The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
How Photography Helped Him Survive Not Belonging Anywhere: Marshall To, EO102
”What if the stories that shape us are the ones we can't remember?"
Marshall To, a photographer whose photobook 'Blank Notes' explores ancestry, memory, and identity through a deeply personal lens, grew up in rural Canada, the son of Chinese immigrants and a Taoist family who ran a small restaurant. His family believed the physical and spiritual worlds overlapped - that we live among spirits of our ancestors, those waiting for rebirth, and those still wandering, restless and vengeful.
In Taoist tradition, during the fifteenth day of the seventh lunar month, the Gates of Hell open - releasing the 'Hungry Ghosts' back into our world to seek food and remembrance. Families burn paper offerings, pray for protection, and leave food for the dead. It’s both a celebration and a warning: walk gently, because the ghosts are hungry.
In his debut monograph, Blank Notes, published by Charcoal Press, Marshall explores the space where the natural and supernatural meet - where photography becomes ritual, and images serve as offerings to both the living and the dead. His work blurs culture, memory, and the unseen, inviting us to question how the spiritual and the physical intertwine in our everyday lives.
What we discussed:
- The origin story behind Blank Notes
- Grief, Taoist ritual, and ancestral storytelling
- Making art from illness, memory, and dual identity
- The power of “noticing” in photography and cooking
- Creative process behind sequencing a photobook
- How to honour invisible subjects through visual storytelling
- Why Marshall believes creativity is compulsion, not choice
- The intersection of food, art, and healing
Pre-orders and signings with Charcoal Press at Paris dates: I arrive in Paris November 10th and I'm there until the 17th
Follow Marhsall and his work:
Website: www.marshalljamesto.com
Instagram: @marshalljamesto
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This episode is sponsored by Strata Editions - use discount code MOOD for 10% discount on their store - visit strata-editions.com to shop and see their collections.
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Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time. I'm your host, Matt Jacob, and thanks for joining me again. My guest today is Marshall Toe, a multidisciplinary artist and chef whose debut monograph, Blank Notes, published by Charcoal Press, explores the veil between the natural and the supernatural. Raised in a Taoist family in rural Canada, Marshall grew up between two worlds, the Western landscape outside his door, and the Eastern cosmology inside his home. In my chat with him, we really talk about many things, one of which being the Hungry Ghost Festival and the Taoist rituals that inspired the book, but also the way food became his first language of expression, and how photography evolved into a spiritual offering to both the living and the dead. We discuss identity, belief, cultural duality, and what it means to make art that serves as both remembrance and release. This is blank notes, and this is Marshall Toe on ghosts, ancestry, and the quiet act of feeding the unseen. Enjoy. Marshall Toe, welcome to the Moo Podcast. Thanks for joining me.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for having me. Nice to meet you too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we haven't met before, but we have been connected through mainly through the release of your latest book and um which we're getting we're gonna talk about. But to set the stage, just kind of speak to us about, I guess, your roots and evolution of your practice for those that don't know you and those meeting you for the first time.
SPEAKER_01:So I grew up in a place called Red Deer, Alberta, which is uh halfway town from Calgary to Edmonton. And I was we're probably one of the very few Chinese families in the city. And my grandparents opened up a restaurant, which my dad ended up taking over. And it slowly just became you know my whole life and like our identity in the in a in a place where you know we were outsiders, but it was kind of like everyone came, everyone came there to uh you know experience our culture, and it was, I guess, our like our way of showing them. Yeah, and and you know, I had a a hard time, yeah. I was you know, I grew up as a Chinese person in in Greek day, Alberta playing hockey and you know, liking a lot of the simple Canadian stuff, but didn't really fit into one or the other. And so that was I think that kind of started it all for me. Just like this when you never really find your identity, or you have like five or ten or whatever, and then you continuously find it and you're just perpetually lost at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Chinese heritage ancestry, and and you were remember remind us you were born in Canada or you were born in China and then moved over?
