The MOOD Podcast

The Truth About Building a Career in Photography - Vanessa Joy E096

• Matt Jacob • Episode 96

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She’s built a photography business that spans decades, continents, and platforms — but behind the portfolio is a deeper story.

In this episode of The MOOD Podcast, I sit down in person with Vanessa Joy — award-winning wedding photographer, educator, speaker, and creative entrepreneur — for an unfiltered conversation about what it really takes to build a career that blends art, business, mentorship, and meaning.

We unpack how her relationship with control, creativity, and leadership has evolved — from the early days of flash photography and client chaos to building an ecosystem of retreats, masterminds, and passive income that supports both her family and her students. We talk about the emotional weight of capturing life’s most fragile moments, the quiet value of print in a digital world, and why she’s leaning harder into legacy than ever before.

This is a conversation for the creatives who want to last — not just go viral. For the artists learning to sell without selling out. For the ones building something that still feels like them.

Watch, reflect, and share it with someone building something that matters.


Follow Vanessa
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/vanessajoy
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vanessajoy/
Website: https://vanessajoy.com/

_________________________

(00:00) Intro
(01:59) Recent Photography Retreats
(04:53) The Role of Photography in Vanessa's Life
(06:21) Managing Client Expectations as a Photographer
(09:52) Photo Insiders vs. Mastermind: What’s the Difference?  
(12:18) How a $20K Coaching Investment Changed Her Business  
(13:24) How Podcast Interviews Boosted Vanessa’s Brand  
(17:42) Overcoming Burnout by Restructuring the Business  
(19:28) What Success Looks Like After 20+ Years in Business  
(22:16) Staying Visible in the Age of Social Media  
(23:10) How to Be Authentic Online 
(25:15) The Power of AI and the Authenticity Crisis  
(32:47) The Pressure of Photographing Timeless Moments  
(35:29) Staying Relevant as a Photographer in The Digital Age
(41:13) Vanessa Approach to Storytelling  
(43:17) Why Artists Need to Choose Passion Over Profit  
(46:48) Why YouTube and Content Still Matter in 2025  
(50:32) Why Vanessa Shares Everything…
(53:48) How to Build a Brand as a Creative

Message me, leave a comment and join in the conversation!

Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.

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Matt Jacob:

Welcome to the Mood Podcast. I'm covering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time. I'm your host, matt Jacob. Today, I'm sitting down once again with the fantastic Vanessa Joy, wedding photographer, educator, speaker and creative entrepreneur, for a rare in-person follow-up to one of our most popular episodes. Known for her ability to blend timeless artistry with technical mastery, vanessa has built a multifaceted career that spans decades, brands and continents, from flash photography and YouTube education to legal battles and emotional burnout. She's a voice of both fierce honesty and quiet legacy in the photography world.

Matt Jacob:

In this episode, we pick up where we left off from last year's conversation, diving deeper into how her relationship with control, creativity and mentorship has evolved since our first conversation. We talk about failure, burnout, photographing for legacy and what it means to be truly present in a high-speed career. Then we move into some new terrain the ethical tightrope of growing a personal brand, influencer, culture, and how Vanessa navigates visibility, criticism and scale in the age of social media. We also explore what it means to lead with grace, not just online but in business, in parenting and in the quiet, unshared moments behind the lens. So now here's my in-person conversation with the ever-evolving, ever-grounded Vanessa Joy, vanessa Joy this is so fun.

Vanessa Joy:

Welcome back. Thanks for having me.

Matt Jacob:

Welcome, I should say. Before we had an online episode, now you're here in person.

Vanessa Joy:

That's like it's 360.

Matt Jacob:

It's crazy.

Vanessa Joy:

And it was almost a year ago, right.

Matt Jacob:

It was I think it was October last year. October or November last year.

Vanessa Joy:

It doesn't seem like that long ago it's gone too fast. Life does, doesn't it?

Matt Jacob:

What's been happening?

Vanessa Joy:

Oh, everything.

Matt Jacob:

Everything I mean. Well, one I'm in Bali, I don't live here?

Vanessa Joy:

What are you doing here? What am I doing here? So every year and I got convinced to do this because when Trovo Trip this company I do these photo trips through came up to me like oh yeah, you should do trips, you should do retreats, I'm like who's going to pay to come with me anywhere? Everyone, apparently, Apparently. It's been so successful.

Vanessa Joy:

But the fun part, the best part, and why I'm here in Bali, is that we go to a different country every year. It's not like 7000 workshops of photography, you know, for the seven days, because that would drive me insane. We do cultural things, we do wine tasting, we, you know, go to different places in each country that we go to learn about the culture, all of it, and then we also take photos. But I'm so grateful because it's turned into my travel family. That's what I call. Everybody that comes now and there's a core group of people that have been with me for the past three years now. And then you know some stragglers, new people come in, Some people can't go, for you know they have a wedding that they already booked for the dates that I'm doing the trip. But it's become my travel family and it's so fun. I get so excited to see everyone every single year. I haven't even seen them yet. I just arrived yesterday. I haven't seen a couple of people, but later today is our first dinner.

Matt Jacob:

And has this become more of a passion or more of a priority for you and your business model?

Vanessa Joy:

These types of photography expeditions, Once a year is all I'm doing right now, so it's fairly limited. You got to get your seat fast, yeah, so next year we're going to Iceland, which I haven't even told my group yet. I've told you here we go. We're going to Iceland next year in July.

Matt Jacob:

How many people?

Vanessa Joy:

It's different depending on each place. I think here the max allowed was 24 or something along those lines. Wow, that's a lot, it's actually a lot.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I think here the max allowed was 24 or something along those lines. Wow that's a lot.

Vanessa Joy:

It's actually a lot, yeah, and I think actually Iceland will be 24. The max was supposed to only be 13 in Iceland, but I'm like you can't, like I'll have people yelling at me like that. My core group of people is is about 20. And you know, some won't go. So if I can only fit 13 people like no, no, no, no. So in Iceland I made them get us like extra vans and secondary hotel, like just so that we can all come.

Matt Jacob:

That's awesome. And are these also people from your mastermind Photo Insiders? This kind of ecosystem that you created?

