The MOOD Podcast

Why Most Photographers Never Begin - Wesley Verhoeve, E107

• Matt Jacob

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In this episode of The MOOD Podcast, I sit down with photographer, writer, and mentor Wesley Verhoeve for a grounded conversation about photography process, confidence, and learning how to make meaningful work without waiting for permission. 

We talk about why so many photographers struggle with self-doubt, why overthinking stalls creative progress, and how showing your work and sharing your process can demystify photography and make growth feel possible again. Wesley reflects on his approach to learning photography through participation, not perfection, and explains how confidence is built by doing, not by being 'ready'. 

We also explore the philosophy and process behind Wesley’s photo books 'NOTICE' and 'NOTICE Journal Vol. 1', including how routine, attention, and slowing down shaped both bodies of work.

In this conversation, we cover:

  • Why process matters more than talent in photography
  • Why photographers often hate their own work
  • How overthinking blocks creative momentum
  • Where to start when photography feels overwhelming
  • Showing your work as a way to build confidence
  • The role of community, feedback, and shared growth in photography
  • Making photo books and long-term personal projects

Follow Wesley and his  work:
Website: wesley.co
Instagram: @wesley
His Books: wesley.co/shop

__________________________________

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Thank you for listening and for being a part of this incredible community. You can also watch this episode on my YouTube channel (link below) where I also share insights, photography tips and behind-the-scenes content on my channel as well as my social media, so make sure to follow me on Instagram, Twitter, Threads and TikTok or check out my website for my complete portfolio of work.

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Matt Jacob :

Welcome to the Moot Podcast. I'm covering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity one frame at a time. I'm your host, Matt Jacob. Thanks so much for joining me again. And my guest today is Wesley Verhuva, a photographer, writer, mentor, and improvisational comedy performer whose work is grounded in attention, curiosity, and process. Wesley's practice resists speed and spectacle, instead, favoring noticing, returning, and allowing ideas to unfold over time. Alongside his photographic work, he writes extensively once per week on Substack about process, always sharing his own thoughts as well as others on how to improve people's processes and craft. He focuses on discussions surrounding creativity, learning, and the lived realities of making work, and has guided countless photographers through mentorship, with an emphasis on clarity, patience, process, of course, and self-trust. In my chat with him, we talk about process as a way of thinking rather than a system to optimize, about writing and publishing as extensions of photographic scening, and about his books, Notice and Notice Journal One, as quiet, deliberate counterpoints to trend-driven culture. We explore ADHD and time-blindness as creative conditions rather than limitations, the difference between starting and beginning, one of my favorite topics, how improvisational comedy has reshaped his relationship to uncertainty, and what it means to remain a human photographer in an era increasingly shaped by expectations, consumerism, distractions, and automation. So now I bring you Wesley Verhoover. Okay, Wesley Verhoover. Welcome to the Moo Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.

Wesley:

Uh thanks for having me.

Matt Jacob :

Um Wesley, I've been a follower and a fan for a long time. We're going to get into kind of the the multidisciplinary artistic outlets that you you bring to bring to the world, bring to us as an audience. Um one thing in in all of my kind of time, at least knowing you from afar, um, and this kind of plays into your your substack, is it's called process, right? And this word process keeps coming up everywhere I look with with you and and your wonderful work as well as your wonderful writing and the way you just talk about photography. So let's start there. This word process appears everywhere, right, in your world from photography to newsletter. So what is it about process that we should be caring about? Why is this this word and this this uh philosophy so important to you?

Wesley:

For me, um that's where I find the joy, you know, the the process of making something. And I think um in the past, photography, uh as many other creative disciplines, especially on a professional level, have been uh somewhat opaque and mysterious and and through that intimidating for people. And uh I want to show not only my work, but also the the process of making it so that I can, by showing it, encourage other people to feel that they can also make something that they can be proud of, whether it's uh uh their first little zine or a photography project or a writing project. So show the process so that people can see all the steps that it takes and each individual step being absolutely possible for anyone else to do as well. So demystifying photography as an industry, as a as a craft is kind of part of why I do that.

Matt Jacob :

Do you feel like this is a common theme, or certainly was when you were learning photography, and if so now, like if you can give us a bit of a background, I guess, into how you started with photography and when this kind of um opportunity but kind of problem that you saw with I I guess gatekeeping and and not quite seeing the process of so many of inspirations out there. How did that all begin in in photography for you?

Wesley:

Well, I was spoiled because my father's a photographer. So for me, there was nothing that was ever really gatekeep in that sense. Uh, you know, I grew up playing with my with my Legos in the red light of the dark room uh at my parents' house. So it's it was all right there in front of me. And and it was more of an osmosis process that than it was an educational process. I wasn't formally trained uh as a photographer. Um and so I didn't really ever have to deal with it. But as I entered into the world and became a professional myself, I did notice so many other people who had so many questions and were frustrated with the fact that it was so hard to find out. And of course, you can you can go take a uh a course or you can go to photography school even or art school, and and there's value to that as well. But I thought um since I was self-taught, why not show how I got to the things that I make.

Matt Jacob :

So if you or when you speak to budding photographers now, where do you advise them to start? Is it kind of the self-taught route, you know, with with YouTube and workshops and books, or is it more of a formal education that you you might recommend?

Wesley:

It really depends. Like I I I think there is value to a formal education, but it's um it's it's not relevant for everyone. Uh I think learning on the job is the best kind of learning. And so um when you if you're passionate about photography or filmmaking or writing or whatever the the creative outlet is uh that you'd like to get better at, I think my main advice is to just make and share and make and share. And so um I've done quite a few talks uh about this piece of advice that I got from Corinne Simpson. She's a friend and mentor of mine, and she um she gave me this advice when I was already doing it, but I hadn't really been able to put it into words the way that she did. And so she said, self-assign. Don't wait for people to hire you to do a portrait shoot of uh the local sports teams or whatever the thing is that you're interested in. Self-assign. Decide for yourself. That's what I want to do. Approach the people that you want to photograph, or if it's not people, the the subject, and and then just do it. And you're gonna be learning a lot more from actually doing it. And it's yeah, maybe it's not gonna be the best thing of all time the first time you do it, but that is where you start.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah, interesting. You actually uh coupled the making part with the sharing part, and I think that's overlooked quite a lot in photography. And people get people get scared about making photography, but when you start adding in kind of the public side of it, like, well, you need to go and share this to kind of complete the that feedback loop. There becomes the a completely different type of intimidation. But it's interesting you mentioned it because surely that's an extremely part of the learning process, right?

