to see new products than I do. Still, you know, after 14 years, like when samples come in, I'm like yes, let's see. You know, like, and I'm still fueled by that, you know, and, and it does fulfill me, it does excite me. What doesn't is every new thing that kicks us when we're down and we're like okay, how are we surviving next year? You know, like, that's the stuff that you know can be, can be challenging.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I bet. Do you ever feel like your voice gets diluted? And I don't mean your voice in terms of your directive voice, but in terms of your creativity voice? And you know, I know you do a lot of collaborations. That might be such an incredible part of how you grow a brand like this.
Speaker 1:But do you ever feel that you know because this is very applicable to the individuals out there who might be watching, listening to this who don't have a big brand or don't want to, you know, create a big lifestyle brand or whatever it might be, just want to kind of monetize their skill but are afraid of diluting that voice or that skill because money gets in the way. And I think this comes down to a lot of business skills or business savvy that people may not have or may be fearful of learning. Because as soon as you step into the other side of your brain, the business side of the brain, it's almost like you leave that creative. You're almost like cheating on that creative side of you. Do you feel like you know? I know you're quite center brain, but brain but you you can't have. It's very difficult to balance both at the same time it's unbelievably difficult.
Speaker 2:That's, I think, a big part of why my nervous system is as fried as it is, because I did it for 12 years, right, yeah, um, and I still kind of do it, like I'm really grateful my business partner stepped in and you know he's he's definitely steering and leading the ship now and he takes a lot of that weight off. But again, you know, as as a you know major owner in the business, like it's impossible to be completely removed from that. Um, yeah, it's it. It's hard to separate the two, for sure, um, to kind of answer the earlier part of that, though, I don't really feel like my voice gets diluted, I feel like it actually gets, if anything. It's like one person yelling in a room is loud, five people yelling in the room is a hell of a lot louder. And that's how I feel with my team, like my, they don't try to, um, change it, they don't try to like create their own thing, like kind of going against me. We work together and we we kind of build that vision and I think they show a lot of trust in me, which is which is great.
Speaker 2:Um, I've had challenges in the past a CEO where it it felt like I was always being questioned and challenged on my decisions and after enough years that became exhausting, like I got really tired of just having to kind of like fight for what I knew or what I at least believed was the right thing. But when it comes to the creative side of things, I feel really grateful. That way, like, I don't feel like I've had to fight with my team ever. Um, my team is really trusting and and I still have almost a hundred percent control of product I mean, I really do have a hundred percent control of product, and that's the thing I'm most excited about Um, like and when I say product, I mean just the tangible physical stuff that we make, like the rings, the sunglasses, whatever it might be Um, um, my team just lets me do that completely. So, yeah, I I feel like my voice is much louder because I have a team yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, because I think as soon as you start getting trying to get paid for what you create, it just muddies the waters right, and then you can easily start chasing the money. And if someone's in charge of that money, which is essentially a client or a customer or an investor, it's very easy to then compromise on your beliefs or your creative integrity, right? So I think it's really important to understand that, or at least know that. Have that belief that there's an audience for everyone and this is the biggest inspiration for me with you is, you know, know, understanding who you are and what you want to see out there in terms of jewelry clocks is a perfect example and then going to make that and knowing that that that archetype will always be there. There's an audience for everyone. Right, there's a market for everything, but you've got to not let all the noise get in the way of it yep, there.
Speaker 2:I will say, though, that there's some nuance to that. So let me ask you this do you consider yourself a, a artist, or a designer or photographer?
Speaker 1:I mean romantically, I'd like to say artist, because they just do photography, I think. But I try, I try and be more of an artist than just photographer, if that makes sense okay yeah, no, for sure.
Speaker 2:So I've thought about this question a lot. I I like thinking about it like I like thinking about, for example, the difference between what's a movie and what's a film you know, and I, and, and I like to try to define those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:So for me, there's a movie and what's a film, you know, and I, and I like to try to define those kinds of things. So for me, there's a huge difference between an artist and a designer. An artist is creating something because, in my mind, because they're compelled to do it they're not doing it for any outcome other than for themselves. They have to do it. A designer still wants an outcome. A designer still has an objective in mind. So I'm a designer. So am I creative? Yes, do I have an artistic side of myself? Yes, but I don't consider myself an artist. I consider myself a designer. So I still have always approached creating things from the perspective of like selling. There's still authenticity attached to it. I have to like it, I have to feel good about it. You know the way that an artist does as well.