Vanessa Joy:

A few, you know, because some of them are just hobbyists that come with me on these trips.

Vanessa Joy:

Some of them are engineers. They have full-time jobs and photography is just what they do on the side. Some people are retired, some people are portrait photographers and wedding photographers. It's everyone and the age range. I think the youngest person I've ever had on the trip was 26 and the oldest was 75. So it was a huge. It's a huge span, big family and we're all just brought together by the love of photography. So some of them are in my mastermind and some of them are not.

Matt Jacob:

Speaking of love for photography, is this still a? Where does your love of photography sit right now?

Vanessa Joy:

since we last spoke, I can't remember what I said since we last spoke, but I mean, it hasn't changed that much.

Vanessa Joy:

I still love, I like photography, I love business. Someone once said it to me recently, like what is the purpose of your business? And realizing that I am an entrepreneur, I'm someone who runs a business first and photography happens to be the way that I do it, or I serve people first, but photography is just the medium in which I serve people and I've always run my business that way, because I was taught really from a very young age that you know, life is not all about happiness, it's about you know the effect that we have on people around us. And like, when you meet people, how can, how can you serve them, how can you make their lives better? And I do that through photography and, more recently, really through my mastermind and helping people run their photography businesses better so that they can have more financial freedom, more free time or just buy the new camera that they want it's like a balance, would you say, between obviously putting food on the table for your family but also finding meaning in what you do.

Matt Jacob:

I mean, happiness is kind of like this thing we throw around, almost just this label we've made up right in right in humanity.

Vanessa Joy:

But having something to wake up for in the morning.

Matt Jacob:

You know and find meaning from that and that goes through just serving others, right? Is that something you've found a bit more of a priority for moving forward?

Vanessa Joy:

I think it is. It's life priority really, because it's very easy. I'm a goal-driven person and it's very easy for me to just see a goal and see the path towards it and then just put my head down tunnel vision and go. But when I do that, you ignore everything else around you and then your life starts suffering. And it's that pendulum. Everybody has right. Oh, my business is doing well, well, my personal life must be like total flames and chaos. Or if my personal life is doing really well, then I don't know. I'm getting sued by someone. I've never had that happen, but I could see it.

Matt Jacob:

Well, but you know, I thought you had a court case, didn't you?

Vanessa Joy:

Oh, that's because I sued someone else. Oh, you sued someone else.

Matt Jacob:

Okay, no more suits since we last spoke.

Vanessa Joy:

No more suits since we last spoke. No, thank God, and I think that is because anything that comes you know I'm not perfect. I would love to say that I've made every client 100% happy, but that's just unrealistic. But any client that's not happy, I'm going to bend over backwards to make it up to them, you know, because I truly care, like I care, how they feel about our experience together. I care about how I've left you know them versus how I found them.

Matt Jacob:

Have you ever had a line, though, where a client has maybe asked too much or has taken advantage of your kindness? Because you can say that you can be. You know the customer's always right, but I'd argue, the customer's not always right. You know, there's a point where you have to say no, like just you're asking too much now, or you're taking the piss, or my time is worth way more than what I'm actually giving you at the moment.

Vanessa Joy:

Oh yeah, oh 100%. I mean, and I'm very I hope I'm very good at trying lines. I mean you're setting boundaries. It is difficult, but I'm usually pretty good at kind of realigning people. So you know, I will do whatever it is I'm doing to maybe make up for it or even just to serve them in general, but then if they start crossing, like I'll let it, it go. But then I'll also realign them with like hey, we're trying to do this, like is what we're doing right now still serving that purpose? Right? Have we already made up for whatever small little error that I've made that now you're, you know, going crazy over? Still, it's always the clients with the crazy eyes, though I have to say it's yeah yeah, and there's many of them around.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I mean I, I've, I've been that person yeah, you don't have crazy eyes no, I think, um, well, sometimes, well, you have to ask my wife.

Matt Jacob:

But yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to managing expectations, especially in the service industry, and people forget that about photographers. You're serving someone, whether it's a brand or an individual customer, right, or a wedding client, whoever it might be. You're providing a service to someone else, and so there's always kind of like this subservient nature of, well, I'll do whatever you need me to do, but if those expectations aren't aligned at the beginning, right, you'll get scope creep and people try to push a little bit more. Oh, I didn't know that that wasn't part of it, and they try and play that game right.

Vanessa Joy:

Yes.

Matt Jacob:

So I think that comes to just being a good business person, right In terms of being strong in those expectations, figuring it out, making the rules and figuring out when to bend them. Yeah, tell us about the mastermind, then. This is a new thing, I think, since we last spoke.

Vanessa Joy:

It is yes, last spoke, it was not even a thought. I just started it in the beginning of the year, in January. Well, I guess more towards February, but it's all business, 100% business, and like.

Matt Jacob:

I mentioned, give us a bit of context, because you have Photo Insiders, which is kind of your education.

Vanessa Joy:

Photography yeah, photo Insiders, which is photography, education, monthly content, community. This is all business and, like I mentioned, mentioned before, I've always loved business but I had a really hard time teaching it because it never brings in the numbers. When I, when I post on youtube and about business, it's like crickets, right really but if I post about I don't know your autofocus settings and the latest canon camera, I'm gonna get a bazillion views on something like that. So it will you know.

Vanessa Joy:

A lot of hobbyists. I guess Hobbyists, but also people, are trying to figure out how to use the camera, and I mean just photography in general. I mean, what photographer picked up a camera Like I can't wait to do marketing.

Vanessa Joy:

I can't wait to figure out my accounting and tax strategy, right? You just don't do that. So you're not going to spend your time watching all these business videos when that's not technically what you're passionate about. But that's also why there's such a lack of business education in the photography industry. Well, I can't say that there's a lot of business education in the photography industry, but it's not as robust.

Matt Jacob:

Well, there is a lack of it. Well, certainly in my perception of the photography industry, there's so much in terms of you know your technical types of photographers and youtube videos, and that's probably why because they know it does well it does well, but the but the I and the reason why I sound surprised at this.