Wesley:

Yeah, and I think that younger generations are probably much more comfortable with sharing because it's just part of their DNA. Uh, but there is this generation between, let's say, us and them, where maybe there was more hesitation or shyness. And of course, there are still a lot of people. Uh, when I do I do these one-on-one mentor sessions, and most of the time I would say uh one of the things that comes up is that I I have to give them some or I'm able to give them some sort of uh validation that that it's worth sharing because sometimes people are nervous and they might say, like, yeah, but I'm not, you know, I can't really approach these people, or I can't really share this because I'm not really a quote unquote real photographer. And then I have to um freedom of that notion because that's of course not true. You took the photo, you are the photographer, so you might as well just share it. Unless you don't like what you made, of course, then that's a different story. But but it's uh yeah, share it. You know, it's also I think one thing that's quite helpful is to switch your perspective that this only really goes for photos of people. But if um, if you took photos of uh a specific community or specific person, then putting it out there instead of thinking of it as like I'm putting my work out there, what you could do is you could think of like, this is a very special person that I'm interested in, and I want the rest of the world to know about them as well. So it's not about me, the photographer, it's about this person that I photographed who uh I find inspiring or beautiful or whatever the word might be that comes up. And uh it's often a lot easier to be supportive of others and and shine a light on others than it is for us to shine a light on ourselves, because that's that can feel awkward or too much or, you know.

Matt Jacob :

So I mean, how do you advise people in terms of where to start then? Because imposter syndrome is a real thing. And you say, well, if it what if you don't like your work? Well, I'd say the majority of amateurs or learning photographers, even professionals, I mean, a lot of them don't like their work, right? So how do you break down those barriers?

Wesley:

Well, I mean, I would I would be hard pressed to find someone who's been doing it at least for a while that still doesn't like their work. You know, there's gotta be a photo in there that that you like, you know. So then just share that one. And also form a community around yourself with other people who are passionate about this creative craft and sh and and get some feedback just per on a personal level, like, hey, I just did this shit. What do you think? Which one is speaking to you? And that can also build up confidence because most of the time people are kinder about your work than you are about your own work. And they see things that uh are perhaps uh muddled in your view, and they see clearly, like, oh, that's a really nice photo because the emotion uh from this photo is really reaching me. And and you who took the photo might see, like, oh, the crop is bad or the whatever, you know, the lighting is not ideal, but that's not always the most important thing. So getting some other opinions in there from just friends that they can be other photographers or hobbyists, but they can also just be friends, you know?

Matt Jacob :

Yeah, I love that because when you say the word share, it's so synonymous with social media that you think, oh well I've got to po I've got to post it. No, there's many other ways of sharing, like you said, with with those people in in your closest circle or within a community, and there are many photography clubs out there, even online forums and stuff like that, where you're gonna trust because they're they're they have a vested interest, they're in they're in the same private community as you might be, whether it's in person or online. It's not just this stupid public square where you have the risk of getting trol all the time. Um, and that's really important. Like we we have a book, we have a book club that we run every other week, and uh part of that is photocritique. Someone will put put their work up. And it's it's incredible even how me these days still have my blinkers on and not that's just the way humans are built. It's the power of someone else's perspective on someone else's work. Even for the observers as well, to sit there and go, Oh yeah, I didn't even think about it from that perspective, or I didn't even try and understand it from that person's viewpoint and how it's making them feel. That's extremely powerful that you'll never get on an Instagram post, right?

Wesley:

No, no, it's true. And and but you know, it's it's also just the more the more human approach, you know, like the the amount of time that people take to look at a photo on Instagram is like a fraction of a second. It's like and and that's not really an an ideal way to see any form of art or culture. So having something printed or just projected perhaps if you sh if that's maybe how you do it for the book club. But you know, like take a moment. It's it's not uh it's not a flash, it's a it's a it's still, you know?

Matt Jacob :

That's why I love photo books. So speaking of vote photo books, it's a beautiful segue you you let us uh let us into. Um the notice book, the your your first book, I'm I'm holding this up to the screen, but for people listening, obviously they'll have links in in the description, and then notice journal volume one. Now we're obviously not gonna like go through these books, but um first of all, before I ask you any questions about the book, when I got the the Notice book, I had this lovely little note, which I'll probably put a uh a screenshot. And this is what I love about you, Wesley, is just the lovely little personal touches because it it just shows that you are engaged with your community and with your audience, which means so much, obviously, to people who who want to um engage with you and your work. Dear Matt, I hope you enjoy these books, plus some freebies for your visual pleasure. So over-delivering. Uh warm, warm uh, warm regards from Amsterdam. So I love that. Thank you. Um notice. So we talked about you you mentioned um you mentioned uh you know, really kind of understanding and observing and being quiet with your work. And that kind of really comes comes through in this book. And I know kind of the time that you created this, uh, which I believe was in or around COVID, um, probably had a lot to do with that. But if you can, yeah, just give us an overview of this book, how it came about, and what the kind of the concept behind it is.