SPEAKER_01:I was born in I was born in Canada. Uh I was yeah, born in Red Deer. Okay. Uh which is yeah, like a town of 32,000, I think now.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:With Chinese parents.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Chinese parents. My mom came from Guangdong, and then my dad came from Hong Kong. My mom grew up in the Cultural Revolution and was sponsored to come over to Canada at a very young age. My parents vet like I think 13 and 14 or 15 and 16. And I think they met them in Alberta.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So why why why Canada and what was what was the process or progress, I should say, in terms of finding that ent identity where photography came in? When you know, when did you pick up your camera and did it really help you kind of like fit in a little bit more, or like at least feel a bit more of identity or purpose?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the I didn't pick up camera until probably 27. I was I like I I I used to draw. I I started off by drawing a lot of different things. Um my brother's a a comic book writer, so when we were kids, we would continuously draw and and uh he he he went up to obviously becoming a comic book artist. And I kind of if I didn't have his kind of example of like what how you could do it and that it was possible, I don't think that I don't think I would have even tried to do it. But I kind of I kind of like was out of options when I got to about 27. I couldn't couldn't think of what else I wanted to do, but I was always decent at certain things, so I just tried to uh I started taking photos of food and that kind of what started the journey. But it was it was like it was fun, it was fun, you know, making you know elaborate dinners and and photographing them and you know making everything look pretty, but at a certain point it was it just became very hollow or just didn't have like the depth that I was searching for. And then so I just started photographing animals because I remember when I was a kid, I would just watch national geographic videos for you know hours to the point where my brother and my sister hid them all for me. And and I, you know, I was just I was so obsessed that they I I still can't find it to this day, that specific National Geographic video that they took. But that's pretty much what inspired me down the path of just finding more depth within like the medium. And then I think that completely opened me up to like being, or at least the beginnings of being an artist.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, sorry to cut away and interrupt, but I did want to mention the current sponsor of the show. And it's not often we have sponsors on the Moo podcast, but I really did want to connect with this project and feature them as much as possible where I could. They are Strata Editions, which is an experimental photography project and store in Livingston, Montana, in the US, whom I had the luxury to visit when I was passing through a while back on a photography project, and I was blown away. They are primarily a photo book store and exhibition gallery space, presenting collections of photo books, photographic art, and furniture, all designed in-house. By focusing on visual and material work through a thematic lens, they offer a space to consider the relationships between photography, self, environment, and production. The works they share tell stories about themselves as well as how they tell the stories that matter to them. Physically, Strata Editions serves as a reading room, workshop, and exhibition space for anyone who passes through its doors. Online, their e-commerce game in the photo book world is legit, and some of the books in their collections are not even readily available for purchase anywhere else. They're either sold out or out of print or imported. The titles they offer have been made available directly by the publishers or the artists themselves, and their hope is that you'll want to share these books with friends and family and add them to your own library, and I highly recommend you do. I have a few of my own favorite books from these guys. I love them. They offer artist exhibitions and shows consistently also throughout the year, and continue in their own reflections on the relationship between people and environment in this region. So go check them out. They're great guys, excellent platform. Shoot them a follow. Use the discount code in the description to grab a 10% discount on your order. Do be mindful though, they do only ship inside the US at this stage. All right, back to the episode. Why the define depth for us? So why why would this kind of like urge to find this kind of almost abstract thing that we call depth in in photography?
SPEAKER_01:I think it's like it's it's like uh like dissecting your own humanity and everything that you'd been through, pain, heartbreak, and everything, and trying to find a way to use that all to create something, you know, to like and photographing was kind of that was also soothing for me, especially like photographing wildlife. It was it was definitely moments where you're able to really be in be in the moment completely and be like my I remember I stumbled upon a wolf just in in this in this valley, and it it got way too close. I got way too close to it, and my heart just started pounding like crazy. And I was scared, but I was you know, I was so thrilled. And that's not the picture that's in the book, but it's definitely one of those moments where you know it soothed me, it it excited me, it you know, gave me everything that I think I ever needed and wanted.
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Very, very powerful. What what was this what were you trying to soothe, do you think? Was it this kind of upbringing and and loss of identity, not really kind of knowing your place in your immediate world as well as kind of the the the wider world in general?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think so. I think a lot of us artists feel the world and see the world a different way, and a lot of that is, you know, there's a lot of pain with that. There's a lot of you know of that um sense of sense of loss and sense of um, you know, just trying to trying to find who you are, which is so it's yeah, I I don't I don't I don't really know. It's so reactive. You know, it's you know, I I think like Jesse, the you know, the founder of Charcoal, he always talks about it as an addiction. And I I don't go as far as calling it an addiction, but it's definitely something that is impulsive, incredibly impulsive. And it's it's beautifully impulsive.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it it it's I I empathize with that a lot. It's it's this something from deep, deep within that that you know we call it impulsive or innate that that comes out through through camera. We kind of try and make sense of it afterwards, right, in a retrospective way, which is why photo books are so wonderful and sequencing and editing and and kind of that almost posthumous look at what we've what we've lost or what we've trying to find in terms of uh the images that that we're making. So that kind of brings me on to the book, right? We we really want to kind of go go deep into what you've just put out there in the world, which is a a wonderful piece of work. I mean, I don't have physical copy, but the physical copy looks, from what I can tell, looks pretty epic in terms of the design and the structure. We'll talk about that. I've been privileged to have an online copy and obviously seen seen a lot of a lot of that. Tell us about it. Let's just start kind of with the title blank notes and tell us about kind of the the subject matter, how it came about, the process, and just kind of your philosophies around what you you're putting out there with this book.