Matt Jacob:

I'm sorry to interrupt you what you're saying, but in my experience and having so many people reach out to me and ask how do I make this business, how do I make this full-time, I want to transition and I guess because a lot of people start out just on the hobby side of it, like, oh, you know, I want to, just want to try photography, and then they love it and then they get good at it and then they think, oh, maybe I can actually. Yeah, maybe I can actually do something with this, but there's this huge dearth of people, of of knowledge in how to transition from I can take photos to I can run a business taking photos.

Vanessa Joy:

You know, and it's funny because the most questions I get asked are about business, not about the camera but it's just youtube. It might be just youtube, well instagram's the same instagram's the same.

Matt Jacob:

And then when I speak at uh conventions and stuff too so, going back to the mastermind, this was something that you that kind of came from your experience with photo insiders and you saw this gap. Or is it just more the other way? It's more organic? Oh, I love talking about business. I was just going to create it and see who's interested uh, so neither actually.

Vanessa Joy:

So, remind me, I first got introduced to you because of somebody that I hired, I think, to get me on.

Matt Jacob:

I can't even remember. Oh yeah, I think it was through. Was it through my agency?

Vanessa Joy:

so your agency reached out to me, but ironically it was right around the same time I had hired an agency to get me on podcasts.

Matt Jacob:

Oh, okay, why I'm?

Vanessa Joy:

even answering this question this way is because the guy that I hired to get me on podcasts, his whole spiel, his whole sales process, was all about like oh, you make money on podcasts because you get on a podcast and you, you know, introduce them to some sort of freebie and typical funnel right, yeah.

Vanessa Joy:

I'm like okay, but here's the thing, do I, should I go on photography podcasts? Or should I go on podcasts Because you know, photography world's limited, or should I go on these entrepreneur podcasts? And then, if I'm going on an entrepreneur podcast, what product do I have to?

Vanessa Joy:

sell to entrepreneurs in general. So I end up having a conversation with him and, long story short, he basically convinced me, like just do a business mastermind. And I'm thinking in my head there's no way, because of YouTube numbers, because of people who don't come into convention rooms, you know, to learn about business. I'm like there's no way I'm going to get photographers to pay to learn business from me. Like I've tried it, like nobody views the whatever. And he convinced me to do it. He's like let me just teach you how to do it. He convinced me that I could do it and then convinced me to pay him $20,000 to teach me how to do it.

Vanessa Joy:

Classic but. But it is classic. But isn't it funny? Because the thing and even when he sold me the podcast agency thing, I could tell I was being, not that I was being sold to in like a sleazy way, but like I could tell the psychological triggers he was hitting and I could tell he was doing it on purpose. Learn that, because while I understand that he's selling me and he's hitting these psychological like triggers, that's just good communication and I want to learn how to communicate like that.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, I'm not being sold to if I believe in it.

Vanessa Joy:

Right, exactly, but I'm being spoken to in a way that hits my pain points, that I feel like I'm being heard and that you are the solution, and of course I'm going to hold you to that later. I'm being heard and that you are the solution, and of course I'm going to hold you to that later. So I loved it. So I hired him to teach me how to build this mastermind. And it was less about how to build the mastermind, because he's like I'm not going to tell you what to teach. You know what to teach. You're a multi-million dollar photography business that's been in this industry long term and very few people can claim that you know how to teach. I'm going to show you how to build this so that you can sell it.

Vanessa Joy:

And now I teach my mastermind students how to create a sales script to sell someone wedding photography, portrait photography, corporate photography and I'm really just teaching them how to communicate, how to reflectively listen, how to not just get on the phone because I did it and I can only say this because I did this, get on the phone to the client or Zoom and talk about yourself for a freaking half an hour. They don't remember what you said. No wonder why you're not booking anyone. So it's been the best thing I've ever done, this mastermind and it's not a magic bullet, anything I'm not telling you. Oh, you're going to take my 16 week mastermind and at the end you're marketing momentum, you have a CEO strategy so you can run your business without drowning in it. And it's so much fun because I get to teach all these photographers all these amazing tactics and then I don't have to do the work they do yeah, yeah.

Matt Jacob:

Well, that's what people forget you still want to go out and do it you still gotta get the structure.

Vanessa Joy:

Here's the content, but I can't do it for you, yeah, and then I get to celebrate in their wins for all the hard work they did, yeah, which is somehow more fulfilling than all the hard work I'm doing.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, and so is this specific to wedding photographers, or is it all photographers, depending on so how much of this is customized?

Vanessa Joy:

It's 100% customized.

Vanessa Joy:

I will say I typically only work with wedding, corporate and portrait photographers. Because if a landscape photographer came up to me and said you know, teach me how to build a sustainable business in landscape photography, I'm like you know what? I just I don't. Could I teach you a whole bunch? That'll probably help, probably, but I just couldn't, like put my ethical reputation behind that Right, and I want to do that. I want every person that I take on I am willing to risk my own reputation for in order to teach them to take them on. So I'm pretty selective about that.

Matt Jacob:

And is this new model helped with burnout? I mean, remember we talked last time about just being so many days on the road. Has this kind of replaced some of those jobs? That's kind of helped your lifestyle as well.

Vanessa Joy:

Yes, I've been able to say no to some of the things that weren't serving me or some of the things that weren't just taking too much of my time. So last year I did 150 days on the road. This year it looks like I'll do 123. So that's just got a month. That's a month back of my life. So that's just got a month. That's a month back of my life. I think I had 148 days last time. That sounds about right. Yeah, and I probably took another trip is what it was.

Matt Jacob:

So, yeah, good, we're making progress, we're making yeah yeah, I counted it last week.

Vanessa Joy:

I'm like, oh, I told my husband. I'm like, oh, look, it's only 123 days.

Matt Jacob:

That's better right but is is your husband, robs he on the road a lot as well he probably 45 days a year, I would say he's behind it.

Vanessa Joy:

You know and we, this is the first time we've ever been away for more than two or three days since our daughter was born. Oh wow, 10 years ago, almost 11 years ago, did you bring your daughter with you? No, no, they're off. You know grandparents, aunt and uncle, and sleep away, camp yeah.

