The MOOD Podcast
In The MOOD Podcast, Matt Jacob, renowned cultural portrait photographer, dives deep into the world of photography and the visual arts, with guests from all around the creative industry, across all parts of the globe, sharing inspiring stories and experiences that will leave you wanting more. With years of experience and a passion for storytelling, Matt has become a master of capturing lesser-told human stories through his photography, and teams up with other special artists from around the world to showcase insights, experiences and opinions within the diverse and sometimes controversial photography world.
You can watch these podcasts on his Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay.
You can also follow Matt's work on his Instagram @mattyj_ay and his website: https://mattjacobphotography.com.
The MOOD Podcast
The Collapse of the American Dream - Photography as Witness: Bryan Schutmaat, E104
Bryan Schutmaat is a photographer, publisher, and quiet poet of the American West. Known for books such as Grays the Mountain Sends, Good Goddamn, and Sons of the Living, Bryan’s work explores the uneasy tension between land and people, myth and memory, endurance and hope. He is also co-founder of Trespasser Books, a small but powerful imprint shaping the future of modern photobooks.
In This Conversation We Explore
- Why photography feels so lonely and how community changes everything
- Building meaningful creative connections in a solitary craft
- The making of Sons of the Living and the stories behind the images
- Navigating narrative, ambiguity, and emotional truth in photography
- Why photobooks still matter and how sequencing shapes meaning
- The philosophy behind Trespasser and independent publishing
- Curiosity, discipline, and the struggle to stay creatively alive
- The American dream, the American West, and the reality between them
- How to make work that does something rather than pretending it does
- The inner journey of becoming an artist with a distinct point of view
Follow Bryan and his incredible work:
Website: www.bryanschutmaat.co
Instagram: @bryanschutmaat
This episode is sponsored by Strata Editions - use discount code 'MOOD' for 10% discount on their store - visit strata-editions.com to shop and see their collections.
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Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time. I'm your host, Matt Jacob, and today I'm joined by Brian Scutermat, a photographer, publisher, and poet of the American landscape. Widely known for books like Gray's Mountain Sands, Good Gone Dam, and his latest Sons of the Living, Brian has built an extensive and successful body of work that captures the quiet dignity and desolation of life in the American West, coupled with narrative suggestions of the so-called American dream, the impact of humanity on nature, and our ongoing devolution and relationship between consumerism, survival, and the environment, both on a macro and micro scale. His incredible images live in the tension between myth and memory, where the promise of the land meets the solitude of those who inhabit it. I was really fortunate enough to meet Brian a few months back, and it was truly an honor to hear in person how he sees the art of photography in all its grandeur, as well as the nuances underneath piecing a moving body of work together, and how he couples the translation of his own meaning in his work with this ambiguity and suggestive nature of how he wants the audience to see and interpret it. Although we would have liked to have done this conversation in person, of course, I wish I could do more of these in person, I feel it's still worth listening to, how a master craftsman approaches his craft. And in it, we explore his process, the importance and art of photo books, the moral weight of image making, and what it means to photograph humanity in all its beauty and despair. We also discuss poetic techniques and philosophies behind his work and how he sees the world. One of my heroes in the space is Brian, as I'm sure he is many of yours. So here is the ever humble and generous Brian Scooterman. Brian Scooterman, thank you so much for um coming onto the Mood Podcast. It's an absolute honor to have you.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Um we we've met before we met a few months ago, um, which kind of precipitated this conversation. Um we met at one of your workshops, which is so so fun to to be part of. And um yeah, that is this a new thing that you've been doing in terms of workshops, education side, like community building. Is this something that you've felt you know a passion for over your time as a photographer?
SPEAKER_01:I suppose it's come up in just the past few years. I'd done workshops just one-offs going back much longer than that, probably taught my first workshop in 2012 or so. Um, and then I'd done some here and there, but um, it's become a lot more consistent lately. And I've said it before, but photography is a pretty lone kind of uh activity, whether you're out driving around or in the dark room or in front of your computer. So with the workshops um and with these events that I've been doing in um Austin, which are these uh photo book Austin events where we it's like um it's a gathering uh uh and we talk about photo books. People who have new workout will give them this this audience um to uh to talk about their their books in front of. Anyway, it's a long way of saying that I think community and photography is really important because human connection is very important. And um, yeah, I just love communing with photographers and and having opportunities to to uh to witness work and to have your work witnessed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is interesting. You you I mean, pretty much every photographer I speak to mentions the this solitary pursuit that is is photography. And so they're kind of like yearning for some kind of connection, and whether that is through that through their photography, i.e. what they're photographing, or whether it's outside of that in terms of the community. Seems like with you it's a little bit of both. I mean, we look at your incredible work, which we're gonna get into, and there's there's that human connection there, right?
SPEAKER_01:For sure. I think guys like you and me, um, we we have a lot of uh human connection within the practice itself. I get a lot of uh rich experiences from moving to the world, from taking pictures. The camera's amazing because it's this license in a way to um ask people about their lives and to make those connections in the real world. Uh that being said, in addition to uh the long drives and the time in the field, and then in addition to the um into all that, there's all this alone time, just like scanning negatives or just you know, emailing people and doing the the the the the daily life things. So I'm I I found myself really yearning for um community connection, like you know, just talking about work and um what it means to to us. And um I've been trying to cultivate that more and more uh as you saw with the workshops.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think um the workshops were were really interesting to kind of see behind the curtain with uh with you I guess explain explaining is the wrong word, but at least kind of um elaborating on on your wonderful photographs without and we'll we'll we'll talk about this as well, it's interesting, but without giving too much to the to the viewer or to the audience, and to still allow this kind of like um poetic interpretation of of what we we think is going on or how we make sense of of the work. Is this kind of a deliberate ploy, I guess, that you think is really important in in photography or at least the kind of the fine art or post-documentary photography world in giving leaving a little bit to to the interpretation of of the viewer? I think so.
SPEAKER_01:I think um photography's uh all the things that leaves unsaid can be really powerful. So I I absolutely love the uh space for ambiguity, subjectivity, um the imagination that viewers bring to it, I think is really important. And if you have something too buttoned up or that is explained too well, I think that you kind of rob the reader of that, the viewer of that.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, sorry to cut away and interrupt, but I did want to mention the current sponsor of the show. And it's not often we have sponsors on the Mood Podcast, but I really did want to connect with this project and feature them as much as possible where I could. They are Strata Editions, which is an experimental photography project and store in Livingston, Montana, in the US, whom I had the luxury to visit when I was passing through a while back on a photography project, and I was blown away. They are primarily a photo book store and exhibition gallery space, presenting collections of photo books, photographic art, and furniture, all designed in-house. By focusing on visual and material work through a thematic lens, they offer a space to consider the relationships between photography, self, environment, and production. The works they share tell stories about themselves as well as how they tell the stories that matter to them. Physically, Strata Edition serves as a reading room, workshop, and exhibition space for anyone who passes through its doors. Online, their e-commerce game in the photo book world is legit, and some of the books in their collections are not even readily available for purchase anywhere else. They're either sold out or out of print or imported. The titles they offer have been made available directly by the publishers or the artists themselves, and their hope is that you'll want to share these books with friends and family and add them to your own library, and I highly recommend you do. I have a few of my own favorite books from these guys. I love them. They offer artist exhibitions and shows consistently also throughout the year, and continue in their own reflections on the relationship between people and environment in this region. So go check them out. They're great guys, excellent platform. Shoot them a follow. Use the discount code in the description to grab a 10% discount on your order. Do be mindful though, they do only ship inside the US at this stage. All right, back to the episode. That being said, there's there's a definite intent behind. I mean, we're we we'll talk about, I mean, you've got plenty of books out there, of which I have some here with me now. The proud owner of some black market copies. No, I'm not. It's like I know it's um we you know, look at all of your work actually, but uh um, especially your latest work, Sons of the Living, um, there is some intent behind narrative suggestions, should we say, and kind of like the the deeper complexities of of those layers and the story, the story that you're trying to l exhibit in in this work. So, I mean, there's how do you kind of balance that tension between what you want to say to the world, but also leaving that ambiguity that you think is important for the viewer?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I think that limitation is a little bit inherent in the medium. Um, we talk about narrative and photography, but um you can't really be storytellers in the way that um a journalist can be a storyteller or even a filmmaker or um someone writing a novel or any of the above. Like we can have in in large part narrative suggestion, narrative hints, but we can't be um storytellers in in any kind of complete sense. Uh unless we just caption everything and put it together like it's a some kind of like very um um extensive magazine article. I think uh there's gonna be all of these gaps that the viewer is gonna fill in. And sometimes that can be really um fruitful in terms of uh, again, like poetic interpretation, the imagination that people bring to it. There's like a lot of um, there's a lot of meaning between pictures, I think. I think that it's not just about, you know, everything that's in the image, but the atmosphere that's created that almost extends beyond um one picture to the next. There's like a world that's created that people can exist in when they're looking at a good photo book, I would say.