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, it was I think Jesse and I had met about seven years ago at particular review, and my work was it lacked depth at that point. It was most mainly food, a feed portraits, and things like that. And it was encouraged for me to to find more depth. I it was it was hard, it was hard going there the first time. You know, I I never had any sort of criticism. So that was the beginning of that journey of just you know changing my medium. It was I was using digital at that time, and not to say the digital's field are bad, but you know, in order to find that different feel, I definitely went towards film. And so that started the journey of just like creating a different narrative that was beyond you know the reality that you see it in your in your media environment. Like Daido Moriyama, uh Daiske, Yakoda, like people like especially Japanese Vataris, Masi Safase, were these inspirations early on in that work that kind of gave me the idea that I could make work that was not so literal, and that I could make a you know, I can make work, uh long format work, and make it into kind of a movie. And you look through it like scenes in a in a slow black and white movie, and with you know, so many mentors in my life like Jesse Lenz and Igor Posner, who kind of really opened my mind to movies and different books, because I was very naive at that moment. I was just I was just doing it impulsively. I wasn't really thinking about anything. But with a lot of you know mentorship, they kind of just opened me up and I was able to find that you know what makes anyone's work unique and especially mine is you know everything that I bring to it, my my story, things that have happened in my life, whether they're good or bad, and you know, bringing it to the surface and creating from that feeling as opposed to creating it literally was very beneficial for me. You know, like the the emotions kind of just bled into that creativity and it allowed for it to continuously flow and and then I got too into Japanese horror films, you know, and and then all that inspiration just kept going and going, and things were happening in my life that were good and bad. There was a lot of you know struggle at that moment of of family health and things like that. The and uh yeah, I definitely used a lot of that to like help me deal with it. You know, you bring it to the surface and you take some photos, and you know, there's like my dad's writings just in the beginning of the book, there's he would write these Buddhist prayers continuously over and over again, and we decided to put it at the front and the back of the book. And when you open it up, you can you can feel it. It's very it's a physical thing as well as it's um you know a visual thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's uh it's also I mean I I can't wait to actually to touch it. But tell us a little bit about uh I I I imagine kind of those life struggles that you had with family health. You can share with us that if you want to, if not, I totally understand. But it seems like that was a real kind of spark for for the I guess the theme of this book, or certainly the thematic focus and the relationship with life and death and and afterlife, before life. Is is that true in essence?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, growing up, uh especially with all these rituals, it weirdly influenced me, and also, you know, it's yeah, and you know, it's it's something that I'm not I you know, I'm not even sure if it's necessarily real or not, but it it it you know the the life and death part and the in-between has always felt pretty close to me, and and whether I wanted to or not, you know, I when I was growing up, I would I would have found out doors slammed shut, you know, open in in my room and there'd be nothing there. So it's always kind of been around lurping. And like during this kind of uh episode of of like family health, I I'd been feeling very desperate. And you know, when you're desperate, you kind of pray to the heavens and and things like that. And you know, things that I'd kind of forgot about as a child or you know, chose not to really bring with me to adulthood kind of came back. Not not in the way that it did when I was a child, but as an adult, I would get visits in my dreams from people that have passed on, or things like that. So it I don't know if art was imitating life or life was imitating art, but uh you know, it was definitely something that's always been very like. Did you ever feel like you walk around and there's someone behind you but there's no one there at all?
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:I I feel like I felt like that my whole life.
SPEAKER_00:That's a really good uh analogy, actually, to get to kind of describe the book. And that's kind of how it made me feel looking through this. And there's you know, for for people, just some context for people listening and and and watching you who obviously may not have the book yet, but Jesse Lenz, as in kind of charcoal press, you mentioned Jesse, he's he's founder of Charcoal Press, which published the published the book. And the book is centered around Taoism, right? So it am I correct in thinking it's your father that has this or had has this belief that we live in a supernatural world that existed with the physical world?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh it's it's definitely both both my parents and apparently the story is is that they started believing in a lot of this stuff because of me. I was very I was very sick as a child. Okay and I was very, very sensitive. Uh I don't know if I don't I don't know if like I don't want it to become like a ghost podcast and tell more and tell more stories, but yeah, come on, give us a go.
SPEAKER_00:It's Halloween. We're five days away from Halloween.
SPEAKER_01:But uh yeah, I was an extremely sensitive kid, and we we would have these rituals and these festivals, the the Hungry Ghost Festival, and and anytime it's an anniversary of a of an ancestor, we would go to their we would go to their grave sites and offer food and leave food, burn paper offerings, which uh pretty much blank notes, that's kind of where it comes from, is like the the burning of joss paper to the afterlife for for the for the deceased to spend money in the afterlife. So whenever I was a child, after that I'd be coming home and I would just I would start getting a fever. And it's happened probably three or four times in my life, where immediately after being in the cemetery, I would I would get a really, really high fever, and I would feel like I would be being twisted inside out. And uh I remember my my parents one time when I was at my oldest, which probably was about 12 at the time, I remember just burning. I was seeing red, and they put me in front of the altar, you know, in the middle of the night. I was screaming my head off. And I could just hear them pray and pray and pray. And then I heard a crack in the ceiling, and then it just went silent. And then the the the fever broke, and I kind of washed my hands of everything. I was like, I don't want any part of this, this is way too scary. You know, so my parents started, they only told me this recently, that they only started believing in all the stuff because of me, because I scared them to death.
SPEAKER_00:And if that's funny or not, bless them.
SPEAKER_01:I know, right? It's it's funny because you know, I'm 39 now and they just told me this. So it's been yeah, it's now I practice those rituals a little bit more because they they need more to be a little bit as an adult, especially having you know, people in your life passing away and and feeling and and falling ill. So I you know, I I'm not as protected from the ignorance of being young anymore. You know, I now I feel everything, and now I like need more help, whether that's from above or on the ground, whether it's real or not, I don't know. But you know, I'm like, please help me. Anyone.
SPEAKER_00:And so so this is a belief system that's that's uh that's kind of infused in you now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, more or less. I I'm not like I don't practice a ton, but I don't really believe in practice. I just you know, it's like I'm I have one foot out, uh one foot out, one foot in. And you know, it's it's something that you know I will still celebrate with my parents and I will still burn incense, you know, on specific days, and my parents do every morning, and they will ask for protection over us. And I I do it in my own way. I do uh I do it when I'm working, I do it when I'm driving, and I have my own thoughts myself, you know. Because if there's something there, they're not gonna care if I burn incense or not, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I get that. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, why why have you seen other than kind of like these events that you said you've had three or four times, has there been anything else that has been a little bit more visceral in terms of like the visual feel? Have you ever seen like any ghosts or you any other kind of examples or stories that are really kind of prevalent in in the real world?