Matt Jacob:

So you can really enjoy your week.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, well, no, I'm really stressed out, to be honest, because I have the freedom and like the peace of being able to travel so much because of my husband, because I am like OK, like feel secure, like if I'm not there, he's the best person to take care of them. So the fact that he's here with me is actually it makes me very nervous, it's scary to me. So the fact that he's here with me is actually it makes me very nervous, it's scary to me.

Matt Jacob:

Not that I don't trust my brother or my parents right Any stretch of the imagination.

Vanessa Joy:

I think you basically just said that, Vanessa, but whatever I did, but they won't hear this anyway. Well, my mom might.

Matt Jacob:

It's natural, I'm sure. So now we have a better idea of your very exciting and diverse business model. Where does the idea of success fit into that? And you know, we talked before about kind of an exit strategy or at least scaling, and I think maybe the mastermind is something that you know the two tiers that you talked about earlier. We talked about it off air, but is this now a real focus as you transition to less and less time away and understanding that the IP of you is you, and this is a battle that all photographers and artists have right. As soon as you go away, the revenue stops unless you build something sustainable and scalable. Yeah, is this something?

Vanessa Joy:

This is part of it and I'll be super transparent because it's never just one thing. It's never just one thing. So I'm teaching business, but I cannot stand when I see people who teach business that are not actually in the business. So I'm not going to teach you how to run a successful photography studio. If I am not running a successful photography studio Because even if I have the past you know experience of okay, I did run a successful photography studio the information that I have about how to run a business, how to please those clients, it changes in five years, 10 years. So I to me, for me personally, I have to still be a photographer that's very successful in photography.

Vanessa Joy:

Then I'm using this mastermind and, yes, is it helping me, you know, not have to do as much photography, 100% Helping me, not have to be on the road. I'm going to be able to scale it and I'm bringing on other people. I've hired multiple people recently just to help me with that program because it's customizable. I'm not signing people up and you're watching bazillion videos Like you. Come on, we onboard you, we build you an implementation pathway that is specific and custom to your business, what you need to work on, and then we handhold you throughout the entire thing, but I can't handhold everyone right, because then it all stops with me. And then the third level of that is I started investing in real estate. Okay, so now I have, we just bought our second short-term rental so that we can start building a real estate portfolio, so that I can, you know, not work as much and ultimately create a financial legacy for my children too. In Texas, in Texas. Well, one house is in Texas, one is in Florida.

Matt Jacob:

Okay, no-transcript because it's moving so fast. You know we're gonna have to talk about AI later and we'll touch upon it, but social media you're active on social media and it's great, you know we, we watch your videos all the time. What is, what is the thought process behind that at this, at this stage?

Vanessa Joy:

for me, it's about, uh, being relevant. It relevant to the customer that I'm trying to reach, you know, because people getting married are a certain age demographic typically, so I have to be relevant to that age demographic so you're targeting wedding photography clients, not mastermind clients um, mastermind a little bit. A little bit too. Yeah, it's both so because, naturally, photographers are on social media, because they have to be on social media so it's it's credibility, it's staying relevant.

Vanessa Joy:

Uh, I hate it for the record, like I don't, I don't wake up in the morning, like I can't wait to make, I can't wait to do a real this cringy tiktok video it's not on my to-do list. I can't wait to get the lens out and talk about lens like, yeah, I can't wait to go through the camera manual again for everybody because I don't get the most, but it is.

Matt Jacob:

It must be something that you do, you teach so, whether that's in photo insiders or in your mastermind, I do. Yeah, it's necessary, it's a necessary evil. How do you teach it?

Vanessa Joy:

It's just a necessary evil, but I do teach people how to show up in a way where it attracts the right clients, because it is. I mean, if you're going to go hire someone, don't you go look at their social media?

Matt Jacob:

Before their website.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, yeah, before their website Brands do.

Matt Jacob:

Everyone does, every client does.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, so you have to be there. And if you have to be there and if people are looking at that social media site for your credibility, then you have to show up correctly, because if you don't, they're going to look at you like, oh, this person looks like hack, I'm not hiring them.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, but then there's also I think the influencer economy is dying and think the the authentic economy is is right, people like to see you know, the vanessa with no makeup on and not just got up, but they just want to see a vanessa in front of her iphone, right, rather than produced with a microphone with a camera in a studio, right, people? So there's, there is a balance now that I think is important, but you still want to add value, still want to give value right?

Vanessa Joy:

uh, I don't. I'd love not having to put on makeup. I'm here for that.

Matt Jacob:

That's probably why people love you.

Vanessa Joy:

Just very authentic, yeah, I mean, I do have makeup on right now, but you know, I was recently there. There is a program coming out. I'm under NDA, but it's just Like a TV program. No, it's a software program, basically. Oh okay, that's going to AI put on makeup on your video and make it very accessible and in a realistic way, not like the filters and stuff that you see.

Matt Jacob:

Wait, say that again, make.

Vanessa Joy:

AI makeup. Ai makeup for video.

Matt Jacob:

Okay.

Vanessa Joy:

It's pretty easy to do with photo right now, but something's coming out in September that will do it for video.

Matt Jacob:

Okay.

Vanessa Joy:

So basically I'll never have to put on makeup again.

Matt Jacob:

Okay, so you don't have to get ready just to do a reel.

Vanessa Joy:

Right, I don't have to get ready to do a reel, but then what does that do to like the authentic side, right?

Matt Jacob:

That's really interesting, yeah, and you can't tell us more about who's making that?

Vanessa Joy:

No, yeah, but because you're right. You know, and I think TikTok did that a lot for a lot of people is, tiktok is where you go to see. The more authentic, the more real. But there's also a ton of filters that go on that photo and video filters whether it's putting on makeup or making you skinnier or making your body move even differently. I saw before and after on the way here where some girl was just kind of like dancing but the way that she showed the before, the filter and the after, like it just made her hips move like so much more and it was just crazy. Because we're looking at these things and we crave that authentic thing but we don't even know if what we're looking at is authentic or not, because AI is getting that good.

Matt Jacob:

There's so many videos I see now that are AI generated. Actually, the audio gives it away more than the visuals. But even the visual like just thinking I think that's ai, but I'm not 100 sure.

Vanessa Joy:

Like completely yeah, give it a year, oh, and no one will know absolutely so.

Matt Jacob:

Where are we heading?