Speaker 2:But I also am not going to create something if I think there's zero chance of selling it Does that make sense, so I think that one thing that I see happen is a lot of people try to be artists and build a business, and they're not the same thing, and there's probably people who want to skewer me for saying this and oh, that's just not authentic, and blah, blah, blah. I'm sorry, I've been doing it for 14 years and and it's worked. You know like what I've seen over and over again, though, is a lot of people they try to turn things into art projects, and that's a different thing, and I respect that. I have so much respect for artists, but if you can't separate that you're creating something to be sold and creating something to be like seen, you're going to have a problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's a completely different argument. There are many artists or creatives that do and I'm going to jump on top of what you're saying, because it really, really, really depends on what your goal is of what you're saying, because it really really, really depends on what your goal is and what you're doing it for, right, many people are doing things to be seen these days, yeah, and that never lasts, right, and if it does, it ends in tears or it gets handed over to someone else or you completely, completely lose your, your identity of who you are when you first started it, right? So I think it really really depends on I mean, everyone's different depends on what you're doing this for, and I really think about again, I really think about the individual out there, that's. You know, some of my clients as well, I. They struggle so much with making the jump right because they think it's what it's, either art or it's job, right.
Speaker 1:So the art or business, yeah, and I think these words really get conflated with the wrong things. You know, you can be an artist and you can pay the bills every month, right? Whether you can make a multi-million dollar business by just being that starving artist, there's almost cognitive dissonance in that. So I think this is where partnerships come in some business skills, maybe, some compromise along the way. I see so many artists that start one way and then they go down almost the sellout route. You know they get a lot of stick for being sellouts. They're not, they just enjoy maybe the business side and working with clients getting paid for what they do. So I think it really does depend. But underneath all of this is your intention.
Speaker 2:That's what I think, and I mean, look, you know, before I get skewered for this, there are exceptions, like I've met many actual artists that are making incredible amounts of money and they're just doing exactly what they want to do. It happens. I just don't think it happens most of the time and I'm not one of those. Like, I'm still a designer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why does the? Why does an artist like a, one of the most popular singers or bands these days? Why do they tour so much, right? Yeah, it's not because they love touring one city after another, day in, day out. Yeah, they might love it initially, they might love touring per se, but they're exhausted, they're not living, they didn't enjoy the life in that moment. Yeah, obviously it's sweeping generalization.
Speaker 2:Again, yeah, there's probably an exception Of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Again yeah, there's probably an exception Of course, if you just do a gig once a week, then you're going to love it, but once you start having commercial pressures in any job right Once you have started things break. Things break along the way. So it's really great to sit across from someone who's felt that pendulum swing all the time and managed to navigate a way through it without, I guess, breaking anything in in the in the meantime.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yet to be determined.
Speaker 1:What is, um what? What does the future look like for you? Um, you know, with the, with the brand, or with new stuff coming up, because whenever we talk, you've created something new, um, which is fantastic, and, uh, uh, tell us, tell us, what this chapter of your life looks like over the next few years.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting chapter right now because I've gotten the brand and the company to a point where it's not even close to a full-time job for me. I can give the oversight, the direction that I need and I have such a strong team that they can execute it. So I've had a lot of time on my hands to think and kind of figure out what I want to do next. And you know, one of the things is I launched this coffee brand but you know, I've got dozens of other ideas. Some of them are writing, some of them are, you know, more in fashion, but maybe getting back into apparel. But exactly what I'm going to put my energy into in the next little bit, I don't know. I think I want to just kind of start doing things and then see what I want to keep doing.
Speaker 1:You know, um how does mental health play into that? Is it now more of a priority? It's been interesting.
Speaker 2:I've spent a lot, of, incredible amount of energy over the last you know probably two or three years on mental health, and especially the last year year and a half, um probably two or three years on mental health, and especially the last year, year and a half, and I think that, you know, because the company's gotten to a point and because I stepped down as CEO and I'm at a point now where I don't need to work, you know, 50, 60 hours minimum a week, I have a lot of time with my thoughts and that's not always a good thing, but I think it was time, you know, and and and now.
Speaker 2:So you know, you know I've been doing that work and it's been a lot, but I think I'm kind of at a point now where spending any more time just with those thoughts is probably not healthy. I think it's time to do things. You know, my mental health is always best when I'm producing. You know, like, if I feel like I'm actually creating something of value or something that I like, I feel better. You know like, if I'm sitting around a lot, I get really anxious, I get like annoyed at myself, like that kind of stuff, you know.