SPEAKER_00:And that world that you depict it often is the American West. What is it about? I mean, obviously you're American and you're from Texas. I think you're born in Houston if Houston or Austin. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I'm from I live in Austin. Um, and I was born in Houston. And Texas is an interesting state because it's um such a big state that it's kind of part of the American South and it's kind of part of the American West. I would say Texas is where big is where the South becomes the West. Um, so I was always drawn that way because of the grandeur of the landscape. Uh coming from Houston, I was in search of those kind of places because Houston, um, you know, even though you think of, you know, cowboys and country music and uh the rodeo and all that, um, it's it's a it's an urban kind of place and then a very sprawling suburban environment around it. Um, so growing up, I I really, you know, was seeing a lot of parking lots and billboards and strip malls and things like that. And uh by the time I was old enough to get in a car and drive myself, I was always like hitting the road and uh trying to to find more open places.
SPEAKER_00:What and how did photography start? I mean, you went to art school, how did the whole kind of photography thing come about? And what was the point where you was there a seminal moment where you went, oh yeah, this is, I mean, this is me?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know there wasn't like one of those epiphany kind of moments for me. I was always interested in cinema, so I loved cinematography and um how things were depicted in movies. Um, and I took a still photography course in college. And it was a slow growth. It wasn't like uh like an epiphany kind of moment or any kind of uh light bulb that went off. It was it was an interest that grew. Um, and then it it turned into a passion over time that um was something I could never let go of.
SPEAKER_00:And Sons of the Living was overtime, right? I mean, uh we can talk about my other favorite book, Grays of the Mountain Sens, but the the time span that you spend on these projects, first of all, is it like a deliberate book in mind? It's like, oh, I'm gonna go and I wanna you know create this and it to be a book at the end or at least a project, or is it kind of just see how it goes, follow your curiosity, and then tell me about the time span of of each of these projects because I think people will be surprised.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll start with Graze the Mountain Suns because it came out first. That I shot over the course of a year and a half. Uh I was in graduate school at the time, and um I had a deadline, I had to get my thesis done and all that. So I I did that pretty quickly, I'd say. Um, and then uh got it out there. And then I didn't mean for Sons of Living to take as long as it did. I I was hoping probably when I started I would be done within a couple years. But um, yeah, just I kept going at it and going at it. And I didn't shoot all that much. Uh I it's not like I was shooting for 10 years straight. It was like a couple weeks per year. And I think that benefited the work a lot because uh I think the distance between uh the the time that you take a picture and the time that you consider it for the book uh is a real benefit. I think stepping away from the emotional memory of taking the picture, meeting the picture on its own terms, um, without like that that uh that connection to it is is pretty important. And then just like living life and growing as a human being as you're making this big project is has I thought was very um very beneficial as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I mean, Sons of the Living was what over nine, 10 years. You must have changed, obviously changed as a person, changed as an artist. Did did you see much of that technique or that evolution in the work that we obviously don't notice, but was it evident?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, if you want to talk about technique and technical stuff, I mean the prints and how I was kind of processing uh images and uh printing at the beginning versus the end changed a lot. There was like a different way I handled tones um that I thought got a lot of better just because that's what we do. We we live life and hopefully get better at things. So just like the uh the visual nature and the kind of you know aesthetic of everything changed over time. And then um, and then also, yeah, just as a person who's moving through the world and the kind of things that we take notice of and the things we care about, I would say would I change from when did I start that? 2014, I would have been 30 years old, and then um, yeah, finished in 2023, just as I was about to turn 40. So, you know, it was like all of my 30s. I hope we change as people during that that decade. I had a good 30s, but um anyway, yeah, I feel like there was a different kind of curiosity I had by the end, or maybe little different things I wanted to say about the world, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, interesting. How much of that photography, or at least your photography in general, is about I guess photographing yourself or a reflection of you as a person?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, you know, John Sarkowski says photographs are windows and mirrors, and the mirror part is like uh is a very important aspect, I'm sure. You know, it's always so hard to say, uh, like the degree to which we put ourselves into our work, because I do work in a documentary tradition. I'm photographing the world outside, I'm wandering around meeting strangers. I'm not really eager to put myself in the work in any kind of, you know, um prominent way, but I know that it comes out. Like the way I see the world, the um the way it's filtered through my eyes and my heart and my head is gonna come out in a lot of ways. I think when I started the work, it came from a sense of anxiety around what we're doing with the planet and how we treat each other. So those concerns are evident. Um, and if I can, you know, speak maybe a little bit more vaguely, I would say that like the reason why you go to art is for point of view. You know, no one watches like uh um an Ingmar Bergman movie and doesn't want to see some of Igmar Bergman or you know, like there's there's reasons where we go to go to certain artists, and I think that is a point of view, and there's like a way of seeing sometimes that's like vague and hard to put your finger on, but um, yeah, I hope my work is my work and feels like really distinct.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean it's it's evident that there's some authentic curiosity in in the work that you do. Is the is it the curiosity that drives you, or is it kind of a disciplined or I guess there's there's there's both there. There's this balance of following your curiosity and letting the images then kind of speak for themselves through that curiosity. And that's kind of where the inner inner kind of expression comes through. Yeah, I think that's a fair way to put it.
SPEAKER_01:Um there is certainly curiosity. I've I've talked about this and the desire that you have as a photographer who works on the road to know it's in the next town, or to hear about the story of someone you meet on the side of the road, or to go just see what's inside of an abandoned house and like what could possibly be there. Sometimes you're really gifted amazing things. Um and then other times, you know, the the curiosity or that that drive to make pictures isn't quite there. I'm not like a particularly um disciplined person, but I I I force it um in photography because it always pays off. You know, it's like if you go and look around and and take your job seriously, then uh the universe will reward you time and again. Um, so whenever the curiosity isn't there, um the uh routine is and and and it benefits you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that's I mean, it's so apparent in in me and my work as well. And I know a lot of other people, it's it's you know, you drive past the place, go that'd be a nice, that'd be a nice shot. And then you just kind of keep driving past or or whatever. It's having that discipline, almost the discipline to follow that curiosity rather than just kind of let let it let it go by because it always pays off.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and like it's uh it's yeah, it's a tough thing, you know. I mean, I've I'm sure I've talked about this before, but like the amount of pictures I have not taken uh haunt me. Uh because I'm I'm I'm I'm like a human like anyone else, and I and I and I see the world and I I see its beauty and I see how amazing it is, and sometimes I'm not always prepared to take the picture, or um, I don't want to go through the social interactions to get to a point where I can take a portrait, or I'm too lazy to climb the hillside to to to you know get the get the stranger. Yeah, just there's like a million reasons how you can talk yourself out of things. Um, and and it's a little heartbreaking when you reflect on all that. Um, yeah, I'm a baseball fan. The World Series is about to begin tonight. And um, you know, I I think of that as like seeing those amazing pitches that hitters don't swing on and they won back, right? Like um just the perfect pitch and they see it as a ball so they don't swing or whatever. I'm sure that they're like that haunts the careers of a lot of uh of a lot of baseball players.
SPEAKER_00:So maybe we can use that tripe analogy, but I I think it says the difference is they get penalized if they they strike, right? So it's or if if they they they if for people who don't know baseball if they swing.
SPEAKER_01:We do too, but it's that it's like in our it's in our uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um tell me more about yeah, we we're gonna kind of have this theme. It's kind of um what's the word, this underlying kind of uh theme of Sons of the Living throughout our conversation, but um because it's just such it's just such an incredible piece of work. And I know there's there's uh kind of kind of more prints coming at at some point in the future. Tell me a just give us a kind of synopsis of the book first for people who don't know it, and then kind of want to hear about the subject or of the book and and why you felt that those specific subjects, specifically the people, were important to I guess document or at least at least focus on for the work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um the work is uh it's about the landscapes and people along the highways in the American Southwest, which is mostly desert terrain. Um you know, I took a road trip and took several more after that, and it's just it's it's in very simple terms, it's what I found along the side of the road. Um and there are themes of you know, car culture, fossil fuel consumption. And um within this, you know, uh industrial uh world I'm depicting, uh I I got interested in people who uh did not have cars who were hitchhiking across uh the country instead of being in those fires. Um and then, you know, from there as a theme, I got really interested in stories that they were telling me, which are not really um uh uh conveyed or told in the book, uh, but that drew me to these people, just like even if I couldn't make a good portrait, I was always interested in talking to people just to hear about where they where they were coming from, going to and what they were dealing with, or what thoughts they had, or uh, or whatever. So, like to me, it was like um, you know, we talked about discipline and curiosity and to to interact with these people who come from all these places and they're trying to make their way across the desert. Uh, it was just like this recipe for like a um the gravity, I guess you could say, toward them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, apologies for making you explain the book for probably the millionth time. No, it's great. Yeah, yeah. Um is it what work are you exhibiting with it at the moment? What's that? You're exhibiting some of the work of Sons of the Living or all of how many where are you kind of publishing this?