Vanessa Joy:

I have no idea. Terminator, obviously I mean I've been doing my.

Matt Jacob:

Obviously, we're all gonna die. We're all gonna die when yeah, it depends when. Well, that is it depends when.

Vanessa Joy:

Well, that is true, but in the meantime I am just like bringing on all the Sarah Connor vibes, I think if it helps for you and your audience.

Matt Jacob:

Wedding photography is not, you know, you can't. You just can't replace it. No, you can't.

Vanessa Joy:

No, you can't of the authentic you know moment. But you know, and it's funny because my husband and I always said you know, it's weddings and funerals kind of like death and taxes. It's like weddings and funerals are always going to be the thing, even through a recession, depression, like people still splurge for in some capacity. And even now, with AI, weddings and live events right are going to be the thing that ai can't take over, at least not yet. But what does that mean?

Vanessa Joy:

that means the industry is going to flood yeah there's going to be that many more wedding photographers because headshot photographers for example, people can't get as much.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, work. I think that I think I say this all the time, but I honestly believe thankfully for my genre as well that real, authentic people, photographed by real authentic people, will be become more valuable. Right, people will want that more, and wedding is just a an off cut of that but I think there are so many parts of photography that will be replaced, whether it's the pre pre-production or post-production, whatever it might be, will be replaced, but I still think I think even more so we will value that real connection even more. So, you know, and you see that people running back to film a lot just to have that bit more of authenticity yeah so I'm hoping it'll kind of do the same with social media.

Matt Jacob:

Um, we started seeing that, but yeah, I don't know where we go. I don't know where we go. Universal income right is where we go, probably probably photography becomes a cottage industry and we just kind of do it fun and do do the odd job here and there.

Vanessa Joy:

But yeah, but even still photography and and video. I mean that's what you run into burning buildings to go protect and save and preserve right After you get your people out of a burning building you go in for the photos. I had a bride that actually text messaged me. It was years ago now, but she wrote to me. She's like you know what. She lived in a townhome and three townhomes over was burning, burning down, and her husband called her hey, we're about to lose our home.

Matt Jacob:

What do you want me to run in and save? No, it was in Jersey.

Vanessa Joy:

You know, what do you want me to save? And she goes the wedding album, Go get the wedding album. And he ran and got the wedding album, Like, so there is value to it intrinsically. Whether that turns into monetary value because of everything else that's available is the question.

Matt Jacob:

Different question. Yeah, I mean, I was back at my mom's about six months ago and clearing some stuff out for Attic and I came across just photo albums of me as a child and we're talking 30, 40 years ago and so valuable so it turned down to my mom. We had a lovely kind of emotional hour together and you can't have that on a screen. There's just something different. You know, and one of my guests I spoke to a few weeks ago, stephen Carlish. He's a architectural photographer and he said um, you know, photos, photographs don't dream, don't?

Matt Jacob:

photographs don't grow up dreaming of being pixels and it's like you know the print or the book and you started doing this with weddings right, printing people's books yeah, wedding books, oh, I insist.

Vanessa Joy:

And so how do you? Do that on the same day oh, same day, yeah, can you do on the same day 100, yeah, yeah, uh, you just. I have this little canon printer, little little canon selfie.

Vanessa Joy:

The photos in a book well, uh yeah, and just prints out four, six photos, or two by three and just in the book, and it's, you know, a handful of photos and a bazillion of them. But you know, print is so. It's so powerful. Because if you were in your mom's house and you stumbled across a box of USB drives God forbid, god forbid a box of DVDs what would you have done? You would have put them in another box and then, like, stuck them somewhere to go look at one day, and then you never would have Versus that print. You know we always think the pixel lasts longer, but it doesn't, because it dies almost the second you put it onto some archival anything because you never look at it again.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, very interesting.

Vanessa Joy:

But printed. You get to have an hour emotional moment with your mom. Do you print many photographs?

Matt Jacob:

Of my own, for yourself an hour emotional moment with your mom.

Vanessa Joy:

Do you print many photographs Of my own? Yes, yeah, and I print them kind of the lazy way, to be honest, like two little chapbooks they're called. I just print it right off my phone. But yeah, I do, I'm due for one. I haven't printed one of those books, I think in two years now, so I'm due for one, but I do.

Matt Jacob:

I print a lot. Do you think being a mother makes you a better mentor but better photographer? In terms of that emotional connection?

Vanessa Joy:

I think it helps me relate to more people now. So when I wasn't a mom, like I would relate to the bride, right, because I was a bride, but now that I'm a mom, I relate to both the bride and the mom. So I just relate to more people and I think that helps me see things more clearly and see what is valuable to more people at that wedding.

Matt Jacob:

Does that mean you focus more on the mom and the child, or do you have to work harder to relate to the groom?

Vanessa Joy:

Well, naturally I do have to work harder to relate to anyone younger than me now, but it is what it is the Gen Zs, the Gen Zs, yeah.

Matt Jacob:

Oh goodness, I don't think anyone can relate to them.

Vanessa Joy:

No, no, they can't even relate to each other.

Matt Jacob:

They only relate to their phones.

Vanessa Joy:

You know, I don't think I have to work necessarily harder. Just I see more things now I see more things. I see elderly people. Now I photograph a whole lot more because they are and I hate to say it this way, but they're going to need those photos for the obituary later. Most likely you know the photos I take of grandma. Most likely those are going to be some of the last really nice photos that I take, unless there's another wedding that happens before they pass. More recently a friend of mine had ended his life and photos that I took of him were the only photos they had displayed at that that funeral and it was. It's just like, oh, you never know especially, but weddings especially, it's like those. Those are going to be the nicest photos typically that anyone ever has of themselves and people that they love is that a responsibility that you find hard to bear sometimes.

Matt Jacob:

We're just used to it.

Vanessa Joy:

Now it's certainly hard to bear when you're sitting at the funeral holding the photo and you're like if only I knew when I was taking that photo that it would be used for this.

Matt Jacob:

But isn't the beauty in the fact that you didn't?

Vanessa Joy:

I suppose so, yeah, yeah, because it's happened more than once. I mean, it's happened more than once to people that I personally was very close to, but it's happened tons of times, you know, for clients and relatives, and it's like the honor you never want to have, right, I don't want my photos to be used that way, but at the same time, is there any greater honor than for your photos to be used in the lasting last legacy of a person's life?