Speaker 1:So it's like a drug, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Being in that flow state of creating something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I was saying this to you before, but I'm quite addicted to tangible things, you know, unfortunately, because tangible products are really frustrating businesses. But I just I love getting samples of new things. You know, like I. I'm constantly thinking about doing clothing again, because receiving fresh clothing samples was like, is a high, you know, like, and I'm I'm hooked on it. I don't think I could get that same high from just you. I don't know making a course or writing something not that there's anything wrong with that or creating a software. I'm just addicted to day trading thing. You know exactly, like, like we were talking about this the other day.
Speaker 2:Actually, I, uh, I wish I cared more about money in that way so I could spend any amount of time and effort on like, investing and investments, but I I just immediately get bored. Like I just it just makes me kind of can't feel it. Yeah, exactly. But as soon as I start thinking about like, oh, like I could make this really cool collection of clothing, and all of a sudden the business comes to mind too and I get excited. Um, so, the path of most resistance, but it's the one I like.
Speaker 1:What would you? This is a big question. I'm not sure if you can answer it, but let's say you use I mean, let's say, the coffee business. If you're going to pour everything into that and to make it a big business, which I think knowing, knowing the brand that you've created, I think it's, it's going to take off. But what would you do differently that you might have made a mistake doing with compound?
Speaker 2:I started compound 14 years ago, so the short answer would be hundreds, if not thousands, of things differently. Give me some big stuff, um, one of the things I would do is is, honestly and this might sound rude or something but I'd keep my team as small as humanly possible. I've just always worked best that way, like, I like knowing everyone, I like like feeling close to my team, um, and I think that with the tools that are out there today, you can build something really big, really meaningful, with a really small team anyway. Um, I would rather have a small team that feels super appreciated, that's paid well, um, where we're all working hard together. Then have some big, distributed team with layers of management and politics and things like that Cause that's probably the number one thing that burnt me out, um, so I would do that differently for sure, um, but I I don't know that this coffee business is interesting because it's such a different business. Right, like with compound, between Vitali and Clocks, we're rolling out like 200 new products a year minimum. With the coffee business, it'll be like eight SKUs at any given time, versus right now in market we might have 2,800 SKUs on our website. Like, it's just a mind-blowingly different business and I don't really know what to do with it.
Speaker 2:But I was chatting with Finn about this. I was explaining that. You know, one of my dreams is to build something like this coffee business, sell it in three to five years for a meaningful amount of money. Not because I have any ambition for anything more than I already have. I literally I'm fine, cause I I grew up with little like. I'm happy with my guitar collection and a good motorcycle, you know. So it's not about that. It's that I have so many ideas and the thought of having a good chunk of cash where I could be like okay, cool, I'm going to find people that I respect and trust and be like okay, here's a million, take this idea, run with it. Here's a million, take this idea and run with it. That would be the most exciting thing I could possibly do, because the ideas are endless.
Speaker 2:This is going to sound ridiculous I'm saying this on a podcast too but like liquid death is the craziest business that I've watched blow up, of which I had the identical idea before I ever saw it. Yeah, actually, a friend of mine and I came up with it together years ago in a hotel room. We were cause. We were both kind of done with drinking at the time.
Speaker 2:We were like I'm sick of drinking, but we like going out to these concerts and stuff, and we literally it wasn't going to be just basic water. We were like let's just do like sparkling water but make the can look bad-ass so it looks like you're holding a beer, and we had that before Liquid Death, you know, and I'm sure many other people had the same idea. They didn't do it, though, and very few companies have ever executed anything as well as Liquid Death. I was like their marketing is absolute genius. So I'm not going to say I could have done what they've done, but you know, it's just an example of the dozens of ideas I've had in the last even couple of years, kind of thing that I'd love to just be like try it, try it, try it.
Speaker 1:You say the coffee side of it is very different. But doesn't it mostly just come down to marketing and branding anyway?
Speaker 2:It does, but okay. So this is the thing I'm most excited about with the coffee business and it's a massive, massive difference. The coffee business solves an actual problem, right. Like, yeah, when I create ads for this coffee business, I have a million ways to get the message out, which is that this is great coffee that's not going to make you anxious, and that is a really powerful message. I've never had that before.
Speaker 2:You know, like I've always been selling kind of more of a lifestyle, a vision and identity, and that's a thing and it's important to people like we all want to express ourselves and we all want to feel part of a tribe and we want to demonstrate that we kind of live within this certain universe, et cetera. And I'm glad that I've been able to provide that. But from a marketing perspective, it's actually pretty complicated, other than just showing it visually or with a cool video that makes somebody feel like, oh, that's cool or aspirational, but like, try to like really put words into that. And it's hard and it can be done. And there's people probably sitting here going, yeah, I can do it for you and it's like okay, but is it gonna really resonate? Is it gonna really create conversions from ads, et cetera. I mean, we're still struggling with that every single day, but when it comes to all day, I've got thousands of ideas.