SPEAKER_01:I just had a show in Japan. Uh the work has been solo in solo exhibitions in Amsterdam and uh LA. Um I guess it's not up anywhere right now. Yeah, I have a new show coming up in Amsterdam, but it's all just like pictures of skies and horizons. Um not what I was doing before. Uh, and then I'll have a uh some color work at at Paris Phono um that's coming up here here in like a when is it? Uh I guess it's on like no November 12th, I think, when it opens. And that's work I did um, I think mostly in uh well work in Texas. Uh this this this National Geographic assignment I did that we turned into to an exhibition later. Yeah. Called uh Living Dry. It was what we ended up titling it.
SPEAKER_00:Living Dry. And and you because what what fascinates fascinates me with your work is this beautiful um partnership of landscapes with people, right? And obviously the kind of this this connection that we have with or on or against the land, whichever, whichever way you know we we see it these days. Um t tell me why that works so well and how it's why it's worked so well, how how you saw it work so well for for Sons of the Living, and and speak, you can speak technically as well, because some of the some of the images, and we'll we'll probably be putting some on the screen right now, but some of the images are so well put together technically, you know, thinking of the long exposures and the highways, this motif that that runs through the book, as well as kind of the this ambiguity of the portraits and how how you've sequenced the images to connect the human impact with the land as well as kind of this dream state world that we want to depict. So I think there was a question in there somewhere, but just out of a laptop.
SPEAKER_01:Um no, I just I'm struggling to think about even where to begin because uh it has been such a a big part of my practice is this commonality between land and people, uh particularly in the American West and that shared story. Um for me, uh, you know, when I made Graze the Mountain Sands over a decade ago, I was always looking at the way that uh industry, agriculture, um just um just from time, how it kind of um how it affects people and places. And I you know, kept seeing kind of all these metaphors for human experience in the landscape. Um, whether that's like a picture of a mine that's you know, a mountain that has been lasted and cut through, and then you you know you see a human being, and maybe there's some echoes of like the the the way a mine, you know, the the shapes or colors, and you see that in like a worker's face, and you see that they have kind of this kind of shared existence, and but they're they're like enduring. So that concept of endurance was always really fascinating to me. And it goes back to Dorothy Lange, really. I mean, she had the concept of uh, you know, human erosion. Um, she used the geologic term in the title of her book um to talk about like the shared story. Um that was during the Dust Bowl era, you know, 90 years ago or whatever. Um, anyway, so that was a really big influence on me. And when I got to the Sons of the Living, I was still looking for these um these similarities between land and people, um, in terms of repetition of shape or texture or just like things that echoed one another. That's always been really interesting to me and really fascinating from both the narrative and aesthetic place. Um, but then with Sons of the Living, I felt like, you know, I zoomed out even more to uh, I don't know, something uh spiritual, I would say, like um, like like the human presence in a world that's like really um kind of indifferent or unforgiving. Um and and what that meant to to as as a as like a as a as a metaphoric um gesture in the work, like we're making our way through this thing we call life, and um how do we do that? Um and you know, that's like the really broad kind of way to look at things or the philosophical kind of way to look at things. And then you can be a little more narrow in terms of like, well, here's like um, you know, here's a coal plant, and yeah, like um like the more uh like environmental critiques or political critiques. But I I hope to I hope the work does more than that. You know, it wasn't just about um the uh the the political, social, environmental concerns. It was also trying to address um something deep within us as human beings.
SPEAKER_00:Great um great explanation. I'm just looking through looking through I love it. I mean it's it just means so much, and there's there's so much interpretation there that I think you've left as well to to us as a view, even even as you're talking now, there is there's an element of this, you know, hoping it does so much more than basically what it says on the page, right? Which of course it does um tenfold. Even more so when this was the the privilege of of hearing you explain uh not explain, but kind of um recite some of these individuals' stories, and it just adds even more gravitas to it. And I think knowing knowing that you leave those stories out just is so powerful. You know, it's not like a documentary in the face kind of um biopic. It's just there there is that ambiguity that I think you you entirely intended that you you said you would that uh that once you kind of deep a dig a little bit deeper, especially if you you have the honor of listening to you talk about them, uh just add so much more, especially with some of these uh these individuals that you you met along the way. Uh tell me what's worthwhile for us looking at closely uh at the lives of these people that uh you know, you can tell us about these people a little bit and and who these I guess the type of people these were that you you know, um people traveling across what back and forth across the the the plains.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, oh that was kind of in the question you had earlier and I didn't address because it was a very panoramic question. But uh but yeah, you were you were interested in the um in the in the in the kind of people I photographed. And um yeah, I mean for me it's just like um I mean it goes back to endurance, what I just talked about, like like people getting by, making their way through. Um I just find a lot of interest in that and a lot of inspiration in a lot of ways. And then also just like um I don't know if it sounds I don't know if it sounds great to say, but yeah, like people who are living on the road, but like there's just a they have the there's so much interesting things about them. If there's a dude who's been walking through the sun all day, um, I just feel like the emotional and narrative um potential there is is gonna be really prominent. Um, so you know, we can't, as photographers, like kind of lie or side skirt that. Like there's something very interesting about hitchhikers and how they look and how they dress, or like how the the the sun and the wind has has affected the just even just the the textures of their clothing or um their skin or or whatever it may be. Um so yeah, from like from a narrative. the point standpoint from an emotional one from an aesthetic one, everything was was there, I thought.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I like the way you don't shy away from the aesthetics. It's like it's important. Form and texture and and how whatever something looks like, it it's that's what it's the target draws you in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We photograph we photograph the surfaces of things. Like and um it's weird. It's like, oh you want to photograph this person just because of how they look and the answer is yes. Like I mean obviously there's more to it but like that's what we're drawn to. So it's like um I just can't be I don't want to be disingenuous or like um I don't know what but but yeah like yeah we're we're we're interested in how people look. And that's the other thing. I mean even beyond um you know the the kind of kind of people I photograph are like the you know the the things I'm interested in about about them. Like I'm interested in human beings in general. Like I I'm not the first person who has said this, but you know, we will never tire of looking at one another. Whether that's just people watching in a town square or looking at the work of August or um Dean Arbus or anybody else like human beings are just infinitely fascinating and beautiful. And um yeah I don't think that that that portraiture will ever go out style.
SPEAKER_00:We we just love each other too much. But I think there's too much there's too much complexity. You know you take one person one human and you think how much they've been through how many stories it could be anyone right but the fact that you know you're meeting these people that have likely not just that aesthetic complexity but the you know the the narrative and the stories that they they are struggling with and is a struggle like a human struggle something that you're curious about as well kind of not attracted to but drawn to in terms of photographic yeah I mean I've how else do I put this um I I think every pe everyone's who's making art or photography or cinema or literature or even if they're journalists like yeah we should be drawn to um not struggle but like some kind of conflict I mean isn't that what great stories are about people who overcome something or endure something or learn something um that's what every every writer is going to tell you is you need the character to to need something or desire something or be struggling through something for it to have um the power to it.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah I mean I suppose I am interested in that and I I think um I think that's what moves us is like viewers and as artists is trying to figure all of that out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and I think um what also runs through your work and I've heard you talk about this before but kind of the chasing of the American dream this is something that that you're super interested in as well and it's something that me for for someone like me who's not from America and for the rest of us who who don't know kind of the intricacies of of the American system and the vastness and diversity of of the country you know we always get pitched or at least have done back in the day the pitch the American dream and you're kind of spotlighting kind of the truth or at least an element of of the truth would that be fair to say yeah I'm my hope is to do that through my work.