Matt Jacob:

don't know no difficult um in that same sense, when you you still you look back at your work. What 20 years wedding photographer? How long you've been doing it now?

Vanessa Joy:

19 to the 23 years.

Matt Jacob:

I think what's easy to what's easy. But what's um very apparent with your work is the timeless nature of it. Do you sometimes get distracted with? Are there trends apparent in wedding photography? So many yeah, do you stay very consciously, stay clear of that because you believe in I don't stay clear of it, I play in all of it. Okay, I play in all of it a direct flash, you know, huge trend.

Vanessa Joy:

Or like intentionally blurry photos right now, am I gonna play in Absolutely because it helps keep me a little bit relevant. Am I going to let it take over my entire work in the timelessness? Or, you know, true to color editing. No, I'm not going to change it that much but I will play in it and that's for me as much as it is for my clients, because you know, true to color timeless photos get really boring for me even to take. So it's like, oh, we're gonna bring this direct flash trend back and you know, try this new thing. Or doing flat lays at the end of the night of like a messy plate and cocktails and half-eaten cake. Uh, you know, sure, I'll do that because that's something new to me. You know I need a creative boost every once in a while, do?

Matt Jacob:

keeps you evolving as as an artist.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, I think when you ignore it, when you ignore the trends, when you ignore what's happening. That's when you get irrelevant really fast. And then you become a YouTube troll complaining about all the young kids. I was going to say.

Matt Jacob:

I mean certainly with something like Direct Flash. I think we talked about this last time, but you must have got some hate for so many. Why, why? What's the reason behind the hate?

Vanessa Joy:

um, because it's it's wrong, you know it's wrong it's not purist, it's not correct and okay, I agree for the record. But that doesn't mean I can't do it. That doesn't mean it's not gonna make my clients happy. Yeah, yeah, it's funny, though you have to laugh how do you teach it then?

Matt Jacob:

how do you teach staying relevant? I mean, you've got to have some uniqueness, but there's also, certainly with weddings, the timeless nature of, and portraits of, that is important as well. And if you don't, maybe you kind of teach giving someone enough time to play as well and to have some kind of experimental shots as backups you know I can't say.

Vanessa Joy:

I try not to tell other photographers what to do creatively. I will teach any method. A good example of this would be you hear the sepia bride fiasco, right? So, long story short, this bride hired a photographer that has a very distinct style and then was mad at that distinct style after the fact. But in my opinion, if a photographer shows a style and then fulfills the job with that style, they've done their job right and if that's the way that they want their style to look like, that's fine. There's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with any style of photography. The only problem you run into is if you show a style and then produce something totally different. And I actually had an inquiry. I can't remember if I booked them or not, but they had hired a photographer. It's very interesting Hired a wedding photographer, love their style and then, because they followed them on social media, they noticed their style shifting to a different type of mood and they didn't like it and they fired that photographer. Because of how.

Vanessa Joy:

Before the Before the wedding right, because sometimes it's a year a year and a half right and in that year's time that photographer's style shifted. I don't know if it was towards a trend or away from a trend or what, but the client didn't like it anymore, ended up canceling the contract for that photographer and was looking for another one that had that original style she liked to begin with but that's okay I don't know, I'm just stating facts yeah, it's interesting because it's important, I think, for artists and I put that in inverted commas because, um, it depends what type of photography you do.

Matt Jacob:

I, in my opinion, know you can just be a shutter button presser, and if you're just fulfilling a client brief all the time, then you're just an operator. If you have a creative scope, then you kind of can put your own take on something. And it's really difficult when photography, because I imagine I've never done it, but I imagine you know it's like fulfilling a client brief, essentially A very, very strict one. We hired you because of A, b and C and we want you to do A, b and C.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, oh yeah, but you know Well, that's why wedding photography is not art, according to so many photographers.

Matt Jacob:

Really.

Vanessa Joy:

And I would agree in a lot of ways. I mean, yes, people, some people do. Let me rephrase my wedding photography. I think I'm a button pusher in a lot of ways. Like I look at your work and I'm like, damn it, I suck. Oh yeah, like your work, when you look at it, it's so, it's so soulful, though but I'm allowed to do that because I'm not I'm not trying to fulfill it.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, a client's special day, it's different. It's really different, must be really difficult for you.

Vanessa Joy:

It can be.

Matt Jacob:

To kind of make another person happy, but also get the fulfillment from being a little bit creative or putting your own spin on something. Do you not just sneak a few photos for yourself?

Vanessa Joy:

I do, I do, but it's within the confines of wherever. I'm being paid to do the thing you know, and there's only so much and I I thanks to youtube and other things I do, I get to do some of the things that I want to do now, but, uh, not like your work.

Matt Jacob:

Like I'm looking at this photo over here, I'm like yeah, I mean, and but any, I say this all like that. A photo like that is just me being able, being privileged enough to be able to spend a week in a location and wait for that shot, Just to make sure the person. I've connected somehow with a person.

Vanessa Joy:

You know, I think I think I look at photos like that and I don't think about a week that you spent there, I think I don't know. He pulled over on the side of the road and saw that moment and then he just captured it and then ran away.

Matt Jacob:

I mean, there's a small part of it right, but I'm not a street photographer, I'm not a, you know there's. I saw a trending reel with Leica on Instagram and this guy was interviewing a lot of famous Leica photographers and one of the questions was focus on capture the moment or composition right. So take your time to set something up and get the composition right or just focus on the moment. It doesn't matter what the composition is like and obviously there's not one or the other there's always a bit of both, but most photographers will sway to prioritize one or the other.

Matt Jacob:

For me, it is composition. I want to make sure that something is set up so that when someone comes into that frame, I don't have to worry about anything else. I'm just worrying about that person, so that I can actually like just be 100% focused on that person. And then the moment comes, it's just I will watch them right, so I don't have to worry about anything else.

Vanessa Joy:

It's so different from what I do, because what I do well, what I do is I have to capture the moment, because I don't get to do it again and I don't get to pick where the moment happens either. I get to anticipate the moment. If I'm lucky, I can anticipate the moment position myself and then capture it, but I don't get any redos.