SPEAKER_01:I can tell you two stories. Uh one I don't remember. Uh one we can't tell us two.
SPEAKER_00:You can't tell us two then. You can only tell us one. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the the the first one is my my brother that he thought it was him that that happened to, and it was actually me. And it's something that we only just found out as well.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:But this was okay, so this was probably about four four years ago. This was just after COVID, and and everything was, you know, going back to normal life. And I'm a big tennis player, I love tennis, so I went to go play tennis with a friend of mine, and the one of the big tennis courts near here is a place called Queen Elizabeth Park. And it's um, you know, it's quite it's not heavily wooded, but there's trees. People sleep there. But one morning I noticed that someone was sleeping underneath a tree. And uh I, you know, didn't think much of it. I just thought it was a normal person. Yeah, I mean, you just see it kind of all over Vancouver, so I didn't really think twice, but I came when I came back down, I noticed that he was still in the same like position, but and when I got closer, his hands were kind of up in the air a little bit. Uh kind of like just off to a side like this. And I got closer and and it turns out that the the gentleman was had had passed. And yeah, it was it was it was it was something I definitely had never seen before in public. Definitely seen, you know, my grandparents. But uh it's interesting the thoughts that go through your head when something like when you see something like that. And so I definitely was thinking to myself about I wonder if this person had people that cared for him. Yeah, I called the you know, the authorities and everything happened, you know, accordingly, and I I didn't go back. I didn't go back to the tennis sports for a while. But about six weeks later, I go back and I I I parked my car. I tried to not park so close to where I found the gentleman. And I park my car, so maybe just like I don't know, a block away. And I get out of my car and I see a Ziploc bag of pictures. And it says it says, I love you, Max.
SPEAKER_00:Well, on the floor?
SPEAKER_01:On the on the ground, on the grass.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:A ziploc bag of pictures that says I love you, Max, and it's I'm pretty sure, 99% sure that it's this gentleman as a young person. And I opened it up and I looked at the pictures. I was curious. I was you know, it it everything was pretty accurate. I I, you know, resembled that person. But that night I had a dream that a a decomposing corpse was trying to grab me. And then when I woke up, I was on my knees on my bed, like with my head in my in my knees. And I felt like I'd been awake for like hours. And yeah, it's one of the and that's one of the things that started happening was things started coming into my dreams.
SPEAKER_00:That's yeah, that's kind of eerie. And lots of it's di it's difficult, isn't it? It's like I I've I haven't had experiences like that before, but you know, I heard I've heard many people with kind of these abnormal experiences without actually like you know, having kind of that scientific evidence in front of you, and it's just like there's there's something there's something to be to be said for these types of experiences, or at least what's going on in the body, in the spirit, in the mind. Whether that's something to do with the afterlife or not, I don't know. But there's there's something, isn't it? There's definitely like an energy around these experiences.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. My my mom has these dreams where when people pass away in our life, she has dreams that and they come visit her. And and I never believed my mom. I was like, I was like, yeah, that's that's all you. But now now I ask her, now I ask her what a lot of this means, you know, have like having people visit you in your dreams while you're traveling. Like I had a dream about a friend that passed away, and we were on a plane, and he was telling me what it felt like to travel. Um and so I asked my mom what that meant, and she for her, she she know she believes that it means that they're moving on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and this is evident in your in the in the book, right? If we bring it back to the book, the this the way you depict this thinning veil between natural and supernatural, and this kind of this kind of opaque line between the two and the crossing over, and there's just a kind of kind of wonderful ambiguity to it, and this wonderful atmosphere to to these images. And when you're creating these images, did you have this theme in mind? And did you have this, you know, obviously it allowed you to kind of dive a little bit deeper into this this topic and your family and your family belief system as well as your own? But did you was this kind of uh I mean we talked about being reactive and and kind of being instinctive, but was this an idea that you had and then you went and shot, or how did it kind of formulate?
SPEAKER_01:I don't like I I I I don't think I ever wanted to be broken, like I didn't really want I wanted it to be like easy and pretty, you know, at the beginning stages of of you know the idea of being an artist. I didn't I didn't necessarily want to be like like like I w I didn't I didn't really want it to be so raw, but I didn't understand or have never s I didn't see people's work like yeah, I wasn't shown work that could you know like Raymond Meeks You know his work is so so like raw and I never seen any work like that before and and I just wanted to to figure out how to do that and uh and and so that meant like breaking my mold and I after that kinda happened and then like talking about the influences that that kind of came after, it really just meant like finding subject matter that I liked. And then being in that feeling just to accept something. Like a lot of times I'd be, you know, parked walking alone at night and scared out of my mind. And trying to photograph whatever with a with a headlamp and a flash, you know, with noises going everywhere. You know, so I just wanted to like, I I just tried to keep that feeling, whatever that was, and just go out every night. And and try to capture that feeling to whatever whatever subject matter that was. So the thematically it it it kind of just it just a vault. And then near the end, it definitely became more purposeful. Of like there's there's a girl in the woods in in the book, my friend Kenui, and she's this wonderful Japanese dancer. And I had an idea of her just dancing in the woods at night, and just just taking video of it. And so, you know, just photographed it. I think that's like one of the very few shots that are is is like the whole scene was created. It was a completely natural, but in in lots of ways very, very natural.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so many like cool shots. A few more qu yeah obviously a few more questions, but the the you talked about the subject matter, and that's quite important because it's relates to the hungry ghosts, right? So can you give us can you explain to us, I guess, Taoism in general, but this this belief and you know that the time of year when the gates of hell open to the hungry ghosts and what kind of form they take? Can you just give us a give us a synopsis about that?