SPEAKER_01:So that like it's I've talked about like the emotional kind of qualities of the work or like poetic things but there is a totally uh political component to it. I don't really think of myself as like um some activist artist um I'm drawn to photography mostly for the sake of photography but because the world is such a place um it's going to be political in in a lot of ways um but yes I see my country I see all of the kind of ideology that was founded on going back to the conquest of the Americas um and the the the stories that were told to settlers going back to the expansion of the West and all of that um it was this very optimistic um uh it was a very optimistic narrative about people going out and uh breaking the soil and and and living prosperous lives and yeah I think I'm interested in um showing the realities um and the the people who didn't prosper perhaps and the towns that were left behind um because it's really uh in in quite stark contrast to the historical narrative in a lot of ways um and then just being an American in the present day and driving through some of these places that have been just utterly neglected uh is really upsetting. Do you get any critique for that or for for that kind of perspective? Well not really I don't know I mean maybe maybe I'm not talking to the right people yeah I don't know I'm sure there's some like real kind of like uh patriotic people who would want to see uh America portrayed in a light that isn't as uh positive as it could be but um I'm not doing what I do for them yeah exactly I think that's important as well to make sure that you're you're true true to yourself in that respect. But do you think that that that America then is still kind of chasing that version of of that mirage that you you described yeah I think a lot of people um people are I i and it's also there's like a kind of I don't know how I put it there's almost like a like an odd beauty to that kind of optimism too because it's it I always meet people um in circumstances that um that that it'll a lot of people are not doing well but then you talk to them they still have all this hope they have this thing repository of hope that um that that still exists and I think that that I think that that is parallel to some of the the concept of the American dream too.
SPEAKER_00:I want to pivot a little bit because there's there was something that um the obviously I took loads of notes when we we first met and uh you know as part of your workshop but one thing that resonated with me was making work that is interesting. Now that's obviously a really generic bland kind of word but I know you said you lose interest when the work tries to persuade you it's doing something that maybe it's not if that makes sense. Right? So that you're kind of forcing the persuasion how d A do you see this often and B, like how do us as kind of you know just whether we're hobbyists or or or youngsters trying to get into the the the photography world and want to make a book and stuff how do you how do we go about kind of discerning the difference between pus you know persuasion and and forcing or forcing that kind of narrative or forcing something upon a viewer. I think it comes from within honestly I think it was Hemingway who said he had a built-in bullshit detector and it's uh yeah it's up to you to figure that out yeah yeah you said you kind of lose interest when the work tries to persuade you it's doing something that it's not right can you explain exactly what that means I'm guessing it's like performing meaning instead of actually discovering it or you know coming from a genuine authentic place.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think that you know I mean going back to what we were saying earlier about photography and kind of its limitation I just think it's like um it's a little difficult for photography to do the things that people want it to do at times. It's just like we we've photography is again like not a great storytelling kind of um medium. We don't know what happens before a picture taken is taken or after it and then a lot of times I think as photographers we try to you know put all this emotion or um a conceptual drive in photography and sometimes the photography just doesn't do that.
SPEAKER_00:And we have to just uh be be more humble I suppose um yeah yeah I think that's do the inner work first right it's like comes from comes from comes from inside more than anything else um we can um when we when we talk about books itself I want to um kind of double click on why you I guess and I don't don't get if anyone I use this word but you've certainly a veteran in kind of like the the photo book world right you've been doing it for a long time you've got four books or is it five um well I guess like one of them is like a half because I didn't take the pictures on it but there's a book called Islands of the Blessed of Greys Islands good goddamn can wrote something yeah like four and a half four and a half yeah yeah um tell tell me about the photo book world and why that's the medium of choice or the output of choice in terms of the poetry of photography because you get to guide the viewer you get to build an edit in the sequence you get to pick the physical aspects the material and um you can guide people's eyes and minds and hearts to some degree I think through this through this form.
SPEAKER_01:And I have like a whole shield about this but in in a in an age of uh of of of uh imagery that is just so abundant I feel like having a book uh makes the the photos special um to to say that like in between these covers there's like um there's there's an intent there's an edit there's a sequence that I'm trying to convey something with and um yeah there there's a special quality to it uh otherwise you know we're just our um wading our way through this like total deluge of images every time we open our phone there's a thousand images uh and the currency of these have just has just become so diminished through the the sheer number of them that um I I've I've I've said it before and I'll say it again that I think photo books um at least for our little narrow esoteric world is the these are the savior of of of photographic meaning why do you think it's so narrow and esoteric because it really is um and you you know you look at these beautiful pieces of art and you think why does why is this not a bigger industry?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I but like that's that's like yeah it's just it's it's just the problem that we have to deal with as photographers because um it seems like the audience is very small. And that might be the case for obviously like poets or um you know other I mean poetry is even like kind of like the audience is even smaller and like that's even sadder kind of thing. But yeah like I feel like um people who are interested in culture like they've they've seen like they know these directors and they know these novelists but like when it comes to photography it's like a little bit more of a shallow kind of understanding. Well yeah we could we could go bigger because I mean I'm I was you know everyone was talking about the new Paul Thomas Anderson film and it's like being you know unanimously agreed that it's a good movie and it's like losing money because people aren't going to movies. I just think there's like a I don't know just some kind of big shift happening in how we um kind of take in art and culture um and just the audiences are so like I don't know what's the word um it's all so what what word am I looking for now? Like it's also not diluted but like um it's all broken off into a thousand different places. You know what I mean? Segmented yeah yeah segmented um just scattered everything's just scattered now yeah it's like it's you know back in the day it's like when I mean I think when was I was this a YouTube video I was watching I forget what it was but it was talking about the exorcist how that stayed in theaters for like a year and a half and there was a cultural moment that happened with that. Like it was like people were talking about that movie. So you know it used to be this case in terms of how you know culture was distributed that provided this kind of cultural moment where everyone was talking about an album that was released or a uh you know a film that came out or whatever it may be.
SPEAKER_00:But now that the internet has democratized everything and there's no real common center anymore we don't have those moments in culture the same way I would say and how does this play into uh trespasser so for those that don't know you you also own a publishing company with with your friend Matthew Gentempo called Trespasser and tell us a little bit about the background behind why you started that but also how do you see it from a kind of publishing standpoint in terms of kind of the industry in general but the money that goes into it and what we can get from it is it even worth it and without being too doom and gloom but um yeah tell tell us more about that world.
SPEAKER_01:Well you know I mean we're talking about like how the the the world has changed in terms of the distribution culture you know it's like um you used to have to go uh you know hug on the sleeve of like the museum curator or of the editor of aperture books or whoever it might be and and try to convince these people that uh you're worthy of their attention and that that they should give you a book deal or a show at the what uh you know the gallery or whatever it might be. Uh and again like because of the internet and because how everything has been democratized, there are these opportunities to just do your own thing and to carve your own path and that's exactly what trespasser is um we just wanted to do our own thing and just started doing it and then it it became an it became sustainable. So basically I had this small body of work that was kind of like a short photo book called Good Goddamn that I wanted to publish. Prior I had done Graze the Mountain Sens, which felt like this big effort and I didn't want good goddamn to be uh mistaken for the next big effort because it was like something more punk rock it was like um it was quicker. It was just quick and dirty and we just wanted to publish it in like a in a more um cathartic way I suppose um and so we started trespasser uh to put out that book initially and then sold two editions of that and then had the website in place had an audience we were building and started doing other books. But um but yeah it's an effort to take part in that in that new kind of um new world of of of the way things are being shown to people and distributed I guess. And that's a real mom and pop kind of effort.
SPEAKER_00:If you could then redesign how artists are supported because you know we talk about you know I I I don't know I haven't published a book but I speak to many photographers that that have and there's a lot it's a lot of work for both the publisher and the artist and um there's often not loads of money flying around to to make from it unless you're in the top brand scout mat top one percent kind of uh uh photographers out there how would you redesign it if you if you could how would you how would you redesign how artists are uh are compensated in in in this space if if that was possible on on a hypo hypothetical setup I mean if I had a magic wand I would make photography books as popular as like you know like like Instagram cards on the yeah it's just like um or whatever you know it's just like we just don't I mean as we just stated a few minutes ago there's just not a big audience for this um that we live in a in an economy that doesn't reward artists and and and um value them and I don't think that this is anything new I think you know back in the day you had the Medici so the artists could um could get by um and if you look throughout the 20th century it's like all these like amazing um writers and musicians and poets lived in poverty and obscurity um yeah but if I could just redesign it I would just I just want people to love it more and be willing to pay for it.