Matt Jacob:

I don't Do. You see them the day before, so you meet them. You meet them on the day.

Vanessa Joy:

On the day. Well, I mean, I've met them on Zoom, I've done maybe an engagement session, you know. And the locations too, like some of them, most of them I've been to. I mean, I shoot in some new locations, but even then I guess I don't even like location scouting, though it annoys me a little bit. I'm not, I'm very impatient person, which is to my own demise, but also it helps me out a lot. So doing that is I don't know, it's such a foreign concept for me Like I'd be so bored coming to the same place for a week and like I would probably like it if I did it. Like and saw those shots in my head, because I do that normally, like I'll just be out in life and be like oh, wouldn't it be great if I stuck a person there.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah.

Vanessa Joy:

I think I do that.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah.

Vanessa Joy:

But having to do that while being paid, I'm like okay. Well, if I spend six hours doing this now, I'm making less per hour.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, yeah, there's a huge difference and there's's depends how people want to go about their photography journey, right, um, but I can't remember how, how this all came about, but I think it's more, yeah, teaching teaching the creative side of things is very different to and it completely depends on where people want to go with their photography. And what I found, certainly with my mentorship and it's very similar to how you've structured mastermind is a lot of people start with me. They don't know where they want to go with their photography. They've tried loads of different styles and maybe they've tried wedding or they've tried studio portraits or they tried street and something they focus so much on what's going to make me the most money, whereas, right, you know, I spend a lot of the first few weeks kind of flipping that. Well, don't worry about that yet.

Matt Jacob:

If you believe in yourself, you can make money out of anything. It's just you have to figure out how and the diversification of that. But you're not going to make money doing anything unless your heart is in it, unless you actually believe in what you're doing and enjoy it. Otherwise, you're not gonna get up and do 148 days away from home, or you put on your best face for someone you've never met before and yeah, okay, congratulations, fantastic, so happy for you and then just can you pose here for me. So I I think that's really, really important and I was reading a substack article from do you know, amy mccann?

Vanessa Joy:

I don't.

Matt Jacob:

She's not a photographer, but she's. She's a painter and she's going on this crusade of trying to promote art and promote people but, more importantly, promote everyone's creativity. Her argument is a hundred percent of people on on planet earth have an element of creativity which has got to. I would agree. You just got to find a way to bring out. I totally agree. But people get so oppressed with the way they're being brought up and western society and this, all these social constructs that we've got to. You got to perform and get statistics and pass exams and do all this like creativity gets pushed. Oh, you're just having a bit of fun in art class, right?

Matt Jacob:

And um, she did a survey of all of her followers and the survey was how do you, as a creative, make money, basically?

Matt Jacob:

And the number one response from thousands and thousands was diversify your income stream, interesting incredible artists like yourself, and they all are professional, they all have been professionals and they all say the same.

Matt Jacob:

It's like I don't just make money, I can just make money from wedding photography, but I would be exhausted and I'm not sure if it would be fulfilling or I'm not sure if I can earn that much. And it's just, it's a lot of hard work and can I do this forever, don't know. But people who take those types of photos or do video work, whatever it might be, the number one thing they learn quite quickly, or sometimes slowly, is that they've got to have other arms. They've got to be doing, maybe, youtube videos, or they've got to build up an audience on instagram so they can essentially sell them a course or presets or and I think that is such an important lesson for um people looking at the business side of photography, whatever it might be you can't just. Well, you can, but it's not going to last very long if you just earn money from one stream right.

Vanessa Joy:

Well, and like you said, you're going to burn out or your creativity is going to go away, because the second you take your hobby and turn it into a business, some it's. It's repeatable, and something that repeatable is no longer creative, it's rote. So now we have to find some other way to still be creative and stick our hands and get dirty doing something else.

Matt Jacob:

Well, speaking of YouTube, is this still a big part of your business model?

Vanessa Joy:

It is. Yeah, I mean, youtube brings me a new audience, maybe for the mastermind, for Photo Insider, so it's just definitely a big marketing thing. But it also it gets me in the door, gets me in places because sponsors will want to have me make videos. So it kind of opens doors for me that way and creates relationships too, which is really nice. I don't and I've kind of I've definitely mastered it. I have a good team, people who edit for me. You know we'll take long form video and turn it into short form video so that you know it's reusable and that we're putting it on on social. So I have a good flow. I have a good flow.

Matt Jacob:

Is that something you encourage a lot of people to get into at some point? I mean YouTube's the future.

Vanessa Joy:

Maybe, I don't know, it just depends on what they want to do. Right, you know some people. You know you have to kind of go back, because a lot of photographers I would say they and I don't know why it is, but they think, OK, I'm successful at photography, so now, like, what's my promotion? Right, Like what's my next thing? And OK, well, I guess I should teach. And that doesn't necessarily have to be the next thing, which is like YouTube, you know what? That like influencer status maybe, or just creating outside of what you do, for you know, consumer photography Is that the next step? I think there's a lot of next steps, but teaching and YouTube tend to be pretty big ones.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, what are the next steps? Might that be steps, might there be?

Vanessa Joy:

Quitting Real estate.

Matt Jacob:

Real estate yeah, what's the?

Vanessa Joy:

life expectancy of a photography career? I don't know. Five years, ten years?

Matt Jacob:

You've just got to love it, haven't you? You have to. You've got to love it.

Vanessa Joy:

You have to love anything you do for that long. And I think we're very fickle lately. Culturally, we've become much more fickle.

Matt Jacob:

So distracted by the next thing.

Vanessa Joy:

With everything, whether it's your career, your creativity, your marriage your day. Gotta do something different. Gotta get something new. We see too much, we travel too much.

Matt Jacob:

Really.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, I think so. I saw this, you know. Again, just go back to social media. I saw the social media reel and it said something to the effect of we were never meant to absorb all of the world's problems mentally. Right, and we do. And not that I mean I think traveling is important. Obviously I do so much of it, but when you at least for me, and this resonated with me personally when you see the world's tragedy, when you're absorbing this disaster that happened here and this injustice that's happening over there, there's only so much we can take as human beings. And part of that becomes creative, right, if it's coming in as all of this stuff that's just too much for us to handle, then we're going to have it outlet at some point and some of it goes an outlet to creativity, but some of it we internalize. And for me, you know, the more tragedy I see, I mean after I had kids, especially my husband, would have to like hide things from me, because if I saw a tragedy happening to children, like I couldn't take it.