SPEAKER_01:My parents always just told me that you know during these festivals not to do anything dumb outside at night. Otherwise, people would like things would just follow you home. Yeah, yeah. I was I was actually very I would like you know you know be very polite, you know, at night and just you know kind of uh you know um speak uh speak politely to the to the ether. And so, but uh yeah, looking more into it, you know, it's the so during the festival you leave food and incense out so that like so that your family members can find their way back home and they will have a great feast. But for those that their families or don't have families, or their families don't leave anything out there, they just tend to wander and they become kind of malevolent, right? That's the word.
SPEAKER_00:Malevolent malevolent, yeah, yeah. Malevolent, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Too early on Sunday morning.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, then they and then they kind of they're they're hungry, they're hunger for, you know, for for love and family and and food. And say, you know, they they definitely attach themselves. And that's that's kind of how, you know, or how I felt, you know, talking about this story when I was a kid coming back from a cemetery. That that's how my mom explained it, that someone came with me. Because I was probably, you know, I was a kid, I was probably just like running around on gravestones and whatever, right? You know, uh, that I perhaps was being disrespectful and something came home. So it was always, you know, it was always a fear for me, even now. And uh the and the forms that they can take to me, and especially in this book, like you know, they they can take many forms. Like you see the owl as being being a familiar in the book, but it could be anything, honestly. It could it could turn, you know, it's like you go through a force not knowing, like a dark force not knowing, you know, who's actually trying to help you, or who's leading you down a path that's actually not good.
SPEAKER_00:So scary. I mean, as a ch as a child, like telling you these these stories. I mean, obviously that your parents had your best interests at heart, but you must have been petrified.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, it they keep your kids in line. Do you have kids?
SPEAKER_00:That was what I was gonna say. There's another the there's another thing to this. It may have just been like they may have been pushing it a little bit more just to keep you behaved, keep you well behaved.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, I don't know if it's actually real or not, per se. But I know that I'm disciplinary tool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So this book is just for nothing, basically. Yeah, yeah. No, well, tell tell me about the tell me about the the technical side of things because you know, I I love this this this kind of how how would I describe it? This this almost vintage antique look to to the images, obviously shot on film. Did you do any like a post-processing with it to add any kind of effects? I mean, there's so many, so many cool images. I I'm looking at one now. One is this one has got two people walking down a sorry, one person walking, I think the other one's on a bike, walking down a winding road. One's got a reflection upon, but which is a strong image in itself. But then there's this this thing that looks like an artifact from film on on the top of the image, which is in the shape of like the quintessential ghost shape, right? And it gives like this this texture and this kind of ethereal feeling to the image. So that's just one example of many of where I think kind of the the aesthetic texture of these images really kind of adds that that real supernatural feeling. How did you go about doing that? And was that a conscious style decision?
SPEAKER_01:Uh that's it's it's it's funny. I've been having this conversation a lot, and Jesse really hated, you know, dealing with all these negatives.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, really?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he hated the fact that there's dust on everything. There was, you know, like his hard hard negatives to scan. But there's there's a part of I think just my my personal being too where I just don't think anything's too precious. And I don't, especially art, I don't love like like I don't want to look at a book with white gloves. That's that's my personal preference. But you know, like everything deserves to be created and destroyed and ruined to me. Just like reality. You can't keep anything perfect. And so that's kind of just my personal not philosophy, but just like lazy fair, you know. But then also I love I I like I just didn't want anything to be pristine anymore. So I kind of pushed it to, you know, really some of it soaking the film in liquids, and you know, near the end to really give it even more intense feeling. But but at the beginning, it was it was just this, you know, kind of mindless, like I was just shooting, shooting, shooting, developing as much as I could, and I was just learning to develop my own film. So a lot, and I was doing it in my own bathroom, so a lot of it was you know just mistakes and and willing to make the mistakes, and then finding that that greatness in it, or you know, sorry, I don't want to use the word greatness, but you know, the stuff that really got me excited, and it was it was because of making mistakes, because I don't think this work would work as well if it was super polished.
SPEAKER_00:No, I I absolutely not. It uh like I said, it adds an even kind of more um visceral layer onto the theme, right? And onto the the the story and the the um kind of this n narrative suggestion that you're you're depicting in the book. So I think it I mean obviously it works perfectly, otherwise, you know, you wouldn't be wouldn't be publishing it, but actually it reminded me like looking through these images again as I as I'm talking to you, like it was so weird that I've heard some of your your kind of eerie stories because last night I woke up at like I don't know 3 a.m. or something like that and went to the toilet because I'm getting old. Yeah, and uh and I just had this feeling, like as soon as like the thing entered my mind, like oh what you know, I'm all alone in pitch dark, so I couldn't turn a light on because my wife's sleeping, and I'm just you know what it you obviously you know what that feeling's like, and it was just weird that I was speaking to you, and I never that never really happens to me, but yeah, maybe it's just your aura and your your energy kind of sending from the other side of the world.