Wesley:

Yeah, I I created the work uh in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, um, where I was for the first five months of the pandemic. Um I was at the time doing a nomadic thing where every three months I moved to a different city in in the world, so Buenos Aires, Tokyo, Mexico City, things like that. And then city number nine was uh Vancouver. And so it was going to be three months. Uh, but after one month, COVID happened. And so uh I my my house, my stuff lived in New York because that's where I lived for a very long time. And um at the time I still did, but then when COVID happened, New York was uh very, a very bad place because of how many people were stuck on top of each other. So it was very unwise to go back to New York at that moment. So instead of doing that, I just kept extending the uh the Airbnb that I was in for that what was supposed to be a three-month period, and it ended up being almost six months because COVID took a lot longer than than originally was anticipated. Um and so this work was made in one uh relatively small neighborhood of Vancouver, a suburb really of Vancouver. And um, it was made as the the process was that I am very attached to routine. Um I'm I'm someone who has ADHD, and so what's helpful for me to keep myself steady is certain routines in my day. And because I, you know, COVID, there was nothing that I could do. I wasn't allowed to work in Canada. Um there were no there were no jobs to begin with. Uh and what could I do to hold on to for my sanity, uh, for my creativity? I I thought, okay, well, I'll just go on a very long 10K photo walk every day in this little neighborhood because that's the only yeah, that's the only place I could walk because I, you know, I didn't have a car. I couldn't, there was no bus. There's, you know, everything was closed. So it was just this little area. And and having done that for so long, I did it, and in the end, I did it for 123 days in a row. And I always did it around the same time of day, um that when the light was the most harsh. And I walked all these streets and alleys. And because it was over such a long period of time, I also was able to uh be much more closely in touch with just the season and nature. And I know I would walk by this one part where there were certain flowers earlier on, and then a few weeks later those flowers were gone and other flowers had come up, because that's how nature works in seasons, uh, because it was springtime, uh, and I got to really feel very close to like the earth, if you will, because I I could see all these things very slowly changing, and I was photographing in a in a way that was completely different from what I was used to as well. Previous to that moment, my go-to was I go to a very big, busy city, I go to the busiest part, I run around really fast, and I find interesting people that speak to me, and then I we have a conversation, I take their portrait, we we form a connection, and then I go on. Um, in this case, none of that was possible. There were no people on the street. Uh, there was no busyness because I was in a suburb. I was in what essentially, in my mind, previously would have been the most boring place I could have been for my photography. But through this routine, through this daily walk, through slowing myself down and really focusing on paying attention to the little bits of beauty and wonder that I usually would have rushed right past. Um, you know, the name of the book is Notice, because I started noticing these things that I would have usually not noticed. I wouldn't have taken the time to notice. And in that process, I really taught myself a new way to see, a new way to photograph that I was able to then take with me post-COVID into other forms of photography. And um, that's that body of work, it wasn't set out to be a book, of course, because I didn't even know how long this was going to take. But um, after a few weeks, I thought, oh, maybe um I maybe some of these, these are pretty cool. Maybe some of these could be a print because I don't have any income right now. I need to like sell something to make some money. And then a few weeks later I thought, well, I've done this long enough. Maybe this could be a little zine. And in the end, when I shipped off Lord knows how many rolls of film to my lab, um, I thought, I think there could be a book in here. And I ended up making a book uh with my friend Dan Rubin as a designer. Uh, and um, yeah, that's how this book came about. So it's it's it's culled down to uh to about 120 photos from about a body of work of 35,000 photos.

Matt Jacob :

Wow. 35,000. Yeah, it's um it certainly makes me want to notice more. That's the hope that I have. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's what it's uh it's definitely mission accomplished in in that respect. How did it really change you as a person? We talked about your ADHD and um that that part of your life in COVID must have been I mean, it was unnerving for everyone, of course. But if you're if you if you're if you have a condition like ADHD, it must have kind of amplified what to do, right? And how to keep focus and how to kind of train that attention.

Wesley:

No, actually, I thought I loved it.

Matt Jacob :

Oh, you loved it? Okay.

Wesley:

Yeah. What I didn't love was no money and my my little bit of savings going down, down, down, down, down until it was gone. Didn't love that. Everything else loved it. There was no social obligations. It was just a daily routine of making, making, making, and then coming home writing. And it was a very pleasant process for me. Again, I would. Preferred not uh having zero income. But um other than that, I actually really liked it because it was so calming because everything I did was something calm. You know, this I wasn't running around. I was walking slowly. I wasn't like rushed, I was paying attention to everything. So for me, it was actually quite lovely in that sense.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah, it sounds really lovely, apart from obviously the kind of existential worries that you had hanging over your head. But why the harsh light? Was that that was sounded like an intentional decision.

Wesley:

Yeah, I just like harsh light. Um I I like the challenge of harsh light and I like how it brings out the contrast. Um to that helps with noticing certain things. So I the way I photograph is that I I see uh I think in and I see shapes more so than uh specific uh details. And so having harsh light creates many more shapes and lines.

Matt Jacob :

And and this book, um, if you're looking just before the foreword, is dedicated to your father, who you say taught you how to see, I presume, kind of in that photographic sense and kind of teaching you photography. Um, what was that relationship with him like in those early years when it came down to the dark room and learning these skills?

Wesley:

Yeah, it was just, you know, like when you're a little boy and your father does something, then you're probably gonna think it's pretty cool. Uh and uh and my father is a very generous uh person and also uh by trade a teacher. Uh so uh it's you know, as is my mother. Um and so it was it's just a very natural um yeah, passion of his that became a passion of mine. And uh, you know, as children, I've a I have a younger sister as well, and as children, basically on weekends, what we would do is we would either go to the forests or we would go to an art thing. And our house was full of books, art books, and so it was just a very normal part of growing up in in this family, and his father uh was a painter, uh art painter. Uh so it's kind of just uh family business in a sense.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah. I love it. We're envious. And then came um Journal, sorry, Notice Journal Volume 1, which was a few years later, which you also kindly signed and wrote a message for me. Dear Matt, I hope this book brings you calm and inspiration warmly. Wesley. So tell me about the calm and inspiration and the again, the kind of the concept. I mean, this is created differently. I mean, you've got you've got half-frame shots, everything's a diptic, and um, there's a completely kind of different concept to this materially as well with the book. So kind of give us some context surrounding those types of decisions.