Vanessa Joy:

I'd have nightmares yeah because now I can, you can feel in different ways, so I don't know.

Matt Jacob:

I don't think we were meant to, as human beings, see as much as we see, we weren't meant to have so many devices and technological distractions and brains not equipped for it. Yeah, no wonder we're addicted.

Vanessa Joy:

And we're much happier if we work on something harder, longer, deeper, like a relationship, for example. Ultimately we're happier, but it's long term happiness versus short term. And then all these distractions teach us short term dopamine bursts, which actually deprive us of life's deep, meaningful things, but we're still encouraging everyone to go onto your Instagram as much as possible. Yes, if you could like share and subscribe, that'd be great. Be on it more. Yes, if you could like share and subscribe.

Matt Jacob:

That'd be great. Yeah, be on it. More Is that when it comes to your teaching side of things, or mentorship or guidance, is there any part of you that kind of you want to hold back in terms like your proprietary craft, or are you just completely open book?

Vanessa Joy:

Completely open book. I literally show people my tax returns. If you sign up for like my email list, at some point I will show you my tax returns do it okay, let me remind myself that yeah you know, because what am I gonna? What am I gonna hold back? Right, because if I hold back and people do this with like locations, I'm never gonna tell anybody where that location is, because then it gets overcrowded, which absolutely happens. I've had that happen.

Matt Jacob:

Yep, we're sitting in a place that happens all the time.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, but you know, like, am I going to fight City Hall? I feel the same way about AI, you know. Am I going to be the one that stops the Terminator? No, I'm not. You look a bit like Sarah Connor, Thank you. Hopefully it's the muscles, not the bangs, but I don't know. There's only so much you can like. Hold in right, and how is that helping anyone? Is that ultimately going to make me happy because I'm keeping my I don't know location secrets or marketing secrets? No, I'm going to be much happier sharing them and watching other people succeed to be much happier sharing them and watching other people succeed techniques as well.

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good. Yeah, I mean, there's no technique that I've invented myself.

Matt Jacob:

I don't think people just become so grandiose about their styles, right? Yeah, we didn't just make that up. Yeah, you learned that from all of the things that you've put into your subconscious over you know. You might gain inspirations and you might think you've created something, but I've never believed in something original anymore. I believe in uniqueness and we see it all the time, but actually like true originality, like you've had years of genetics and environmental impacts on you, like there's no, you have it all in your brains. Like where do you think it comes from?

Vanessa Joy:

yeah, there's nothing new under the sun no, um, yeah, interesting, um, yeah.

Matt Jacob:

I get a lot of people tell me they don't know how to brand because they don't want to be in front of a camera, maybe, or they don't know what to say, and so I talk about kind of this, that you don't have to be unique and you don't have to be original, and you don't necessarily have to be on camera, but you have to know what you want to say, and not vocally necessarily, but say with your images, or say with written words or just with your presence, because you're great on camera, you're very used to it and this is arguably an element of your huge success.

Vanessa Joy:

But you must get some people in your cohorts that are just like oh, they don't want to be on camera for sure, and you know, and it depends on what kind of client they're serving. So I feel I flip it. I I don't have them necessarily think about what's my voice, what's my thing, that I want to say. I have them think about their client, who their client is, and learn how to speak to their client.

Vanessa Joy:

But it's a different type of photography. Right, it's art. Mine's very consumer focused, so I have to make the consumer the focus versus the artist, but it can be successful either way. Right, I mean, what do you? What do you tell people if they don't want to be on camera themselves?

Matt Jacob:

well, it again. It depends on what they want to do with their. I mean, they may not be photographers some people you know they just want to. They maybe be a painter or some other artist or a writer, but people conflate social media following with success right All the time.

Vanessa Joy:

I know.

Matt Jacob:

But that's just the society we live in now. But you know, we know that that's not true. It helps, right, obviously. Obviously having an audience is going to make life a little bit easier for you. If you want to sell your voice or sell a piece of work, or reach people to make a difference, there's something to be said for that, but it is not a necessity. So I think, just battling down that barrier first, say like you, don't even if you had no social media account, right, it helps, but you can still have an impact and you can still make sales and you can still network remember networking guys like remember going to events and speaking to other humans.

Matt Jacob:

People hate doing that. They just pick up the phone. Yeah, like you can remember what it's like to call someone yeah, I mean I hate it.

Vanessa Joy:

I hate it. Yeah, it's awful. Somebody calls, calls me, my mother calls me, like I'm not my. No, I'll pick up the phone.

Matt Jacob:

Did you have voice notes?

Vanessa Joy:

Yeah, I think it's obnoxious when people send voice notes. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, your time is more valuable than mine.

Matt Jacob:

So I'm going to send you voice notes, yeah, I can listen to it two times, two exit, fine, that that's totally fine. But yeah, that's that's what I. I tell people and you don't need, you don't need to have to be in front of a camera. No, at all. No, does it help? Probably, if you're good in front of camera, yeah, probably people will resonate with you quicker, um, but definitely you know so many successful artists, successful people that don't have a yeah presence or don't want to be in front of camera and so many people with a big presence that aren't monetarily successful because you have to know how to flip flip it, absolutely yeah.

Matt Jacob:

So go and join your mastermind. Learn how to flip it and make money. Learn how to flip it, yeah um well, thank you so much for for joining me today um this is such a treat? It's been a pleasure to actually meet you in person. Yeah, good luck with the next seven days. I don't need to wish you luck, but go and enjoy it. I hope you're not too jet lagged.

Vanessa Joy:

No, no, it's easier flying this way. It's the other way, do you think? Yeah, I think so.

Matt Jacob:

Yeah, because you're 15 hours behind 13. Well enjoy.

Vanessa Joy:

I'm excited. Thank you so much for coming Nice to see you you too.

Matt Jacob:

All right, take care.

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