SPEAKER_01:I hope not. I mean, I I make fun, I like I I tell I tell my friends that if I ever die, I'm gonna come back as a ghost just to prove it and just think messing with you.
SPEAKER_00:Well, there could be millions of ghosts trying to do that, right? Yeah, it's true. Yeah, yeah. I mean you would, yeah. Just to just to kind of round this this little bit off with the the blank notes is because I always thought hell notes have I lived in Hong Kong for a decade, and so I kind of have had a had a kind of relatively layman knowledge of of this type of stuff, but hell notes were not blank, right? So why or or am I wrong with that? Why the blank notes? Is it kind of like an offering to to the supernatural?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know what, like yeah, it's uh yeah, the hell notes for like actual, especially like now like fake money. Yeah, you can you can buy them with like actual you know dollar values on it. But I think also blank notes is like it's kind of like it's like when my mom for instance in the morning says a prayer and it's just messages going to the sky and they're you know they're just you know they don't have any val like necessary value, but it's yeah, I I it's it's to me it's just like smoke going into the air, you know, and and if it's not even if it's not reaching like uh deities, it's just disappearing into thin air and it's getting out of you. You know, it's like it's something that becomes flake because you're just gonna get it out of you and you're you're releasing it. You know, because sometimes that's that's like that's that's the most important thing, is like is like like whatever you're trying to like get out of your system and it just becomes nothing.
SPEAKER_00:What do you so other than so what does it represent then in terms of the these blank notes? Is it kind of is it something that's more personal to you? Is it like fear, grief, memory, or love, or is it not even that deep? It's just a kind of observation.
SPEAKER_01:I think I think for this book, it was specifically for for my family and asking for their just like to find a way for them to get past the and through it. There was there's there's a multitude of things that that came up, you know, quite in in succession. You know, every every everyone's fine, but it was it was a really difficult time. You know, my dad, my dad got ill and it was really difficult. It was it was really difficult taking him, you know, through chemo for for a year. And you know, as as you as you get to know your parents as they get old, you know, and they're you know, it's tough. It's tough, it's tough when they're when they get sick, and you know, they you know, your relationships change. And then you watch their relationships change with other people. And then uh and then my my brother-in-law got sick, you know, close to the same time. I have a niece and my ne uh nephew that I I love very much, and you know, it's uh in their in the book. Yeah, it's it's just you you know, you feel helpless, you feel helpless just watching people fall ill and then go through it, yeah. You know, and then when two little ones get affected, it's it's and and possibly have you know consequences down the road. And it's it's it's a tough it's a it's tough to to like take to know and then take with you. So that's that's kind of what a lot of it meant for me was you know yeah, just um finding a way to do it. Therapeutic in a way. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I definitely I definitely use art in a therapeutic way. So say whether it's drawing or whatever.
SPEAKER_00:And is this uh this book is it in in is it dedicated to to your family in that sense then?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it's definitely it's not written in there, but it's definitely dedicated to my family because uh I mean I I live I I live with my parents and and I'm very close to my sister and and my brother. And I you know, I definitely, if not for them, I I truly wouldn't be in this position, just allowing me to yeah, allowing me space and grace to fail and to try to find who I am, because there's not a lot not everyone's family is like that. And uh it's good.
SPEAKER_00:I mean the the the family centrality that that Asian culture is is well known for is is sometimes so extremely powerful and you know can also be devastating as as well as if you're if you're that close. But yeah, it's it's good to it's good to hear you have kind of that familial line drawn under the under the book. So it's nice to kind of piece that together. And you talked about identity and kind of knowing who you are. The other part of you that m many people may not know is that you're a chef, right? So you're kind of balancing your artistic side uh with a camera as well as your artistic side with food. Is have you always been a chef? Is this kind of been your your main career?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I it's been it's been my longest career. I I I started cooking at I started like working and washing dishes probably at 26. I dabbled, I tried to do retail before, and I wanted to play basketball before that. None of those things panned out. But I was always like decent at drawing, and that was kind of my entry point to being artistic, was like, okay, this possibly could be an option. But yeah, I I I didn't know what else to do, so I started washing dishes and you know trying my hand at at cooking because my mom's a great cook and I love all of her cooking. But I wanted like mac and cheese, and she, you know, she she would make really good mac and cheese with cheese whiz, but I needed something more with some noodles.
SPEAKER_00:She does. That's stereotyping, but yeah, yeah. Um so how how do do you how do you think that the the chef world and and making food has influenced how you make photographs, if if at all? Is have they intertwined in in any sense that you can think of?
SPEAKER_01:You know, yeah, I I think it's it's a a little bit. I mean, it's intertwined in just the also the the cultural beliefs of of offerings and servitude. And I think that it is it's a very humbling industry, so that helps. But for photographs, I'm not too sure. I mean the discipline definitely lends into photographing, you know, the the dedication I would because I do work long shifts 12 to 16 hour days, I could photograph for that long. Um because, you know, even if I don't get a single one, you know, I remember driving, you know, I would go to Yellowstone, look for wolves, and drive around for 12 hours a day and just not find anything, but still like have that feeling of excitement of wanting to still do it again the next day. You know, because yeah, being a chef, there's like loss of up and ups and downs, like and you're kind of waiting for the heat, you know. There's a there's lots of ups and downs, a lot of of a of lull, and sometimes it's like it's feeding into a habit because you really want that super high and super low. So yeah, in that way it definitely mimics photography that way. I mean, like as if you're going out shooting stuff that you know involves like chasing things, you know. Which at that moment I was.