Speaker 1:Allday is the coffee brand Allday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's Allday Coffee. It's actually going to be rebranding within the next couple of months, but as of right now it's called Allday and it solves a real problem. It solves a problem that I needed solved and I figured I'm probably not alone. And then I'd go to a group of five people people and there was always at least one person that wanted the product, you know and I was like, okay, this is a this is a real problem.
Speaker 1:Do you think your anxiety is a bit of a superpower, though At times Gets you up, gets you doing stuff?
Speaker 2:hedges your bets. I've worked with a couple of really great coaches over the last couple of years that I'm really grateful to have worked with, and one thing that both of them have said many, many times and they remind me is that you know, a lot of times, the thing that you see as your weakness is also your superpower, and you have to accept the weakness if you want to accept the superpower as well. Right? So I think that my anxiety is probably also linked to just how in tune with things I am, and I think that you know Rick Rubin's talked about this, and maybe it sounds kind of cheesy to some people, but I think that, like, there's probably some sort of collective consciousness and I think that we probably pull ideas from something that's not just purely within our brain. Maybe that's crazy, maybe it's not true, but I feel that it's accurate, and I think that people who are anxious may also just be a little bit more in tune with with a lot of the energy that's around them and what they're pulling from.
Speaker 2:Maybe not, maybe that's just me like trying to make everything sound better than it is. But, um, but I do think that there is some connection to my superpower. I think it's like a sensitivity that I have.
Speaker 1:Do you feel almost?
Speaker 2:and this is not to downplay at all, because I definitely have my anxious moments, but do you feel that you have an understanding that that anxiety is almost an illusion? Absolutely yeah. I mean it's because of anxiety is just the imagination running wild, right, and unfortunately, when you're a creative person so I know a lot of creative people that struggle with it your imagination is really good at running wild, like it, and and it can be, like I said, I do better and I'm tend to be less anxious when I'm producing. That's because I'm using my creative brain for productive things. But if I'm not producing, then a lot of times my creative brain just goes on tears, for you know, thinking about like I don't the end of the world and like how possible that is or whatever, and it might just start racing on that, the what if stories, all the what ifs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or maybe it goes into all the shoulds, all the shoulds that you should be doing, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Which is easy this day and age with information just fire hosed in our face every day. Fire hose in our face every day. Right, um again, and I'm don't want to keep putting you on the spot, but what kind of advice or insights can you give the person at home that might be listening, watching this, wants to take a jump into something and wants to go and try something, but is the anxiety or their fearfulness is just holding them back. How can, how can they just take that step?
Speaker 2:my experience has been that my anxiety goes down when I take that step, you know, and and and that's that's the thing that I think will probably shock a lot of people and and maybe kind of the great irony of the whole thing. But, um, it's a lot easier to imagine all the worst case scenarios than it is to just go out and try. And you know, maybe things won't work out that well, but chances are it won't be as bad as you can imagine. So, um, so my advice would be just go out and do it, like you know. And obviously that sounds easier, the whole nike, just do it thing. It sounds easier than it is. But you, you sit around and suffer. You might as well at least try, and if you're gonna suffer, at least it's not imagined.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one thing that always snaps me out of that is I come back to one question what's the worst thing that can happen if I try this right and it's most of the time is my ego getting damaged? You know, obviously there are much bigger things than that. If you make a huge investment, or if it's a health decision or something like that, obviously. But most of the time, most of these daily things, and certainly when it comes to creativity, it's the fear of looking like a dickhead or failing right, and those often go hand in hand how much does the?
Speaker 2:ego play into that right yeah, it's massive, it's absolutely massive. It's most of the time it's the case. You know, um, I have that challenge with all kinds of things, like there's certain things I have no fear of anymore because I've just done it so much like creating products, super confident with that. But you know, we live in an era where creating content like this is so, so important and I get massively anxious about just putting myself in front of a camera and talking, you know. But every time I do it I'm like, oh, that wasn't that bad, but I dread it for, you know, three days before I do it, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Well, we certainly appreciate you jumping in with us. It's been an absolute privilege and an honor to have you on the show and thank you so much for taking the time Privileged to call you a friend now. So thank you for giving me that time and, yeah, safe journeys wherever you go to next. Hopefully I'll see you when I come back, but yeah, once again, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, man, it was a great time. Cheers, buddy, cheers.