Wesley:

When I was uh in the editing phase of the first book, Notice, um, I, you know, one of the ways that I like to work is I like to print out uh a lot of small prints of my favorites and then put them on the floor and see like what what the narrative is that I'm that I'm kind of like getting out of that. And I noticed um that there were so many photos in that first body of work that were, I call them echoes of each other. And so that can be uh, I already mentioned I think in shape. So a lot of the time there's photos uh that are not of the same thing, but they have the same shape. Uh and you'll see if you look at notice now, every it's it's one individual photo next to a white page, followed by seven pairs. So the left image, right image is a pair. And those those pairs came together in the edit. And sometimes the pair the pairing is quite obvious. It's like a very specific shape that you that you see again in the other photo, but sometimes it's more um poetic, if you will. And so the process of doing that was so joyful. It was so fun to discover these links between photos that were taken weeks apart on a different camera, um, with no intention of matching. I loved it so much that I wanted to dive deeper into this idea of dipticks for the next book. So I shot it on half frames. So all the all the dipticks, so for people who don't know the word, that just means that there's two images side by side. Uh instead of it being two random images that I put next to each other in the edit, the whole following book was all in camera. So all of these dipticks were shot in the camera, so there was no uh there's no changing it around afterwards, which was a I'm a big, big fan of creative limitations. And and this was a big one. And I thought, oh, this is so this is so fun to do. And so I shot a ton of work for that too, because of course I'm not paying attention to which frame I'm on, so it's not like I'm intentionally shooting them to be next to each other because it's almost impossible to do that because I don't really know. You know, it's a it's an analog camera. I don't know what frame is the first frame, because it's you know, you can whine all you want, but it it sometimes you end up starting on a half, sometimes you end up starting with a full. So then the discovery joy was afterwards getting the scans back from my lab, Carmen Cita, and seeing like, oh wow, look at this pair that happened, you know? And so I was able to lean um much more into instinct and and and chance rather than uh intentional editing.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah, and honestly, I love in in terms of kind of the aesthetics. Um I mean I think they're all black and white in this one, whereas you had a few color ones in, but I love the overscans on you know, the borders just add kind of the texture and a kind of real nostalgic feel to to the diptyx. Um, yeah, I love it, I love it. I think it's really what and what a challenge. I mean, anyone listening, that's a that's a challenge for you. Go it go and do that. Um, I certainly won't be attempting it. The book wise is is something that um I I believe you're still working on. I think uh you know most established photographers want to kind of continue putting their work to a way of sharing as well as potentially a way of making money, depending on which side of the fence you sit on with publishing. But um you working on anything at the moment, like a a next book? I mean, this was what I notice journal one was a year ago, or was it last year?

Wesley:

Uh it was November November of last year. Yes. Yes. Um and um and yeah, right now I'm working on a next book. I I also have this e-book series that I do that is more related to my newsletter process. And so those are more workbooks. So actually on Sunday, the fourth uh volume of the process workbook series comes out. And that volume is uh usually the first three have been about prompts and challenges that photographers can take and kind of like free themselves of their own kind of like mind just to make rather than think. This next one that comes out on Sunday is actually a um uh a distillation of my personal process that I've refined over the last 10 years uh for reviewing my past year and setting goals for my following year. So that comes out on Sunday. Um quite excited about that because yeah, I've been doing it myself for 10 years and I I get so much out of it, and there are people that were interested, and so I turned it into kind of a simplified system that anyone can do. Great.

Matt Jacob :

Well, watch out for that. But this um this episode will go out after that. So just for date wise, 21st of December, that would have completed. It doesn't really matter when you start.

Wesley:

That's also part of the book. Like you don't have to start on January 1st, it's just for the coming year and the previous year. It's you know, we make we make our own rules. So if you want to do it from March 1st to March 1st, that also works. There's no difference really.

Matt Jacob :

Okay. And when where can people find this?

Wesley:

Uh that will be just on my webshop on Wesley.co uh or through the newsletter, you can find it there too. If you're a if you're a member, uh if you're a paying member of the newsletter, it's actually a perk that comes to you for free. And if you're not a paying member, you can just buy it uh as a as a standalone piece.

Matt Jacob :

Okay, cool. And yeah, sorry, the photo book you're working on at the moment?

Wesley:

Oh, the next photo book that I'm working on is also diptychs, uh, also shot on half-frame, uh, this time black and white as well as color. Uh and that I photographed uh this past summer in Ukraine. Uh and uh I'm very, very excited about this work. I think it's um the my most meaningful and interesting work yet. Uh and I I'm very excited to get it into uh into a book shape. It's not about uh war. It's no uh there's no violence, there's no um destruction or anything like that. Uh it is about um the the the beauty and the power that lays in the persistence of regular life during war. Uh so it's it's it's more about family rituals and and the and everyday life that happens to be happening during war, and therefore it's a form of resistance, but there's no you know, guns or destruction that is is visible in these photos.

Matt Jacob :

Wow, fascinating. We we look forward to seeing that. How how do you even for those that that are are interested in a project like that, which sounds an extremely kind of um interesting take on that part of that region of the world, uh how do you even go about kind of ideation and and drawing out the concept for this and even logistics, like setting this up? And do you have do you have guides and people on the ground that help you, or is it just you go to Ukraine, you land, you walk around, see what you find?

Wesley:

No, no. Um no, once again, I I'm spoiled because of personal connections, but um I think I think the lesson here is really um actually let me tell this story. Uh there's a move that I love that really speaks to this. There's this movie director called Robert Rodriguez, and maybe people know him. He's done some work with Quentin Tarantino, I think, from Dustal Dawn might have been one of his movies, but don't quote me on that. Uh, but he's a very interesting, independent movie director who's also done some big films. And he said that the way him and his friends made their first films was that they made a list of the things that they had, that they had access to. They had a friend with a restaurant, they had a friend with a with a bus, whatever. And then they looked at what they had and then based on that, made something. Rather than having some grand plan and then trying to see if they can get all the things that they need to do to the project, they just looked at what they had. And and in in the case of my first book, Notice, well, what I had was a pandemic and nothing to do, and a beautiful, quiet, slash boring neighborhood that I needed to like get something out of. What I had with the second book, uh, the the volume one that you have there, is there I was going through major life changes. I was I moved continents, I moved to Amsterdam during the beginning of this book, and I had a major uh romantic relationship end. So there was a lot going on for me. And so that book, where the first book was uh perhaps um, let's say meditation, the second book was more therapy for myself. So that was me walking around this new city, new to me city, Amsterdam, and processing my feelings, processing these big life changes. And the work that I made reflects that, but not literally. You know, it's it's a it's like my brain in that state and what it notices, and that's what I'm documenting. For this next book in Ukraine, my partner is from Ukraine. So I had all the access that uh one could wish for, and everybody was very kind about it. So there wasn't any it's what I had, and that's what I'm working with, you know.