SPEAKER_00:So not not a bad endeavor to go down to Yellowstone for for a few times. I mean, what a beautiful place that is.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but I presume you did find some wolves at some point. I mean, there's some some uh or these wolves that that are in the book or on your website, I think, as well. Are they they somewhere else?
SPEAKER_01:Uh no, the wolves are the wolves are in Yellowstone. The uh did. I did. I had some pretty good luck, but but it's like it's just so hard getting photos. But most of the other animals are all are all in Canada in uh in like Jasper and and uh Calgary and Vancouver.
SPEAKER_00:Cool. So now you're feeding the living as well as feeding the unliving.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's a great way to put it. Yeah, that's yeah, and it that whole like art imitating life phase really just come you know full circle in a way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Cool, thank you for you. So what what's what's next? I mean, now the book's coming out. How tell us about kind of the publishing process and the PR and kind of the the world that you live in right now as the book gets in people's hands.
SPEAKER_01:Uh it's a lot of me overthinking and being nervous. You know, yeah, it didn't your first book, it's a big deal. I know, I know. But it's like uh it's um it's just so surreal because you know, we was it's been in the process for so long, and you know, that's you know, you start by telling people, oh, this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen, and then four years go by, people are like, this is still happening. Is it four years? I mean it was it was like six to seven in its entirety. So I I remember telling people very early on, and I was like, oh no, as the years went by, I was like, I mean, I knew that it was happening, but you know, it was but uh anyways, yeah, it's it's it's answering a lot of questions. Like I I was doing some interview questions on on my laptop the other day. And uh it it's it's hard to get my brain all together to answer everything like the same. I don't want there to be any too many discrepancies between you know different platforms asking me similar questions. But the the publishing process has has been great. I mean, Jesse is very has you know was super hands-on and has helped me out, you know, immensely. I pretty much just had to shoot the photos, and we would talk about the different types of paper and the you know, the sizes of the book and the black paper specifically, and you know, and and the size, the the size we were we were we thought that it was imperative to to make it as big as it was, just to have the impact that it uh hopefully it does.
SPEAKER_00:And the sequencing as well. That's kind kind of kind of a difficult and subjective but important part, right?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. It's important to have a really good editor, especially when you're really close to your book, when you're working with personal, you know, subject matter. You can't really see what other, you know, what someone else is seeing. Which he is then incredible for like really really creating the narrative with the with the sequencer, because I was never I I wasn't very good at it. I just threw photos together that I thought that worked well. But going from page to page, you know, sometimes it takes someone that has a different, you know, a longer vision.
SPEAKER_00:How has this process changed you, I guess, as a photographer, but also as a human? I mean, the six years is a long time to kind of have this in the making, but now you've kind of seen firsthand how books are put together and and obviously like the the important decisions that you've had to make together. How has that enlightened you, if if anything, in terms of kind of the the photography world, but your own process as well as you know, evolving as a as a as a person in that respect, if it if it went that far?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, absolutely absolutely. Yeah, I think at first you just want success, right? Like and you want to make it in the world that you want to live in and make money in. But after a certain amount of time, you know, the the reality of of all these things, and we were talking about how niche of an industry this is, is that you have to do other things. So the dream kind of turns into reality, which reality you have to most likely you have to have another job. And you know, so it was it was kind of nice where you know I had a lot of time to settle those dreams down into a more a more realistic vision. And so uh I got all those feelings out of the way so that I could just do the work. And that was that was key for me to not get too lost into expectations or lofty dreams and just doing it because I felt like I had to. And and so now I just work, I just, you know, not even thinking about what project necessarily suits what, but you know, looking at every day if like you see something, just keep shooting, keep creating. Don't don't put it in a box just yet. You know, just do whatever you can, you know, and then see what it looks like after, because half the fun is just creating. And so that's that's a big part of what I learned was just to let go as much as you can. Yeah. Because something as personal as your first book, especially, you can hold on to it way too tight. And it really blinds you from continuing on because you gotta look forward, even though you have this this book coming out, or whatever it is coming out. So and then also just trying to see what else I can do. Like I love painting and illustrate, and I just did a very uh I did a short film, but eight minutes long, that that uh was very fun. It was very fun to ride the waves of creativity that comes with that freedom of letting go.
SPEAKER_00:Love it. What is the next? I guess going to Paris Photo, where I guess you'll you'll show people the book, and what is what is the next kind of couple of months look like for the for the book release for you?