SPEAKER_01:When I drop like$85 on a book I feel really good. It's like I'm gonna treasure this thing. I think most people um who are not part of our little world aren't willing to do such a thing but I I am so don't even think about it. It's just no just yeah it's just an obvious right yeah yeah it's like this beautiful thing. Um but yeah I don't know I mean it I think that would be the um the goal is to expand the circle of interest um and I'm attempting to do that with the events I'm putting together um yeah and just the kind of work I'm making too I kind of hope my work isn't just for photo nerds um I'm I kind of hope it will appeal to different people um so I'm like hoping that you know the interest can be extended but I'm also like you know uh very aware of the fact that I'm selling my books mainly to other photographers and uh I mean I can whenever I see the orders come in on trespasser I know most of the names like maybe not personally but I've seen them before um you know it's only it's like a rotating thing of a few thousand people so it's just like it's that's just kind of what it is yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's like a cottage industry isn't it and it's it's even I I even with um even with kind of the more activists out there that that have a real kind of like a desire to help and change and they they just run into the same problem right it's an echo chamber they're they're preaching to their choir all the time and um you know I'm not saying that's that's that's what you're doing or what we're we're trying to do but how how can we try to help with that or at least not help that's kind of a bit of a sanctimonious term but how can we try and push this a little bit more is it is it more kind of talks that you do and I know you do these great photo book talks that you just mentioned um in your hometown is it it do you feel like there's a responsibility to kind of do those types of things and kind of spread the world a little bit more try and break into the cohorts and the niches that don't necessarily kind of um live in this world like responsibility is a is a grandiose work for what I do I don't know um I don't know I want that I really do but I I don't I don't know if it's possible but I I'm trying a little bit I was um but yeah I yeah I just think I don't know I I just think we all just need to try to make interesting things that like maybe maybe maybe it'll catch on maybe it won't I don't know I I or we'll just we're just doomed to this kind of uh little world and that's okay too I mean it makes me it makes me happy enough um I wake up every day with like a sense of purpose or something to do whether that's working on my own work or like uh uh contributing to other artists so um yeah I don't know maybe maybe it's enough maybe we need to want less maybe that the maybe it's like uh goes back to a life philosophy where you're not trying to like aspire all the time but you're just like happy with what you got so um wouldn't change anything is life as good as yeah yeah and it's not the only obviously like we're we're focusing on the kind of the photo book world of the photography industry but um you know it's prevalent everywhere these days right in the music you know you just talked about cinema and movies it's like it's just it it's it's changing like you said there's there's been a cultural shift and it continues to shift very fast I think so it's just a matter of like yeah just figuring out your own little place in the world and being okay with it if you if if you can and um there's a beauty in that as well there's a there's a real inherent beauty and and and fulfillment in that in itself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I'm trying to think because I just feel like the way everything was structured in the past um is not going to be the way it is in the future obviously with technology and with um access and again with the democratization of everything. You just need, I mean let's use music as an example. It used to be the case that uh musician would get a record deal and then they would write songs and tour a little bit and they'd get paid for that because there was an economy that provided uh money for their songwriting and there were tangible records that you could buy that uh you couldn't get for you know a monthly subscription on Spotify or whatever. Um now that that's all been diminished um you know the musician has to do everything like not only are you need to write great songs you need to like manage a social media persona that's sad. I don't know um so I'm not optimistic in a lot of ways but in other ways um it is kind of great that like if you want to do something you just go do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. How's your social media persona Brian?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know they just try to put cool pictures on the on the internet and you know people will like them or not. I don't know I like social media is something I struggle with a little bit because uh you know in terms of the holiness that I place on the book it feels so undignified to try to get people to uh to uh to to to make that leap from the screen to the page um but the reality of it is that uh you know only a tiny portion of people who look at my work online will see it um in a book form or an exhibition uh so that's a little depressing um and yeah it's complicated yeah I mean I think it's just uh these days it's a marketing tool whether you you want to use it or not and it can be can be useful but what I admire so much about about about you and the way you use it is you share other people's work right you're such a supporter of other artists and I think we can be say we like the the bigger names in the industry can be gatekeepers sometimes and that's what I love about how you carry yourself as well as obviously loads of other people in in in that sector.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah kudos for that but tell me more about the on the publishing side of things how is that if at all has that made you a better photographer or more thoughtful or more empathetic and and vice versa being for being an artist and and a publisher is it kind of how do they balance each other and has they changed you at all in the way you you practice man I really want to say that it's made me like a better artist and that looking at other people's work and considering it in these new ways or having to solve problems on like their behalf in terms of how a book is going to function makes me better.
SPEAKER_01:But I and I I love it. I love the whole process I love other people's work I love photography but also like just um you know trespassing was started like I don't know how long ago was 17 was it eight years uh so yeah just we put a lot of it's not even a big thing it's just like this little tiny imprint like it's so we're not like a real publisher but like the amount of time we put into it is mind-boggling and Matthew and I always joke you know it's like if we would have if we'd put like an ounce of the effort we put into publishing and some other more lucrative career path we'd be like multi-millionaires at this point. But I guess the point I'm trying to say is that like it just takes a lot of time away from the individual practice. And I just wonder what kind of discoveries I might have made or like what who I'd be as an artist if I was putting all my eggs in that basket and not spending so much time with all this extracurricular kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00:I think about that all the time haunts me. This huge opportunity cost, right? Huge opportunity cost for doing other stuff. Now that's just life in general we have to do other stuff but yeah it's you know diverting your focus away from photography is like it has to be really intentional and you've got to really love it. You've got to love it as much as the act of making a photograph almost so that you you don't how did how do you navigate that with the podcast of this statue? It's exactly the same as what you're just talking about with you and Matthew and and trespasser. It's it's um if I put the amount of time and and investment in terms of time energy money into something that I would be I don't know investing. Just anything anything that would be kind of more lucrative in terms of financial sense then yeah I'd probably be a millionaire as well but I I would be unhappy you know so that's there's no price um for that. So I I think um yeah it's I don't know it's yeah I've I've thought about just stopping the podcast loads of times but then I get to talk to people like you and and I get the odd message here and there from audience members who are super grateful that I do it and that's it. You know and I'm sure it's the same with trespasser and just photography in general like just having one person really resonate with something that you've created is like what a feeling that is.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I mean that's such an interesting conversation because photography is so multifaceted. You know we're talking about the economic difficulties of artists from all disciplines but it's certainly the case with photography that um it's it's difficult to to make it all work financially. An editorial thing I guess the point I'm trying to make is if I could do anything I with my life I would just go out and take the pictures I want to make you know the the documentary art kind of work. Like that's what I would spend all my days and nights doing is that but to just you know maybe as a photographer I have to do commercial editorial workshops you know work with making sure the prints look terrific and designing exhibitions and all this stuff. And I guess you know going back what you were saying about like the benefit from the podcast or from these different walks of life um you know we'd have to measure that in in response to to our time on this earth too like I I love editorial photography actually because even though I wouldn't um choose to do that first I'm always put in these situations with interesting people and I have problems to solve and it's rewarding and I get to meet people and talk to people that I was assigned to and that's um a blessing in a lot of ways because I wouldn't think to go seek those people out in my life but next thing you know I'm like wandering around the forest with a brilliant writer and I get to really have deep conversations there or like collaborate in these ways that I wasn't anticipating. So like all of these things that we do as photographers um that sometimes we think of as like a necessary you know labor are actually um very beneficial for for us.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and maybe not in the short term but I mean some in the short term and even if it doesn't seem apparent that that you could get something from it in the short term no doubt that these challenges and these exposures and these yeah like you said just the meeting people you just never know who you're gonna meet and what's what's around the corner and so I think if we can kind of see that with an open mind and with it with an optimistic mind, I think it's it will only kind of add more energy into into the photography um the act of photography itself. That's what I believe anyway. I mean you've got to try and put positive spin on on that kind of stuff because it a lot of it is necessary to to keep moving forward. I wanted to kind of stay on the publishing thing just for a c a couple more minutes because one thing that really kind of opened my eyes uh back in the day in terms of photography and then kind of the poetry and the art of photography it's one thing taking photo it's another thing like piecing these photos together and and and sequencing and and pairing and the kind of the rhythm of a photo book rhythm of a body of work obviously I'm not going to ask you to to kind of teach us that but sequencing specifically it's such an art form in itself how can for for those that don't really understand kind of what sequencing is or or how it can elevate a series of work tell us how sequencing and kind of the silence that you you talked about earlier between pages and kind of these stanzas that you do tell us how that can elevate a piece of work and carry emotion in it in itself um I just think that it can bring uh harmony to the body of work and really define the atmosphere um it in in in a way that elevates it like I keep coming back to that word harmony I don't know if it's like the
SPEAKER_01:Right word to use. But like whenever you um have a group of pictures that communicates a similar feeling or shares a kind of aesthetic or really uh builds a vibe, uh, you'll be a good shape. I I I had a student at a workshop recently that says uh I'm in the business of vibes. I thought that was like kind of hilarious and great, but it but really is true. Um so the edit does that, you know, if if you have like something a shared quality, and I would I'm gonna put it as like uh you know making an amazing album. Um there's a reason why something like Astral Weeks by Van Morrison is amazing, it's because like that grouping of songs like works so well together, um, from the lyrical content to the whole um the whole uh instrumentation to all of that. So to me, it's like it's it's really trying to build something to where the sum is greater than like maybe that one good picture here and there. Um it's it's just trying to it's it's trying to do something in in support of something bigger. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. And and uh one plus one equals three rather than you know, and uh the I was thinking, and we talked about this workshop, but when I first got this book, um this was one of try and try and put up on s on screen here. Oh yeah. This was one of the pairings that I was blown away by. And I think it's a good example of what you just talked about. Like individually, these images are obviously strong, but together uh they're just you know, it's just uh just incredible. I don't have the the uh the um I don't have the synonyms to really kind of do it justice in terms of me explaining how good it is, but that this would be a good illustration. Can you can you give us an idea of why this pairing might work um compared to the individual?