Matt Jacob :

Great lesson for people who kind of o can overthink photography too much. Well, I need to tell you, I was talking with Jesse Lenz on the pod the the other day, and he was you know saying something similar and in in in terms of just use what you have. There's magic all around you. Wherever you you might be, you don't have to get on a plane to go to some magical destination. There is magic in life you've just got to notice without kind of excuse the pun. And um what he looks for in artists, and I'm I'm sure you might uh resonate with this, but when he's looking at other artists to potentially publish, he talks about spotting the artists that are obsessed with life and just happen to have a camera on them to try and document it in their own self-expressive way, rather than trying to create that obsession out of photography and then trying to fit a story or something into the camera that way. And I I think that was a really kind of important eye-opener for for me. Um, and it sounds like that's kind of exactly what you've done with Ukraine. You have this kind of obsession with just these these noticing and I can't help but use that word because it's right in front of me, but noticing and observing these little not little things, but these kind of nuanced areas of life that often get overlooked or in potentially this case Ukraine, overlooked or not really aware of or forgotten about, right? We always focus on the kind of the the the the dramatic and front end side of things without looking at those more quiet um introspective areas of whatever's left behind or the small things that we forget to notice and observe in the hustle and bustle of daily life. So that was really, really excited to to hear about that project.

Wesley:

When so when do you plan on getting that book out there into the I'm not I haven't picked the date yet, but uh I'm thinking it I might wait till fall, like September or something. Uh I could do it sooner, but there's there are reasons why that might be a better time for it. Um I want to add one more thing um that I think it speaks to what you were just saying that might also be valuable is uh you already mentioned overthinking. And I think that's something that, you know, I I think if we if we can generalize, most people who are really into photography as a hobby and also as a job tend to be um on the introspective um end, uh on the on the more perhaps um introverted even end. And so we have a tendency to overthink, and especially when we start comparing ourselves to others um who are further ahead in that in that journey. And I think it's good to point out that for all three of those books that I mentioned, there was no plan. I was not making a book. I was following my curiosity, I was make I was observing and documenting and capturing, and I was, but that's a way for me to be in the moment. It's a way for me to uh to notice things because without a camera, I might be dreaming off, you know? And so none of these projects start as I'm going to make a book about whatever, you know. It's just that I'm making this work, and sometimes the work tells me that it wants to be a book uh after I've made it. You know, it's not it's not like I plan to do a project and then think ahead, like what should I get? What would be what would make it a good book? I don't I don't work like that. Maybe some people do, but I think most people don't. I think it prevents you like that kind of thinking prevents you from really being in the moment and and following your curiosity because then you're just you're looking for something that you've imagined already rather than paying attention to what there is in front of you.

Matt Jacob :

100%. I don't think I think most I think that the top echelons who have got potentially commercial um not pressure, but maybe some incentives there that will kind of push some stuff out or go and create for the purpose of selling a book or exhibiting something. But yeah, I think the majority of us don't really know what we're making. And that's the beauty of the edit as well. And I think we often overlook the power of an edit. We look back at photos from two, three, four years ago or just a few months ago, whatever, and we have that different perspective, then we start like you did with with your books, like we start aligning, start seeing patterns and rhythm, and and then something starts to emerge. Oh, there might actually be something here. So I think it can give people faith rather than just thinking, I aim walking, I'm walking around aimlessly, not really knowing what I'm doing. But um speaking of uh a bit more structure and planning, um your writing career and and and you know the the huge presence and the I guess the beautiful chain of articles and and write creative writing that you've done on Substack, and I'm not sure before that, before Substack existed, but um that this kind of is more form-based and it's more narrative-based, I I guess. When you seem to write as deeply as you photograph, which obviously makes sense, but how has your experience with books and photographs helped or influenced your relationship with writing, or is it kind of the other way around? But I I imagine photography came first.

Wesley:

Yes, I think it did come first, but in the end it's all the same. It's telling a story, right? And so whether you're writing or making a film or taking a photo, uh, you're telling a story. And so for me, um the the newsletter is and newsletter is such a weird word because it's not like I'm sending out news. You know, it's like it's it's about the process of photography and the process of the work and and how it happens and why and all that kind of stuff. And so for me, writing it down, um it what number one, it it my mission to demystify the craft and the business of photography is helped by doing the newsletter. Number two, it helps me crystallize my thoughts and realize certain things that if they're just in my head, they're more vague. So if I write them down, it becomes more clear to myself as well. Uh and number three, it's also so much more fun in terms of building a an a relationship with people who appreciate my work because it's a very different time investment. I put a lot of time into it, and it's not, they're not super short newsletters. So you have to also put a little bit of time into reading it, and it comes out once a week. Obviously, you don't have to read each one of them, but most people I think do. Uh, and then you you have a much more rich uh relationship between yourself and the people who appreciate the work because they know more. And uh I get to know more about them too, because I get lots of uh notes from from readers uh with personal things, uh whether it's about the craft or just their life, and it's just so much more rich and human of an experience in terms of like making and sharing work than than social media is.

Matt Jacob :

100%. Well, how how if you could put your finger on what's worked then? I mean, if you look at the the stats you have over 12,000. I mean, you've I think you've got more than that now. I think 50. 19 now 19. Tell me the secret 90,000 people over however many hundreds of countries. Uh 145 countries. 145.

Wesley:

I just had the right, I just looked this up for for for someone, so I happy to know it.

Matt Jacob :

You know it off by heart every day and love it. Um 19,000 people over 145 countries read your uh newsletters, your Substack articles. Uh what have what do you think you've done right? And what do you think people resonate with most about what stories you're you're telling, what insights you're giving?