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, so I'll be going to Paris for polycloppies in two weeks. And I'll be at the booth, uh the Trafford Book Club booth a few days for signings and and with with Jesse uh what the dates or whatever the dates, but I arrive in Paris November 10th and I'm there till the 17th. So and after that, I'm not exactly sure. I think that's kind of the end of the road for at least this year for me, other than a few media outlets. Yeah, exactly. Like I'm I'm very keen to uh to look forward to the next. I like I love that I get to experience you know being an artist for a few months out of the year, which is nice. So you wish you could do it more.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, is there is there any thought about eventually going full-time artist, full-time photographer?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I I would like to. I don't I'm not I can't I don't really see it at the moment as being uh a reality. But I kind of like that because it's that it's that struggle that keeps me humble and it keeps me like it keeps me thirsty for and it it keeps that drive hot, you know? And it keeps the fire burning even hotter. So there's part of me really just like not being able to do the work anymore, like physically. It's it's just very demanding, but uh yeah, it's it's it's something I've been thinking about for a long time.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, yeah, don't we all it's it's a difficult world to kind of move into full time. But yeah, I mean it wish you the best of luck. I mean just just a few more questions before we kind of wrap up. Uh for the for the tech geeks out there, just just give us an idea of what you shoot on.
SPEAKER_01:I shoot on a on an array of things. At the at the beginning it was a Canon 81. With I had a 600mm telephoto lens, an old school Canon. It's just like a fixed lens. But those continuously broke. So it just after a certain extent, I would just buy whatever cameras. Any anything, anything that worked, I would just buy and then just use, and then they would break, and then uh and then I would use toy cameras too. I like using toy cameras. I think they're I think they're fun. I I like I'm annoyed of them, of how they're built, and they're really hard to like rewind and things like that, but I I like I like the effects that it gives. And then now I shoot on a Canon Elan, which is a battery-operated uh cannon, uh automatic reload, automatic zoo. Uh so now I'm kind of just using for, you know, it's like especially for what I shoot, is if you're just shooting for moments, you you gotta be quick. So you gotta either use, you know, you guys just use something handy, right? Something that feels good in your hand, and you know, you know the buttons.
SPEAKER_00:Um then I'm guessing a lot of this is 35 mil, and then you know, you've you've you use some I guess your head torch and some flash as well in in in some images.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of head torch, a lot of flashes. Yeah, those I find those super fun. Like at first, I was you know saying before that I was really scared just walking alone at night. And then after a while, I'd start to get, you know, I started to get a little bit carried away. I'd walk in the forest with some friends at night with headlamps on and not know if there's a cougar that went across the train tracks and things like that, and all of a sudden you you you start thinking twice again. Right?
SPEAKER_00:Push to your limit and then it's kind of like then they come back a a little bit. Right. The fear of yeah, it's just the fear of I guess just fear, fear of death, fear of fear of trouble, fear of danger. It's like songs. Yeah, go on.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I was just I always I always had that like fear of the dark Iron Maiden song in my head while I'm walking through.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this this beautiful work kind of really does that feeling feeling justice. And I think maybe I've talked about it in kind of more of a morbid sense, but it's like this meditational mortality, right? And this we haven't really talked about life and death, kind of talked about the the world in between, maybe. But it's this quite accepting feeling in in the book that you you you illustrate so so well. Have you uh I mean, d is death something that is is comfortable with you? Have you learned anything about it through kind of I guess your parents and your belief system as well as as making this book? Has it even entered entered the frame?
SPEAKER_01:It it that has always all also been a very uh prevalent theme in my life as well. There's a couple times that that that I've almost died. I have a I I have a deathly allergy to nuts.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow, okay.
SPEAKER_01:So I can never come to Southeast Asia.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, you'll be dead as soon as you get the plane.
SPEAKER_01:So there's been a couple times where it's I've had the you know really scary moments, just being in the hospital, and then you know, the the one time that really scared me the most was I ate some cashews and I start, you know, I started feeling ill and I I called the ambulance, you know, blah blah blah. I'm in the ICU, they give me epinephrine, probably about my third shut up of epinephrine, and then everything comes back out, and it starts irritating everything again, and I start going into shock. And so they intimated me right away, intimated me right away, and then I was you know very close to passing out, and they shot me with another epinephrine, and then they drilled a hole into my shin. With a with they drilled a tiny hole into your shin, and you could smell your you know your skin burning.
SPEAKER_00:Oh god.
SPEAKER_01:And they they jabbed another epinephrine right into my shin. Um for it's because it goes like it goes faster straight into the bloodstream. Yeah. And then and then I I just remember closing my eyes, like all of a sudden there's six people around me, and then I'm I'm like closing my eyes, and then and then I wake up two days later. Or maybe sorry, a day and a half later.
SPEAKER_00:Did you have any weird dreams or kind of brain activity during those two days?
SPEAKER_01:No, I this that's the thing in my life.
SPEAKER_00:So death is great.
SPEAKER_01:Well, well, it's like I'm not I'm not afraid of death necessarily. I'm definitely afraid of dying and afraid of what ever like people closest to me feel if I'm if I'm gone. You know, I definitely want to be around to help out, but I'm not necessarily afraid of death because it's again it's it's it's not it's one of those things where it's we're all gonna do it. You know, I don't feel unique in that way.
SPEAKER_00:What a lovely, happy way to end the podcast. As as we talk about death, the episode dies. Marshall, thank, thank you so much for your humility and your your grace. And I absolutely love this book. I can't, like I said to you, I I I get my books delivered to the to the UK. So when I get back there in the new year, I'm gonna get my hands on this and really enjoy it as it should be enjoyed. So I wish you the very, very best of luck. I'm really happy for you. Congratulations, and yeah, look forward to seeing what happens from this and seeing more of you out there in the art world.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much, man. Thanks, thanks for reaching out. I had a great time. I hope uh yeah, I hope I didn't scare anyone too much. Not at all.