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I think it's like both I with that pairing, you know, there was kind of like a bold statement to put in it because there's so many kind of um there's things that repeat there, you know. There's like there's kind of these scratches on the wall. Um it's almost two on the nose. Is that what you mean? Yeah, well, I no, I mean I think I I I stand by it, yeah, but it was it was like it was I show Matthew the work, you know, whenever we're getting ready to publish it. And like he's like, this is the spread that's gonna be like I'm in or I'm out in terms of like the way of seeing. Does that make sense? Like that's kind of like this well, no, not him necessarily, but like the viewer. It's like if you if you if you are if you are convinced by this and persuaded by this pairing, then you've agreed to walk through this book in the way that it needs to be seen, I suppose. Um, but yeah, that pairing was I thought of kind of pivotal. It happens in the I call like I I organize all my photo books and stanzas, I guess you could say that's what I call them, in these like sections of like five to ten images. And then that stanza you have this like this pairing where it was like these ghost town walls, um like in this kind of abandoned house. And again, it's like the the writing on the walls, like kind of echoed the tattoos that this guy had. Um, and there's like these repetitions at X's, and there's like these um railroad spikes on the ground, and this guy had been train hopper, and then there's like this coldness of that room that almost looked like a prison cell, and the dude was uh he had spent a lot of time in prison, so I felt that there was like this connection there. But just in terms of the repetition of of of uh of form, of shape, of light, even like it was probably taken at the same kind of light. Uh I don't know exactly what the F-stop would have been, but uh in the shutter speed, but I bet that they were kind of similar. So there's like this consistency, and it goes back to harmony. Like, I really think that it's the photographer's job beyond just taking good pictures to harness all that energy and that narrative and those feelings into a form that is persuasive. So it's pairings like that. That, you know, I took one of those pictures in 2017, I think, and the other one in 2020. I I forget when, but like then you put them together and you build this like little fiction that gets to an emotional truth and conveys this harmony and all works together. I'm rambling right now, but uh but that's what I'm seeking. That's I'm like that's the kind of shit I'm looking for whenever I'm like um whenever I'm in the editing room. When you're out shooting, you don't you don't know what's gonna happen. You just go collect. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, good. Cause I was gonna ask that question. But yeah, I I think you're not rambling at all because it's such a such a diverse topic, and it's and it's quite subjective as well, right? It's like, you know, even even us when we're we're sat across the the table, kind of like reviewing uh everyone's work, and it's just people coming up with different sequences and they make you feel something a little bit different, and then something clicks, and then you know, that whole kind of edit process can go on for for months, right? And I I and I know it does.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think months is like a totally for a way. I don't know, like it's not because it's like like in photography, you're not bound by the beginning and middle and end, and the way that like a like I don't know. Like I I think of like a my filmmaker friend, it's like here's the edit. Like there's a obviously you can, you know, goodard said they don't have to be in that order, so there's like a thousand things you can do, but I think within like editing a film or like a novel or something, um, like there's a there's a structure and there's like a very kindological way that you put things together to communicate this thing, to tell this story, to get this feeling or whatever. And a photography, all bets are off. There's like just no rules. There's so much subjectivity involved. There's so many people who do things in so many different ways. Um, so you owe it to yourself as a photographer to like sit down and like figure out all the different avenues. Uh if not, then you're kind of betraying the photographer you were when you were moving through the world. You're out taking pictures, you're putting all this energy into it, you're putting fuel in the tank, you're putting film in the camera, you're doing all this shit that is, you know, uh it's an effort. And then um, and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, let's just like throw this together and get it published. No, no, no, no. You gotta sit down and like get that shit right, I would say. Yeah, it's it's it's incumbent upon you to do that after you've done all the legwork and taking the pictures. Like, why would you not spend that extra time after all, after all the effort? Because we're in an age of just like rush, rush, rush. Yeah, and that's that's the other, you know, big problem. We keep going back to this theme of how like the internet has changed everything. Um, and it's uh it's a it's a loss uh to think that like attention spans don't function how they used to, that like, you know, it's unlikely that you know there are all these great works of art that if they were made tomorrow wouldn't really have um have uh significance in culture because people aren't gonna sit down and read and figure out like James Joyce or whatever you know kind of work of art you want to put out there. I don't think that that there's the same kind of willingness because uh because of the way we kind of take in culture these days. Um but I don't want to get all cynical and talk about like brain rot and Instagram stuff. But but but yeah, shit's out shit's happening to us like in in a way that sniper out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, we don't we don't I've talked about that enough on my show, so we don't need to do that. Um so you talk, you you just talked about there kind of like what you're looking for when you're sequencing and pairing as a publisher, does that change? Like, what are we how how how do we get published by trespasser? But you know, hypothetically, what are you looking for as a publisher in terms of artist work? Or is it just like you get something thrown across your desk, you're like, oh, I I like this, and then your curiosity drives you, or is there a kind of a formula?
SPEAKER_01:Um it's usually I mean, honestly, um yeah, it's usually just like um it tends to be real world connections. Like if you know we see someone in in real life or we're it's friends, and I don't know, maybe that sounds like uh like favoritism, or if they're not like some kind of neatistic thing, but uh like if your friend does something amazing, you're like, yeah, I want to support you, that's what friends do. Um, so there's a lot of that, and then there's other stuff that just kind of like you see, and then it just doesn't leave you. Like there's work that I've seen that Trust Barcelona has wound up publishing that I wasn't planning on publishing when I first saw it. It was just like, wow, that's really amazing. And then some time passes by, and you see the artist hasn't locked in the deal with a different publisher. Um, and then there's it feels like almost like an obligation to do it just because uh, you know, I think it's so good. Um, so there's that. But um there are there are way more projects that are worthy of being published than than Trespasser can publish. We're such a small operation with like minimal time and attention and everything. Um, so if if we had clones, we'd be doing a lot more. Um, but yeah, like it's just making work that's like really terrific and just too good to ignore, I would say. It just comes down to that. And um and yeah, I and also like you know, the question you had before that about how I approach things in terms of like the pairings of the edit and sequence, it's like I bring my philosophy to other people's work too. So if you look at like Donovan Swallows, Langer, uh like there's a lot of pairings that are, you know, are ones that I kind of chose for that and really kind of I don't want to say like imposed my point of view or anything, but like it was I was very much influenced that kind of way of seeing and um trying to find connections in someone else's body work and the way that I would do it is like a very fun exercise, and that's how I know how to do it. So um, yeah, it's it'd be like, you know, um I'm always making music analogies or whatnot, but like, you know, if if if there's a band that records another band and uh you know the the a musician takes on a role as a producer, well, you're gonna like find the snare drum sound that you like for your band and maybe apply it to you know something else or whatever. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and music, music, cinema, poetry, all big kind of influences from the that you've you've drawn on with um with your photography, I guess, but just kind of how you see the world and and how what you want to put into to the craft. Uh poetry specifically, because I you know you talked about stanzas and how you kind of put images together and and you know create a book. Tell me more about the poetry side of things. You you you know, you reference Richard Hugo a lot in the tricking town, um, which I love was such a such a great book, such a great author.
SPEAKER_01:Um such a broken record with Richard Hugo. It's been just like so long. Um, but yeah, I just think it functions in really similar ways. Um, you know, in terms of again, like that lack of kind of like really concrete narrative or anything, and it's more about emotional suggestion and ideas and feelings. Um so yeah, I just um I mean um really love poetry, uh Sylv Levine and Ted Cooser and Jim Harrison and um yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you you brought that into your photography though, right? You've you've infused it in in your photography.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm not it's it's like a little cheat code too, because like you can you can you can use someone else's um body of work for inspiration and kind of like start building off uh Matthew did that with uh uh Arkansas poet named Frank Stanford for Jasper. Um so it's just um it's just the beautiful form. Um, but I I just think that like backing up just influence inspiration is so important in general, like not in any like very specific sense where you like make the actual like very direct references, um or even like uh you know it's it to me, it's just like putting good things into your body, into your soul, and then they just come out later on somehow. It's like you you you are what you eat. So if you're if you're watching great movies and um reading great stuff and listening to the good music, then it's gonna it's going to um it's gonna benefit your practice. Um, you know, you want to be influenced by stuff that's good. So it's that simple. Yeah. I love it.