Wesley:

Uh I think I think you know they always say that consistency is uh is really important and and you you know my my newsletter comes out every Sunday morning and it is a consistent habit for me, also because I can't really do things a little bit. You know, I have to I if I don't do it weekly, it becomes very difficult for me to do it because I'm not in the rhythm. Um and I think um what people appreciate about it, I I'm I I know that people appreciate getting that little bit of uh lifting of the veil and getting to see like just the basics of how things how things come together. And and uh I have I've got it, I've gotten a lot of really sweet notes from people that said that reading the newsletter partially is educational, but it's also partially empowering because they feel, and this is my whole goal, they feel, you know what, I can also do something like this, even if it's a small like maybe not a fancy linen-bound hardcover photo book, but I can make a little zine and and I show all the steps and and I, you know, basically there's like three parts to most newsletters for me. It's like, here, here's something I made, number one, here's how I made it, number two, and then the the quietly screamed part is, and you can do it too. That's the whole idea. I don't say it like that, but that's in every part of the newsletter that, you know, if you would like to do a photo series about people that you find interesting, or if you would like to make something printed, whether it's on the wall or a little book or a little zine for for cheap, here's how to do it. Go go ahead. Do it. And so I've gotten quite a few books in the mail or zines or prints from people who said, Hey, thanks so much. I was inspired by by you to do this thing, and uh I w I was nervous about it, but now I did it and now I like it, you know?

Matt Jacob :

I love that. And that's that again, that feedback, Luke. It's almost sharing your thoughts and tips and what you've learned along the way and and having that come back to you in in that sense of because I get I get the odd message here and there as well, just from the podcast, and it means the world to me. And I'm sure it's extremely fulfilling to you on a on a larger scale. But um it's not the reason one does it, I guess, but you know, to know that you've reached people and helped people, it's extremely gratifying, isn't it?

Wesley:

Yeah, very much so. And it keeps you going because it's like I said, it I'm sure for you as well, a lot of time goes into it. And it's not necessarily like um economically smart uh in in in that sense. But if people get a lot out of it and hopefully also, you know, enough people sign up to be a paying news member so that it can keep going, um those messages, even if someone can't financially contribute, those messages mean the world.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah. Yeah. And where where do your where does the ideation come from? Do you kind of you you plan this way ahead of time, the time in terms of what topics and what you're gonna write about each week? Because if you're committing to every Sunday, that's that's you know, I know how much work it is. So what's your process behind process? Talk to me about your process.

Wesley:

Well, I I I'm just writing about what I'm doing. So it's not like I have, you know, uh sometimes things are planned out because I I have a plan to make a certain project a certain time or a particular kind of shoot. But sometimes uh I just write it uh the week, you know, like the day before because um I was too busy that week, but there was something that I wanted to share. So there's I mean, I I've been doing this for a long time, so there's always something that I can write about or share. Um, and you know, I've been a full full-time photographer professionally now for yeah, probably about 10 years. And um before that, uh I worked in music, so I worked in the arts as well. So there's still like lessons from then that I can still pass on as well. And so we're this week will be issue 224 of uh the newsletter, and it's been 50 issues this year. Uh, you know, I'm taking Christmas uh off. I can always say more, you know?

Matt Jacob :

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how's the the looking back on I guess what four years, what 224 issues, how's this do you feel impacted you as a photographer purely on the photography side? And it it must have helped in some sense, but how specifically?

Wesley:

Like on a on a creative level, you mean?

Matt Jacob :

Or yeah, on just be I guess just being a better photographer has kind of you know this endeavor of being uh a writer um every week. What is it taught you or helped you with in terms of photography?

Wesley:

I think it's what I said earlier, which is like by writing it down, it becomes more clear to myself. And um I I also pay attention to things in a different way now because I know that if I'm if I'm learning a little lesson here and there out of shoot, I would like to pass that on. So I guess it it's led to me being more intentional with my documentation and more uh observant with um with what I'm working on.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah, it's one of those, I can't remember who's where I read it, but does writing help you see or do you write to understand what you've seen? And usually we fall on kind of one of those sides of the question. But uh there was there was one article I've read many of yours, but there was there was something that I don't know, it must have been this year sometime, but it was um the starting versus beginning. This was something because I I I speak to a lot of I guess beginner photographers, but people who are, I guess, doing it in an amateur fashion or as a hobby and want to kind of just get better or take it further or potentially explore ways to, you know, um, I guess take it commercially or to find some kind of profession in it. And this thing of like starting and beginning, the difference between that really kind of hit home for me and the difference between starting and beginning exactly the the the fine line that might be the difference or the differentiator between one or the other. Can you kind of ex can you remember? I'm sure you remember right here, but can you explain this uh concept for us? Because it I think it's fascinating.

Wesley:

Yeah, I think um the I think there is the easiest way to think about it is that um we we can get a bit too much in our heads, which which we've said a few times now already, uh, because it's extremely true. Uh and so there's a difference between um thinking about starting to run and buying uh the best, like doing the research to get the best running shoe and and uh finding like uh a the best coach or whatever. Like that's that's one thing, but you can also just do it. You know, you can also just actually take the first step, go outside on whatever running shoes you have right now, and just begin, you know? Uh I mean, just start. And and then you then you will learn what you need more than doing all the all the research beforehand and planning and setting things up. And and and that's kind of like, you know, not to use uh a marketing slogan from a uh shoe company, but it's just just do it. You know, like just go ahead and do the thing. And then learn as you go, pay attention, uh, change things. Like, you know, you don't need the most expensive camera. Whatever camera you have, even if it's your phone, just start. And then you learn, and then you also learn more about what you want and what you need. And you, you know, maybe in your mind you've seen all these videos about the Pentac 672, and you're like, yeah, that's the camera I want. But uh if you start saving up for that, you might discover later that you're more of a you know, viewfinder down below kind of person, and you should have gotten the RZ. You could have discovered that by just doing it, you know, rather than thinking about it.