SPEAKER_00:What a great title for the for this episode. Um this this was uh you know I think I I talked to you about this uh a few months ago in Montana, but you know, I was thinking about how to kind of I guess close the gap with other people and and kind of sharing those types of inspirations and and certainly when it comes to photo books and um you know critiques and books in general. So yeah, we we've I've got my my first photo book uh I guess event um like not even photo book, it's just a book review. Um so yeah, that thank you for that. I don't know why I mentioned it, but it's kind of exciting that we can.
SPEAKER_01:Wait, you're in the case.
SPEAKER_00:I started we started a book club. So after Montana, I was like, and I was speaking to Andrea about this. Like, I just I I need more of this in my life. So you're talking about influences, inspirations of which of which I have many, and you being one of them, and just have like having infusing that into kind of what I put out there, right? But also sharing with other people. So it started the an online book club, so we're just gonna kind of talk about a book, and then kind of a few weeks later we're gonna do a photo book, and then a few weeks after that, it'll be a photo critique, all online. I don't know how it's gonna work, but it's interesting kind of to to to experiment with that. So I love it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I stole the um photo book Austin event from um photodoc um book club in the Netherlands. That was something that Rob Hornstra had founded and kind of passed on the torch to other people. I mean, he's still involved in it, but like um, but yeah, like it's um it's it's yeah, I just saw him doing this in the Netherlands. And I was invited to one back in like forever ago. I think it was like 2018. And then I was like, damn, this is amazing. There's like hundreds of people out here to listen to people talk about photo books. So I think anything to cultivate that is really important. And we could probably, you know, put that into another conversation about community more generally. I mean, like in the States, we don't have what they call the third spaces, and like uh I think that there's like that book in the 90s that came out called Bowling Alone, talking about how like the lack of community is really affecting society in negative ways. So to me, anything to get people together with shared passions is cool, whether you're like, you know, you know, really into sports or art or whatever it is. So I encourage it, man, keep the keep the photo book clubs alive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't think I think community is actually everything. I think you know, going back kind of bookending the beginning of the conversation, we talked about kind of photography as a solitary solitary pursuit, but that's just with a lot of things. Everyone's going through their own life and their own struggles and just having having, you know, there's no reason that number the number one most important thing of a of a dying person on their deathbed through thousands of studies is their connections, their human connections. Like we we we need to have that in our life. And I think not not only is it good for the soul, it's just good for our craft. Like we we learn so much from other people, and and yeah, going back to the influences and inspirations, we can infuse that just even in our subconscious, let alone that conscious. So tell it tell us a little bit more about that photo book talks that you do just for people who might be in the area or how often you do it and how what the format is.
SPEAKER_01:Well, we've um we we stole it from PhotoDoc, the book club in the Netherlands. So uh I would point people in that direction, but it's kind of like a think of like a uh like an old late night talk show where like three different guests come up and talk about their new movie or comedy special, whatever. But in this case, it's just all photo books. So it's like three guests typically who come up and talk for about 20 minutes about their book and they're interviewed and it's back and forth, and then there's a QA. Um, it is it's wonderful. Uh, we've been doing it, uh we try to do it between two and four times per year. Um, we've been doing it since February of 23. Um, but you know, it's like it's not just about in all in Austin, it's not just about the people um, you know, on stage talking, like in the seats next to one another, there's just so much great talent in Texas. Um, you know, Eli Durst and um Raheem Fortune and um just like this great cast of characters here. So even if they're not there talking about their book on stage that night, there's uh there's a community that's being cultivated. Uh, people are talking to one another. And um, I'm really excited for it. I think I think good things are happening in in in Texas right now between kind of the um, you know, the major league institutions in in Houston and Dallas Fort Worth that uh, you know, have these time-honored collections that are doing interesting things, and then kind of like the more kind of DIY punk kind of you know, youthful community out of Austin that's just like you know, it being kind of scrappy and putting these kind of fun things together. Um, I have a lot of faith in the direction of photography in Texas right now.
SPEAKER_00:That's cool, that's great to hear. Tell me, um, I just want to kind of I know we're pushed for time a little bit, so we're gonna wrap up, but I uh I won't um we've got the World Series approaching, so we've gotta we've gotta we've got to keep it.
SPEAKER_01:It's cool, man. I already the dodgers are inevitable, so uh we we all know how the story is.
SPEAKER_00:Um uh yeah the the the nerds from my audience, uh and I say that with love, um, what would love to know about kind of the the technical aspects and we'll so I want to touch upon that before we do. Um one thing that really struck me with Sons of the Living was the power of the black and white um aspect. As I think most of your work is shot in black and white anyway. We can touch upon that. And then just doing research on this, I I found that Robert Frank quote that I think you quoted, you've quoted before as well. Um uh black and white are the colours of photography. To me, they symbolize the alternatives of hope and despair to which mankind is forever subjected. Well, a lovely kind of poetic sentence. Um, why was black and white was it this that kind of really inspired you, or why is black and white such a central part of your aesthetic?
SPEAKER_01:Um, so I use I've used that quote in the past to kind of justify the toys. But uh no, I mean it for me it's like a visual thing to be yes, okay. We can talk about the philosophy of it, we can talk about the you know, hope and despair, um uh darkness and light, whatever. But like at the end of the day, like I was photographing suns in the desert, and I didn't want to just shoot in the mornings and evenings. And if I were to shoot during the day, it would kind of have to be in black and white because I don't like blue skies, I don't like that really harsh light. Um, so the geography kind of dictated it. And you know, going back to the what we're talking about in terms of edit sequence creating harmony, black and white is so much more forgiving. Like you can you can you can put things together that you wouldn't put together if they were colored because there would be these um these uh these problems with the palette kind of coordinating. Um so black and white, in terms of tone, color, like mood, um it just it it it it it will provide like a lot of opportunities that colored out with color, it has to be so dialed in um in terms of how the pictures function alongside one another, um, that that I I find it like a little more frustrating. Um, but I you know, uh I'm a nerd in in a loving way, as you said. Or just like kind of a freak when it comes to this, where it's just like, yeah, notice that it really bothers me. And I'll look at other books and I'll just like kind of be baffled why people make decisions that they do, or like my eyes just work in like a particular way when it comes to how um pictures look alongside one another. So um, you know, I I yeah, I'm probably just really picky.
SPEAKER_00:Why why did you um not want to shoot suns in softer light? Was it just to kind of kind of sh, I guess I don't want to use the pun, shine a light, but like have that harsh feel to to the the the narrative suggestion?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there was that. I mean, I wanted to say something about the heat and about kind of the endurance it takes to get across the desert. But I think if you actually look at the book, there aren't that many pictures actually taken in that light. Um, so that it still is the case that I'm I'm in love with the Dons and Dusks as I always have been. But like in color work in in the Rockies, uh um, you know, my first book, and then also um in Texas Winter where it was overcast most of the time with with other work I've done in County Road and um good god damn. Um, like you can shoot at all kinds at all times of day because it's because of the weather and the geography. Um so it was just more like an economic thing, or just like I'm gonna go out and spend this time, I want to use it. Um uh but but yeah, I do think that there's something about the harshness of light or like that quality that's compelling. But uh but still when it came down to the edit, I was still like much more into like that half-life kind of kind of yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And uh for those that don't know, you shoot on large format. Tell us about your setup.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, if I had the same camera the whole time, I bought a second hand in 2010. Um I took a large format workshop with Richard Vinaldi in 2009 and then bought a camera in 2010. It's a Shamini 45N1. Um and it's just a you know, it's a life proof box, and then you put lenses on it. That's how there is to it. The lenses I have uh an old Xenotar that's like a 3.5 because I was you know, studying with uh Richard and Alex so Richard Rinaldi and Alex said like I wanted an 8x10 look, but it was never on the cards to afford that kind of uh setup. Uh now I mean, geez, I don't even what's probably cost like 50 bucks just to get one picture back after it's all said and done with 8x10. So that's not happening. Um, but yeah, um but uh I wanted it to look like I was have having 8x10. So I um I went with the fast lens to kind of give that look a 4.5. And then for landscapes, uh it's like either like like a I think I have a 105 in the 90, and then yeah, just kind of a variety of lenses I've accumulated over the years and the right tool for the right job. Mostly like Fuji9. What does that do to you?
SPEAKER_00:What has that done to your process?
SPEAKER_01:The the variety of lenses, or what do you mean?
SPEAKER_00:No, the the camera, the kind of this the slow process of shooting with a four by five.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I mean, it makes it I mean, I mean, there's so many things I could say about this, about that slowness. Um, you know, about how deliberate you have to be to not want to like waste film or time um getting into the headspace. But like honestly, if I could do it all real easy, I probably would. You know, that's uh I don't know. Like I'm I I've I'm tempted to to say that it's like there's something about the medium that really benefits you, and maybe there's some truth there, but uh it's really I just want the benefit of like the the the uh the big negative and the and the beauty of film. Um and if I could do that with like a little clicker, you know, little little little whatever, I probably would. But yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean, there's something kind of romantic or fun about you know wandering around with this like big the big bellows and dark cloth and doing the whole thing. It feels good, it's fun.
SPEAKER_00:Probably get a different uh I mean, even when I get my tripod out with a medium format, it's just something it's something for the it's centered with portraits, and if you're you're kind of uh working with with someone else, it it kind of allows a little bit more um interest or a little a little bit more openness from them because they kind of realize that okay, this is a this is different, this is just not an interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think that the tool itself is very disarming. I think that like the look of a large format camera can persuade people to give you more time and uh effort because it seems like you're doing something more significant. Yeah. Um so like yeah, the tool itself and kind of its impressive qualities, uh just in terms of like how it kind of commands attention in a room or uh out in the world, uh is is is a is a big help. Um but then it's like sometimes I'm just like, well, I mean I mean, you've seen me, I'm just around with focus and it's like it's just too much sometimes. I wish I wish it was easier, but that's that's part of it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's yeah, it's part of it. Uh I I who is it? I think it was Christopher Um who was talking about how sometimes the work doesn't isn't satisfying enough, it's not difficult enough.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, we'll recap that because uh I mean it's such a hilarious concept, but but our my good friend and who I introduced to to Christopher, he's a landscape photographer, and um he thinks that pictures that you don't have to like walk too far for are like if you just find the landscape on the side of the road is what he was saying, that it felt like uh the picture wasn't as good because he didn't put enough effort into it. Yeah, which I think is like such a funny thing because no one's gonna know the f difference. Like there's there's no way that people are gonna see pictures of like you know, this tree that's fallen over versus that tree that was fallen over that you hiked 10 miles for um on the on the surface of the picture, it's gonna it's gonna read the sand. But yeah, I guess there's something that's saying with that with the camera too. Like I I can so we keep talking about editing and like deciding what is important. Um, yeah, I'm probably much more inclined to choose a picture taken on film than digital because I spent more time with it and considered it more, and it's like gonna be more prominent in my mind. Um so yeah, there's like an investment that um kind of has returns just based on the time you put in around with a large camera.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's funny that yeah, it's really funny. It's the same with everything as well in life. It's like, well, if it's not a challenge, then well, I get is if it's too easy, then what's the point, you know? Um, but that's just oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that goes into to a big conversation about life, right? Like how much of our happiness and satisfaction is on the other side of difficulty. It makes it all worth it. Like if you could get uh you know teleported to the mountaintop, that's no fun. You know, it's like you want to climb up it. That's like the this is uh the point of life, I think. It's like it's it's always taken well struggle, yeah, but also um a search for for fulfillment. And it's like such a it's it's life in general, but it doesn't photography too. Because photography is like the perfect way to to kind of illustrate this path in life where it's like you're striving for something, you want something to happen, but you don't and you want to get there, but like when you do, it might not give you the satisfaction you think it will, but how am I put I'm not making any sense right now. Okay. You want to strive for something, but you never really want to get there because you don't want the journey to end. But you also want it to end so you can actually be fulfilled by it, even though you're not sure it will be fulfilling. That's like life, right? Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, uh the the you know, the the the the Buddhist in me just talks, he always thinks about uh desire being the the cause of all suffering, right? As long as you're desiring something, you're gonna be suffering until you get it. And then even if you get it, it's gonna be the next thing, right? You talk about, oh, we we achieved that. Okay, well, I want to just start again and do a new challenge and then struggle through this. And if you don't feel like you're struggling, then you don't feel like you're progressing or moving or going towards happiness. Whereas like just in a split second, you can just sit here and just go, I'm just happy, like I can be happy in any moment in any situation because life's always gonna throw stuff at you. Same with photography, it's like I have this all the time. It's like I've been out shooting for the last few weeks, I haven't looked at any of the images because I love the act of photographing. It's like, oh like if I look at these images, it's kind of finite now and then I've got to edit, and then it's like, oh, it's just like uh I just want to go and and I know I've got a shot. I know I've got a shot that I really like. I'm kind of scared to look at it because it's like that's now it's kind of complete and it's almost like, well, I've done that, and then it's on to the next thing, it's on to the next thing, it's on to the next thing. So it's always kind of like this struggle in play, right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's like I don't know. Maybe my mind is kind of drifting here too, but like what you're describing too, it's like kind of like this war, this, this, this brain chemistry reward seeking the photography will because you're always chasing something, like you want to get the shawl, you want to like get that little spike of whatever like neurochemistry it is, I don't know, the the the science board or whatever, but like it's clearly we're rewarded by that as photographers, and it's like this thing that never ends. Like you can just always do it, and the minute you sit down the look what you have, you can maybe get like you can get more out of it because if there's like evidence of it and feels good to witness it, but um yeah, the act of photographing, there's so much there, like just in terms of like that that search, that kind of like desire. Um I don't know that had go how that goes back into the Buddhist thing you're talking about, but um but yeah, like there's like good desire.
SPEAKER_00:Ambition is different from desire, I think. I think, yeah. Like um it really yeah, you're right. It's obviously nuanced. Um, and we we're we're obviously not gonna progress as society if we all sit around meditating on the top of a hill, not doing anything. So yeah um you know there there's there's there's a reality uh attached to that but yeah I think the principle is is is a good one to kind of at least be aware of like constantly getting up and and wanting something uh then that's dangerous in in my opinion. Um but you know not that I've got my sh together at all. I'm always wanting the next lens or the next guest or the next stat or the next you know paycheck or whatever it might be. But um I actually fasted with I did a 72 hour fast at the beginning of this week and kind of like uh we talked about challenges and just kind of like testing yourself but uh you know getting through that was awful I I absolutely hated it and uh but it was good to autophagy near it was just a like a yeah autophagy in that kind of the final day the final 24 hours I really wanted to get to that and I tried a few 72 hours once before never got to 72 hours always like got to the end of 48 hours like I'm I'm done like I can't it was really interesting to kind of like see see that attachment to food. I can't I don't know why I'm mentioning fasting but um it was because of the struggle the yeah the the struggle it's like just having testing yourself but having getting to the end of that feeling like you've achieved something it's like it's just it's just a weird um weird weird concept but um yeah let I I digress completely but uh we've we've we have to wrap up um I wanted to end with with one question I guess having seen your work for so long and and you being in this uh space and and I haven't asked you for your definition of success because it's a little bit trite but from someone who's uh I guess looking out in and and seeing you as a successful photographer um which by all means you are how do you maintain that curiosity and and you can I I guess you can kind of talk about what you're working on if anything at the moment if if you if you allow us to hear that but I you know there is there a point and we just talked about this like you achieve a certain level and set whatever your kind of targets and goals you might have as a uh in a in a personal as well as professional sense. Do you ever kind of see that curiosity waning or at least that drive to keep kind of pushing yourself and and creating new pieces of art?
SPEAKER_01:I mean it's a difficult question to answer right now because I've been a little stagnant and I'm actually not in a great place right now creatively because I've been um doing a lot of things aside from being out working in a really meaningful way. I've been you know publishing books and doing workshops and commercial work and all this kind of stuff, which again is um very satisfying in its own way but if I could choose to be anywhere I'd just be out and then in the middle of nowhere to photographing what I really want to photograph. So it's a little tough for me to say right now because I do like anyone else feel that wane um over time uh and and um I just I think it goes back to discipline and knowing that in the future I'm gonna designate some time to really go out there and make these discoveries. But uh but the drive like as you know we're talking about earlier about success or whatever it's like really not the outward things all that fate um you know being awarded something or selling a lot of books or having an exhibition at an institution that's like special is um is not as meaningful as like the act of actually making something that you know is good in the moment. It always goes back to those feelings that's more of a kind of an internal feeling or like how you feel about your work in private is really the the the most important thing. And I always talk about Richard Hugo so I'll continue talking about him but he said you know this the the markers of like a true successful piece of work is um or body of work or your path as a poet in this case was that you wouldn't trade your work for anybody else's. Not because you think it's the best but because uh it's yours and like everything you put into that um is it's shown something back to you. So that's um that's kind of like how I I decide if my time is good spent spent doing what I do.
SPEAKER_00:It's like I wouldn't trade my work for anyone else since it's mine.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What a great way to end. Thank you so much Brian um for being so humble and so open and so flexible we we we love you and we really appreciate um you spending the time to to chat about your work probably for the millionth time. So you're good man thank you so much but yeah much love right back to you it's it's been a great conversation and I I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:Really appreciate you take care Brian hopefully see you in March.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah let's hope cheers