Matt Jacob :

Pentac 67. Well, the the the RZ67 or Pentax both beautiful, beautiful cameras. Um but yeah, you I don't think you can go wrong with starting those. But do you think this is a generational thing these days with being, I guess, distracted with or I guess living in a life of abundance, right? Certainly in Western culture where we can just basically get anything we want if we can afford it. It's order in what stream anything we want, shop for anything we want at the click of a button. Do you think then that this is kind of a generational thing that we've seen where we're almost addicted to starting things rather than actually like new ideas, new tools without ever actually beginning? Have you noticed that?

Wesley:

Yeah, I mean it could that's a good that's a good question. Um it sounds plausible. Uh I know that there, you know, I have a lot of teachers in my uh family and and friend group, and I do hear um often these days that there is more fear to be um to not be perfect or like to be ridiculed or to be you know bullied or because and that will make you clam up and not just loosely try things because in your mind, you know, if you put something on the internet, all of a sudden people might say something mean, which is totally true, unfortunately. Um and hard to deal with, I imagine, when you're 14. You know? I mean it's hard to deal with when you're 50. Uh it it's but especially when you're so vulnerable and young still. So I mean it's uh it sounds plausible to me. I could see that.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah. But when when we think about trends then and kind of like this starting and uh starting things without actually like beginning things and throwing in social media and the the social pressures we have, especially as youngsters? How does anyone kind of navigate that to uh I don't want to throw in a cliche like finding one's voice, but how do we how do we go about kind of finding out what photography means to us or or what we want to say, I guess, through photography um by cutting through all that noise? Is it just well just pick something up and go out and do it until you figure it out?

Wesley:

Well, just whatever it is that you're curious about. Like if you already have chosen photography uh as your as your passion right now, then what are you curious about? Go do that. You know, like are you a person who's very interested in people? Okay, then go in your hometown, go photograph people. Maybe you can uh you know, my father just put out his latest photo book, and it is just portraits of people from his village. Uh and um because that's what he's interested in. He's deeply curious about people, and he lives in a small rural village with my with my mom, and uh he just has been walking around for 25 years taking pictures of everyone, basically. And so that's this that's that's what he's interested in. You know, maybe some people are are more specific in their interests, maybe in addition to uh wanting to do photography, maybe you're really passionate about horses and horse riding. Okay, take your camera, go to the horse riding place and like take photos of the horses or of the people riding the horses. Whatever it is that you're curious and passionate about, I say that's the thing that you should go and do. And don't worry about, oh, that's already been done because everything's been done. Don't worry about, yeah, but I'm not a quote unquote real photographer. It doesn't matter. No one ever really thinks that about you anyway. You know, don't worry about is there a is there uh money in this or is there commercially interesting, like does anyone care about these photos? It doesn't matter. You care about this topic and you want to take photos, go take the photos. You know, that and people will be into it because if you're so passionate about it and so so curious and so um engaged with the topic, then it will be a better photo.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah, it comes through in the in the photos and it comes through in everything you you present with it. Um it's almost like that find find what you love, follow what you love, and you'll end up knowing it. Right. And it's that kind of that curiosity with a understanding or recognizing what you love, or what you okay, what you're interested in, but that what you really are interested in. And they talk writing and acting and stand-up and uh all of those kind of artistic pursuits, they they say the same thing, like writing a screenplay, start with start with what you love, you end up knowing it, and then you write what you know. Um, have you ever caught yourself drifting though? Like, I mean, I if I look at these books that I have and uh I've seen a lot of your work online, I mean that's they're they're kind of different in aesthetics a little bit, but I would definitely say, you know, you have a you have a the style's one thing, but you definitely have a voice. What would you kind of um say that is? And have you ever had to kind of realign that or kind of check back in itself, say, oh, this is not me, I'm not actually interested in it. Why am I why I'm why am I drifting? Have you ever had those kind of moments?

Wesley:

Um I think not so much with personal work, but I I have had moments where I would take on client jobs um for I mean, sometimes I just had to for financial reasons, you know, especially post-COVID when I just had to take on whatever. Um, but it I take much better photos if I'm actually into the thing. Um and so there are types of photography that I'm not that into, but I have taken jobs for financial reasons to do it, and it's been uh pretty gratifying to slowly get out of that COVID uh hole and be able to remember uh, oh yeah, I don't have to do this particular job because I actually don't like this kind of photography, and I'm not very good at it. Um I can say no to this one. I can pass it on to a to a friend or colleague who who does love that kind of photography, and they'll it'll get better results for them as well. Um so for me, it's I could see it in in the in the client work more so than the personal work. The personal work I I I'm already only following my passion and my and my curiosity to the topic. So it's rare that I I I mean, I can't even think of a single example where I started on something that I was like, oh, I'm actually not that interested in this. Because I'm a I'm only starting it because I'm interested in it.

Matt Jacob :

How would you sum that up though, in terms of what you are interested in and what type of work you want to produce?

Wesley:

I know that's you I'm not asking you to generalize, but if you give me a lot of people, I I I basically have two sides to to my to my personal work. Uh one is fine art, which is uh examples are the books that you have there. Another thing is uh what I've started this year I've started calling this um um community documentary projects. So I am deeply curious about people like my father. And I'm specifically curious uh not only in individuals, but in interesting communities uh and and why they do what they do, what what the community as a whole is like as as one organism. And so my very first uh big project was I started it in 2013 and uh and it took about a year and a half to make, and it was called one of many. And for that project, uh again, there was no plan, but I was just following my curiosity. For that project, I went to 12 different uh cities in the United States that were not New York, LA, or San Francisco, which are especially at the time the perceived centers of culture. And I went to these 12 other kind of like, let's call them B cities. That's not really fair to call them that, but for the context of explaining this, uh, and I went there to photograph the creative communities and and basically say, like, hey, what is the creative community like in uh let's say Savannah, Georgia, or Detroit? And why do you live here and not in New York? Uh and and again, for context, this is 2013-14 when, yeah, of course there was internet, but now you can kind of live anywhere, sort of, depending on what you do. But then it was still very much like if you want to get certain kinds of jobs, you kind of have to live in New York or LA. And so I was curious, oh, you live in these places. Why is that? And what do you do here? And what is the community like here? And so in these 12 cities, I did portraits of about 50 creatives per city. So that's about 600 people total. Uh, and that became this huge project. That was the first one I did of this kind. The most recent one I've done was this year in Amsterdam, where I was curious about a community that I myself am part of, which is the English language comedy community of Amsterdam, not as not a city where English is the is the first language, right? And so it's very interesting because this community is huge, extremely uh good at what they do, and globally known, except here. So there are people that um that trained here and lived here for years that are now huge stars, like Seth Myers, who has his own television show in the United States, his talk show, and he was for years the head writer of Saturday Night Live, or uh Jordan Peel, who is now a famous director and of course was an amazing sketch comedian in Keen Peel. He was also he lived here for a few years and got trained here. Um, you know, the the TV show Tet Lasso, maybe people have heard of that one. The creators of that show created that character years ago in Amsterdam, and they lived here and they performed here and they learned the craft here. And so those are all people from the past who are huge, but there is currently an even bigger explosion of amazing talent from all over the world that just happens to live here. And I thought, well, what an interesting group of people to photograph. And so I photographed 101 of them uh across a two-day massive uh monster studio session, and we made it into a zine. And we had a big uh lawn show for it where with performances, and we got into like the local newspaper, the local um television programs. So the whole mission was to shine a light on on this community and how special it is, but somehow under the radar locally. And so that's what I love doing, the the these documentary projects about communities. And so I'm now prepping for the next two or three for the coming year. Uh and it's always about like numbers, like at least a hundred people from a community. Like I like overdoing it. I like I like making projects where people think, oh boy, I couldn't even start to think to do that because it's so much work. But I really love that.

Matt Jacob :

Amazing. And you mentioned. Comedy, um, you've taken up uh well, I say taken up, I I I gather it's a relatively new thing, but unstaged improvised comedy. Tell tell us a little bit about that. What inspired it? Where where did that come from? Has it always been a thing that you've wanted to do? Uh not really.

Wesley:

I was always into comedy, more mostly stand-up comedy, and that's not what I do. I do improv comedy, improvised comedy. Um, but you know, I lived in New York for 20 years, and that's of course also a big city for comedy. And um I moved to Amsterdam in the summer of 2020, COVID. So everything was closed. I I really couldn't find much work, so I had a lot of time on my hands, and the the only thing that wasn't closed was educational things. And so I signed up for uh an improv comedy uh taster class, is they call it a one-time three hours, um, and was completely taken by it. It works extremely well with my ADHD brain. I make a lot of very fast lateral connections that you that are just strange, and so that works on stage. And so I took this taster class and then it got a little bit out of control, and I did like the two different full curriculums at the same time over the course of a year, and uh just like really embrace it and really love it. And and I ended up getting cast on uh on the house team of uh of the biggest theater that's here in Amsterdam for English language improv comedy. And I was on that team for four or five seasons, and then in the meantime, that that community has grown so much that now we have more theaters, and I perform with a few different groups uh a few times a week in in different places, also in other countries, but mostly here.

Matt Jacob :

Wow, fascinating. Um has has that uh how has that impacted your photography, uh if at all? I mean, they seem to be separate endeavors completely, but um I know that you you've you've you mentioned that uh or I've seen some short films that you're doing. Is that part of kind of your creative side as well with the with the humor?

Wesley:

Yeah, it's um it's actually helped photography a lot, uh, not so much on a technical level, but uh if you're if you continuously get thrown on stage with zero preparation and and you're supposed to make something fun out of it, because that's what for people who don't know what improv comedy is, you go on stage with a small group of people, let's say four or five people, and then you uh say hello to the audience, and then you ask the audience for a completely random suggestion. Some nights we might ask for a random object. Some nights uh we might ask for a location that fits on that stage that we're on. Some nights we might uh ask for a relationship like mother-daughter, and then they they yell a bunch of stuff out. We pick one, the lights go out, the lights come up, and we start and do a one-hour play based on that one-word suggestion. So there's there's no time for thinking. It's pure uh instinct and and reacting and being totally in the moment and really listening to your fellow actors so that so that it feels true. Uh, and that's where the funny is in the things that are true and honest. And so with that experience, it's very hard to get me perturbed on set as a photographer because you know, you you throw something at me. I'm now used to immediately reacting and and coming up with a solution, and I'm not uh so I'm not nervous about it. So it's actually helped quite a bit in that sense.

Matt Jacob :

And you're doing some type of short films in the same community, or is that separate?

Wesley:

Well, so I this year I started doing I've always wanted every photographer wants to be a filmmaker, and every filmmaker wants to be a photographer, right? And so I've always wanted to make films. And um now that I'm such a part of this community of of actors, because most improvisers also might have a stand-up comedy side or an acting side. Um now I've this year I started putting these worlds together, my photography uh world and my comedy world. And so I'm taking the opportunity to pull in all these wonderful talents and make these short films uh that that are basically about an exaggerated version of me, like the photographer me, uh, and um and and and little stories that happen around me, and we turned them into these little shorts. And that's been very fun. Today, actually, right after this, we're shooting the sixth uh and and final episode of of this season that I've been working on for this little project. Uh, and uh it's just been so much fun, and people are really responding to it, so that's even uh even more gratifying. So it it brings the photography and the comedy together because I am me, an exaggerated version of me, and I am taking photos, but then there's all these weird things that happen.

Matt Jacob :

Yeah, I'd love to, I'd love to see that. I'd love to uh to see that one day. Maybe next time I'm in Amsterdam, I'll I'll give you a shout. Um, Wesley, it's uh it's been an absolute pleasure. I wish you, I know you've got to go and shoot this this film as well. So I'll let you go. And uh I just want to thank you again for your time. I'll continue to be a Substack fan, uh photographic fan, and maybe one day a comedy fan of yours. Um but uh until then, um take good care of yourself. Thank you so much for joining me.

Wesley:

Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation.

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